|
|
Post by wvdexters on Dec 5, 2014 15:32:32 GMT
Hello everyone. I have been away for a while because of a difficult family situation but I would like to reply to Kwin's post. First off, before I begin I would like to say that I don't mind your anonymity here, if it makes you feel more comfortable. And I hope that one day you will feel that way. Truth is first time I saw your name, you really got my attention. They're my initials, well sorta....
As for the business side of it. Yes, it is definitely there for all of us I think. Love does go a long way, but we must also "make" enough to cover our expenses to make it possible. Whether in money earned through sales of breeding stock, steers or beef sales, or in just providing beef for our own use, there is a great deal of money/value in that too.
Genetic diversity is so important to any breed. Ours is a small breed, the numbers aren't large especially when compared to the big commercial breeds. So it is vital for us to "recognize the need" to save the old bloodlines that are disappearing. I say "recognize the need" because many breeders aren't interested in breeding the traditional lines themselves. And that's OK, but if we all can recognize the need to save them we can work together instead of tearing ourselves and the breed apart. But with this comes the need to answer the word why?
Now there is also another type of diversity. Diversity in the animals themselves, the types. Here is where we run into trouble with the Dexter Breed. I believe the Dexter Breed is becoming too diverse. We are losing what makes a dexter a dexter. Another way of putting in, Diversity is great but it MUST be within the Breed description. And that doesn't mean just rewriting it each time someone wants to bring in something new. The breed was created yrs ago. A herd book was created, guidelines/standards/ a description (whatever you want to call it) were set. It is up to all of us to follow them.
As for size, I agree that this is a very important issue, and needs to be addressed by the membership and by the ADCA itself. We have guidelines for size written down for all to see, and they are being ignored. And unfortunately the rewards are high for doing so. You only have to look at the recent show winners to see this. Dexters are supposed to be the smallest European breed of cattle. Look around and see what is being bred out there. We NEED to get back to breeding within our own guidelines. Isn't that why we all chose to breed Registered Cattle in the first place?
Yes, I believe the phenotype is definitely changing. When you look at historical photos and even those of fairly recent yrs you can see a huge difference in the "look". Many of the modern dexters I'm seeing now bare little resemblance to earlier examples. While the most obvious difference is the lack of horns, there is also a difference in overall size, and in the overall shape of the animal. And this is not just the difference between carrier(old)/ non-carrier(modern) photos as it keeps being explained away. Many of the new type more closely resemble the beef breeds especially angus. The neck, shoulders, shape of the head. The heavy musculature IMO. The dual/tri purpose traits are being bred out. I am a member of a few "Dexter sites" on Facebook as well as a general "Cattle/livestock" site too. I'm finding more and more often that I have to read the post to identify the breed of the animal for sale. The Dexters aren't standing out anymore. ex. Last week I saw a polled bull, red in color for sale and thought to myself now there's a big boy for sale; assuming he was another oversized modern dexter bull. I was so surprised when I read he was a red angus; not a dexter at all.
The fact that one bull is found in so many of our pedigrees alarms me. The fact that this bull does not meet the requirements to be entered into the herd book at all alarms me far more. It doesn't matter what his attributes were or were not. There are many fine and many not so fine bulls out there, but they MUST meet the requirements to be a Registered Dexter Bull. However we feel about the polled issue. He was ineligible. There is and was no difference in him and in the many other mixed breed stock running around on farms in this country. While many I'm sure are absolutely beautiful, well built, small in size, having excellent conformations, and wonderful temperaments, they are not suitable breeding partners for our Dexters.
...... Now the mess..... Throw out the 85% or so descendants? Of course not!!!!! But, if we stop spinning and really look at it...where are we. 15% roughly are not involved. We have an opportunity to still Save the lines.
Polled is here to stay. They are popular with breeders and aren't going anywhere. But I believe it is important for the facts about polled and how it came to be in the Dexter herd to be brought to light and openly and honestly discussed. Only then will this huge issue that has been dividing us finally be laid to rest. I personally believe that the majority of the animosity between the horned/polled breeders is based in fear. Fear that the animals that they love and are so proud of, (and the monetary investments they've made) will be devalued when the facts come out and everyone realizes the truth of the situation. Fear that they will somehow lose their full registration status and corresponding sales. Rather than deal with the situation head on and informed, we as an association choose to put our heads in the sand. And each yr we do this, the rift gets larger.
