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Post by jamshundred on Sept 29, 2014 19:22:07 GMT
This is not an anomaly. Every polled animal in the US has to descend from one GRADE bull, Saltaire Platinum. ( Four recorded outcrossings to unknown sires equals grade-or worse). I removed the name of the bull and his parents and grandparents. I highlighted with red Saltaire Platinum in the pedigree. Every beef/dairy breed in the world is carrying genetic recessives and we have NO idea what breeds are in four lines of this bull's pedigree and many of these breeders that are concentrating the genetics have no idea these polled lines could be a disaster waiting to happen. It took 24 years for the PHA to start rearing it's ugly head in the US. Saltaire Platinum's first calf was not quite 20 years ago. Is this rational? The sire has SP as a great-great on both sides of the paternal line and the maternal line has him one generation further back on both sides. The dam's paternal line has him on three of the four lines. Why isn't this being addressed by the leadership? Have they no idea what is happening? Or could happen?  |
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Post by cascade on Oct 2, 2014 23:15:03 GMT
1. Every single Dexter on the planet descends from non-Dexters. Dexters share nearly 100% of their genetics with other British breeds - they're VERY closely related to each other.
2. Problem genes are simply DNA copy errors (mutations) and they occur regularly in all animals.
3. Problem genes (mutations) can pop-up in even the most "traditional" of animals.
4. Line-breeding is the only good way to find if an animal is free of new/unknown problem mutations.
5. Unlike many "traditional" dexters, Saltaire Plantinum has been proven to be free of lethal/problem mutations, via lots of close line-breeding
6. The ONLY thing that keeps dexters as dexters, is ongoing selection against a set of standards.
7. Most Saltair Platinum descendents easily meet the standard of small, friendly, dual-purpose cattle. Any that don't, are easily culled, or corrected by further breeding.
8. Physical dehorning of cattle can be brutally painful and inhumane. Saltaire Platinum (polled) has save thousands of Dexters from that painful, inhumane dehorning process.
No problem here.
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Post by Guest on Oct 3, 2014 0:12:35 GMT
Appears that this is an opportunity rather than a crisis.
What actions of leadership are being called for? Banning persons from using the polled bull or not line breeding to him.
For what purpose? To decrease the number of polled animals and make them more 'valued'.
If the purpose of this bunch is to "save" the breed from some calamity - go about doing it and get on with it.
All I have seen here is a whole lot of whining and calls to breed dwarfs.
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Post by jamshundred on Oct 3, 2014 0:34:36 GMT
Isn't that true of nearly every breed of cattle that descends from European ancestry? Especially so with the British cattle because the English conceived themselves as cattle-makers! There is no Holstein that has all Holstein genetics. . .. or even the lovely Jersey comes from other roots. All cattle roamed freely until they began to be gathered into breeds in the 1800s.
So. . . . ..what mutations do you attribute to the Dexter breed? ( And you cannot say polled - it was NOT a mutation). I am asking for a mutation that is strictly Dexter only.
Name one in Dexters that didn't hitchhike.
So they say. Yet the Woodmagic herd was a closed herd for many years and supposedly PHA only cropped up when the animals began to be "outcrossed" with other bloodlines. ( I believe otherwise because of records of calf deaths in the UK herdbooks - and the Woodmagic and Doesmead herds had high numbers of dead calves. Early photos of both these herds seem to depict more non-dward animals than dwarf.
I think there is NOT "proof" of this assumption. I think we are just on the verge of the line-breeding pulling out issues because even though he appears on many lines of many pedigrees there are still enough traditional animals being used in the breeding programs to hold existing problems at bay.
Good lord. Who is doing that? ( Selecting to the standard). It certainly isn't the mainstream pool of breeders. The things that keeps Dexters as dexters is chondrodysplasia. It is the dwarf cattle that carry ALL the traits that are valued in Dexters, including the non-miniature size.
