What four sire lines are considered “bred up”

[yellowhouse]

I am new to Dexters. September will mark our first year in the breed. I read in another post on this forum there are four sire lines that are considered “bred up”. We have made a commitment to breed only pure horned pedigrees(no polled genetics). Can someone tell me what those four sire lines are and why they are considered “bred up”. It may be helpful to post this info in a sticky for other new breeders to prevent repetition. Thanks

[cddexter]

hi yellowhouse
England, back in the beginning, allowed any bovine that met the new Dexter breed standards 'by inspection' to be registered as a purebred, to get the 'breed' started. This continued from 1879 to 1922. From that time on, England has always had an upgrading program, five generations for bulls, four for cows, each generation required to meet breed standards along the way, and only heifers accepted until the fifth generation. Polled upgrades (where the polled gene was carried forward for those four or five generations) were accepted. Certainly in England, while horns were part of the breed, they were never seen as a limiting condition for registration. It's only recently that some have re-defined things to suit themselves and make it out that without horns, you don't have a Dexter...

In the early 90's, a WA state breeder got tired of dehorning, and decided to bring into the US a polled purebred bull from England. At the time, the only US requirement was an animal must be from two fully registered Dexter parents (the US did not allow upgrading, but accepted other country's animals on pedigree--with and without upgrades in the background).

At the time, there were four polled sources in England: One from a questionable source but accepted at the time, two from known upgrades where the animals went through the upgrade program, with inspections, and the fourth appeared to be a spontaneous mutation (more on this later).

Another Dexter breeder was asked to help find a suitable polled bull, as she made regular trips to England and had all the herd books, and knew the various bloodlines and breeders there. Since the WA breeder was definite he was going to bring in a polled bull, the other breeder decided to help by finding several bulls from only the fourth line for him to choose from. Her decision was based on doing her best to maintain purity within the US national herd (more on this later).

The WA breeder chose Saltaire Platinum, he was collected for both the US and Canada, and the rest is history.

Later #1: Godstone Esmeralda is the fourth source of polled. She was a heifer born on a heritage animal 'farm park' from a Woodmagic bull, out of a Woodmagic descended cow. Esmeralda turned out to be polled. Because of the strict supervision of animals in the farm park, and because the manager knew of no irregularities, she was registered and accepted by the English Dexter Society. There have been numerous what if's, and well maybe's, but no proofs of anything other than a mutation. Current DNA testing has shown her grandson Platinum's DNA profile to be similar to (and not suspect) to the English national herd. We are told if there was any hanky-panky, it would show up in the tests. There has been some question that a purebred polled dairy shorthorn bull might have been the sire, but DNA doesn't indicate that. Your guess is as good as anyone else's.

Later #2: In the US, until quite recently, pretty much anything went...the registrar would let you register anything without any checks or balances, or proofs. If you were honest, your records were probably okay, if less than honest, or just plain naive, then they were a crap shoot. There were numerous instances of animals being registered with guess who parents. Now we have dna and the internet, so it's much harder to be sneaky or dumb. I say this by way of pointing out that many of the touted 'pure' animals have hazy backgrounds, but on paper are just fine. Don't get caught up in the paper chase.

We hear a lot about how rare the polled mutation is, and if it takes 10,000 animals to generate one polled, then we don't have a mutation yet, but those who say this fail to realize it could have happened within the first 10 registrations; it doesn't have to wait for 10,000. To prove this, there was a Canadian bred bull in WA state bred to a bunch of American cows, and one heifer didn't grow horns. This wasn't noticed initially, and as the heifer was sold at three months, the breeder didn't see it. At 12 months, the buyer asked the breeder about it, he contacted the Canadian bull's breeder for advice. The bull and cow were both parentage verified, the heifer was parentage verified, vet certificates were provided on both the bull and cow stating the vet in question had dehorned the animals, photos were taken showing the scars of the dehorning, and two government vets gave separate testimony they thought the heifer was polled. She did have 'horns' but they were hollow tiny scurs about an inch long, bent over and crushed looking, with no horn core. Later these fell off, and a new set of 'horns' did develop but were never full size. The breeder tried to get the registration changed but the registrar refused to make the change because he no longer owned the heifer, she said, and it had to come from the current owner (a one-off rule developed by the registrar, by the way). The current owner didn't care, ended up with personal problems, sold the heifer without transferring her to an unknown buyer, and she disappeared into the sunset. This is definitely a sure case of a mutation of some sort of scur, and the heifer would have been almost priceless, but ended up hamburger. Not to say all cases are this clearcut, but you might also want to check out the Cardiff Study for genetic information. All bovines have 99.9% of their genes in common, it's only the few cosmetic ones or extreme yield ones that separate out one breed from another.  They all have tongues and tails and hair and legs, so to say the animal gets it's tail genes from some other breed is just plain stupid; or deliberately argumentative.  There is no way to distinguish the source for these common genes.  

