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Post by cascade on Dec 13, 2014 17:25:56 GMT
Our 6 year old chondro bull (36") with horns initially is intimidating to them, until I scratch him on the chin, or pat him on the back to show how docile he is. I CAN coax the visitors up to scratch him on the chin. Out come the cameras, and soon the visitors have taken dozens of photos of each other standing next to the bull or scratching him. I'm not here to get in a contest of who has the best cattle. Rather, I'm here to discuss science facts. The fact is that 36" dwarf bull may be amazing but he is a lethal gene hybrid, and as such, he can't breed true. Make certain you tell visitors that if you breed him on another cow that is similar to him they can expect 25% horrifically deformed dead bulldog-monster calves 25% calves that are MUCH MUCH taller than the parents 50% Calves carrying the lethal gene. Now if you have a true-short non-chondro traditional bull like this black horned 39" non-chondro bull in the AI catalog, you can tell visitors that he will breed true, with no deformed calves, no lethal genes and 100% of his calves can be short and healthy if you breed him on a similar cow  I'll bet that if you offered visitors (who love short cattle) these two options (true short vs lethal dwarf), side by side with FULL DISCLOSURE, they would pick true-breeding 39" tall bull without the lethal genes. |
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Post by lakeportfarms on Dec 14, 2014 11:50:50 GMT
Our 6 year old chondro bull (36") with horns initially is intimidating to them, until I scratch him on the chin, or pat him on the back to show how docile he is. I CAN coax the visitors up to scratch him on the chin. Out come the cameras, and soon the visitors have taken dozens of photos of each other standing next to the bull or scratching him. I'm not here to get in a contest of who has the best cattle. Rather, I'm here to discuss science facts. harp over and over on a subject thinking they're stupid, when in fact everybody fully understands it and the solution to avoiding bulldog calves is very simple. In fact I'm the one who doesn't get the advantages of having chondro carriers such as the ability to have a dam outproduce herself, the lower feed requirements, or have the ability to make good breeding selections because of a gene that I know will knock off several inches of height and "math is hard".The fact is that 36" dwarf bull may be amazing but he is a lethal gene hybrid, and as such, he can't breed true. Make certain you tell visitors that if you breed him on another cow that is similar to him they can expect they shouldn't breed to another like him.25% horrifically deformed dead bulldog-monster calves It doesn't happen because they have brains and follow advice and direction from a knowledgeable breeder.25% calves that are MUCH MUCH taller than the same size as the largest parent because my chondro carriers are among the smallest "true size" of any of our Dexters.50% Calves carrying the lethal gene just like him or a female version of him only smaller.Now if you have a true-short non-chondro traditional bull like this black horned 39" non-chondro bull in the AI catalog, you can tell visitors that he will breed true, with no deformed calves, no lethal genes and 100% of his calves can be short and healthy if you breed him on a similar cow. I'll bet that if you offered visitors (who love short cattle) these two options (true short vs lethal dwarf), side by side with FULL DISCLOSURE, they would pick true-breeding 39" tall bull without the lethal genes. No, because the 39" at 3 years is always taller by the time they get to 6, 9, or 12 years of age, whereas a chondro bull can be 36-41" at 9 years of age. If you have a good bull you don't eat him at 3 years of age. Fixed it for you Kirk. |
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Post by wvdexters on Dec 14, 2014 16:14:00 GMT
Excellent work!!!! Well done Hans
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Post by lakeportfarms on Dec 14, 2014 17:28:05 GMT
I'll bet that if you offered visitors (who love short cattle) these two options (true short vs lethal dwarf), side by side with FULL DISCLOSURE, they would pick true-breeding 39" tall bull without the lethal gene.
Actually they don't and I know so because with us because with 100 plus Dexters we have it all. When you have people visit interested in Dexters you tell them what they want. When we have visitors we give them options and THEY choose what they want.
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Post by legendrockranch on Dec 14, 2014 18:38:58 GMT
I Hope the below statement doesn’t come back to bite one of you in the behind.