But are they Dexters? Not by pedigree. Most polled cattle do NOT align with the standard. Begin with the comparison of the original breed standard for heads, faces, and eyes. It is the DWARF genetics that are described in those standards Kirk. You know what puzzles me? There are many Dexter owners who raise and train various breeds of pedigree dogs. I see them picturing and discussing them on FB pages. Not a single one of them would ever permit the outcrossing in their pedigree dog papers that they seem comfortable in having in their pastures. There is NO difference in a mongrel cow or a mongrel dog when it comes to the crossing of other breeds. Once a dog breed is developed . . .. breeders are honor bound to maintain the breed. What happend to the honor code in cattle?
There is not a Dexter breeder more outspoken or critical of the practice of dehorning than I, although it is the dehorning of adult cattle that should be banned by law. It IS a brutal and barbaric procedure in any form. I groan when people use their children as an excuse. Their children are more likely to get stepped on by a polled animal than gored by a horned one. There are certainly more people killed by hornless animals each year than horned ones. Leadership of the heritage breeds were negligent to permit their breeds to be marginalized by having to dehorn them for 4H showing. They should have stood up and fought. The horns of Dexters are part of their heritage and physical beauty. Polled animals are a dime a dozen roaming the fields . . . .ugly and uglier, ( although an Angus farm near me has a traditional Aberdeen Angus bull and he IS gorgeous. Taking the horns off Dexters is connected to a lack of leadership in this breed that did not prize the beauty of the horns or educate breeders as to handling. In the early days of the breed all Dexters were horned and there were large herds all in dairies being milked. What changed? The ignorance, cruelty. and greed of humans. . . became acceptable.
No problem here either . . . and that is why members of this breed should protect the heritage and horns of the cattle breed they have chosen to represent as owners and breeders.
Judy
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Post by jamshundred on Oct 3, 2014 0:49:23 GMT
Dear guest.
With the break of day I have re-read your thoughts feel they have merit and deserve a thoughtful response. My position that it is cowardly to engage with anonymity hasn't changed but I do understand why there might be hesitation. Perhaps we can overcome that?
No There is a very real crisis. . for Dexters. The breed is being deleted. By an imposter. I bet when you bought Dexters you bought the brochure, right? You were excited by the breed traits. Well, those breed traits all have their base in dwarfism, with size being very attractive as part of the package. Let's talk size. The counter part to the dwarf when the breeds were organized was the Kerry. Tall- long legs with longer and leaner heads were called Kerry, the smaller dwarfs with the large heads were Dexters. How many Kerry cattle do you hear of today? Why is that? Their brochure was identical to the Dexter brochure. What was different? The size! Without the dwarf genetics you either have Kerry cattle or miniaturized cattle. Dexters are NOT a miniature breed. Remove the dwarf and you remove the Dexter both in size and in breed traits. When you bring in outcrossed genetics something gets changed and displaced. Could it be the trait for converting forage more efficiently than most breeds? Could it be the ease of calving. ( A real concern because of the many reports of calves being pulled and dead calves.) Could it be the renowned immune system? ( I see so many reports of vets being called for disease and infection I cringe). The only opportunity I desire is to be part of saving a little dwarf breed from being deleted.
To lead. To tell the truth. The whole truth. Saltaire Platinum is an imposter. A GRADE bull. He did not qualify to be registered without the "error or fraud" that occured. Esmeralda was an outcrossed cow.
We do NOT know the sire's genetics. As a polled cow she did not qualify for registry in the UK, but was given a regular registration number from the yearly calving report because her polled status was either not known or not reported. FIRST instance of "error/fraud". At best, once discovered, she should have been placed in the A category of the upgrading registry. Either way. . her son, Migh Poldark was not eligible for registration. Male offspring of outcrossed animals are NOT registered under any circumstances. His son, Saltaire Platinum also did not qualify for registration. That isn't the end of it though. There was yet another "error/fraud" in the only year a herdbook was not issued in England. Did someone think it was a perfect opportunity for a registration change to go unnoticed? Another grandsire was outcrossed . again without the sire's breed/genetics being known. This animal WAS registered correctly in the appendix/upgrade registry. However, in the year of no herdbook. ... . a new registration was submitted with a different sire. It has been publically acknowledged the original registration was the correct one by the breeder. ( It was a new owner who submitted a revised registration). This is documented in the archived records of which I have a copy. That is TWO instances of "error/fraud" with upgrading whose genetics are unknown. There are TWO other instances in the 10 line pedigree that are correctly recorded.
