Controlling threads and posts

[Deleted]

 Let me start by saying that I mean no offense to anyone and am only trying to

HELP. My family has been through the POLITICS of small town living the last 5

years and have only survived by the GREAT GRACE of GOD ! Please we do not

need to do this to the GREAT DEXTER cattle that survive!

 I feel we need all members to be involved here and put all reasonable issues

to rest NOW.

 I understand that Judy set this forum up and I personally THANK her.

 My thoughts,

 1 , Set up some type of a overall review board.

     Even some of Kirks items need to be realized but not in the !!!! ( Sorry I should

not even be thinking these words)

 2 , Keep this Forum TOTALY for the future of Legacy Dexters only but involve all

comments and issues in a polite, respectful manner.

 THANK YOU for this consideration Dave.

  

[lakeportfarms]

Blessings, though it gets a bit frustrating at times, moderating the posts should be as limited as possible. I think Kirk (Cascade Meadow's Farm) has posted enough to show anybody who gets on here that he has an agenda and has little to no interest in what anybody else seems to think or like about Dexters unless it can be stuffed into his narrow definition and cherry picked numbers. It's a shame that he feels that in order to sell his Dexters he has to denigrate others, but in the scheme of things he's probably doing himself more harm than good. He has few choices to offer. Not that I'd travel to Oregon to purchase one of his Dexters anyway. Others like myself, have a Dexter for everybody, most of the time not enough of them.

Since it seems to be okay to post LINKS to various websites, but not grab them directly off of the pages and post them directly here, since I was asked to take down the direct photo, I'll include a website link to one of Cascade's (Kirk's) breedings, and again people can determine if this example of a Dexter that Cascade has bred is what they are looking for. It may be for some, more power to them.  Nothing goes away forever on the world wide web  Scroll down the page to the last photo at the bottom for the cow that Kirk bred.  Not so "true short" as he claims to breed is she?:

web.archive.org/web/20140517171609/http://legendrockranch.com/

Or you could have yourself some of these:

A three year old with a 24 lb heifer calf:



Dolly is a traditional lines, carries red, A2/A2 cow


A three year old bull out of Mike and Tia Faye:

Some of our shortie herd enjoying the remaining late summer grass

A beautiful cow, half sister to Mike



Walnut Lawn Shadwell, 6 years old, with his traditional lines herd.  The other day he was having a rest, and I went over and climbed on top of him and gave him a big hug.  He didn't budge a bit.


Here is a THREE year old bull, Sheril is 5'2" tall:




One of our customers with their two and a half year old bull: Notice how he's nowhere near looking her in the eye!


Folks, this photo below is a 4 year old REGISTERED LOWLINE ANGUS BULL. A 100% Homozygous polled breed (no chance EVER of getting horns), and 41" at the hip. Can you tell the difference between him and a polled Dexter bull that is a non-carrier (other than he's shorter than most all of them out there and a polled Dexter bull may actually produce horns???)  I didn't think so. If he wasn't a $4000 bull, a lot more people would be buying these. Thank goodness for those of us who continue to breed 100% horned and shortie Dexters; for the reputation of the Dexter being a short friendly breed of cattle rides on those very Dexters (Cascade Meadows Farm) Kirk would like to eliminate.



Here is a description of the Breed STANDARD for Lowlines.  Tell me how it doesn't differ from a polled Dexter that Kirk (Cascade) advocates?  People, we will lose our breed to the more well known Angus name and a VERY professionally run Lowline Angus Association if we throw away the unique characteristics of the Dexter in particular the horns and the chondrodysplasia gene, which is easily managed with a simple test.  I should add that PV is required to register Lowline and percentage Lowline animals, that is BOTH parents must be genotyped.  You can't slip a Dexter in there without somebody knowing it, but you certainly could slip a Lowline into the Dexter breed without somebody knowing about it, and VIOLA!  you have polled!

"Mature Lowline bulls will generally fall into a range of 40-48 inches measured at the shoulder and weigh from 900-1500 pounds. Mature cows should measure from 38-46 inches and weigh between 700-1100 pounds. Certain individuals will fall outside of these parameters. Judgment should be made on quality and confirmation rather than size.