If I were you I would be having any newbies you sell to sign your bill of sale stating that they fully understand the breeding principles of owning a Chondro or PHA carrier.
"Ethical and Legal Considerations
Serious ethical and legal problems are involved in selling
known carrier cattle or progeny of known carriers. A
seedstock producer in this position should be completely
honest with the buyer. It is doubtful that he should sell
possible carriers, under any circumstances, to a youngster
or to someone who is just getting started in business
and may not have the knowledge to understand the
consequences of using offspring from known carriers.
Selling carriers without informing the buyer will ultimately
reduce the confidence that buyers have in the
breeder and may eventually reflect negatively on the
entire breed"
www.iowabeefcenter.org/Beef%20Cattle%20Handbook/Congenital_Defects_Cattle.pdf
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Post by jamshundred on Dec 14, 2014 19:22:25 GMT
Honesty and ethics? I've been trying to get members of this breed to be honest for 10 years! I have not yet seen a single ramification for things I consider egregious.
I considered egregious that bulls were imported with upgraded genetics in a country where breeders were forced to compete with these animals on farms where they could not upgrade themselves.
I considered it egregious that breeders were lied to about the upgrading in the first two imported bulls. *I* was specifically lied to by leadership of the association and by one importer of the semen.
I considered it egregious that respected members of this breed were losing aborted calves similar to bulldog deaths on their farms and hid it from their fellow members.
I considered it egregious that members of leadership knew about aborted calves that were not born of chondro positive parents and would not alert the membership in 2002, when asked in 2004, and when asked in 2006.
I considered it egregious when a PHA calf was born on a farm and members of leadership, including the breeder of the PHA carrier sire did not tell tell the unsuspecting owner of the bull who bred it across her entire herd.
I considered it egregious when I purchased two young cows and discovered their pedigrees were "made up" and the registrar didn't even notice the bull had been dead for a while and the cow had never belonged to the breeder registering them.
I considered it egregious that ADCA mandated owners to test at a lab established in 2007/08, with no experience in cattle testing and then, by contract, gave up ownership rights of their members on those samples so that the owner of the lab and Texas-Agrilife could use those samples for ANY type of research they chose.
I considered it egregious that a DNA report on a cow I owned and never transfered to ADCA turned up on the private computer of a member of ADCA leadership and was commented on a public chat group by members of committee.
I considered it egregious that polled breeders who were members of ADCA and polled breeders who were members of leadership filed charges on me in ADCA in an attempt to intimiate me, damage my stellar reputation by act and innuendo, and silence me from telling the truth. A truth that is now acknowledged far and wide.
I consider it egregious that breeders of the descendents of Saltaire Platinum with 4 recorded outcrossings who IS NOT a purebred bull that do not fully inform their purchasers of this fact to be unethical.
DO NOT DARE INSINUATE TO ME IN ANY MANNER FOR FORM, a person who makes every necessary choice to insure that anyone who deals with me has experienced honesty and integrity, that either I, or fellow breeders who use dwarf cattle in their breeding programs are in any way unethical for preserving this breed in it's original organized conception and breed description.
Judy
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Post by legendrockranch on Dec 14, 2014 19:31:55 GMT
You need a valium Judy. I posted a statement and provided a link to the statement.
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Post by jamshundred on Dec 14, 2014 19:38:24 GMT
I do not take medication of any kind. It kills people!  You may have provided a link but you did so with insinuation. IMO Judy edited to add - - - - Dwarfism in the Dexter breed is different from that in other breeds, as in the "snorter" type in Herford cattle. With the exception of developing arthritis in the teen years for some animals of the "non-proportionate" dwarfism. . .Dexters live a happy, healthy, productive life passing the foundation genetics and characteristics to their offspring and hopefully descendents throughout the breed. Dwarfism in humans is a similar type of functional malady. Would you have ALL the little people culled Barb and Kirk? Do you think they have less right to live and produce than normal humans? Judy |
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Post by legendrockranch on Dec 14, 2014 19:49:44 GMT
I did not single out chondro, I also mentioned PHA. Don't you think it wise to do something like this? If you notice the link it shows MANY genetic defects. Having the seller request the buyer sign a bill of sale or contract for sale with the buyers understanding of breeding principles. This does nothing more than protect the seller. Especially if the animal is resold.
