Gene Editing for polled

[jamshundred]

/www.pri.org/stories/2016-10-30/scientists-develop-hornless-holstein-using-gene-editing-are-you-ready-eat-it

[genebo]

I believe that gene editing, where a single gene is changed to get a polled offspring is superior to the process which was used to introduce polledness into the English Dexters. Those animals had to accept a full 1/2 of their genes from the other breed in order to get polledness. Included in the 50% of the offspring's DNA that came from the other breed were every bad trait associated with that other breed. 13 different forms of dwarfism, a tendency to larger size and larger birth weights. Crooked cervixes, low tailsets, poor feed efficiency, you name it, it was now a part of the polled 1/2 Dexter offspring.

Selecting for the polled trait in the offspring meant selecting for all the other-breed traits. The more generations that pass with selection for the other breed, the more the "Dexters" become like the other breed.

At least, with gene editing, there is no need to import any traits from another breed. The animal that results from gene editing for polledness should be identical to the Dexter that provided the other 24,999 or so genes in its makeup except it would not grow horns.

Maybe then the current version of polled animals would fall out of favor due to their negative aspects and the people who fear horns could still be satisfied.

Possibly we could revert back to the breed guidelines that were in effect prior to the inclusion of the foreign genetics that were used to produce polledness.

[jamshundred]

I second that conclusion.   

[cascade]

The very latest research is showing that the poll gene has been in Dexters since the 1890's foundation of the breed.  Godstone Esmeralda, Legacy Polled Dexter born in 1980, is heavily linebred back to 1894 Foundation Dexter Cow "Harley Poll".   All 16 of Esmeralda's great great grandparents are descendants of 1894 Harley Poll, registered in the Royal Dublin Society Irish Dexter Herdbook.

The poll gene in Dexters is the ultimate sign of breed purity since they can be traced back to the 1890's Irish Dexters.  

[cascade]

The Original Irish Dexter Breed Description from the 1890 Royal Dublin Society Irish Dexter Herdbook allowed for both horned and polled Dexters, and it said 100% of Dexters should be red or black and 100% should have short legs and beefy bodies (no long legs).

I'm happy that my purebred non-chondro, True-short Polled Dexters meet the original 1890 Irish Dexter Breed Guidelines.  This 3 year old, 40" tall, non-chondro, traditional polled Dexter Bull (Cascade's Ambassador) exactly neets the 1890 Irish Dexter guidelines and he is heavily linebred back to 1894 foundation Irish Dexter "Harley Poll".

[Deleted]

translation

Apr 25, 2019 14:50:49 GMT cascade said:

The very latest shit I just made up is showing that the poll gene has been in Dexters since the 1890's foundation of the breed.  Godstone Esmeralda, Legacy Polled Dexter born in 1980, is heavily linebred back to 1894 Foundation Dexter Cow "Harley Poll".   All 16 of Esmeralda's great great grandparents are descendants of 1894 Harley Poll, registered in the Royal Dublin Society Irish Dexter Herdbook.

The poll gene in Dexters is the ultimate sign of breed purity since they can be traced back to the 1890's Irish Dexters.  

[cascade]

All my facts are easy to verify for yourself:

1. The original 1890 Irish Dexter breed standard and registration rules allowed both horn Dexters and poll Dexters.

2. Ireland had several sources of poll genetics including "Red Poll Cattle" genetics which were imported into Ireland in the 1860's.

3. Dexters were thought to be a result crosses of Kerry cattle and beefier red cattle, like Red Poll cattle.

4. The neighboring Harley Dexter Herd and Chantry Dexter Herd were working together on a line of Poll Dexters in the early 1900's starting with Harley Poll (born in 1894) and Chantry Poll.

5. Dexters were always a mix of horned and hornless cattle.

6. Poll genes can hide in both horned cattle and de-horned cattle.

7. Every Dexter on Godstone Esmeralda's five generation pedigree is a direct descendant of "Harley Poll".


I understand how terrible it can feel to have your myths destroyed by the latest researched facts.


I'll be happy to show you how to verify all these facts for yourself.