Given the questionable accuracy of the older American records, there are probably lots of animals out there with less 'purity' than those upgrades so many look down on.

Edited to add:  I suppose I should mention Allie's Fling of Grandview.  Naïve owners perhaps, but polled cow from horned parents with some questionable backgrounds.  There is info on her on Irish Dexter Cattle Proboard under the polled threads.  I think I remember someone saying the line died out?
 

[yellowhouse]

Sorry for the late response, I was out of town for the Labor Day weekend and had no cell service in the mountains. Thank you for the in depth response. I will take my time digesting all the info you gave me.

[Deleted]

yellowhouse, You should be aware that the answer you were given Is given by the very person who is referring to her self in the third person. She is the one responsible for the bringing Platinum here. Do you think there is a reason she does not disclose that in her response.

No one at this point not even most of the polled breeders believe in the novel mutation theory that was used as an excuse to bring in Platinum. 

Platinum is the only source of polled in the US. The other one is not relevant no offspring exist from that one now.

There are other upgrades in the US but they were horned. Lucifer is the most common one he was horned but does have polled in his upgrade. There are several others to but they were used much less.

Outlaw was one that was registered as full blood but there were always questions surrounding and more recently a dna test was done on one of his ancestors Shadwell robert and he failed miserably. The Dna test for breed is not that accurate but when one shows up to be a very poor match to the breed then that has to be considered.    

[cddexter]

Mike, your response is EXACTLY why I distanced myself. I can't change the facts.

I can't change that we have been told Platinum's DNA test does not show a specific example of outcrossing. Because you choose not to believe it, I can't change that either.

I can't change that even Andrew Sheppy said Outlaw was purer than pure, in print, 20 years ago, but recent DNA testing shows now he isn't. At the time, Outlaw was a good thing, and lots of people jumped at the chance to add his genetics. I can't change hindsight.

By the same token, and using your arguments, Fermoy and her 'American red' is probably just a mis-registered Tarentaise outcross. The breeder was another one of those with multiple breeds in the same field, and his records are pure fiction. Why not attack her? There's been lots of opportunity for a DNA test result to be published, where is it? Nowhere I've ever found.

By disbelieving one story with reasonable evidence and dna backup, and believing another without either, damages your credibility.

You and the group have created quite a niche for yourselves with your purity bs, but that's all it is. Forty years ago, there were only about 200 people with Dexters in the US, and all of them said the same thing: the senior bull is the sire of anything that hits the ground. Naïve, yes, true, no. Those early records are mostly wishful thinking. An artificial sense of purity may float your boat, but I prefer to work to a more exact science.

We will never agree, but don't knock me when you've done nothing yourself to further the breed. cheers, Carol.

[Deleted]

but you didnt distance yourself you commented and misrepresented your involvement. 
You are taking a page from Kirks book take the facts and twist them so they fit you. The DNA test that was done on Platinum was not a purity. It was a test that looks  at a few of the common breeds to see if they are a match. since he was not a first generation cross and was a ways down from there it is not surprising that it did not show up. 
How do you explain the extreme change in Dexters in just a very short period of time? 

Your insinuation that this "nitche" we have created has somehow benefited us could not be further from the truth. we have taken a lot of heat from those polled breeders over the years while the red polled group raked in the money. Now they have over saturated their market and it has crashed people left with animals that they paid 4 times or more the market value for cant even give them away. and how is it breeding the originals is a "nitche"? 
Like it or not you are responsible for the red polled fad and its crash. Maybe it was not something you had intended maybe it just got out of your control. but it is still on you. 