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Post by legendrockranch on Dec 14, 2014 20:15:51 GMT
edited to add - - - - Dwarfism in the Dexter breed is different from that in other breeds, as in the "snorter" type in Herford cattle. With the exception of developing arthritis in the teen years for some animals of the "non-proportionate" dwarfism. . .Dexters live a happy, healthy, productive life passing the foundation genetics and characteristics to their offspring and hopefully descendents throughout the breed. Dwarfism in humans is a similar type of functional malady. Would you have ALL the little people culled Barb and Kirk? Do you think they have less right to live and produce than normal humans? Judy
Judy, I AM NOT FOR CULLING or doing away with chondro. I keep saying this over and over, yet I keep being accused of it. I have proof of my statement going back over 10 years. What I am for if FULL testing and reporting of results be it PHA or Chondro. I also believe that some sellers do not give out all the information about chondro & PHA. So in those cases it hurts the breed if a problem arises. At least recently you came out and said that there are two phenotypes for chondro carrier Dexters. As for the "little people" first of all I don't think you can equate people & cattle. There are people in this world however that would abort a fetus for certain reasons.
So when it is not mentioned about the possible problems some carriers can have, I will come on and mention the possibilities.
Edited to ADD: here is a comment I made on this forum dated Dec 7, 2014 "For you information Kirk and I have our differences of opinions on chondro, and that's ok"
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Post by Donlin Stud on Dec 14, 2014 20:52:30 GMT
Legendrockranch, there will never be the acceptance of test results for PHA and Chondro to be a mandatory reporting requirement to an association who controls the registration hence dollars of a stud while there are people who continually "highlight" only the 'disadvantages' of a trait especially in light of the ban on registrations for chondro carriers in another country and the wanted sledge hammer approach of many re PHA.
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Post by Donlin Stud on Dec 14, 2014 20:54:54 GMT
I did not single out chondro, I also mentioned PHA. Don't you think it wise to do something like this? If you notice the link it shows MANY genetic defects. Having the seller request the buyer sign a bill of sale or contract for sale with the buyers understanding of breeding principles. This does nothing more than protect the seller. Especially if the animal is resold.
Hi I wouldnt mind seeing a bill of sale or contract for sale for livestock/DExters if you have one available? |
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Post by lakeportfarms on Dec 15, 2014 1:06:54 GMT
I Hope the below statement doesn’t come back to bite one of you in the behind.
If I were you I would be having any newbies you sell to sign your bill of sale stating that they fully understand the breeding principles of owning a Chondro or PHA carrier.
"Ethical and Legal Considerations
Serious ethical and legal problems are involved in selling
known carrier cattle or progeny of known carriers. A
seedstock producer in this position should be completely
honest with the buyer. It is doubtful that he should sell
possible carriers, under any circumstances, to a youngster
or to someone who is just getting started in business
and may not have the knowledge to understand the
consequences of using offspring from known carriers.
