Dexter Cattle *ARE* a breed of dwarf cattle

[jamshundred]

Over the years there have been many who posited a theory otherwise.  I always knew they were wrong, others knew they were wrong, but NO ONE . . . . . . . not a single person . . .. . .  .in the 1/4 century I've admired Dexter cattle has anyone take the early writings of the Royal Dublin Society and PROVEN it, like Karrie Winebrenner has just done.   This is simply a spendid presentation. 

  

- The part that most interests me is towards the end where they are discussing the build.



It is surprising to me how much they got right. The data is there, but they just couldn't get it to fit into their mendelian model, as they thought it would. They knew something was unknown, and of course, we now know that what they didn't know was - chondro.



They got the part that in breeding 2 Dexters (the short, thick type of Kerry) you got 2 Dexters, 1 Kerry & deformed calves of between 25 -50%.



(This would be after the Kerry breed was split with tall type identified as true Kerry & short/thick type now separated unto itself & called Dexter.



So essentially, they were breeding "Very dwarfed" to "Very dwarfed" & getting just what we know would be fact today & expected - half dwarfed/ 1/4 Kerry type/ & a great number of deformed calves.



This totally blows the “true-short theory" out of the water. Breeding “true-shorts” would not give the different types. (1 Kerry, 2 Dexters, and 1 deformed.) They would all be - as Kirk loves to claim, "all shorts as the breed description requires". But this is not what the scientific data shows.



And to get these numbers as recorded, then ALL of the breeding population must have been chondro. The whole herd - Both males & females. Anything less could not have produced such a high rate of deformed calves. This describes a breeding herd made up of only (very dwarfed) chondro positive Dexters



This is further reinforced by statement: "breeding Dexter to Kerry; gives 8 Kerry type offspring & 8 Dexter" - The same number of Dexters but instead of 4 Kerry & 4 deformed calves, we have 8 Kerry. - The breeding practice recommended today.



They also speak of the Dexter breed languishing after the Registry split the breeds.

Forced to breed Dexters only to Dexters instead of how they had always done in the past - to Kerries. Too many deformed offspring were happening.



Now they ALL knew what the breeders in Kerry had always known - disaster.



(I had noticed the numbers dropping off in the herdbooks.) It makes sense that they were dealing with these issues & this would become a put off from the breed. (Historically the farmers in Kerry knew how to easily avoid this issue - Breed the Dexter cow to the Kerry bull.... but this option was taken away)

With no knowledge of Chondro, they were doing what they thought was best - Breeding the truest forms - "Very dwarfed" to "Very dwarfed".



No other statement can be made - The Dexter breed is indeed based on Chondro gene. And that not "possibly a few", of "maybe some". But that ALL of the foundation Dexters were indeed Chondro positive. The figures/numbers prove it! There is no other way.



I love the photos of the calves born to Dexter parents. (These were not included in this copy of the article. I have posted here so everyone may see, including the link to other copy for your own research/records.) archive.org/.../scientificprocee12190910.../page/n11



Labeled - 1 Kerry & 1 Dexter. They are exactly what we have in our fields today. Chondro calf / non-chondro



Karrie

- I am very excited to read in black & white (and with a time stamp) what many of us have said for YEARS in answer to people saying that chondro was not a significant part of the breed.

The analysis and excerpts are from the Royal Dublin Society pamplet presentation on Kerry/Dexter cattle.  NOTE ! !  ( There is a limit to attachments so the photos are below and the link in the article above does not work).

[jamshundred]

Here are the photos from the article



top photo - Fig. 1. A Dexter Calf from Dexter parents.

bottom - Fig. 2. A Kerry Calf from Dexter parents.

[cascade]

Dexters as a breed were founded in 1890 by the Royal Dublin Society. The breed description and breed registration rules were published in the Royal Dublin Society Dexter Herdbook.. The Dexter cattle breed was defined as a true-breeding breed of 100% short and beefy cattle with 100% short beefy legs. (No mention of the three different body types, including dead monster calves, associated with chondrodysplasia).