Remedy: Full disclosure to members by the associations. Tell the truth. Next Divide the registry into categories that prevent potential buyers and breeders from using an animal whose bloodline they are not familir. I think two divisions "might" be sufficient with horned ( including Lucifer) and polled BLOODLINES ( which includes horned). The outcrossing in Saltaire Platinum is unacceptable and needs to be segregated. Simple as that. There is another animal that did not qualify for registration with US rules. Breough Sultan does NOT have the five line required. He was registered in error. He should join Saltaire Platinum in the upgraded section. So maybe the second division should be "imported animals after 1987 ( which includes Lucifer). At the very least. . . .this should be on the table for discussion by leadership.
They have ignored and even benefited from this situation way past excusable.
I think that will not happen. For a few years now the polled cattle have enjoyed FAD status in the cattle world. Every single species that has had a FAD cycle has had a CRASH cycle which has all but destroyed the market. With the meat market continuing it's upward spiral the polled breeders have held off the crash because. .. . frankly. .. many of them sell their animals as if they were beef breeds to unsuspecting sale outlets. The horned cattle are devalued as much as 30-60 cents a pound. The uptrending meat market will also lure many of those who jumped into polled Dexters to make financial gains back into the commercial breeds as they were only in for the money in the first place. Dexters may be heading for a double whammy crash cycle. If you doubt me. . . . find me some $15,000 llamas, bottom line $4000 mini horses and donkeys, ( many sold for $10,000 in donkeys to $100,000 in mini horses). Remember the prices of pot belly pigs and emus? You can not run up the prices in a breed beyond commercial viability without inviting disaster. It is no different than the pyramid schemes. Those in at the beginning reap the rewards and those late to the game leave with empty pockets.
We are struggling with two calamitys. An impending crash in prices from the fad cycle and the drastic changes that have wiped out hundreds of traditional Dexters and replaced them with upgrades. It is a formidable task to preserve this breed as it was intended when organized.
Define whine. If you are not using dwarf cattle in the breeding program you are breeding the equivalent of Kerry cattle and that isn't very promising.
Judy
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Post by cascade on Oct 3, 2014 5:30:16 GMT
Most mutations are simply "broken genes" due to DNA copy errors.
The polled gene isn't really a "polled gene", but is almost certainly just a "broken" horn regulator gene
The Chondro gene, is just a broken ACAN gene which regulates the action of Chondrocytes (cells that form cartilage and bone)
The Dun gene isn't really a "Dun gene", but is just a broken TYRP1 gene, which when not broken makes black pigment look black
The PHA gene, is just a another broken regulator gene
All of these mutations (broken genes) likely have occurred in dexters (and in some other breeds too).
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Post by jamshundred on Oct 3, 2014 13:01:26 GMT
Kirk,
You didn't answer my question. You did NOT give me a mutation that is known only to Dexters. See! See how unique the Dexter breed is! If I were to suspect a rarity in mutation in the breed it would be the dwarfism because it is different than the dwarf genetics of other breeds and it carries some very positive breed characteristics with it.
You named polled, ( which is in other breeds and was outcrossed into Dexters), PHA ( which is in other breeds and though it is believed to have mutated slightly in Dexters a case can be made it came in from another breed), and you mentioned DUN which is also believed to have been introgressed - likely back to the foundation animals and likely from the Sussex dun. Have you noticed they have stopped calling it a unique mutation in Dexters? Like much of our science today. . . .. it is about getting a paper published in a scientific journal and not necessarily about investigating ALL possibilities.