Selling carriers without informing the buyer will ultimately
reduce the confidence that buyers have in the
breeder and may eventually reflect negatively on the
entire breed"
www.iowabeefcenter.org/Beef%20Cattle%20Handbook/Congenital_Defects_Cattle.pdf
Hahahahaha Barb! Apparently you haven't been reading some of my posts on the subject. Most of the people at our farm choose the dwarf bull, and then a long leg heifer or cow or cows to go along with the bull, with the knowledge that they may produce dwarf heifers or bulls half of the time. In the case of a bull either short or long legged, it's not an issue, because they'll usually be steered. For the heifers, if it's a long leg they'll have the option of keeping her or selling her themselves, and if it's a short leg and their farm meets our requirements for being well maintained, without frequent (most of the time any) in/out of livestock, we'll exchange their tested chondro carrier heifer for a tested non-carrier heifer on our farm of their choosing, or we will trade a yearling or so age steer for the short leg heifer, which may get them to their goals of having beef in the freezer a little more quickly. This also allows us to build our short leg heifer/cow herd if we choose. If not, we can always find a purchaser very easily for the short leg heifer, which are hard to come by. Do you know what this does??? It encourages the testing for carrier/non-carrier status, and of course along with that they're usually genotyped and tested for other things like color through Legacy. I would think you would applaud that, if you are sincere in your statements about chondro. As for PHA, we have tested all of the bulls and cows to be PHA free, even if they are not descendants of Woodmagic Wheatear. Their calves are obligate non-carriers, and most all of our 100 plus Dexters are all genotyped and parent verified. Maybe on a upcoming day when we are snowed in I'll put a package of everything together and get it over to the ADCA, but I'm not worried about submitting it right now unless one is sold. Ethical enough for you? Since you sell polled cattle, it's reasonable to assume that your purchasers also desire polled cattle, do not want horns at all, and they have ethical objections to the de-horning of them. Do you tell them that there is a possibility with polled Dexters that, unlike a breed like Lowline Angus which they also may be considering, that the polled Dexters, or their progeny, may be able to at some time produce horns if bred to certain bulls, even if they are polled themselves? |
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Post by legendrockranch on Dec 15, 2014 1:37:48 GMT
Hans I do explain to new people about polled and what the opinions of others are. However you have to realize you can not compare the two. I've never heard of a calf dying because it was polled where with chondro or PHA there is that chance.
If you are testing all of your animals for chondro & Pha and reporting those results to the ADCA you are doing the ethical thing. You still might want to consider having newbies sign off on it, just for your own protection. Plus sooner or later parentage verifying as many as possible. I do applaud you, plus I really like you idea about trading out animals.
All the people I sell animals to get copies of their polled report and I do explain it to them. It also helps that the report itself has a explanation of result codes. In the case of a homozygous polled calf where testing is not needed due to obligate status, they get a copy of the sire and dams report plus as always a copy of parentage verification.
I am very demanding when I purchase an animal, it is no less than what they should expect from me. Fully tested, vaccinated & wormed, they can opp out on vaccinations but it will be stated as such on my contract. Health certificate for out of state sales, plus transfer fees all should be done by the seller. Extra testing might also be included plus sometimes Nasalgen for a younger animal. |
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Post by cascade on Dec 15, 2014 1:52:16 GMT
lakeportfarms said: "Most of the people at our farm choose the dwarf bull, and then a long leg heifer or cow or cows to go along with the bull, with the knowledge that they may produce dwarf heifers or bulls half of the time. In the case of a bull either short or long legged, it's not an issue, because they'll usually be steered. For the heifers, if it's a long leg they'll have the option of keeping her or selling her themselves, and if it's a short leg and their farm meets our requirements for being well maintained, without frequent (most of the time any) in/out of livestock, we'll exchange their tested chondro carrier heifer for a tested non-carrier heifer on our farm of their choosing, or we will trade a yearling or so age steer for the short leg heifer, which may get them to their goals of having beef in the freezer a little more quickly. This also allows us to build our short leg heifer/cow herd if we choose. If not, we can always find a purchaser very easily for the short leg heifer, which are hard to come by. Do you know what this does??? It encourages the testing for carrier/non-carrier status, and of course along with that they're usually genotyped and tested for other things like color through Legacy."