As far as me furthering the breed. I have done right by Dexters and dont feel the need to try and create a name for myself just for self promotion. 

[cddexter]

Mike, Sandi Thomas is responsible for the red fad, seconded by Cathy Lovejoy. Fred Chesterley is responsible for introducing the polled gene to the US. Don't see my name in there anywhere, do you?

I guess you think bringing in a third red option to offer breeders choice, from a line that was guaranteed 'pure' at the time was the wrong thing to do? Since the US was going to get polled whether it liked it or not, I guess my input to Fred to make sure the polled line at least descended from the best of the four choices was wrong, too?

Maybe you'd like to discredit my saving the Grinstead/Bedford line as another bad thing? Oh, sorry, forgot: ensuring a large number were kept as a genetic pool was another bad thing because I didn't keep them here, slowing going broke because there was no market. At least my animals were quality.

It's really a shame that y'all didn't work to save the Waverley line, and its contemporaries.  That would have given you a huge gene pool to work from.

I understand science says the introgression tests are accurate and don't have to be just one or two generations removed, but that wouldn't suit, would it? 

I think the change I've seen over the last 40 years is due to more savvy owners now breeding for quality traits, instead of just selecting for size, which is how it was back in my early days. 

Go denigrate someone else.

[yellowhouse]

Godstone Esmeralda was the 4th source, who were the other three? In another post, I read Lucifer of Knotting may have a polled line. Can you tell me what line that is?

[Deleted]

yellowhouse, Lucifer was from the English upgrading program and had multiple upgrades in his pedigree 2 of those were Jersey and Angus. Angus are polled. Lucifer was horned so there would be no polled descendants from him but If you want nothing that comes from polled then you would have to include him. I would have to go back and look at him again to get the specifics in his pedigree I have not looked at it in a while. 

[Deleted]

Carol, I am very aware of Sandy Thomas and the red. But she was against polled and breed red horned not red polled so you cant blame her for that. As far as Fred you are the reason for him getting Platinum he would never have done it on his own. It does not matter that the animals were breed by him you were still responsible for it.
Your argument that polled was going to happen weather you had involvement or not does not excuse it. Kind of like a bank robber saying someone was going to do it its not my fault I did it first. and no choosing the least bad option does not make it right.
Just how is it that you saved Bedford? All you did was insure their demise. Shipping them to another country to be cross breed with what ever did not save there genetics they were lost just the same as if you had sent them all to the processor. 
So you think the fact that Dexters are now indistinguishable from red Angus is a good thing for the breed? I took a picture at a red Angus show at a local fair. Showed it to Dexter breeders with no explanation at all and you know what they all thought it was a Dexter show. that is how bad it has gotten.

[yellowhouse]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I remember reading a post on here that said Lucifer of Knotting went berserk and had to be shot. Several months ago I purchased a group of dexters. I did not like the looks of the bull that was for sale but the seller said they would make me a better deal on the group if I took the bull. I agreed to purchase all of them. Got them home, unloaded the cows first in a different pasture then took the bull to the pasture behind my house as I didn’t want him breeding any of my cows. I unloaded him and he went crazy. Bellowing, pawing the ground, horning the ground, running to the hay feeder, hooking and beating it repeatedly with his horns, looking at me from across the fence shaking his head, pawing the ground and bellowing and drooling slobber. Right then and there I decided he was going to the processor as soon as I could get him in. After I read about Lucifer’s temperament I went back and looked at the pedigree of that bull. He had Lucifer 6 times in five generations. You say Lucifer was bred up and his background included Jersey and Angus. Looking back over my years in dairy and beef cattle, Jersey bulls are some of the meanest. When I was going through A.I. training at ABS in wisconsin, they gave us a tour of the bull barns. We came to a little Jersey bull named A-9 Top Brass. He had two rings in his nose with a chain in each ring attached to pipes set in concrete. He also had two chains around his neck with chains running from them to the pipes. I asked the guide why he had all the hardware. Guide’s reply was that bull would just as soon kill you as look at you. He went on to tell us when it was time to collect Top Brass, it took four handlers with long poles attached to the rings in his nose and the chains on his neck fighting him all the way down the alley while staying behind the protection of a heavy pipe railing to get him to the collection arena and back.

