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Post by jamshundred on Sept 21, 2014 18:19:22 GMT
I always assumed cattle were measured at the withers like the other breeds I raised. At some point. . . and I don't know when that was exactly. . . I started seeing height quoted from measuring at the rear. It wasn't until I read this article that I realized that Dick Gradwhol is credited with changing that. There are those of us concerned that the dwarf genetics on which the breed was founded have been so reviled many breeders only have non-carriers on their farms. Breeding non-carriers increases the height of the breed and . . . boy . . . .are there some BIG Dexters out there. If these large animals become the norm. . . . than kiss the Dexter breed goodbye. . . both genetically as well as physically. This breed HAS to stay a small heritage breed to survive. . . . because it cannot compete commercially and who is going to want to own an animal from the "smallest European breed" when they no longer are? No one. . . or the Kerry cattle would not be consistently facing extinction and large Dexter frames equal Kerry cattle! ! The article I am uploading in PDF format was written for Jersey cattle owners, but we all measure out cattle. This article shows how, shows the difference in measuring front and back, and has a great chart for all the sizes by age and standard measurement. I do not agree with everything here. . . . . mainly because cows are NOT mature at 36 months. For sure bulls are not. A Dexter depending on carrier or non-carrier status will definitely grow 3- 5 inches after the age of three. Unless Jersey cattle stop growing at three? Dexters do not. This is an interesting article. I had to upload each page seperately because of the size of the article. measuring height-1.pdf (409.06 KB) measuring height-2.pdf (388.71 KB) measuring height size chart-.pdf (521.03 KB) Judy
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Post by cascade on Sept 25, 2014 5:58:33 GMT
Breeding non-carriers increases the height of the breed and . . . boy . . . .are there some BIG Dexters out there. If these large animals become the norm. . . . than kiss the Dexter breed goodbye. . . both genetically as well as physically. This breed HAS to stay a small heritage breed to survive. . . I agree that it's very important to keep the dexter breed small. But I strongly DISAGREE that breeding non-chondros increases the height of the breed. In fact, the BEST way to bring down the size of dexters is to select for the shortest stock, generation after generation, WITHOUT using the chondro gene to do it. The problem with using the chondro-gene to reduce the size of Dexters, is that Chondrodysplasia dwarfism masks the true genetic height of the animal. The chondro gene interferes with one's ability to select for truly short stock with truly shorter genetics. In our non-dwarf/non-chondro herd, the smaller animals with truly smaller genetics stand-out and help me select for those truly smaller genetics.
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Post by jamshundred on Sept 26, 2014 12:30:32 GMT
Hi Kirk, Welcome to our world! Have you ever owned chondro carriers? If you work with both you will notice there are differences, and you DO have to accept that the Dexter breed was founded on dwarf cattle. When the dwarf genetics are removed. . . so is the Dexter. We DO have proof of that although it is not widely discussed because Woodmagic became the face of Dexters in England. However, the genetic evidence shows that Woodmagic, having bred out the dwarf genetics, was no longer similar to the traditional Dexters. They had became a seperate and distinct breed genetically. ( Cardiff report). You will rarely see this discussed because it pains the breed to deal with the reality of what everyone believed to be a brilliant solution. It wasn't . . . . for Dexters. The actual brilliant solution was known in America and put in writing by Otto Jensen . . . ( Tak-Sca-Du-Hav) way back when he sold some cows to Mr. Walker ( Cloverleaf) and advised him to breed short to tall to avoid the aborted calves. ( Copy of original letter is on my website- page six of historical pages). By using this method. . we retain the foundation characteristics that have made the Dexter breed desirable for their targeted market. One of these days Kirk, I swear I am going to convince you and you will send me a picture of an adorable little horned red Cascade dwarf! Judy
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Post by lakeportfarms on Sept 26, 2014 13:07:07 GMT
I actually like the mix of small and (sort of) large genetics in our carriers. When what I would call a "medium size" (say 38" for the sake of discussion) chondro cow delivers a bull calf, subsequently steered, that grows to a relatively large size at 28 months of say 44", that cow has significantly outproduced herself. The input cost of maintaining that somewhat smaller cow is less than if she were a larger framed non-carrier who raised the same size non-carrier steer. So 50% of the time with the steers you'll be ahead of the game, and in the case of the chondro carrier steers, we have customers who are not looking for a large quantity of beef, but would like the whole animal rather than taking 1/2 of a larger framed animal. There is also the matter of how the chondro carriers can be processed slightly sooner than the non-carriers due to their propensity to accumulate fat sooner. I have also had more success with getting a good quality carcass with our all grass fed and finished steers using intensive managed grazing with the chondro carriers. We currently designate the larger framed beefy chondro carriers as our grass finished steers, while designating the non-carrier steers for those customers who prefer a strictly grass fed for 24 months/grass and grain fed the last 3-4 months type of finish
For commercial type production, where consistency is considered desirable, this doesn't work. But for a highly customized private sale operation it has worked out extremely well for us. We match our steers to the buyers to help insure that they are happy with the results. When you get comments such as "best beef I ever had" along with 3 or 4 of their friends and family asking to be on the wait list, we must be doing something right. My problem now is that I need more land (and time).