YIKES! That's a complicated hybrid mess... The SIMPLE option for folks who want shorter dexters is this: 1. Get some true-short dexters tested free of known lethal genes. 2. Put them in a pasture, take care of them, and watch your herd grow (keep your best, eat the rest). PS. Breeding related animals together simply doubles up on genes. If you start with good genes, then you'll be doubling up on good genes. Some of the very best livestock are the result of breeding related EXCELLENT animals together and doubling up on their EXCELLENCE. |
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Post by Donlin Stud on Dec 15, 2014 2:53:36 GMT
Your not being considerate of differences in management practices nor desired traits of a very versatile breed Cascade. If you would like support in your quest for "true-short" Dexters, you have to give a little and be supportive of those of us who wish to _continue_ breeding with the gene that made the Dexter, a Dexter in the first place. Fair is only fair ! |
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Post by cascade on Dec 15, 2014 4:39:07 GMT
Your not being considerate of differences in management practices nor desired traits of a very versatile breed Cascade. If you would like support in your quest for "true-short" Dexters, you have to give a little and be supportive of those of us who wish to _continue_ breeding with the gene that made the Dexter, a Dexter in the first place. Fair is only fair ! You have a good point, but it's still a complicated hybridization mess... I'd need to see a flowchart to figure it out. Lakeportfarms must be a lot smarter than me and a LOT smarter than typical newbies to dexters. It's also high risk for having dead bulldog calves. Keeping a carrier bull, risks having him accidentally breed his carrier daughters. If breeding accidents weren't a high likelihood, we wouldn't need parentage verification. I hope all newbies who want shorter dexters are being offered a well educated choice between the two options (Easy True-shorts vs. Complicated Chondro Dwarfs) PS. What made dexters a dexter in the first place, was simply being a short-in-stature Kerry-ish cow. Some had the dwarf gene AND some were true shorts. Most of the old timers didn't have a clue about how it worked. Today's true-short non-chondros are just as traditional as the chondros. |
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Post by lakeportfarms on Dec 15, 2014 11:26:45 GMT
How do you know that the majority of our non-chondro Dexters are not "true-short" already Kirk? It seems to me that if a Dexter owner is a fan of the shorties, that they are not going to be very tolerant of the Dexters that are too tall. In fact, I am probably even more conscious of it than the non chondro herds out there because I get a reminder of it every day I walk out into the two respective herds. I never "get used" to the taller heights of the non-chondro Dexters I own, do I? And if you can select for short non-chondros, you can also select for short chondro carriers. Your constant rhetoric about dwarfs producing too-tall Dexters is a false choice, as small dwarfs can produce small well within breed guidelines long legged bulls and cows. There comes a time when "short" or miniaturization goes too far though. I don't have visitors to our farm disappointed that our Dexters are not the size of Zebus without the chondro gene. People do want to milk, and people would like a little more beef in their freezer. And my small chondro cows can produce that steer that is larger than she herself is, all the while having the benefit of the shorter cow. I have a few pretty large full bodied Dexters, and I like them a lot because they have so many other good qualities to bring to my herd. One of them is 13 years old and she has probably one of, if not the nicest udder on our farm along with being very full bodied and an easy keeper. She reminds me a lot of the photos that Stephanie posted on the other site of Woodmagic Petrel. I would be crazy if I got rid of a cow that looks a lot like this: www.dextercattle.co.uk/news-events/news/index_83_4141533992.pdfAs far as our customers go. They LOVE the offer we make to them, and it certainly plays a role in them purchasing a Dexter from us over another breeder. When they are new to the breed, they are VERY happy and confident that if we are willing to do a trade like that, we are selling them Dexters that are capable of producing some very nice calves. It allows them to bring in some other desirable traits into their herd that they may be looking for, like color, A2 status, or they can put some beef in the freezer a little earlier than they otherwise would. If they don't want shorties, don't forget we make quite a few long leg bulls each year too. AND since I'm not using any of our long leg cows (or bulls with rare exception to breed our short girls) as replacements , they get to pick out the best of what we produce here. We get a lot of referrals. Sometimes they are related, but with a large herd and multiple bulls I also have completely unrelated pairs to sell. We have excellent fencing, and our Dexters (and Highlands) are very respectful of it, since they are contained by a single hot wire in their respective pastures during the summer with managed grazing. We usually keep a wide margin between our various herds with either another pasture between them our one of the fenced off lanes that we use for our tractor or driving out to another pasture (They serve as sacrifice areas in the spring). In unusual situations like last winter when the settled snow depth came to within a foot of the top of some of the fences, we moved them out of those areas so they couldn't reach another herd. |