[yellowhouse]

I have another question. The discussion seems to revolve around questionable sire lines imported from England. What about the Irish Dexter herd? Do they allow breeding up? Has anyone imported Dexters or Dexter semen from Ireland?

[Deleted]

Yes that is correct Lucifer was shot in a cattle holding facility waiting to be transported to the US. Imagine a bull that was so bad that people use to handling cattle in a professional facility felt they had to shoot him. several of his direct offspring were also like this. some were shot in the filed because of it. there are those that will argue that they had some of his offspring and they were calm. I am sure many were but to have multiple animals with this temperament form one animal is no coincidence .  I am sure he got this from the Jersey in him. Was this the issue with your bull or not. I cant say. I dont know what your level of experience is with cattle/bulls. Bulls are bulls they will paw the ground they will get down and dig with there horns they will try and shred a new hay bale. It does depend on the degree at which they do this. the one thing that would have me concerned is the slobbering that went with all of this that indicates a degree of being extremely worked up. all I can say is if you have worked with bulls you know the difference. I have seen one that was crazy and dangerous. If you are use to bulls and you have seen a crazy one you will know the difference.  

[yellowhouse]

I was the assistant manager of a bull stud outside of San Antonio for three years. We collected beef bulls, processed and froze semen. We also did embryo transfer work. I am very familiar with bull temperament both good and rank. This bull concerned me enough I told my wife who was with me to go back to the house in case the hotwire fence didn’t hold him.

[legendrockranch]

Hi Yellowhouse, I live just outside of San Antonio in Spring Branch.  You are on a board that is kinda...well shell I say one sided. Pro Legacy, which is fine with me but sometimes miss information can be said.  About Luicfer of Knotting who know what went on with him to make him go nuts.  He was a very highly regarded bull in the UK and here in the states.  One of a few that was awarded the English Register of Merit. an award that he was given for siring many daughters that produced a certain amount of milk.  There is one highly regarded breeder in the US that shows pictures of him with his arms around a Lucifer son.  So while I'm sure as with anything else there are probably some bad apples there are some darn good ones also.  Most of these comments about Lucifer usually come from Legacy breeders.  There is so much more that I can go into.  As for polled, let me be upfront, I have been breeding polled (red) Dexters for almost 20 years.  I can give you all the pros and cons of not wanting to breed horned animals, as I started with horned Dexters .  If you are wanted horned animals I would suggest you dehorn them.  A horned animal "knows" it has horns.  In fact it is my belief that if it wasn't for polled Dexters the breed wouldn't be seeing the growth it has. Now I think I saw someone one here post about polled red Dexters not selling well.  I think the cattle market in general is down.  I don't seem to have a problems as I just shipped 4 polled red heifer from Texas to Michigan.  I'm glad you doing your research.  It's best to talk with breeders on both sides of the fence.  Try and go and visit as many farms and ranches as you can.  You are the one that will be around them and breeding them.


Barb

[legendrockranch]

One other thing you should ask Yellowhouse is here in the states when did full parentage verification first start. How can they claim purity of animals that first came to the US and for many years after that are 100% a Dexter.

Barb

[cddexter]

Mike, you do not have the information, but are simply misquoting others. Lucifer was not from the upgrading program, he descended from an experiment conducted by the English society to try to get rid of the dwarf gene. The animals were not experimental, just the project. Lucifer was shot in CourD'Alene Idaho. As far as I know that is in the US. Enough said about your level of knowledge and competence. And that goes for the other misrepresentations.

Yellowhouse: Both the republic and northern Ireland have new associations since my time. You can contact either through their websites if you want information. To the best of my knowledge, there are no irish dexters in Ireland. All descend from English imports sent back to Ireland. Unless they allow animals by inspection as in the old days and/or allow upgrading, too. You'd have to ask.