I hope I've stuck to the intended topics, as for handling them. We just need to be open and honest, and post honestly. Not just for the Shock Value of it. Using a name that is disrespectful by design on a forum is childish and unacceptable in any situation. It reflects poorly on the person involved and makes it very difficult to take that person seriously in any way. Perhaps bswatcher could rejoin with a more appropriate name.
As for moving on from here - Yes, this is our breed. And you are right in that it would be silly to just sit around lamenting over the situation. But this is not the case. There are no "sitters" here. The proof is that 15% are not involved. Traditional breeders are still hanging on and protecting the remnants of the herd. We are working very hard and have endured a lot of fallout because of it. (In fact if you think about it the term "traditional breeders" is new, unheard of until quite recently. Up until now every Dexter breeder was a Traditional breeder.) We are working hard to get the word out and there is a growing interest in the traditional animals.
The barn doors may have been opened and yes, there may be animals running amok through the countryside ... but wouldn't it be silly to go and "shoo out" those that remained in their stalls, and then throw our hands in the air.
|
|
|
|
Post by legendrockranch on Dec 5, 2014 17:02:03 GMT
Hans, REMOVE THE PICTURE OF ME AT ONCE.
You know who I am you could have asked......... But no, what you did was you stole it from my website. |
|
|
|
Post by lakeportfarms on Dec 5, 2014 18:47:02 GMT
Hans, REMOVE THE PICTURE OF ME AT ONCE.
You know who I am you could have asked......... But no, what you did was you stole it from my website. Ok, Barb. Done. Obviously Kirk had no response, so he contacted you immediately by phone or something to ask you to log on and have it removed. Too bad that it has to be so one sided. Kirk can throw out false facts, pretend he does something he really doesn't do, criticize others for their breeding choices. I'm only trying to point out the hypocrisy in his posts. Obviously it was pretty effective given the private messages I've received in just a short couple of hours (all favorable). |
|
|
|
Post by legendrockranch on Dec 5, 2014 19:05:00 GMT
No Kirk DID NOT contact me, however other people did. She is just one animal out of a herd of many that you chose to make an example of.
|
|
|
|
Post by cascade on Dec 5, 2014 21:37:29 GMT
There are a lot of Dexters that are too tall in my opinion and we all need to work hard over time to gradually bring down the size of any too-tall dexters. Where did those too tall of genetics come from? They certainly didn't come from the truly short (non-chondro) Saltaire Platinum at 42" with tons of Woodmagic in him. The too-tall dexters primarily came from their Kerry Cattle background and via breeders who used the chondro-gene to hide those tall genetics over the decades (instead of correcting them). Breeders like Woodmagic, Hiyu/Brightlea and a few others have bred some AMAZING animals with truly short genetics. After more than a decade of hard work on our farm, and selecting for truly shorter genetics, the TRUE size of our animals is dropping. The last two primary bulls we created and used were 42" and 43" (non-chondro) at 3 years of age, a good amount shorter than our original purchased bull, and they are throwing calves with much shorter legs (all non-chondro). We're getting a good number of girls in the 38" to 41" range at 3 years (all non-chondro). Here's the only horned girl on our farm (She has Saltaire Platinum on her pedigree 17 times)... She's 37" at age 2 and will likely be about 38" at age 3 (non-chondro). We breed for polled but used a true-short non-chondro heterozygous polled bull (of our own breeding) for a while and got a few horns... We don't dehorn. We've got others like her, but they are polled. Her head shape and face are different from her polled parents and polled siblings because of her horns.  If I was breeding for traditional, black and horns and truly short, I'd want this true-short bull (he's non-chondro)... He's not ours but I sure think he's an amazing non-chondro bull and he'll breed true.  dextercattle.org/pedigreedb/ponyweb.cgi?horse=022743 |
|
|
|
Post by genebo on Dec 6, 2014 0:33:36 GMT
Hans, Platinum was 45" tall, which is an inch above the breed standard. His proponents have been lobbying for years to have the height standard increased to accomodate him and his descendants.
He was used to inseminate Wee Gaelic Ms Fermoy a number of times. It is her genes that contributed to the height of their descendants. Her height was well within the height standard. When she came to my farm she was 18 years old and was 41" tall. That is an inch below the maximum height standard. She surely was shorter at the measurement age of 3 years, but there are no records that reveal this.
