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Post by yellowhouse on Sept 25, 2019 13:49:50 GMT
According the J.L. Lush, the father of modern heredity studies in livestock, temperament in cattle is at least moderately heritable. Therefore if Dexter breeders make a serious effort to include temperament as a selection criteria when choosing individuals for breeding, then they will produce animals with more desirable, calmer and gentler temperaments with each generation. I bring this up because it seems to me the trend in the Dexter breed towards polled is fueled by two things. I would say first and foremost is a fear of horns, second would be a dislike of dehorning(which can be easily done with dehorning paste when the calf is young and the breeder is diligent). I suggest if serious consideration was given to temperament in dexter breeding stock and questionable temperament was culled against, horns become all but a non issue. This of course does not exclude any person’s responsibilty to learn bovine behavior before jumping off into the cow business. A polled Dexter with an attitude can cause serious bodily injury or even death just as well as a horned Dexter can. I feel the trend toward polled and the decline in pure horned pedigrees can be slowed down by selecting for good temperaments in breeding stock and educating new breeders about bovine behavior. A 600-1000 lb mature Dexter should be respected, not feared.....with or without horns.
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Post by cddexter on Sept 25, 2019 15:18:54 GMT
good point. I followed an evaluation system similar to Fry's, but in reverse, as the instigator believed in looking at both the sire--through his dam--and the dam, not just the sire, as Fry does. By the time I retired, my animals all scored in the very high 80s and into the 90s. National herd average is around 75. The system I used had several temperament indicators which I followed. My animals were known for their placid disposition. What system do you use, and what are those indicators? This would be useful info for the common garden owner. cheers, c.
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Post by legendrockranch on Sept 26, 2019 2:40:14 GMT
ADDED later: Well Genebo must not have liked my post below, as it seems he deleted his post that was above mine. So that will leave you all guessing as to what he said. So sad.Quite honestly there are only a few Dexter cattle who's horn's I think are impressive. Otherwise there are several other breeds of animals that have horns almost identical to Dexters. Here is a link to the North American Corriente Association. . Quite a few of these animals have horns very similar to the Dexter even down to the black tips. Here is a link to the association, look at the main picture on their website. corriente.us/the-unique-corriente/Here is a video. of the Corriente Impressive to me are Longhorn cattle. Here is a video of the 2019 Guinness record breaker.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Sept 26, 2019 13:48:20 GMT
Although we raise horned Dexters, we have de-horned most of ours at a young age. We have other things that we do with them at the time, such as tagging, tattooing (now microchipping in the ear) and castration. The handling of these calves, in particular de-horning, gives me a lot of insight to the underlying temperament, and we make notes accordingly in our records how they respond, which later are a factor in our decision to retain, sell, or cull.
I'll relate a story that happened here some years ago. A customer purchased a bull calf and heifer calf from us, and came to pick them up one day. To our surprise, he had also been to another breeder a few hours away just prior, where he had picked up a polled bull of similar age (about 6 months of age). He asked if I would help him administer some vaccinations to all after they had been loaded in the trailer. I said sure, and got in the trailer to help hold the calves while he gave them the shots. The bull calf of ours didn't like the shot and tried to move away from the customer, but for the most part submitted. Now for the polled bull...as I held him, and the customer started to give him the shot, he became very aggressive and wild to the point that he broke loose from my grip and repeatedly head butted the owner into the groin and into the side of the trailer. I kicked the bull away to the best of my ability, and we both scrambled out of the trailer escape door in front. My first words to the owner (who was fairly new to cattle) were "I have tetanus, a bander, and a squeeze chute, would you like me to get it set up?" His response was "no, I think I'll give him a chance". I did my best to explain to him that aggression was going to be this bull's default, and although he could be bribed to behave by extensive handling and treats, I would not trust this bull as he grew older.
I have not heard of or seen this bull since that time. The original owner sold him, and I believe he was sold one or two more times. Not even sure if he's still alive or not. But in my opinion, he was a ticking time bomb. I firmly believe that if he had been a horned bull that we had de-horned, he would have made the "naughty list" at a week of age when we normally de-horn, and would have populated not a pasture at two years of age, but a freezer instead.
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Post by cddexter on Sept 26, 2019 15:08:18 GMT
Hans, you use how the calves handle at 6 months as your guide to temperament? Any other means?
I know judy has talked about traditional cattle that have had bad temperaments, and then there's some of Lucifer's offspring as well. Do you know of any other 'lines'?