[lonecowhand]

must be bored again, or kicked off another site.

This thread was about the only way one can introduce the polled condition without adding all the extra baggage coming from the polled breed donor: dystocia, mastitis, irritable bull syndrome.

[cascade]

You missed the fact that the Poll gene has been in Dexters since the 1890's foundation of the breed.  Godstone Esmeralda is from the "Harley Poll" line of Dexters.   Godstone Esmeralda is traditionally polled with a very pure  legacy Dexter pedigree tracing back to the old IRISH Dexter Herdbooks.  

[jamshundred]

POLL  is another version of POLLY.   The name for an animal without horns in Ireland ( and England) was a different word.   

You are a master of mis-information and illusion.

[cascade]

The 1894 foundation Dexter cow named "Harley Poll" was given the name "Poll" by George Habgood, the owner of the Harley herd, in southern England. A decade earlier in southern England, the "Red Poll" cattle breed was named "Poll" by the "Red Poll Cattle Society". "Poll" cattle were becoming a big deal at that time because cattle were starting to be transported by rail and truck and horns are a problem in tight spaces.

Only three Dexters in all of history received the name "Poll" and none of those three had records nor photos of horns. It would have been silly to name a cow "Poll" unless it was polled.

Lady Loder of the Grinstead Herd certainly knew what "Poll" meant since she also kept Red Poll cattle and was a member of the Red Poll Cattle Society founded in 1888.

www.redpoll.org

[cddexter]

Hey, Jood, is that why we don't have unicorns anymore? Horses have polls, just like cows do. I always thought the poll was the top of the head, hence the hornless term 'polled'.

[cascade]

Here is an example of the name "Poll" being applied to  polled cattle in the time when the Dexter breed was being founded.    This 1902  article refers to a black "Poll" cow.  





 

[jamshundred]

It is for the original genetics.   Much the same as the effort to preserve heirloom seeds.  They have characteristics that have not been changed by time, use of fertilizers, gene modification, chemical treatments, humans.

The early characteristics of the Dexter set them apart from all other cattle breeds.  So much in such a small package.

The Dexter immune system was renowned.  Early breeders believed the Dexter could not contract TB.  ( Perhaps they were right).  For me, it's like the flu shot.  Have you ever noticed that flu season always begins once they begin giving flu shots?
People who get the shots begin "shedding" the virus.    When the hoof and mouth outbreak caused the slaughter of thousands of animals in England, no Dexters were destroyed.  For several years I have been struck by the number of people on social media who have so MANY health and birthing problems with Dexters.  Should not be.     Many years ago I read a comment by Jerry Belanger, the founder and editor of Countryside magazine, copied it and posted above my desk.  It is profound in it's simplicity.     " The nature state is health".

Early maturity is another trait.  Both for breeding and butchering.  

Maximizing their forage.   Weeds are important in a pasture. I've been saying this for years.  "Make sure your Dexters have weeds".  They will take what they want/need and leave the rest.   I recently saw an article on the internet telling livestock owners to seed weeds into their pastures!

Ease of calving. Besides birthing their own with ease, Dexters have been lauded over the years for their ability to cross with other breeds and produce excellent hybrids with ease.

Mothering instincts, which, with horns, give the mother cows the ability to protect both their young and themselves from predators.

Intelligence and personality.   

ALL of these traits are present in the dwarf cattle, the foundation of the Dexter breed, and beyond the "cuteness factor", the reason Dexters survived when the Kerry breed waned almost into extinction.

Some of these traits  are NOT present in the non-dwarf cattle and frankly, when they are present, they think they are "less than".

It is absolutely imperative to preserve the DWARF Dexter in order to preserve the Dexter breed.

[cddexter]

But, Judy,

1. can't have it both ways. If Dexters can easily calve out from other larger breeds, why do think so many Dexter owners (your phrase) have birthing issues with their calves? 

2.  early Dexters were dwarf kerries or small kerries.  How can the dwarf dexter be different from a Kerry?  It's one gene...

c. 