Cornahir Outlaw was an Irish Dexter, but from English imports many years earlier from the Shadwell herd. I suppose you could use semen from a dwarf Dexter over a native Kerry, and import that, since that's how Dexters sort of started out, along with any other animal that was genetically dwarfed or genetically small in either Ireland or England, and includes the Welsh Black. However, that would raise a new storm of protest (ha).

There are definitely issues with Lucifer and some of his descendants. Sounds like you bought one of them. However, there are many that have no temperament issues at all. When Lucifer was collected, he had two handlers, one of each side with long poles to his nose ring. When they collected Bedford Romarc Rambler, he was led into the shed by the handler with a hand on his neck, directing him by guiding his horns, no halter. Let's talk temperament.

If you head to a uni library, try to find a copy of Ensminger's Beef Cattle Science, a text book for aggies. You may need an older edition. Check out the photos of Dexters. THAT is what Mike wants to promote as legacy Dexters, and even those don't have guaranteed paperwork.

Hope this is helpful. Cheers, c.

[yellowhouse]

Cddexter, interesting the Irish Dexter herd disappeared over time. What happened to them? I recently read an article form a late 1800’s Irish newspaper that talked about concern over the English taking a fancy to Dexters and importing them in groups of twos and threes. The author stated the best breeding stock was being depleted because of this. Our decision to breed horned Dexters is a matter of personal preference. I(and my wife) like the horns. Barb, yes it is true when a cow(or bull) knows when they have horns. In our cow herd, we have one horned cow that is dehorned. She is at the bottom of the pecking order. I hope y’all don’t mind my many questions, just trying to learn.

[legendrockranch]

Yellowhouse, your dehorned cow is at the bottom of the pecking order because she has no defense against the horned animals. It's better to have all horned cattle or all dehorned or polled animals so that they all have the same advantage.  I never liked running the two types together.

[cascade]

All Dexters are "Bred-Up". Dexters started as a mishmash of various British Isle breeds.

The British isles, including Ireland, has had a mix of horned and polled cattle for the past 1000 years or more.

The poll gene is NOT always dominant. The poll gene can hide in horned animals. When horns grow on animals with hidden poll genes, we call those horns "scurs" .

Large populations of "Horned" cattle will almost always have a mix of true horns and scur-horns with hidden poll genes. There will also be occasional smooth polled, or nearly smooth-polled animals born in a "horned breed.

All horned cattle have some polled ancestry, and all polled cattle have some horned ancestry.

The official Dexter breed as a true breed was established in 1890 when the Royal Dublin Society established a registry and set rules for registration.

The Irish rules allowed any cattle of any breed and background to become foundation "Dexters" if they met the breed description which said red or black only, short and thick bodies, no mention of horns. Poll cattle were allowed and some Royal Dublin Society members, including the Harley Herd and Chantry Herd appeared to be working on poll lines.





The English copied the Irish and established their own English version of Dexters. The English added horns to their Dexter show standards in 1900, but the English didn't require horns for registration.

No Dexter registries recorded the horn statuses of Dexters until very recently.

Godstone Esmeralda, born in 1980, has a very pure old pedigree. She traces back to the 1800's Harley Poll and Chantry Poll lines of Dexters. None of her parents, nor grandparents, nor great-grandparents have records of horns, nor photos of horns.




Godstone Esmeralda also descends from Spalpeen, a 1912 polled Dexter bull with scurs.

[Deleted]

If you wish to dig into pedigrees further then Judy has lots of specifics on her website. www.jamshundred.com/ukresearch/luciferofknotting.html

[yellowhouse]

Thanks dexterfarm, I will check out the link.

[jamshundred]

Kirk is misleading you again.   He has posted his desperate theory that he thinks gives his upgraded herd validity.  Nevermind, every scientist who has ever published an article on polled cattle, or any breeder who has bred them will tell you...... polled does NOT carry recessive and pop-up later. 


Now to Lucifer:

There absolutely should be discussion regarding this bloodline and the associations are failing in their duty to their membership by not addressing it. It is absolute truth, I have a list of animals, and the list began when a friend of mine had a Lucifer bull who was the first Dexter of which I was ever frightened. I was convinced he would be killed by that bull, and was relieved when he moved to another state and the bull was sold for butcher. I just thought he was a very dangerous bull, and an anomaly.