I had the most gentle quiet cow you'd ever meet whose calf from Clove Brook lines was crazy, with a really big flight zone. That one seemed to pass down the line, too.
cheers, c.
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Post by legendrockranch on Sept 26, 2019 16:01:54 GMT
Hans, You are always going to get bad apples be it polled or horned. Would you like me to tell you about the horned dun bull several years ago that was shot on the spot here in Texas for goring a cow? Because of that incident do you think I believe all horned cattle are crazy or ticking time bombs? It is your assumption that because polled dexters in certain cases are selling better than horned that polled breeders select for that trait only by passing temperament. Do you not believe the same could be said about horned animals of a certain registry? Come on now Hans. I am quite certain that within any breed there are people who do the right thing and people that don't.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2019 20:46:05 GMT
I do think polled and dehorned breeders do give a pass to animals with bad behavior. I think there is more of a tendency to rank looks over temperament.
I dont agree with the comment that a large flight zone indicates Crazy or aggressive. I bought a cow that was not use to being handled and this cow would run as far away in the pasture as she could get from me for a very long time. when she finally came around to liking me. she was actually a very timid cow with a very nice temperament. I would say that some of my very best tempered cows tend to be skidish around strangers.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Sept 27, 2019 11:40:47 GMT
Hans, You are always going to get bad apples be it polled or horned. Would you like me to tell you about the horned dun bull several years ago that was shot on the spot here in Texas for goring a cow? Because of that incident do you think I believe all horned cattle are crazy or ticking time bombs? It is your assumption that because polled dexters in certain cases are selling better than horned that polled breeders select for that trait only by passing temperament. Do you not believe the same could be said about horned animals of a certain registry? Come on now Hans. I am quite certain that within any breed there are people who do the right thing and people that don't. Barb, Absolutely this bull was kept intact because he was local to the buyer, polled, and could be sold as a 6 month old calf for $2500 instead of raised for 24 months and beefed for $2500. There was no critical evaluation done by the breeder to assess temperament before he was sold to the brand new inexperienced buyer. My point is that the bull calf was not handled much at all prior to the sale, and so there was little to no way (short of looking at parents) to determine what type of temperament he had. Certainly there are horned bulls that have bad temperaments too, selection is selection, after all. Why do you presume that I don't think the same occurs with animals from the "certain registry"? The worst bull calf temperament we ever had here came from Traditional lines. Dam raised, however the dam came from a large herd that primarily sold for beef, and they weren't handled much, and we didn't handle the bull much before he was weaned (and castrated). She was not a very nice cow. We have kept a couple of short leg heifers out of the her, but after the first bull calf experience, we spent a lot more time working with them and they are very easy going cows now, and we can handle their calves immediately after birth with absolutely no sign of aggression by the mothers. Our experience with Dexters and temperament at a young age (and you have to admit we have a pretty large sample to work from) from easiest to most difficult has been: 1) Short leg bulls 2) Short leg heifers 3) Long leg bulls 4) Long leg heifers There are exceptions here and there, but fairly rare, and the exceptions usually are predictable based on the parent's (most often the dam's) temperament.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Sept 27, 2019 12:08:24 GMT
Hans, you use how the calves handle at 6 months as your guide to temperament? Any other means?
I know judy has talked about traditional cattle that have had bad temperaments, and then there's some of Lucifer's offspring as well. Do you know of any other 'lines'?
I had the most gentle quiet cow you'd ever meet whose calf from Clove Brook lines was crazy, with a really big flight zone. That one seemed to pass down the line, too.