Judy
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Post by cascade on Oct 3, 2014 21:59:41 GMT
You did NOT give me a mutation that is known only to Dexters. See! See how unique the Dexter breed is! If I were to suspect a rarity in mutation in the breed it would be the dwarfism because it is different than the dwarf genetics of other breeds and it carries some very positive breed characteristics with it. You named polled, ( which is in other breeds and was outcrossed into Dexters), PHA ( which is in other breeds and though it is believed to have mutated slightly in Dexters a case can be made it came in from another breed), and you mentioned DUN which is also believed to have been introgressed - likely back to the foundation animals and likely from the Sussex dun. Have you noticed they have stopped calling it a unique mutation in Dexters? Like much of our science today. . . .. it is about getting a paper published in a scientific journal and not necessarily about investigating ALL possibilities. Judy Since most all cattle share most all of the same genes and since mutations are just broken genes (copy errors), then it makes sense that those genes occasionally break in all breeds. Dwarf Dexters have a broken ACAN gene. Dwarf cats, dwarf mice, and dwarf humans also have a broken ACAN gene. It makes sense that broken genes are found independently throughout many breeds and many animals The polled gene too is just a broken gene (horn-regulator) and those genes break from time to time in ALL breeds. I don't believe there is any proof that the polled gene in dexters came from an outcross Since the polled mutation (copy error) likely occurs about once in about every 10,000 - 20,000 calves, we'll likely see another fresh new polled mutation pop up in dexters in coming decades. PS... They recently found the Dun gene (broken tyrp1 gene) in pigeons |
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Post by lakeportfarms on Oct 3, 2014 23:26:39 GMT
Kirk, you need to change your avatar. Do you realize it shows traditional horned Dexters and horror of horrors, perhaps even a shortie bull!!!
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Post by cascade on Oct 4, 2014 4:35:24 GMT
Kirk, you need to change your avatar. Do you realize it shows traditional horned Dexters and horror of horrors, perhaps even a shortie bull!!! Ha!!! I thought about using a picture of my two non-chondro shortie, horned girls (out of hetero polled dexters). I've got two of them, but the rest of our herd of over 40 dexters are polled. I do LOVE the look of horns and I'm glad there are some folks keeping horned dexters. One thing that's interesting, is that even though polled animals have their horns switched off, they still have all (or nearly all) the genes for making horns. |
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Post by lonecowhand on Oct 6, 2014 16:45:05 GMT
And the genes for whatever else the other polled half had.
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Post by cascade on Oct 7, 2014 0:04:57 GMT
And the genes for whatever else the other polled half had. Registered Polled Dexters are 100% purebred dexters, just like the registered horned dexters are. But, even the most "traditional" of registered horned dexters have lots of non-dexters in their distant backgrounds. The horns on horned dexters come from Kerrys and many other breeds. Horns or not, Dexters are a wonderful breed of small, friendly, trouble-free, dual purpose cattle, with VERY friendly bulls... perfect for the homestead. Ongoing selection for those traits is critical to the breed. |
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Post by genebo on Oct 7, 2014 2:57:58 GMT
You are dodging the facts. The Angus ancestry of polled "Dexters" is well documented. You just choose to ignore it, riding on the coat-tails of the short little Dexter cattle that attracts so many to the breed.
The polled "Dexters" could just as well been named Dwarf Angus, and it would have been just as fitting.
I have sold Dexter semen to a large number of breeders of other breeds. They each had their reasons for using Dexter semen on their cows. Some wanted to produce a Mini Jersey. Some wanted to have a large calf breed deliver a small first calf. Some wanted a smaller, more efficient version of their breed of choice. To their credit, not one of them ever stooped to calling their calves "Dexters". That wouldn't be an honorable deception to attempt.
The Dexter/Shorthorn heifer that I bought back in 2003 was an honestly named heifer. Her heritage was evident in her name.
My neighbor, that used Rainbow Hills Ivanhoe to service his herd of Angus brood cows, called the offspring "Dangus". He never tried to deceive anyone by mis-labeling his cross breeds. He was rather proud of the characteristics of the calves he got and loved to tell of their mixed heritage. His calves were identical to those that antecede every one of the polled cattle that are registered as Dexters.
A touch of honesty surrounding the offspring of Platinum would be welcome.
It offends me when someone who chose to raise that type of cattle constantly makes claims about the lack of purity within the entire Dexter breed in order to make their choice of cattle look better.
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Post by jamshundred on Oct 7, 2014 3:54:24 GMT
There is that wit again Hans. I have been chortling over this one for three days. Even Kirk had a good smile. Kirk, you CAN put up your own avatar.
Gene ! It is so good to see you home and in such great spirits. I think you must be setting records but do not spoil it by getting too daring!!