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Post by cascade on Sept 26, 2014 23:52:18 GMT
Hi Kirk, Welcome to our world! Have you ever owned chondro carriers? If you work with both you will notice there are differences, and you DO have to accept that the Dexter breed was founded on dwarf cattle. When the dwarf genetics are removed. . . so is the Dexter. We DO have proof of that although it is not widely discussed because Woodmagic became the face of Dexters in England. However, the genetic evidence shows that Woodmagic, having bred out the dwarf genetics, was no longer similar to the traditional Dexters. They had became a seperate and distinct breed genetically. One of these days Kirk, I swear I am going to convince you and you will send me a picture of an adorable little horned red Cascade dwarf! Judy The Dexter breed was founded by people who wanted small, friendly, dual purpose cattle (just like most all of us want today). When a shorter-legged calf came along, they kept it for breeding purposes. But, one of the risks encountered in selecting for smaller animals, is that all sorts of genetic diseases can cause smaller animals. So in selecting for smaller animals, you have to make certain you aren't selecting for animals with problem genes. The Chondro-dwarf lethal gene is fatally flawed. Because the Chondrodysplasia gene is a co-dominant lethal gene, you can NEVER have a living homozygous chondro-dwarf, and can never have an entire herd of chrondro-dwarfs because they don't breed true. The definition of a breed, is animals that can breed true and reproduce themselves consistently. Chrondro dexters are essentially hybrids and can NOT breed true. Like all hybrids, chondro-dexters throw a mish-mash of types... 1 = Homozygous Chondro(deformed,dead), 2 = Heterozygous Chondro (dwarf), 3 = Non-Chondro (normal). The only reason that the Woodmagic herd is genetically distinct from dexters at large, is because it was a long-time inbred, closed herd based primarily on one single cow, with no other genetics allowed in for many decades. All of the animals in the Woodmagic herd are similar to the founding cow of the herd, and that would automatically make them somewhat dissimilar from dexters at large. Unlike the Woodmagic Herd, most herds are more similar to dexters at large, because most herds regularly bring in genetics from the greater dexter herd at large. I'm all in favor of short, friendly, dexters (with or without horns). I rejoice when I get compact, shorter-legged, friendly calves and I hate the leggy long-legged ones (we don't get those anymore on our farm). I cringe when someone refers to non-chondro dexters as long-legged, since I consider long-legs to be a fault to be corrected. While I have a polled herd that is nearly entirely polled, I currently have two short, red, horned, dexters that are pretty darn short, but without the chondro (since our entire herd is free of Chondro). I can't bare to dehorn them. They're out of two hetero-polled, non-chondro dexters. The good news is that I think most all of us want the same thing... Short, friendly, easy-to-manage cows and bulls. Dexters are terrific!
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Post by lakeportfarms on Sept 27, 2014 10:20:40 GMT
Good try Judy, but there is no convincing him. Do you have any of your "breeds true non lethal cows" (horned or polled) that look like these Kirk? You should have seen the size of the steer the little dun one in front raised that is ready to be processed shortly! If you have some I may come visit you and we can share strip/rotational grazing tips and techniques. Here is one of mine...a rolling water trough for $89 that you can get at Sam's Club. When you move your herd 8 or so feet at a time with a back line every couple of days, you move water a lot! And best of all, they serve a dual purpose when you're not using them for water by providing lots of storage on the way home from the processor for all that delicious Dexter beef you produce. This little fellow will be riding home in a few of these next fall. He's a chondro steer born in January. The photo was taken around July so he was around 6-7 months old and he's still on his momma, and he's grown a bit by October. We'll probably wean him this weekend. He will be all grass finished throughout next grazing season (it's hard to graze through 3 feet of snow), moved at least 2x per day to fresh strips.
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Post by morningstarfarm on Sept 27, 2014 12:23:25 GMT
Hans...I am in love with your cows they are beautiful! I really like the shortness and length of those girls. We don't have any carries yet but they on my bucket list for future purchase.
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Post by cascade on Sept 27, 2014 17:09:47 GMT
Hans, Your cows are in terrific condition and your rotational grazing with 2x daily moves is very similar to what we do here. It really is a fantastic approach and I like your water containers on wheels - VERY smart. Your carefully managed approach to using the chondrodysplasia-gene to raise beef does have some merit and could be used by any breed in a niche market like yours. It really has nothing to do with dexters but has everything to do with the gene. Using the Chondro-gene to raise beef is somewhat similar to the approach that many cattle folks use with "Black Baldies"... As you know, "Black Baldies" are a fantastic F1 hybrid cross between two different types of cattle (Angus and Herefords). For pure beef, black baldies can outperform both angus and herefords. Both black-baldies and chondro-cows don't breed true, so they aren't a true breed. If you mate two black-baldies together, you get a mishmash of results, just like if you breed two chondros together, you get a mishmash of results.
When I showed a friend a picture of your excellent conditioned cows (with pretty nice udders too), he exclaimed "THOSE ARE HUGE COWS WITH SHORTENED LEGS".... he could see that they have rather large underlying genetics and that half of the calves could turn out to be rather big. I explained that the large underlying genetics helps with your beef production.
The biggest problem that I have with Chondro, is that it doesn't breed true and that it masks the true larger genetics of the animal. BUT, that said, it sounds like you have a well-thought-out plan to make that all work to your benefit. It seems like most any meat producer could use the chondro-gene to do the same thing you are doing (on any breed of cattle) in a niche market. While I think we ought to carefully label/segregate ALL chondos in the registry (just like the Angus Folks and Hereford folks keep black baldies out of the registry), I can see how some producers might want to continue to use the gene (and lots of DNA testing) for beef production on a production herd in a niche market. But, for someone who wants an easy, small, friendly, consistent, dual-purpose homestead cow herd (without the need for constant testing), then true-breeding short dexter genetics without the chondro is the way to go.
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