cheers, c. Carol, I use the first 6 days for my first impression, not months. I'll then gauge how they respond to me when I do our daily herd check. Any time we handle a calf, we make notes about how it responds. By now, I know the "hot" parents (it's almost always the cow, because bad bull temperaments don't last here). And "hot" is relative to us. It means don't go into a 12 x 12 stall after the cow has calved unless you have the cow restrained in some way. I have 2 cows (down from 5 last year) out of over 120 that meet that criteria at this time. A majority of the cows will let us check the sex immediately after calving, and allow us to check their udder to make sure all 4 teats are functioning properly, and even allow us to guide the calf to the teat (we do this when it is 1 AM in the morning and we want to go to bed knowing the calf has had their first colostrum). A quiet herd makes for quiet calves. Today, I'll go out in the orchard/pasture, reach up into the apple trees, and pluck an apple. I'll almost immediately be surrounded by a few dozen cows in that pasture, all wanting their apple. The calves observe this and learn that I'm not a predator to be scared of. Those that still run from me are identified, and then subjected to a more extensive program of socialization after weaning. Of course, bull prospects are only out of our top cows and bulls, and then we evaluate their temperaments before making a decision. As you know, it gets harder and harder to make those decisions after a number of years of selection and improvement, especially when you look at photos of what others consider to be breeding prospects knowing that you are castrating far superior bulls, other than they are not homozygous polled, or A2/A2, or the right color. My crazy aggressive cow after calving was out of Ace of Clove Brook. Another not real nice cow was out of Ace of Clove Brook, but she wasn't aggressive at calving. However one of our bulls out of Ace of Clove Brook, Wakarusa Leif, is a very well behaved and mannered bull. Certainly the handling he received probably played a role, but I expect Patti also used a lot of other criteria in her decision to keep him intact. Some long time breeders are very good at handling and evaluation, selection, etc..., but there are also some long time breeders that I wouldn't ever consider purchasing from (especially a bull), based on their selection criteria and information I've been able to glean from their online posts or social media. They may be strong in some aspects, but extremely weak in others.
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Post by jamshundred on Sept 27, 2019 17:08:39 GMT
NO, I have not "talked about traditional cattle with bad tempers". I have only ONE story of a traditional bull that attacked an owner. I also know of two Hedgehog offspring, one a rumor, one a fact. If someone wants to tell me stories I will certainly make note of them.
I have been breeding for 25 years. I have, one some occasions had over 100 horned Dexters in my pasture, which I worked around ALONE. I have never had a bull on my farm threaten me. My original herd bull, even at the age of 20 when he died ( a dwarf by the way), was the most comical, easy-going, intelligent, ( at times mischievous) and endearing animal. Still love that bull.
Dexter cattle, including the males of the breed, have always been advertised and marketed as a DOCILE breed. This has always been my experience of the traditional and Legacy animals. When I hear or read stories of people with Dexters that are problematic, I always wonder why ( and I always look up the bloodline), because my entire experience for years is quite the opposite. I always joke and tell people you have not known fear until you are standing at the bottom of a hill with a feedbucket and you see a stampede of horned Dexters galloping in your direction. ( My feed building is at the bottom of an incline and this is a joke based on reality).
Judy
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Post by cascade on Oct 29, 2019 17:33:13 GMT
Temperament is definitely heritable, but how the inheritance works is VERY complex because temperament is multifaceted and highly polygenetic. Many different genes in certain combinations contribute to all the nuances of temperament. Some features/genes in Dexters (like red vs black) are fairly simple and can be easily inherited because single genes can easily be passed down, intact, through many generations. But complex polygenetics, like temperament genetics, can't easily be passed down through multiple generations because the genetic combinations are ripped apart and reformed each generation. In a linebred herd, over time, one can select for consistent good temperament. Linebreeding helps stabilize genetic combinations down through the generations. In our line-bred closed herds of heritage breeds on our farm, temperament has been our #1 most important selection criteria for going on 16 years. Our mostly poll Dexter herd has excellent behavior genetics. In the past, we culled heavily based on temperament, and now we have predictably good temperaments. We don't castrate any males (bulls, boars, rams), because we want to see the natural behavior of every male. We cull mothers who throw sons with less than ideal behavior, and this results in having a line with very well-behaved males. I currently have about 17 uncastrated Dexter bulls, many of which will be used for beef. Our herd is VERY friendly, and gathers in closely around us when we spend time with them. I do intensive strip-grazing of our working herd of about 60 Dexters, moving the cows 3-4:times per day. I also hand-kill flies off the backs of our Dexters which involves me clapping my hands over a group of flies, squashing 10-50 flies with each clap. I work VERY closely with the herd. I carry hay to them 3 times per day in winter and again I'm constantly surrounded by well-behaved Dexters. In my herd of 60 mostly polled Dexters, I have one Dexter with horns, her name is "Spur". I love her, but I get accidentally bumped by her horns several times per year, and it hurts. When I'm close to Spur, moving cows or killing flies, I have to pay attention to her horns to keep from getting accidentally bumped. If I had more than 2 or 3 cows with horns it would be a nightmare, because my Dexters are so very very friendly and want to be close to me. I need naturally hornless Dexters BECAUSE they are so friendly. I think de-horning is unnecessarily cruel and a time-waster. But If I only had a few Dexters as pasture-ornaments, then I might want horns because they are cool to look at, but I'd have to teach the animals to not be so close to me.