Judy
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Post by cascade on Oct 7, 2014 4:51:53 GMT
Looks like a purebred dexter to me. dextercattle.org/pedigreedb/ponyweb.cgi?horse=6504 But remember that 100% of the distant ancestors of ALL Dexters are NON-Dexters, and 100% of ten-generation pedigrees contain some errors. The MOST important thing is continued selection of dexter traits... Small, Friendly, Dual purpose, Healthy, Efficient, Trouble-free (and bulls should be super friendly). |
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Post by jamshundred on Oct 7, 2014 8:58:30 GMT
Kirk
If only it were as simplistic as your position. Dexters had a most unique phenotype. You are not only advocating changing it but are actively breeding to do so. You want to breed a rattlesnake to a garter snake keep the fangs, and venom, and get rid of the flat head and rattles and call it a garter snake. You cannot bring in all the upgrading in this one bull, line breed him across 85% of your population and still pretend a starting population of no more than a couple thousand living/breeding animals will not be genetically engineered into a new breed. It is impossible otherwise.
I read a post from a Dexter owner tonight in a discussion about registering and this owner stated they had always raised pedigree dogs and registrations were important. I assumed she was thinking from a position that in dogs the breeds are defined and while there may be cheaters they are not sanctioned and are removed if discovered, and when there is crossing of breeds it is used.........correctly.......to develop a new breed.......not to "improve" an established one I wanted to ask this person if there was an awareness of FOUR out-crossings of unknown heritage in their immediate pedigree and how a registration certificate comforted the reality of owning the dog-world equivalent of a mongrel mutt? Mongrel mutts are lovable and loyal companions but they are not registration certified as something they are not
I suspect the owner had no idea of the truth of the pedigrees in the file cabinet.
Kirk, if it were as simple and correct as you believe.......why was there so much deceit and why weren't breeders told the truth? Why the fraud and deception?
One man who avowed he hated horns was manipulated by another person who vowed to destroy the unique purity status of the American herd and these two have all but
succeeded in the quest! How did that happen that many more voices than two were disregarded and dishonored as was the breed they stewarded?
Judy
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kwin
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Post by kwin on Oct 7, 2014 13:27:10 GMT
Y'all seriously make me want to pull my hair out!! Eesh...mongrel mutt, eh?? And to think how hurt y'all get when Chondro is called what it is, a "lethal gene". But you'd never, ever, call for these, bastard, mongrel, "genetically engineered" animals to have their registrations pulled, right? Kinda hard for me to believe since y'all have spewed more and more hatred at some of the docile, friendly, thrifty, easy calving, Dexters I own...who just happen to have a polled bull on their PEDIGREE! Oh wait, the light just came on...maybe your strategy is to instead spew your hatred everywhere you possibly can...possibly turning more people away from not only the demon polled beasts, but the breed in general. Heck, if I didn't actually take the time to do my own research, and just skimmed the forums, I'd find out that the "perfect homestead cow" is apparently full of all sorts of defects and if you could possibly find a way to avoid the defects, you can't trust that the animal you own is actually a pure Dexter...not to mention a group of owners who just can't get along...not even for the promotion of the breed!!
And before you just automatically jump on me for being a shorty hater...I happen to love how the little short cows with horns look, and a shorty calf just melts my heart...AND I know Chondro, as well as PHA, is an incredibly easy to manage, albeit, lethal gene. Also, don't think I'm here to push my own evil polled agenda, I love ALL Dexters who fit the breed description. However, I do think it's utterly ridiculous that the size of all Dexters is on the rise, and that should be of more concern to the protectors of the breed than whether they have SP in their lineage or not. Seriously, how can they be touted as the breed for the small landholder when they are getting as big as some commercial breeds? Bigger=more feed=more land=not too perfect for the small landholder...but let's seriously just keep talking about their, dirty, dirty polledness.
Also, with the way "suspect" bulls are so easily reclassified as "Legacy" bulls once ALL the leaves have been overturned, how are we to honestly believe that won't be the case with SP someday??!!
Heck, maybe we should have a discussion about the percentage of the American herd, before SP, that had one or two bulls scattered throughout & monopolizing their pedigrees. Can you seriously say SP is the first bull to be found on the majority of pedigrees??!! One of my cows has more % of one "Legacy" bull in her pedigree than the teensie drop of SP y'all hate so much. I'm so tired of hearing about how 85% of the herd is "infected" with the genetics from this ONE bull...I honestly think my eyes will start to bleed if I read anymore of it.