When she came here in late 2008, she had been bred to Saltaire Platinum 6 times and his son once, then by Lucifer's son twice. She hadn't had a calf since early 2005. She was brought here to see if she could still be bred. My little shortie bull bred her 4 times, but she could not carry them and would come open by the second month. A veterinary exam revealed the reason. She had a fibroid uterus that they guessed had been caused by having at least one large calf. That is why we ended up flushing her of embryos in order to finally get offspring from her that didn't carry any of the 1990's imported bulls in their pedigree. Three of the flushed embryos were successfully birthed and none of them was large. Eve was right in the size range of all other calves born here, 27 to 35 pounds. Obviously Ms Fermoy didn't carry genes that would contribute to having large calves.
Right here in Virginia, one of the first of Platinum's red, polled descendants to come here sired a bull calf that the owner advertised to sell, with the proud claim that he had weighed 65 pounds at birth! I was shocked! Not just that such a large calf could be born to a Dexter, but that someone would think it was a good thing!
No wonder Ms Fermoy had a fibroid uterus. It was probably full of stretch marks.
|
|
|
|
Post by wvdexters on Dec 6, 2014 1:53:51 GMT
Kirk, I do find it interesting that you are blaming the "too-tall" genetics that we are seeing everywhere now in our breed all on the chondro pos animals and their breeders. Funny, but if that were truly the case, wouldn't we be seeing the size going down now that so many breeders are maintaining chondro-free herds? And they are so proud of it. It's written so boldly on their web pages, and in their advertisements when they have animals for sale. And yet, the size of their animals aren't going down; in fact they are getting bigger. Hmmm.
And from your description of where the Dexter breed came from. The relationship between Kerry cattle and Dexters?? Geesh, You mean Dexters are really Kerrys who carried the chondro gene? and a whole breed of cattle came from them?? Really?? Of course, yes they didn't know about the gene, they couldn't have. But they described it, didn't they ... using words like short-legged, dish-shaped faces. Hmmm.
LOL!! This is exactly what we have been saying for yrs. Thank you for agreeing. But I must admit I am a little confused since you have posted the exact opposite of this so many times before. You do work yourself into circles.
|
|
|
|
Post by cascade on Dec 6, 2014 5:20:48 GMT
Saltaire Platinum, 42" at 3 years - NON-CHONDRO See it for yourself He's one of the shortest non-chondro bulls ever in the AI catalog, 99% of calves from his descendents (out of over 100 calves born on our farm), have been unassisted easy births even out of 1st time heifers.  |
|
|
|
Post by cascade on Dec 6, 2014 6:07:05 GMT
Kirk, I do find it interesting that you are blaming the "too-tall" genetics that we are seeing everywhere now in our breed all on the chondro pos animals and their breeders. Funny, but if that were truly the case, wouldn't we be seeing the size going down now that so many breeders are maintaining chondro-free herds? And they are so proud of it. It's written so boldly on their web pages, and in their advertisements when they have animals for sale. And yet, the size of their animals aren't going down; in fact they are getting bigger. Hmmm. And from your description of where the Dexter breed came from. The relationship between Kerry cattle and Dexters?? Geesh, You mean Dexters are really Kerrys who carried the chondro gene? and a whole breed of cattle came from them?? Really?? Of course, yes they didn't know about the gene, they couldn't have. But they described it, didn't they ... using words like short-legged, dish-shaped faces. Hmmm. LOL!! This is exactly what we have been saying for yrs. Thank you for agreeing. But I must admit I am a little confused since you have posted the exact opposite of this so many times before. You do work yourself into circles. Dexters started as primarily Kerry Cattle (and lots of other breeds too) and the shortest ones (regardless of the cause of their shortness) were identified as Dexters and founded the Dexter breed. Some were short due to lethal gene defects (chondro), some were likely short because of parasites and nutritional dwarfism, and some were short because they were healthy and naturally short with NO lethal genes. The healthy naturally short animals (like the ones that the Woodmagic herd selected) don't have larger hidden genetics and they can breed true. But the "Dexters" with the chondrodysplasia lethal gene, simply hid their taller Kerry genes with the defective ACAN gene but those taller genetics are still there.. 50% of the calves from the Chondro-dwarfs are those larger types because chondro's can't breed true. If ALL breeders had done as Beryl did with her Woodmagic herd, the Chondro gene would have been eliminated 50 years ago and we'd have nothing but true short dexters today... Instead, we have a mishmash of types.... Tall Kerry Types, Moderates, True Shorts, and Chondro-Dwarfs. Some of the Chondro Dwarfs are LARGER than some of the true shorts. Perhaps the ONLY cattle that should be allowed in shows should fit DonlinDexters' Size Comparison chart... I'll bet that Chondro Breeders would protest the loudest against it. Also, Perhaps NO AI bulls outside of these heights should be allowed Bulls Non-BD1: 40-44 inches (3 years) BD1 (chondro): 31-35 inches Cows Non-BD1: 38-42 inches BD1 (chondro): 29-33 inches |
|
|
|
Post by jamshundred on Dec 6, 2014 9:44:38 GMT
Dexter cattle were organized into and are a DWARF BREED. What an ignorant and unacceptable judge. When the dwarf genetics are removed. . . . so is the Dexter. Read the Cardiff report. The Woodmagic herd, having removed the chondro genetics, had evolved into an entirely different genetic base than Dexters. Read it. It is science.