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Post by jamshundred on Oct 31, 2019 15:59:26 GMT
I have never been "bumped". The cows know they have horns and I know they have horns. I believe horned cattle are actually safer than polled. Horned cattle are like having a woodstove. .. .. . you teach yourself and children to be cautious and safe around it. If you are being bumped. . .. . it is YOUR fault. . .not the fault of Spur. I still have a limp and limited mobility in my left ankle/foot and I still have to be in close proximity to my Dexters when putting out forage, and I marvel at how the animals manage to avoid me ! !
I am POSITIVE bad temper is inheritable. I just added ANOTHER Lucifer bull to the growing list of really, really, bad tempered males. AGAIN. . . . .I implore the leadership of this breed to get really serious about this issue. I DO NOT believe breeders who are breeding from this bloodline only are not aware. Don't believe it for one minute. If there is any cover-up by leadership of this breed .. . . and someone gets maimed or killed because there is NO discussion or warnings. . . .then hey should be legally libel.
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Post by cascade on Nov 1, 2019 3:26:55 GMT
Since temperament is due to a combination of many, many genes in a certain combination, and since those combinations can't easily flow down through generations, then a poorly behaved bull gets his various temperament genes from scores of ancestors. It's not smart to attribute temperament to a specific ancestor. Genetics don't work that way.
Yes, horned Dexters are like red-hot wood stoves (if you're careful, you won't get burned). But I have a herd of 60 polled teddy bear Dexters, who nuzzle me and compete for attention and that makes me lazy and un-careful because they are so very friendly. Horns are great to look at, but they require attention or you'll get burned. (I have tusked boars that require attention).
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2019 14:12:40 GMT
Yes, horned Dexters are like red-hot wood stoves (if you're careful, you won't get burned). But I have a herd of 60 polled teddy bear Dexters, who nuzzle me and compete for attention and that makes me lazy and un-careful because they are so very friendly. Horns are great to look at, but they require attention or you'll get burned. (I have tusked boars that require attention). BS I have 75 head of mostly horned. there are a handful of dehorned and polled in there. your statement is exactly how people get killed regularly by there polled cattle. horned or not the shear size and power of cattle compared to a person means they can easily kill you accident or intentional. your statement "compete for your attention" is especially disturbing. there is a real trample danger when cows are pushing around you.
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Post by cascade on Nov 11, 2019 17:00:21 GMT
If you select toward friendly true-short Dexters, the risks are greatly reduced. Here is our herd of intact, true-short (non-chondro) Dexter bulls, including our senior sire. You can see that trampling risk is minimal. Dexters are supposed to be one of the safest breeds of cattle and most easily managed by beginners. Compact frames, friendly dispositions, and lack of horns helps reduce risks greatly.
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Post by brynmawr on Nov 14, 2019 2:51:11 GMT
Cascade,
How old is that senior sire? And at what age do you usually butcher and how much pounds of meat do you get out of your steers or bulls when you do butcher?
I was thinking of your cattle the other day. I recall you mentioning that your dexters are less variable than other herds due to your methods of selection. Do you take height and weight measurements of your cattle throughout their growing? Would you consider posting that information or is anyone else willing to share the same information.
I wonder about a lot of these questions when considering what some focus on in dexter cattle. I have seen in person dexter cattle so short that in the winter a cow could not escape her udder constantly dragging through the snow. This is certainly not what I want to raise. I don't want a whole herd of pet barn cows. Nor do I want cows so small it isn't worth the money raising them, managing them, hauling them and then paying to butcher them.
The size dexters I have I don't see this as a problem. But I am curious how other people view this subject.
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Post by cddexter on Nov 16, 2019 16:50:59 GMT
Hi, I didn't have weighing equipment for older animals, but I did use the old bathroom scales for calves. The range of weights was 42 - 47 lbs, heights 23 - 27 inches. Everything ended up in the 40-43" range as mature cows. One cow with O'Briar Hill in it was 45". I slaughtered at different ages, but ended up at 24 -27 months as best, with carcass weights of ~450-600 lbs. Does this help? cheers, c.