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Post by Donlin Stud on Dec 15, 2014 20:50:59 GMT
Your not being considerate of differences in management practices nor desired traits of a very versatile breed Cascade. If you would like support in your quest for "true-short" Dexters, you have to give a little and be supportive of those of us who wish to _continue_ breeding with the gene that made the Dexter, a Dexter in the first place. Fair is only fair ! You have a good point, but it's still a complicated hybridization mess... I'd need to see a flowchart to figure it out. Lakeportfarms must be a lot smarter than me and a LOT smarter than typical newbies to dexters. It's also high risk for having dead bulldog calves. Keeping a carrier bull, risks having him accidentally breed his carrier daughters. If breeding accidents weren't a high likelihood, we wouldn't need parentage verification. I hope all newbies who want shorter dexters are being offered a well educated choice between the two options (Easy True-shorts vs. Complicated Chondro Dwarfs) PS. What made dexters a dexter in the first place, was simply being a short-in-stature Kerry-ish cow. Some had the dwarf gene AND some were true shorts. Most of the old timers didn't have a clue about how it worked. Today's true-short non-chondros are just as traditional as the chondros. We also offer the same choice and back up service as Lakeportfarms as the majority of our Dexters are adopted by those on small acres (5,10,15 sizing). It is not as complicated as it seems because it is normal management practice for those of us who breed with the dwarf gene and like Lakeportfarms, it provides us with the opportunity to bring back bloodlines and increase our dwarf numbers. Even with small acreage we inform and explain that as part of a good management strategy there needs to be the ability to separate, even if for a short time going further about heifers born should wait until they are at least 18mths before they are considered for joining to a bull - then its the spiel of moo reproduction ccycles and timing etc. Because it is quite a bit of information to absorb in one or two visits, we support our talk with an ad brochure and then with a 6 page booklet which is placed into binder-folder with medical history, printed photos, registration papers or a copy of, lick block requirements etc. We also deliver the moos so we see where they are going to be living and we stay in touch with our new Dexter-adopted owners even if it is with the odd email or such. Because we do spend alot of time with all our moos and we do offer a life-time return option, all the above comes easily for us as part of our stud's service delivery management. Im glad you mentioned that " What made dexters a dexter in the first place, was simply being a short-in-stature Kerry-ish cow. Some had the dwarf gene AND some were true shorts. Most of the old timers didn't have a clue about how it worked. " because this is what we have all been saying all along. And yes, " Today's true-short non-chondros are just as traditional as the chondros." So we as dedictated breeders should not be negative about either but respectful that both "true-shorts" and "Chondro-carriers" are, and should remain an integral part of what makes the Dexter, a Dexter Agree? |
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Post by jamshundred on Dec 15, 2014 21:20:49 GMT
There can be no doubt that the Dexter breed was founded on the dwarfism present in the foundation cattle. The early pictures and extant information are too strong circumstantially.
Were there short non dwarfs. Most likely. Were there taller non-dwarfs. Most likely.
What kept the breed traits and the unique phenotype was the breeding of the dwarf cattle with these non-dwarf cattle. I have not seen ( so far) a trend in the earliest animals that leads me to think there were probems with bulldog calves. I know even in the 60's in America, a breeder from New York sold a breeder out west some cattle and advised him to breed the shorter cattle with the taller to avoid any problems. Breeders knew this long before Mrs. Rutherford adopted the practice in her herd. The mistake Mrs. Rutherford made ( imo) was removing the dwarf genetics entirely. Those genetics carried the celebrated immune system, personality, forage conversion and other traits we admire.
Judy
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Post by legendrockranch on Dec 15, 2014 21:52:49 GMT
Those genetics carried the celebrated immune system, personality, forage conversion and other traits we admire. Well have to admit I have never heard about Dexters carriers having a "celebrated immune system"
Please back up you comments with scientific evidence, if you can not do that it's just some peoples opinion.
I think I'm going to start saying polled Dexters produce less greenhouse gas. 
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Post by genebo on Dec 16, 2014 1:58:38 GMT
Well, if it ain't your cattle doing it, it must be you.
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Post by legendrockranch on Dec 16, 2014 3:07:30 GMT
Sorry Genebo, The amount of methane from humans is negligible. Nice try though.
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