Saltaire Platinum has FOUR recorded outcrossings in his 10 line pedigree. There is NO record of the breed that was used in the outcrossing in any of the four. We have a big percentage of missing information as to genetics in this bull. . . . . and NO idea of what recessives are lurking waiting to appear. It took TWENTY years for PHA to come to light. There may be roosters waiting to roost for polled breeders. As a matter of fact, with the vast number of recessive genetic issues in the beef breeds. . . that rooster may already be crowing but not heard just yet.
As an aside. The English realize there are problems worldwide with incorrect pedigrees and the DCS council has been discussing this issue. They are going to have to correct or resolve these errors. . . and that specifically includes Saltaire Platinum. Perhaps willingly or by legal requirement.
They had a massive outcrossing/appendix program in England. . ... so what if a polled showed up here or there? Eventually they approved the registration of these outcrossed polled animals as they were not adhering to the original guidelines for the breed anyway. However, Saltaire Platinum was sold to, and imported to America, a country which has NEVER permitted outcrossing, as being pure ( novel mutation , hahahahahaha) with the support of a couple opportunists and an American breeder who supported any kind of change in Dexters and is on record in writing as hating horns with a vengence, and with threat of lawsuit which struck fear in the lilly-livered hearts of leadership, he was admitted to the US herdbooks. The secret of his outcrossings were kept hidden and there was NO public discussion of this until I started asking questions after seeing a future ADCA President, ( Chris Ricard) publically scolded for inquiring as to Saltaire Platinum's purity which made me question the answer to him and the lack of any pertinent answer at the same time. It took an additional 10 years of constant ruthless personal attacks on me personally to finally get ADCA to acknowledge the truth of the information I uncovered quite easily. ADCA could have found the same information in 1994 and stopped this travesty had they not been bullied and threatened with lawsuit. Canada held out for a long time, but it almost cost them their association in financial costs. I have been told it cost Canada in excess of $100,00. So, don't brag on this mongrel mutt to me, he does not qualify to be registered in the US according to our rules of the time or those of today, and he is here because of fear and bullying.
The face of this breed and it's phenotype have been drastically changed by a bull with unknown genetics . Find me a Dexter owner of a heritage pedigreed dog who would ever permit this to take place in their dog breed and then tell me why it is permitted in our special and unique breed of heritage cattle.
Judy
|
|
|
|
Post by jamshundred on Dec 6, 2014 10:30:50 GMT
So, my question is how do you all think we should handle those 3 issues?
Kwin, first let me say to you that had there not been the fighting over this for the last 10 years. . . . . Dexter breeders would still be in the dark about the truth. I have been the fight and I am NOT giving it up. The good news is there is action being taken on both sides of the ocean to rectify the mis-information.