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Post by brynmawr on Nov 18, 2019 12:25:25 GMT
Hi, I didn't have weighing equipment for older animals, but I did use the old bathroom scales for calves. The range of weights was 42 - 47 lbs, heights 23 - 27 inches. Everything ended up in the 40-43" range as mature cows. One cow with O'Briar Hill in it was 45". I slaughtered at different ages, but ended up at 24 -27 months as best, with carcass weights of ~450-600 lbs. Does this help? cheers, c. Thank you for a direct response. I am curious how different the weights are in different lines. I'm not so sure I want to focus on selecting for the smallest Dexter's and loosing the ability to market them for beef as I view that as the best avenue to make reliable money.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2019 14:49:25 GMT
when you say carcass weight you must be talking about live weight? I butcher around 27-30 month. Generally just over 300# hanging. A few hit 400. I have never had one hit 600#. I just butchered a mature bull and he was a big boy his hanging weight was 579 #
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Post by cddexter on Nov 18, 2019 18:09:10 GMT
mike, I know the difference between live and carcass weight. I said carcass, I meant carcass!! Dare I suggest that your hanging weights are light because you aren't selecting for muscle? Go take a look at RdoubleD Shmoozer, basically my breeding, and check out the yield traits. And, no, you cannot claim it's the polled gene. It's Magician and the Ramblers that make him outstanding. With Madrigal behind him, he also puts out daughters with at least four gallons of milk a day with well supported udders. It's called breeding for quality, not just selecting for old lines. Check out Romarc Filander, Rambler II, Rambler IV, Rambler V, and even Galaxy: all look almost the same: excellent length, excellent muscle, excellent milk traits, fantastic temperaments. THAT is what selective breeding should be about.
BM: I tried different ages, from 12 months to 30 months. All mammals go through the same cycle: birth, baby fat, long bone growth, muscle development, fat. I found with Dexters that at 12-14 months, they were just moving from long bone growth into muscle development, so no point in slaughtering that early, as I missed the meat. I found to get marbling and cover fat, I had to wait until around two years. The higher weight was from mature animals (bulls up to eight years). Having said that, there is a benefit to having dwarfs (HA) because the bone growth phase appears much shorter, so by 14 months, the animal is already into the muscle and starting the fat growth. Maybe someone who had dwarfs can answer this one. cheers, c.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2019 18:06:10 GMT
You said " I slaughtered at different ages, but ended up at 24 -27 months as best, with carcass weights of ~450-600 lbs. Does this help? cheers, c." it was not until I questioned you about it did you say 8 years old. 450 is still large for a 24 month old. No I do not select for bigger and bigger nor do I select for smaller and smaller. I select for Dexters how they should be.
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Post by cddexter on Nov 20, 2019 6:56:20 GMT
weedy?
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Post by brynmawr on Nov 20, 2019 17:30:36 GMT
Ok I checked out RdoubleD Shmoozer. He is Definitely a big bull. Though, I am interested in seeing an example of a particular bull out of your lines that had the weights you mentioned at butcher prior to the addition of any UK imported semen ( no polled or Lucifer, ECT). If people had selectively bred for good milk traits and beef prior to the new UK additions than those traits are still all present in the traditional lines if harnessed properly.
I am open to hearing people's opinions from different perspectives. I do not know all the history of the divergences of the Dexter registries and I am not sure I would have time to sift through it all.
But,I do wonder cddexter, what is your personal interest in this forum? If you have polled lines and helped bring them in(correct me if I'm wrong) what is your interest in this forum that focuses on traditional lines? Are you interested in preserving them or are you more interested in the history?
I will repeat what I have repeated in the past, I am asking these questions in sincerity, for no contentious reason. I want to select for good traits in my animals and am interested in what I can glean.
By the way regarding the idea of not selecting for traits in dexters, this is impossible. Either man will with thought select for beneficial traits or animals will indiscriminately be selected by the natural elements. If dexters were left untouched in Maine or in Texas, in many generations to come would demonstrate traits particularly different from one another. I'm looking to make my Dexter's work well for my farm and of course other farms too.
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Post by cddexter on Nov 20, 2019 20:57:29 GMT
My lines were based on Grinstead animals imported in 1949, plus some Clove Brook, Yellowbird and Woodmagic. I tried as best I could to keep the Grinstead line true by breeding to an outside bull, selecting one calf and then using it back across the herd, then a grandson, so the introduction of outside genetics was limited. I did this with Saturn of Knotting mostly, although I did try Outlaw briefly. I did try to keep lines true (didn't use Lucifer, for instance), and do believe in maintaining early genetics. I know I've been criticized for sending my cream to New Zealand instead of keeping it here, but at the time, there was zero market here, and I didn't have the money to maintain almost 100 dexters and have no buyers. I figured sending them to NZ was a way to preserve the line, even if it did get crossed eventually (the original terms were no crossing for five years, and I provided good semen at my cost, to help that along).