Then I began to hear the stories and experience other bulls from that line. For instance, while speaking to a breeder in PA, he told me a story of a young bull that took down his vet. and commented the vet would have been killed if the bull had horns or if he had not been there to stop the attack. I looked up the bull. Yep. Lucifer son. As recently as this summer, I had a well-known breeder relate to me having a young bull who went stark raving logo and had to be destroyed. Lucifer lines. I have a long story about a family in Virginia with whom I was friends. Their Lucifer cow calved a bull calf. They needed him picked up from the farm as they had a petting farm where disabled and challenged children were brought to interact with the animals. I was busy and there were more than a couple requests before I could get there. The bull was loco. He attacked anything that moved. I kept him on a trailer for three days until I could get a butcher appt. I would put hay in the rear door, and slam it shut when he charged, and then run around to the side door to put in a bucket of water before he could charge that direction. This bull mirrored the behavior described to me by Fred Chesterley regarding a bull he saw in Canada, son of Lucifer, who was sold to the USA and used for breeding. Eventually the owner was charged and treed by this bull. A Director in Virginia put down two decendants of Lucifer. ( He just wouldn't listen when I warned him). One of them charged and hit the owner, and another time a differnent one went after his brother and put him over the fence. I have a friend who raises this bloodline. I refuse to help him sell bulls. He has to beef or haul them to the sale barn. I was helping him herd some cows into a barn where they would be channeled into an alley way for loading. . . . . . and out in the paddock a bull went after me and I was saved only by a feed wagon I was able to jump on , and still the bull caught me on the wrist and I was warning him away from me. This is only a few. It is impossible for me to believe that breeders of this bloodline have never witnessed a problematic bull from their breedings. There have been too many reports of them, on FB, on chat groups, to me personally. Are they all loco or aggressive? NO. But one is enough.

Carol D on this thread will confirm for you that the sire of Lucifer was a mean bull.   Or I can go copy posts on other forums where she has said so.

I am going to add . .. . .   I thought the aggression was sex-linked to males only.  Last summer I had occasion to meet a female with concentrated Lucifer bloodlines who was just as mean and scary as the loco bull in Virginia. That experience got me to pondering females from this line that have been in my own herd. I began to wonder about their personality traits I thought were just "herd leader " behavior.  Every cow I've had from these lines will try to take a bucket of grain off your arm.  They are very pushy.  I just thought them "spoiled" or too friendly.  And they are always first at the feeder, shoving the other cows away.   Until last summer I had never seen a Lucifer descended female attack, but maybe others have and that list will grow.

[jamshundred]

Yellowhouse.

Regarding the upgraded bloodlines.


Saltaire Platinum, the polled bull is a GRADE bull.    He has multiple upgrades in his pedigree, and that does not count the phony mutation, which can and will be proven with his DNA markers.  NOTE that his pedigree has an error.  This has been acknowledged by the breeder, as confirmed by Carol Davidson, ( forum post still available)  and DCS is also aware, but seems to have a problem figuring out how to deal with correcting the error.  ( See Homer Rixey Piella A138).  Polled breeders will tell you about the "first" test at UCD, where he was compared to the complete database, where over 90 percent were his own descendants.  That is a flawed result.  There was a second test, compared to only Legacy/traditional animals but the owner of the test has NEVER posted it all over the internet.  Cannot imagine why not.   AND. . . . on this board, there is a disclaimer as to his purity that was written by the head of the lab at the time.   You cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Lucifer of Knotting.   Discussed in other threads and posts.    Descended from an "experimental" breeding program.  His pedigree is in the Legacy World records.

Cornahir Outlaw -    Pedigree is traditional  . . . . .BUT ..  .. . .  .a sample of the semen of his ancestor Shadwell Robert was evaluated at UCD, and the results were published by the DCS/Sheppy in a book that was written on the Symposium held in memory of Beryl Rutherford.  I copied the page and it is on this site.   There were NINE vials of semen tested of historical bulls.  As I recall, eight of them tested in the high 90 percentiles of the test, but Shadwell Robert was a 34.