I also am seriously disappointed in some of y'all who sound like such knowledgeable, respectful, promoters of the breed on other forums, then I guess you come here and let your hair down since you're amongst friends and a moderator who shares your views. What is it that's said about how wise men shouldn't walk with fools??
Blech, I just wasted 20 more minutes of my life on y'all...I know it'll all fall on deaf, unyielding ears. Maybe it would be best if you went ahead and didn't allow guests to view this completely one sided load of hooey. Sad too, cause I know how passionate and knowledgeable y'all are about these little cows. I would never turn people off of owning a registered Dexter for anything other than them being untested, have bad confirmation, horrible temperament, size outside of the breed standard, or un-thriftiness. Why can't y'all just believe that there is a Dexter owner for EVERY kind of Dexter out there?? I love that y'all are making some different breeding choices than some I choose...but I guess I should know by now it's too much to ask in return for y'all to just let me continue breeding what I prefer...conformationally & breed correct, dual purpose animals from old lines, newer lines, horned & polled, all colors and Chondro status, who represent exactly what people are looking for in the perfect homestead animal.
Seriously how do y'all even find the time and energy to keep it up...I have a mongrel or two to go play with.
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Post by cascade on Oct 7, 2014 16:35:18 GMT
It IS as simple as this:
Step 1. Obtain some wonderful friendly registered purebred Dexters (horned or not)
Step 2. Continue to breed and select for breed traits of small, friendly, easy-to-manage, thriftiness, dual purpose
Step 3. Don't worry about distant pedigrees because they ALL have non-dexters on them somewhere and it's ancient history
Step 4. Love and enjoy your dexters... they're amazing
PS. Horns are great if you like them, but rather than dehorning, consider breeding naturally polled (hornless).
PPS. Every pure breed of dog (or cows) has tons of mongrels in their distant backgrounds. It's the most recent 5 generations that matter and, the most recent 3 generations that matter the most.
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Post by lonecowhand on Oct 7, 2014 21:28:18 GMT
Kwin, it's not hatred you are witnessing, it's umbrage. I'm sure no one cares what you breed, what they care about is calling it what it's not. I'm sure you have nice cows.
As for mongrels, that was to illustrate what it is called in dog breeds.
You aren't allowed to breed AKC Irish setters, mix in a little French Bulldog, and call the white polka dotted tail-less progeny AKC Registered Irish Setters. That's what is perceived to have happened.
In dogland, they admit new breeds occasionally, but the new breed has standards also.
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kwin
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Post by kwin on Oct 7, 2014 22:37:43 GMT
The simple fact of the matter is that polled Dexters ARE an accepted variation into BOTH American Dexter registries...sorry, but get over it...and continue to breed the animals you love for the betterment of the American herd, and I'll do the same. There really is a way to do it WITHOUT putting down certain genes and certain bulls...honest!
And just as folks need to get over the idea that Chondro is a bad thing that needs to be eradicated from the breed, y'all just need to stop, too...it does nothing but hurt the breed to continue any of this nonsense.
And you're right...there are strict breed standards to be met with AKC, as well as just about any horse, cattle, sheep, goat, pig, etc. breed association...and abiding by the breed standard that the registries say define a Dexter is where the focus should be going forward. Can you imagine the change that could happen if y'all would spend your passion, time, and energy on THAT??
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Post by otf on Oct 7, 2014 22:44:44 GMT
Just curious, kwin....where are you located and how long have you had Dexters?
And just to be fair, I've had them for 15 years, live in central VA. I've got both chondro+, two PHA+, all horned.