I don't know how tall Mooch was, but my bulls were mostly in the 44-6" range. I know Monica liked taller animals. but if you look at late photos of Rambler II, he looked huge but was only 44". His size was misleading because of the incredible body depth and heavy muscling. The muscling came from the genetics I had through very selective breeding and heavy culling, not from introduced 'upgrading'.
I did help Fred find a polled bull, since he was going to do it anyway, but didn't breed polled myself. I dehorned everything.
I find the attitude that anything with old genetics is wonderful and quality takes second place, quite discouraging. I don't see why breeders can't work within the genetics they have, but breed better quality than just saying the animal is wonderful because it has no introduced genes. We've all seen the 'dual purpose' udders that one legacy type promotes: I wouldn't have those on the farm. Reminds me of the WA cattlemen growing Wagyu for the Japanese market. Instead of selling Japan what they wanted, they tried to sell them what they had. Failed.
You mention Texas and letting animals just breed. TAM did that, and I saw some of the results. 52" young bulls with no muscling to speak of...
I also have real problems with people claiming dwarfism isn't a lethal defect. If you want to artificially modify the height, fine, but at least know what you are doing, and manage it, and be honest about it, don't hide it with cute euphemisms. imo.
And, while I'm at it, I think trashing what everyone else has as a way of promoting what the writer thinks, is pretty destructive and petty. I support preserving old lines, but not at the expense of claiming everything else is just a mutt because it might have a black gene from an angus eight generations back, or an ear shape gene from a Hereford 10 generations back. Not science, just abuse.
cheers, c.
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Post by brynmawr on Nov 21, 2019 22:37:23 GMT
"the attitude that anything with old genetics is wonderful and quality takes second place, quite discouraging. I don't see why breeders can't work within the genetics they have, but breed better quality than just saying the animal is wonderful because it has no introduced genes. "
I agree all judgements of quality should be based on set standards unbiased by oppinion or assumption.
Legacy/Traditional adherents should regonize quality and get rid of bad genetics. I believe some are trying to build back up numbers first. I understand why they feel this way. But that shouldn't continue at the expense of quality. I personally feel that if a line has become so dwindled down that extreme means have to be used to bring it back and in the end the quality will suffer for the long term, it's not worth preserving.
Likewise I think people with out crossed herds should recognize that is exactly what they are and if those genes are now present in their herd you can't pretend it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if people use the word mutt or not, facts are facts. An outcrossed animal can have excellent weight gain and a perfect udder but it's still an outcrossed animal. No insult. I feel bad for people who regret the direction they unknowingly took in their herd, but can't turn back the tide. I have a polled line 2 year old heifer I will be butchering shortly. She was hand raised and is of great temperament. She is really rather a bit of a pet. She will be the first and last Dexter with polled lines on my farm. If I kept her I'd more than likely end up keeping all the good tempered offspring just like her. I can't imagine how difficult that would be if I had a whole herd to consider.
I appreciate the response that Dexter Farm and cddexter gave though you both may have different herds. If people stand behind what they raise they should not be ashamed to share the weight at slaughter. I would not buy a Dexter from someone who wanted to shroud that information.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2019 16:37:44 GMT
"the attitude that anything with old genetics is wonderful and quality takes second place, quite discouraging. I don't see why breeders can't work within the genetics they have, but breed better quality than just saying the animal is wonderful because it has no introduced genes. " This is not our attitude this is Carols dig at us. I am very very selective more so with the bulls than the cows. I have used a lot of bulls here mostly from our own breeding. All of them had something to offer and all were moved on or butchered for reasons. I have a lot of cows none of them perfect there is no such thing as a perfect cow. They all have something to offer and dont need to be perfect. Same with Carols dig at a breeder who once posted a picture of a cow with a very large udder and she did not like the suspension on it so she decide to continually ridicule him about it. It is clear many breeders want to change the Dexter into looking no different than any other generic commercial cow breeding for more and more beef. I have no use for this type of improvement as they call it. Once you have made them indistinguishable from every cow out there what have you got. Nothing special that still cant perform like the commercial cows.