There are at least two or three other bulls on AI now that were imported and all but Woodmagic have appendix ancestors.

When in doubt. .. . . . go to the Legacy Registry, World files and look up pedigrees, as well as the Legacy categories.    Any polled animal is in the polled category.   Any animal descended from polled is in the HP or horned from polled category.
Any imported animal with appendix ancestors is in the modern horned category.

[cascade]

All Dexters have zillions of non-Dexters in their distant pedigrees. They all started as non-Dexter mutts from 1890-1920. They all have all sorts of British Isles/Irish genetics in them.

All Dexters have some holes in their pedigrees (I can show you the holes in your Dexter's pedigrees, just ask me).

Saltaire Platinum has some distant holes in his pedigree just like all other Dexters, but there is ZERO record of any specific non-Dexter breeds in his background. He is as pure as any other Dexter since they ALL have holes.

The UC Davis test on Shadwell Robert (Outlaw's ancestor) was completely flawed, because their samples of "Dexters" are incomplete.

Lucifer of Knotting (strong dairy traits) came from a dairy herd and was used by dairy herds. Dairy breeders are notoriously bad at breeding, raising and managing bulls. Many dairy breeders kidnap the baby bulls from their mothers and bottle-raise baby bulls (a major mistake). This ruins bulls.

ALL Dexters have some untrustworthy bulls in their distant backgrounds. Behavior genetics involve extremely complex combinations of genes. Those complex gene combinations cannot be passed down through the generations unless breeders work very hard at selecting toward certain behaviors generation after generation.

It's silly to look at a distant pedigree and believe that some certain bull back many generations ago somehow managed to accidentally pass his complex genetic combination down to many descendants, while all the other animals on the pedigree stand idly-by making no contribution . If you believe that, then you have failed very basic genetics.

There is only one way to breed well-behaved bulls and that is to select toward good behavior over several generations and also raise those bulls in a natural herd setting where they can be socialized as part of a herd, that respects farmers.

If you think staring at distant pedigrees will help you make good breeding selection decisions today, then you have already failed.

If you want to breed good animals, make a list of TRAITS that you enjoy, and select and breed toward that list of traits over generations. Staring at old pedigrees is historically interesting (I do it a lot), but it's nearly useless in making good breeding selection decisions.


PS. I've raised about 150 very nice trustworthy Dexter bulls.

[jamshundred]

All Dexters have zillions of non-Dexters in their distant pedigrees. They all started as non-Dexter mutts from 1890-1920. They all have all sorts of British Isles/Irish genetics in them.

ALL CATTLE BREEDS began in the same way.   In the beginning . ... . . there was only one.  Heck, Gradwhol invented 30 plus all my hisself!  Cannot help but wonder about those buyers who paid $35,000 for a "Panda" cow.  Haven't seen many for sale.

Saltaire Platinum has some distant holes in his pedigree just like all other Dexters, but there is ZERO record of any specific non-Dexter breeds in his background. He is as pure as any other Dexter since they ALL have holes.

Your can use your nose to tie your shoes soon.

The UC Davis test on Shadwell Robert (Outlaw's ancestor) was completely flawed, because their samples of "Dexters" are incomplete.

HA HA.   Interesting.  What about the other eight AI historical bulls who tested in the 90's percentile while Shadwell was 34?    'splain dat.  

Lucifer of Knotting (strong dairy traits) came from a dairy herd and was used by dairy herds. Dairy breeders are notoriously bad at breeding, raising and managing bulls. Many dairy breeders kidnap the baby bulls from their mothers and bottle-raise baby bulls (a major mistake). This ruins bulls.

Yes. . . . but. .. . . .  there you go ASSuming again.

ALL Dexters have some untrustworthy bulls in their distant backgrounds. Behavior genetics involve extremely complex combinations of genes. Those complex gene combinations cannot be passed down through the generations unless breeders work very hard at selecting toward certain behaviors generation after generation.

I have NEVER had a traditional or Legacy bull I own even give me a glare!  AND. . .. . . . seeing as how I've been following the internet and chat forums for nearly two decades and talking to breeders longer. . . . .. . . I only know of one traditional bull that attacked an owner. ..  .. . . and some reports on descendents of another imported bull that were difficult.   YOU however, are extremely good at positing theory versus reality.

