Shadwell Robert (Cornahir Outlaw ancestor)

[jamshundred]

Update for those interested in using existing semen. .. or who have Dexters with Cornahir Outlaw in the pedigree.


Semen from 9 early AI bulls from England was submitted to UC Davis for evaluation of proportion of Genotype Membership ( "q" value.   8 of the 10 bulls were greater than .09.  These were bulls whose pedigrees showed no upgrading or outcrossing from foundation.    One bull was 0.885  ( Melbry Duster). The 10th bull was Shadwell Robert.  His "q" value was .36, and the report stated, " there is no question that Shadwell Robert is a crossbred".

Shadwell Robert is dominant in the five line generation of ancestors for Cornahir Outlaw as a maternal and paternal gr-gr grandparent as well as a couple of lines previous.

Shadwell Robert is also present in the ancestor lines of the imported bull, Lucifer of Knotting descended from the English "experimental" breeding program

PS.   Since you seem unsure of history, as if it only applies to Dexters, let me remind YOU, that every breed of cattle that grazes the hills and plains and scatters manure,  BEGAN with animals of unknown parentage,  EVERY breed.  

[cascade]

Can you please share the exact test results?


Keep in mind that all Dexters descend from non-dexters, so, NO Dexter's are absolutely pure.

Purebreeding is a multi-generation process of selecting toward breed traits and culling out traits that don't meet the breed standard.

All Dexters started as impure, and breeders work toward purity over the generations. Impurities are easily bred out over several generations.

Shadwell Robert was born over a half century ago. He is ancient history. Nobody is breeding out of him today.

Run the test on his great great great grandsons that people are using today, and you'll see that those descendents have been purified.

[jamshundred]

LOL and ROFLOL !!!

If you have so little respect for the process of registration and pedigree records which IS an intended process to maintain the purity of a breed, WHY in the hell do you bother?  And why are you raising a breed of which you have so little respect?   Or is it that you discovered too late, (because the association and registry LIED and DECEIVED its members- and whose disrespected mission statement was " To protect the purity of Dexter cattle"). Left YOU holding the bag and field full of descendants  of......not a full blood, not a purebred, but a GRADE bull, that you keep desperately trying to make it be okay by going against the standards of livestock breeders since the first breeds were organized.  

If the pedigrees do not matter, than the marketing of them should cease.  According to you they are one big FRAUD. Well, for sure your's are.  You are right about that.  Mores the pity

[cascade]

No Dexters have 100% complete pedigrees back to herdbook #1 in Dublin. They all have some old holes. Genetics science tells us that isn't a problem.

A four generation pedigree is a useful tool, but anything beyond 4 generations doesn't matter much. Each generation, an average of 50% of an ancestor's genes are lost... Under appropriate selection, it can be even more than that.

[jamshundred]

Gerald Fry, one of the best known breeders of cattle in the US,  researcher, and observer, does not mirror that OPINION of yours Kirk, and even the breeders in this breed do not.  It's propaganda.

Ever heard, " if you want to get back udders, use Lucifer animals".   Well, if the traits Lucifer brought to this breed were supposed to disappear in FOUR generations, why do we still have red, dairy traits, and AGGRESSIVE personalities descending from him?    And WHY do we still have those mysterious brown faces on Cornahir Outlaw descendants?   Still trying to figure out where those light colored mealy mouths are coming from too.   

[cascade]

It's a genetics fact that on average, 50% of an ancestors' genetics are washed out each generation. No opinions are needed.

It takes a skilled breeder to try to force a trait to be consistently carried down through the generations from an ancestor. It takes great ongoing selection effort and linebreeding techniques to try to force one or two of an ancestors' traits to flow down through the generations. Having Lucifer far back on the pedigree, won't magically give you good dairy traits unless the breeders have very specifically selected for those traits each generation.

Most bulls out of dairy herds are unpredictable, because the young baby bulls are separated from their mothers who are being milked. Young bulls learn to be respectful by being raised in a natural herd setting.

The mealy mouth pattern, and the dark face pattern comes from the Aurochs ancestor of all cattle. Those genes are in a certain percentage of all cattle, but they can't exhibit in black cattle (ED) and can't exhibit in true-red (e/e) cattle. They can only exhibit in wild type red (E+) animals.

Judy, you likely have some of those dark-face mealy-mouth genes in your herd in your black animals where those genes remain hidden until you have an E+ red calf.

[lonecowhand]

Interesting that while you espouse the opinion that traits are "washed out" in just four generations, you can still pull mealy- mouthed genes from an extinct line of Aurochs early cattle in the same sentence.

How many generations since those genes?

Pick a side, stay on it!!!

[jamshundred]

That's an excellent point cowboy! 

[lonecowhand]

Thanks Pardner!

[cascade]

If you have a herd of 100 pure Dexters, all 100 of them have Aurochs ancestors. Breeding those 100 Dexter's together, won't wash out the Aurochs ancestry, because all 100 have that ancestry.

If you have a herd of 99 pure Dexters, along with 1 Dexter that is 3% jersey, you can use the purebred Dexter genetics, to wash out the Jersey genetics.

[jamshundred]

How long before the dark faces, "jersey" udders, percentage of large bull calves, and male animals that grow to large heights rather quickly, nasty tempers and in a few cases, absolute nut cases move on?  Still happening!  Told about a newbie that had to pull a large bull calf from a modern breeding yesterday.

[cascade]

All those negative features are found sprinkled throughout the purest of pure Dexters.

Continual culling of negative features will reduce the occurrence.

[liberty]

Wow, I wonder, I would love to look at the documents on the genealogy of cows. I have never contacted this and I would like to try to figure it out.

[cannenbera]

Yes, it's funny, but a lot of time has passed, and including, I advise you to really do it, if you are interested in the end. And listen, everyone has already forgotten about it. In general, it is interesting. All good.