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Post by cddexter on Nov 22, 2019 21:46:14 GMT
Mike, I must have hit a nerve. I remember Billy Watkins, as a director, saying every bull should be registered because the breed was rare and everything should be kept. When I say zero selection criteria, other than height, I mean it. There is no reason, after all the special attributes like hardiness, and calving ease, and (mostly) temperament, that owners can't spend the time selecting for the reasons to have livestock in the first place: get enough milk, get enough meat. Since it costs to feed an animal, it should make sense that if you can work within the genetics, that one should try to get better udder attachment and quantity, and more muscle, so the yield is higher, giving the owner a better return. This propensity to claim poor conformation is acceptable is bs. And, the udder posted by the legacy supporter wasn't big, it was tiny, with virtually no support, it looked like a small brown paper bag with ugly teats, but because it was what he had, he claimed it was dual purpose, ie didn't put out a lot. And I wasn't the only one to complain. Don't pick on me. Every time some cow has good production, off the rest of you go, claiming the owner is trying to turn it into a commercial animal. I guess my legacy qualified pure grinstead cow that put out 4-5 gal/day with udder suspension to die for should have been put down because she had too much milk? Piffle. Select for hip to pin length, capacity, muscle mass, good udder suspension, clean front end, wide muzzle, and it won't be long before your yield figures are up--within the existing 'pure' gene pool. cheers, c.
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Post by cascade on Nov 22, 2019 22:41:29 GMT
Brynmawr, Here is my senior purebred Dexter sire, "Cascade's Ambassador" at age 3. He's non-chondro, homozygous-polled, A2/A2, DNA tested for excellent tenderness genetics and large ribeye size genetics, 950 pounds in this photo. 100% grass-fed. Here is one of his key ancestors on our farm "Cascade 's Shade" still going strong at age 14 They meet the original 1890 Irish Dexter Breed Standard perfectly. I can trace their poll genes back to the 1890's foundation of Dexters.
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Post by brynmawr on Nov 23, 2019 12:10:25 GMT
"the attitude that anything with old genetics is wonderful and quality takes second place, quite discouraging. I don't see why breeders can't work within the genetics they have, but breed better quality than just saying the animal is wonderful because it has no introduced genes. " "This is not our attitude this is Carols dig at us. I am very very selective more so with the bulls than the cows. I have used a lot of bulls here mostly from our own breeding. All of them had something to offer and all were moved on or butchered for reasons. I have a lot of cows none of them perfect there is no such thing as a perfect cow. They all have something to offer and dont need to be perfect. Same with Carols dig at a breeder who once posted a picture of a cow with a very large udder and she did not like the suspension on it so she decide to continually ridicule him about it. It is clear many breeders want to change the Dexter into looking no different than any other generic commercial cow breeding for more and more beef. I have no use for this type of improvement as they call it. Once you have made them indistinguishable from every cow out there what have you got. Nothing special that still cant perform like the commercial cows. " I was not implying that all legacy/ traditional breeders aren't looking for quality, just that preservation may take for front due to dwindled numbers and the desire to restore a line. On a temporary basis, I understand why people are doing this. I see legacy/traditional breeders who do care about quality. However I have also heard a polled breeder state that he was concerned that when the introduction of polled was bred in, quality was sacrificed because that was the focal point of selection. The problem can go both ways. Its not a though Carol don't have any value in what she is stating. But, Production always must be balanced with hardiness in my opinion, I'm just open to considering all angles. I raised dairy goats and I know what can happen to an animal if they are over productive in only one capacity, their health falters.
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Post by cascade on Dec 4, 2019 4:01:42 GMT
The poll gene has always been in the Dexter breed. In the 80's and 90's, a few excellent breeders simply sought out the existing (somewhat rare) poll gene within the breed and propagated it. These were top breeders and they created some excellent polled animals. Here is the first bull our farm acquired in 2004. Belle Fourche Frasier, red, homozygous polled A2/A2. Here is the is one of his first calves... Cascade's Shade Here is our second key polled bull, Cascade's Bracken, a linebred son of Frasier and Shade Here is our next key bull, Cascade's Goldrush, homozygous-polled and A2/A2, a son of Bracken Here is our current key bull, "Cascade's Ambassador", homozygous polled, A2/A2, linebred descendent of the above Dexters. He meets every word of the original 1890 Irish Dexter Breed Standard. All of these above animals are still thriving and producing. Super healthy genetics.
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