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kwin
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Post by kwin on Oct 7, 2014 23:12:13 GMT
As for mongrels, that was to illustrate what it is called in dog breeds. You aren't allowed to breed AKC Irish setters, mix in a little French Bulldog, and call the white polka dotted tail-less progeny AKC Registered Irish Setters. That's what is perceived to have happened. I appreciate your comment  ...and I only reused mongrels & lethal gene to show a little bit of the hypocrisy that goes on  Remind me how long ago it was perceived to have happened...20 years ago right??...my goodness, I was in high school and had barely gotten over my crush on Vanilla Ice Any big, bad, boogie monster genes that SP may have had would've become an issue by now...especially considering the level of "line breeding" he is involved in. I know Aldebaren Priapus/PHA is always brought up here as well, but I don't think he was even used as much as SP, and even then only a few of his direct offspring were carriers, right? How long was it before it was known that there was a "new" issue? The issues that keep being touted/blamed on SP are nothing more than poor SELECTION of breeding stock, or maybe even breeding pairs, as stated already...and y'all must admit that poor selection can tend to be a trend within the Dexter breed...bad feet, bad udders, bad temperament, too tall, too heavy, too narrow...etc...are some of the things the rest of the cattle world know about Dexters. I admit it, it's hard to cull them cause most of them are big...err...little ol teddy bears, so we make exceptions hoping that pairing them with a different mate will improve those bad traits in future generations...but is that always for the betterment of the herd? And breeding for any one or two traits will always lend to poorer overall animals. When we first started buying our breeding stock we found a two year old bull who already had a hip height of 45", he was beautiful & everything else we wanted in a herd sire, but, even being the complete novices we were, we felt it kind of safe to say he would finish out as a big boy, bigger than the breed standard, who would've most likely thrown calves who'd grow like him. So, we passed...I'm sure he ended up in someone else's pasture, though, as we weren't the only interested party. I feel that is the problem going forward...no one is being held to the breed standard. Anyway, like I said before, y'all breed what you think improves the overall herd, and the rest of us will do the same, and goodness gracious can we stop all the bickering...and maybe instead focus on how to solve the real problems facing our breed?? |
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Post by jamshundred on Oct 7, 2014 23:19:53 GMT
Kwin,
Did you know that Saltaire Platinum was #6504 in the US herdbook. ( a decade shy of the first century post imports). So for 90 years in the US. . . . the American herd DID NOT permit upgraded animals. They still DO NOT permit US breeders to upgrade and register purebred animals. Only imported upgrades can compete.
How many living Dexters do you think there were in 1994 out of 90 years total of 6503? Remember in 1994 Dexter cattle, a rare horned heritage breed were on the ALBC endangered list of animals.
Currently 85% of ALL Dexter registrations, ( it might be higher in the last 12 months) are from one bull. A polled GRADE bull. ( I will use grade since mongrel was upsetting to you, because he IS a grade bull and he DID NOT qualify for registry in the US based on the ACTUAL information available on this bull. Actually, he did not qualify for registration in the UK either without the error/fraud that gave Esmeralda a regular registry number instead of an appendix registry number. THIS IS IMPORTANT.
Would you find this same situation acceptable in a registered AKC border collie for instance? Would it be OK if that border collie won best of show at Westminster? When is it OK to lie and cheat and when is it not OK?
Do you know that polled was approved. . . . . . . . because Bonnie Beaudreau dropped her pencil beneath the table and reached for it and was passed for the vote? This according to a very long time member of the ADCA BOD. Do you know that the members, by the existing R&R should have had a vote on an issue of this import? Do you know that Directors who voted yes did so based on lies and deceit. . . . . . . and one other little minor issue. . . . . . threat of lawsuit. ADCA was terrified of being sued so leaders forfeited a very rare and special little breed of horned cattle to the hater, the opportunist, the liar, and ignorance.
These imposters are simply . . . . .. . NOT. . . . .. THE. . . . . SAME. . . . ., Kid yourself they are the same or better. . . . but there is a word for it. DENIAL.