Any cattle of any breed were allowed to become foundation "Dexters" upon inspection as long as they visually met the 1890 Irish Dexter breed description (red or black, compact, short and beefy (horns optional).

This allowed all sorts of animals from all sorts of backgrounds to become foundation "Dexters". Yes, some had a good amount of Kerry blood, but there were many other breeds mixed in. Some would have had chondrodysplasia, but many would have been naturally short and beefy without chondrodysplasia.


The breed standard said ALL Dexters must be short and beefy, so the chondrodysplastic animals weren't true Dexters because they couldn't breed true to breed standards and they would have dead calves. Chondrodysplasia was a problem to be solved.

A Royal Dublin Society paper published in 1909 said that the chondro animals were hybrids (which they are because they are always heterozygous) and said that pure Dexters breed true for their shortness, with no misshaped calves.



True purebred Dexters breed true for their short legs and beefy builds. 

[cddexter]

Judy, 

Dr. Leo Curran, published sometime in the late '80s-ish, and republished in the Dexter Cattle Society Bulletin, thought there were six different types of Dexter/Kerry.  Unfortunately, Dr. Curran's theory was published prior to scientific dna evidence, and in my talks with him when I was in Ireland, he agreed his theory didn't stand the test of time.  I had thought I'd found there were six different types of Dexter, as had he, and I wondered if my types were the same as his.  No.  In the end, science showed that the differences we were both seeing were due to other effects more to do with conformation than any chondro influence.

I do know that it was a strongly held belief among earlier breeders that if one bred 'dexter' to 'dexter', eventually all the tall and monsters would be bred out and they would be left with their lovely little short legged animals that bred true.  I don't think that follows what you are saying. 

cheers, c.

[cascade]

Jun 20, 2019 23:11:47 GMT cddexter said:

Judy, 

I do know that it was a strongly held belief among earlier breeders that if one bred 'dexter' to 'dexter', eventually all the tall and monsters would be bred out and they would be left with their lovely little short legged animals that bred true. 
 

cheers, c.

The old timers were mostly correct... Breeding short to short will eventually leave you with 100% true-breeding short Dexters with no more tall ones and no more deformed monsters... But they missed one important step. You must immediately cull EVERY parent that throws a bulldog monster calf, and eventually cull every parent that throws tall calves. This will remove the chondro-shorts, and leave you with non-chondro true-shorts.

[lakeportfarms]

Ok Kirk, You've been at it for a while now and have a good size herd. Why don't you put your money where your mouth is, and show us more than the same few cows and bulls that demonstrate how you can produce 100% true short with no more tall ones. All I ever see if a couple of cows, and a bull or two of yours. The problem is, periodically a few "Cascade" cows and bulls show up in posts on Facebook that are owned by others, and they sure don't look very small to me. Are you deliberately selling off your large cows and bulls to others, and not following your own advice?

[lakeportfarms]

Wow Kirk, you must have so many "true shorts" in your herd it's taking you many days to accumulate all of the photos to prove me wrong. I know you're pretty good at uploading them. I'm not so good at photos here since photobucket made the changes. Otherwise I could taking hundreds of photos of all of my waist high cows and bulls and posting them.

[cascade]

You know I'm 100% correct that it is easily possible to create a line of 100% true-short Dexters, but it takes time and pace.

Also, if you are selecting for many different traits at the same time (not just shortness), it adds to the amount of time. My long list of traits being selected for, would make your head spin.

I have bunches of true-shorts in the 38-40 inch range, and I could take a zillion photos as I manage grazing many times each day, but those photos won't show you heights. I'll try to get someone to stand in photos in coming days.

[cddexter]

Hans, since your focus is on a different market, with different goals, instead of trying to trash Kirk, why not post here some of the tested chondro-free tiny Dexters of which you boast? If Kirk posts his pics too, then we have a level playing field. Of course both of you would have to account for all the animals in your herds, saying that of x animals, y are tested chondro-free and under 40", for instance...

c.