[jamshundred]

CD,

That's a good question.  Because the COWS are hybrid Dexters.   Their genetics have been diluted and diluted.  Look how many Dexter cattle out there have Jersey characteristics and/or beef appearance.   

As to the Kerry . . . . .       . The Dexters were primarily the dwarf specimens of the breed.  They carried the important genetic traits I previously detailed.    Once the registries were established, the Kerry cattle were segregated into non dwarf cattle, they were larger cattle and more dairy in type.  The small dwarf cattle. . . . no doubt. .. . . . had tremendous curb and emotional appeal, . .  AND .  .. . . they functioned even more efficiently than the Kerry.    The Kerry could not hold their position in the dairy world as the Jersey, Guernsey, and Holsteins were bred for larger and ever larger udders and production so they lost all around.   Not small and cute and functional and productive as the Dexter, and not as productive as other developing dairy breeds,       ( and I am told perhaps in many cases not very personable/manageable).    Since they were also a minor breed small in number. .. . . . the breed began to shrink and shrink to near extinction.

[cascade]

Dexters are NOT Kerry. Any compact animal of ANY breed was allowed to become a registered "Dexter" upon inspection, as the herdbooks remained open to any breed for many years after the establishment of the Dexter breed in 1890.

When the Royal Dublin Society attempted to close the herdbook, English folks opened their own herdbook. America did the same thing, allowing for many years any short animals of any breed and any origin to become "Dexters" upon inspection.

The original Dexters were a mishmash of compact individuals from many other breeds including Kerry, Devon, Red Poll, Shorthorn, Irish Moiled, Angus, and many others. Some had chondrodysplasia, but many would have been truly short without chondrodysplasia. It's stupid to think that every animal with short legs, has chondrodysplasia.

The polled gene has always been in the Dexter breed because there was no requirement for horns in the 1890 Irish Dexter standard.

[jamshundred]

ANY animal of ANY breed was permitted into their respective breed EXACTLY as the Dexter foundation animals.   IF they looked like a Ayeshire, ( Jersey, Guernsey, Angus, Highland, ect, ect,) they were accepted into the respect registries.   YOU cannot alter history to meet your own agenda.

AMERICA was the ONLY country with Dexters that HONORED the foundation commitment to maintain the breed as pure for FIFTY years.   Then in the 1980's and 1990's. . .. .short-sighted and ignorant members of leadership permitted OUT-CROSSED, hybrid animals to be imported into America, a country where OUT-CROSSING for registration is STILL NOT PERMITTED! !     Such a lack of leadership and dereliction of duty as to maybe win an all -time award in the annals of animal husbandry.

[cascade]

America allowed import of any short animals of any breed from anywhere to become foundation "Dexters", they didn't even trace back to Ireland.

America imported Parndon Bullfinch in the 1960's... His pedigree is full of holes in the 1940's.... And he is on 99% of American Dexter pedigrees.

America imported Grinstead Ambassador in 1950... His pedigree is full of holes.

American Dexter "purity" is a myth.

[jamshundred]

Your nose is in danger of being caught in your belt buckle.

[cascade]

In 1966, Parndon Bullfinch was imported into the US. His grandsire was a bull named "Round Chimney's Roly Poly" who is on 99% of all today's Dexter pedigrees.

Roly Poly has 18 big gaping holes on the first page of his pedigree. All Dexters have some holes on their distant pedigrees.

[cddexter]

Kirk, most early animals have holes in their US pedigrees because the data was never entered.  The ancestors are there in the original registry, just not in our records.  I.e. Grinstead Nightjar and G. Dollie.

But, Limbury Freda was accepted into the original registry with ZERO background, nothing is known about her, LONG after the herd book was supposedly closed.  In her case, there are NO records in the US registry because there are no records for her in the original English registry either.  

  I suppose one could say she was and remains completely illegal, and will never, ever, be either a genuine Dexter, or the dam of one, either.  That she is in 99% of all American Dexter pedigrees is, as Judy will tell you, shameful and a disgrace to purebred registry ethics.  Oh well.  cheers, c.