First:the associations must tell the breeders the truth, the ENTIRE truth, and nothing but the truth. Breeders are still confused and questioning. A major breeder of polled in the US called England for clarification and to find out if what is being said in America is "true". Shouldn't his own association have told him the truth? Saltaire Platinum is only in the UK registry because of error/ignorance/fraud. His grand-dam did NOT qualify at the time of her registration for the DCS herd book entry. She is there because she was registered as horned. Either science is in error on their polled philosophy, or Esmeralda was an outcross. She was polled and she was NOT a novel mutation. There is no scientific evidence for that. It is now said she was a scurred cow, and dehorned, but I want to see that from a knowledgable source, although it makes no difference as to her not being a pedigreed Dexter.
Second; The next step should come from England where the DCS should begin with Esmeralda and correct the pedigree, place her in the appendix registry, issue special exception for the registration of her son Migh Poldark, and his son Saltaire Platinum, neither of which qualiied for registration based on the outcrossing status of Esmeralda, remove their regular registration numbers for which they did not qualify and give them appendix entries. The pedigree on the dam side needs to be corrected in the same manner as there is a bull from the appendix cow Homer Rixy Piella which also did not qualify for registration based on the appendix registry rules. Once this is all cleaned up, breeders have the truth. That is all those of us who have fought this issue have asked for. . . . the truth. Until now that is.
Previouly all *I* ever asked be done in the US was for there to be two categories in the established registries. . . . one for the descendents of Saltaire Platinum whether polled or horned, and one for the horned cattle. I have changed my mind. I believe the lie should not be promoted in any fashion any longer. The descendents of Saltaire Platinum are a "new" breed. You cannot have the number of outcrossings in this bloodline without displacing Dexter genetics and it is obvious that is the case as it is apparent in the phenotype of his descendents. All descendents of Saltaire Platinum should be given a new breed identity and registry category. At least Mr. Gradwhol had the decency to rename his outcrosses. Call them NewDext or DexPoll or something innovative but STOP calling them Dexters. Dexters are a horned dwarf breed.
Kwin, with the numbers of traditional horned cattle dwindling due to ignorance and obfuscation of the outcrossing present in Saltaire Platinum, directly attributable to the actions of an inept leadership, some of whom were more focused on their own best interests instead of the interests of the Dexter breed and a portion of it's breeders , the horned Dexter in America stood on the brink of extinction, and only through the effort of Legacy and supporters who fought to preserve early genetics and get out the truth has there been even a slight chance of turning around the numbers. I believe the associations have to take a stand to reverse their mistakes. They have to tell the truth and they have to resolve the damage that has been done to both the breed and traditional breeders in some manner. No one is addressing the loss that has been experienced by traditional breeders as a direct result of a purposeful misrepresentation of a bull not qualified to be registered in the US based on his factual pedigree.
Judy
|
|
|
|
Post by lakeportfarms on Dec 6, 2014 12:14:11 GMT
Too bad I was asked to take the photo down of one of your cows, Kirk. I think it shows very well that your sizes are not what they claim to be, and you recently breed some VERY large cows. Of course I'm sure that is why I was asked to take it down. It is still on the website, if anybody would like to message me I'll be happy to provide the link. Hurry though, it probably won't last long there either! That is not the only one, I have several others, but one with a person standing next to it was the best example, because it gives perspective. It wasn't just the person either, there is a bucket that you can use to gauge the size as well. Individual photos without some known perspective can be difficult to evaluate.
Let me know in 40 years when you've gotten your own little "Woodmagic" herd down to an acceptable size. Of course by then I probably won't care, I'll have enjoyed my past 40 years of already small cattle, courtesy of the chondro gene. No problem at all for me, there are plenty of folks looking to purchase my "longleg" Dexters, and when I'm willing to share some of my shorties I'll have them beating a path to my door. After all, SP in your scan above even referred to him as "LONGLEG TYPE", in bold letters no less so I think both terms should stick from here on out at least in these public discussion boards!
I find it interesting that they advertise him as "his pedigree is accepted as accurate by the DCS". I guess that is true, but it doesn't tell the whole story does it? What the description did not say was that he was a novel mutation, or that he is out of "pure Dexter genetics". Well written for the sheeple or those who are not curious by nature. I guess they didn't count on Judy!...lol
Thanks for the information Gene, it helps a lot when somebody who has actual experience with one of the most used cows with Platinum can refute the absurd claims that it is the traditional lines that actual increased the size of the Dexters out of polled genetics. It's true that there are some large Dexters out of traditional lines out there, but why are so many breeders selecting them to breed with their polled bull??? Possibly one reason is because they need larger Dexters to handle higher birthweights?