It's silly to look at a distant pedigree and believe that some certain bull back many generations ago somehow managed to accidentally pass his complex genetic combination down to many descendants, while all the other animals on the pedigree stand idly-by making no contribution . If you believe that, then you have failed very basic genetics.

Let's just start with Daddy, who was known to be a "meany".   Then son was a "meany".  Then grandsons were "meanies".  Then great-grandson's were meanies.    Hmmm.  If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck. walks like a duck . ..  charges like a duck .. . .    it's a MEAN duck.

[cascade]

Amatuer breeders who have a poor understanding of genetics often make that silly mistake of believing that a great grandson gets certain complex compound genetics from a single great grandparent. Genetics don't work that way. Complex compound genetic combinations can't flow down through generations.

Lucifer of Knotting is on many thousands of pedigrees (including the pedigrees of thousands of well-behaved sweet bulls). His name is unfortunate because it stands out and it leads uneducated people to make wrong assumptions. Because Lucifer is on so very many pedigrees, it tricks folks into supporting their confirmation bias.

Complex behavioral genetic combinations can't travel down through generations because 50% of genes are lost each generation and combinations are scrambled.

Old pedigrees are historically interesting (I love researching them), but they are mostly useless in making good breeding decisions. Two animals with identical pedigrees (siblings) can be VERY different from each other.

[jamshundred]

Would you please just stop with the nonsense!  Anyone who has been in cattle for any length of time is aware that dairy bulls are notorious for being dangerous.  Because there have been discussions and warnings.

Dexter cattle are advertised and promoted as being a breed with docile bulls.  You yourself promote your bulls as docile.

The Lucifer line has numerous reports of mean bulls.  I have experienced THREE of them myself and reports of numerous others,  Not rumors or gosssip, actually told to me personally.  There is not a shadow of a doubt in my mind anymore this line produces way too many problematic bulls.  I DO NOT tell any Breeder what to do, but I personally will not sell a bull from this line or help sell one.   What I keep suggesting and advising is that the leadership of the associations who have taken it upon themselves to make decisions regarding the breed.......address this issue.  At least open a discussion.  Appoint a committee.  Print an article.  They have a responsibility to keep someone from being injured or killed by bringing the data and concerns to the breeders.  There are so many people who come into this breed, new to livestock, that are sitting ducks if they get a cute little Lucifer bull that appears to be friendly and petable, maybe a bit pushy at times, but just as sweet as can be, eating grain from their hands, and then comes the day he gets stressed by moving or trailering or separation from his harem, and suddenly a bystander, a child, or the owner’s physical well being or very life is at risk to a bull that goes berserk.  

WHY is there such resistance to a simple discussion so breeders are informed and aware?  Is numerous known attacks not good enough to open a discussion that might save a life-changing injury or even a life?  

YOU, with your blah, blah, blah, are part of the problem......not part of a solution.

[yellowhouse]

Hi Kirk,
I have read your numerous statements about the origins of the Dexter breed, the origin of the polled gene in the Dexter breed, heritability of traits etc. Can you please tell me your education, special training, or other credentials in the study of bovine genetics that qualifies you to make these statements? I am asking out of curiosity. Thanks.

[cascade]

Yellowhouse,

I've studied genetics for 50 years and conducted thousands and thousands of breeding experiments over the decades. I've bred and raised 300 Dexters, thousands of American Guinea Hogs (which I'm credited with having played an important role in saving that breed from near extinction). I've also bred many hundreds of Icelandic Sheep, along with thousands of heritage poultry, and thousands of plants. I do this as a full-time living, not as a hobby.

I've thoroughly studied the history and genetics of Dexters for over 15 years.

I can back all my claims with evidence beyond my own professional opinion.

Are there any specific claims that you are doubting? If so, I'll be happy to share supporting evidence.


PS. Are you going to ask others for their qualifications, or just mine? Also, are you going to challenge all the old myths about Dexters or just accept those myths while only challenging my well-researched claims?