Judy
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Post by jamshundred on Oct 7, 2014 23:31:46 GMT
Not to me Kirk! ! Here is a photo.. Tell me which one has a phenotype most often seen in photos of POLLED Dexters. If you wish to make it a wissing contest. . . . . . I will match you photo for photo and we shall see whose photos are most representative. ( I realize they are very similar - but I feel I see one of them more often than the other. judy  |
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Post by lakeportfarms on Oct 7, 2014 23:39:10 GMT
Not to me Kirk! ! Here is a photo.. Tell me which one has a phenotype most often seen in photos of POLLED Dexters. If you wish to make it a wissing contest. . . . . . I will match you photo for photo and we shall see whose photos are most representative. ( I realize they are very similar - but I feel I see one of them more often than the other. judy I know the one is SP, but the other one is also a photo of him? I can see why the other is used on his pedigree! |
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Post by jamshundred on Oct 7, 2014 23:43:20 GMT
Kwin,
The REAL problem facing our breed is that it is being deleted. We have, at best, only 15% breeding stock left that does not have this ONE bull in the pedigree multiple times. (SP) Am I to understand by your commentary you think that is OK? Oh sure. . . . it happened with Bullfinch A1, and it happened with Lucifer (A1) and Jamie O'Callen (A1) has contributed a lot of offspring. All of them were traditional Dexters that did NOT have FOUR beef outcrossings in their pedigree.
And. . . Aldebaran Priapus was the "root" of the US problem, but it was manifested in his offspring, Trillium Chabotte, ( Crandwoth Xanadu) and Cranworth Toby.
Judy
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Post by lakeportfarms on Oct 8, 2014 0:30:27 GMT
Kwin,
You seem to be upset at the increasing size in height of the Dexters, yet you seem to not accept that in the rush to create more and more polled Dexters that an awful lot of single trait selection is going on. And now that a polled test is available, I'd lay odds that very nearly 100% of the homozygous polled bulls, particularly if they are A2/A2, are kept intact and sold as breeding bulls, despite their size or potential/likely size. And I'm pretty sure that most of the heterozygous polled bulls are kept intact and only steered as a last resort as polled breeders are becoming more and more plentiful now. In the meantime they're also producing cows out of the larger genetics, which of course will also do their part in producing ever larger Dexters.
So where do you think the smaller genetics are going to come from, and when do you think that breeders of polled Dexters are going to put the breed before their profits and start to cull their oversize bulls and heifers? I can tell you...not until they don't have any choice in the matter! In the meantime, you're going to keep seeing larger Dexters for a while to come. And it's going to turn off a lot of buyers who were attracted to the breed by what they read about small dual purpose cows that they are. I've had more than a few people who have come to our farm after seeing some Dexters somewhere else, and they ask why ours are so small compared to the others they've seen, and I'm not just talking about the chondro carriers. One was adamant that they wanted polled red, and after seeing our dun horned shorties they did an about face and said "THAT is what I want, I didn't know something like that existed!" Too bad I didn't have any I was able to sell him, because we keep most of our shorties.
Furthermore, perhaps what you see from some of us is the backlash to the many breeders out there who take every opportunity they can to bash the horned, and especially chondro carrier Dexters. Just look at the latest Dexter bulletin and the Region 3 director's message as an example. Look at the advertisements in the bulletin and on the ADCA site primarily by polled breeders, emphasizing their chondro free status. Why do they mention it? Because they know that they have encouraged and perpetuated a narrative that chondrodysplasia is something to be avoided at all costs.
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Post by Publius on Oct 8, 2014 3:44:09 GMT
Authentication and provenance on the photos.
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Post by Publius on Oct 8, 2014 3:50:34 GMT
Discussion of dog breeding on a cattle forum as illustrative? Kwin that might be your clue.
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Post by cascade on Oct 8, 2014 4:41:45 GMT
So where do you think the smaller genetics are going to come from? Smaller genetics aren't likely going to come from breeding chondros, because the chondro gene interferes with selection for truly smaller genetics. If you have a 41" chondro bull, he could be hiding 49" genes. Smaller genetics are going to come from breeders who select for truly smaller genes and there are plenty of truly smaller genetics in both horned and polled non-chondro herds. There are a LOT of Woodmagic true-short genetics in Saltaire Platinum's background, just look at his pedigree. In our mostly polled and completely non-chondro herd, I can walk out there and instantly see who the truly short ones are, and I can see if their calves are short too. Having a bunch of chondro-dwarfs in the mix would make it messy. We're getting a good number of true-short polled dexters and our bulls are VERY sweet. Truly short and polled is easily achievable. PS. Isn't it great that we are all agreeing that compactness and sweetness are key Dexter traits that we should all be striving for in both horned and polled herds |
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...and I only reused mongrels & lethal gene to show a little bit of the hypocrisy that goes on 