Oh and Kirk, stop with the generalizations about the large spread of heights between the carriers and non-carriers. You know it's not in the least accurate. My 12 year old 39" bull is not the same as your 3 year old 44" bull. Keep one of your bulls for 12 years and let me know how large he gets, and while you're at it why don't you use the lower spread between the heights if you're going to differentiate between the two types.
|
|
|
|
Post by cascade on Dec 6, 2014 18:21:40 GMT
1. Before 2002, and before the SCIENCE of DNA testing, breeders were forced to label their chondro and non-chondro cattle as "long-legged type" vs "short-legged type" for lack of any better-educated labels. So of course, a 1990 listing of a Non-Chondro bull would be listed as "Long-legged type". But for the past 13 years, smart breeders know better than to use those outdated unreliable unscientific terms and instead, use terms consistent with DNA science... Normal (Non-Chondro) vs Chondro-Carriers 2. There is NO such thing as "100% PURE" dexter genetics since ALL dexters have non-dexters in their distant backgrounds. Instead, purebred registered Dexters are DEFINED as any dexters that the registry accepts as purebred at time of registration, based on the facts available at the time. 3. Saltaire Platinum was documented at 42", Wee Gaelic Ms. Fermoy was supposedly 41". Bulls are expected to be 2 inches taller than cows. That makes Saltaire Platinum 1 inch relatively SHORTER than Wee Gaelic Ms. Fermoy. Saltaire Platinum was also used on some excellent larger traditional horned girls in an attempt to bring down their size and make other improvements. Saltaire Platinum was a highly scored bull that throws good udders, good feet, and shorter legs. 4. If I go back a decade and look at the first calves born on our farm from our old original bull on traditional horned cows, the offspring were taller than our current herd is now. Our herd is dropping in size due to a LOT of hard work (and no chondro genes, and no outside shorter genetics since we are a closed herd). We were getting an occasional taller offspring years ago as many traditional breeders do (but NO calving problems). In fairly short order, we sold our original horned stock and sold our original polled bull and kept our shortest, best, polled replacements. Our current herd sire is the grandson of our original bull and I have another true-short (non-chondro) great-grandson that I may use next. There is no instant success with good breeding principles, just decades of hard work. 5. Dr. Cavanagh (who discovered the chondro-gene and studied dexters) says the AVERAGE dexter bull is dwarfed by 8 inches by the chondro-gene, so a 44 inch non-chondro bull is equivalent to a 36" chondrodysplastic bull www.dextercattle.org/adca/adca_article_chondrodysplasia.html |
|
|
|
Post by genebo on Dec 7, 2014 20:11:51 GMT
That is the stupidest math I've ever heard! If you EXPECT a calf to be taller than his dam, but he isn't as much taller as you expected, then he's actually SHORTER? I'd like to see your fourth grade report card. OR, I'd love to see what you'd do to a lie detector! Probably blow it up. No one has ever been forced to call their Dexters "long-legged type". Neither have they been forced to call their Dexters "short-legged type". As long as I've been interested in Dexters, I've never even heard those two terms. Come on: you made that up, didn't you? Especially the part about being FORCED to use those terms? Short legged, used as an adjective was used a lot and still is, even thought you try to brow-beat those who do to instead use one of your hate-mongering euphemisms. Disgusting! Wouldn't it be a lot better if you could actually produce any evidence that the cross-bred dexter type cattle were superior? Instead of focusing on writing all the awful tripe that you resort to? Here! Go learn a little bit about the sugject you are so intent upon eliminating: calfology.com/library/wiki/dwarfism-condrodysplasiaPay particular attention to the statement that, "a calf that inherits only one copy of the mutation may show a range of severity, and is actually the desired “miniature cattle” phenotype".Read the whole article, not just scan it to find a piece of a sentence that supports your twisted view. It's actually a very mild article, one that deals with the subject in an attempt to be factual. It is drawn from published reports of scientific research from noteworthy sources: Julie Cavanaugh's group in 2007 (she didn't discover it), Drs. Leipold, Hiranga and Dennis, 1993, and Gregory, 1956. A search for "chondrodysplasia in cattle" will get you a number of other professional reports. Ignore the postings of opinion by amateurs. |
|