The most discriminating feature of the head should be a well defined prominent poll. The eyes are large and prominent. Females should show no coarseness about the head, which should be angular, of moderate length with a broad forehead. Jaws should be clean and the throatlatch free of excessive skin. Ears should not droop, be of medium size and fully haired. Often the face of both sexes will have a slight dish.



The neck should be smooth, of moderate length and blend smoothly at the top of the shoulders. The dewlap should be of modest size with a full brisket in finished cattle. The mature bull should possess masculinity about head and neck without coarseness of shoulder.



The top line of a Lowline should be straight and long. The fore rib should be well sprung with fullness beneath the crops. There should be depth of both front and rear flank and the barrel should be deep and uniform from end to end. Width should be carried from front to rear and the loin should be long and deep with adequate length from the hooks to the pins. The rump should be well muscled in the lower round and stifle.



The Lowline should stand squarely on sound feet and legs of modest length. The rear leg should have a slight angle at the hock when viewed from the side. The feet should be relatively round, have an adequate depth of heel and uniform length of toes. Knees and hocks should be smooth and clean with feet pointing forward. Lowlines should have freedom of movement and length of stride.



Lowlines are predominantly black in color; however, a red gene (e) and a wild allele (E+) expressing red color have been identified in the breed. Red cattle are accepted for registration. White markings on the underline are not uncommon but should be restricted to the area behind the navel. A white scrotum on bulls is not desirable.


Bulls should show masculinity, libido and adequate scrotal development. The sheath should be trim and free from excess skin showing a retracted prepuce. Females should be feminine, showing longevity with a well-balanced level udder and small teat size. Both sexes should be docile and easy to handle.

[Deleted]

Thanks Lakeport it can get the best of a person at times. Guess the
main problem is a weak national Assoc. board.
Wish I had the room for more. The pictures of traditional and Legacy
Dexters are amazing and make me realize that in old days when they were
a house cow they would have contributed to a lot of survival for both
the cattle and family .

[legendrockranch]

Hans, take the link to website down now.  I have no dog in this fight unless you want to make it such.

Your archived my website it has since has been updated, NOT because of you using one of the animals as an example but because the two cows shown on it HAVE BEEN SOLD!!!

 

I have purposely stayed off of this forum. Do you want to bring me in?

[legendrockranch]

Dec 7, 2014 14:27:53 GMT legendrockranch said:

I have purposely stayed off of this forum. Do you want to bring me in?

Well it is high noon here in Texas and I see no response from Hans. Since its Sunday maybe he’s repenting his dirty deeds. While I was hoping Hans would have done the right thing, all things considered looks like it’s not going to happen.

So with out further ado here is a link to a current article that was published August 25, 2014

"Genetic and Pathoanatomical Features of the Bovine Prenatal Lethal
Chondrodysplasia"

omicsonline.org/open-access/genetic-and-pathoanatomical-features-of-the-bovine-prenatal-lethal-chondrodysplasia-2161-1041-3-132.pdf

Please note that they use the word “lethal”. This is not a word Dexter breeders have come up with. It is the correct terminology for the condition some Dexter have Chondrodysplasia, you will see the word lethal used in many scientific articles.  

Here is a comment I took off of a public forum made by Louise Gidney a Dexter owner and animal bone specialist archeologist.

This comment of hers and the reasons why should really hit home for you Hans

“I have come to the conclusion that I will never, ever, use a short-leg bull again, no matter how handsome or well bred”.

The good new is that it seems that cows were not “strikingly distinguishable”

 by Louisa Gidney » Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:24 am
Slightly off topic, but having made recent progress with analysing the skeletons of Dexter males I have come to the conclusion that I will never, ever, use a short-leg bull again, no matter how handsome or well bred.
The anomalies in the joint surfaces are far more pronounced in the short-leg males, and I have never encountered such high frequencies in archaeological cattle bones. Conversely, the bones of the short leg females are not strikingly distinguishable from small archaeological cow bones.
Google osteochondritis dissecans to get an idea of what I'm seeing on the joint surfaces. There's also a lot of incipient spavin among the 1-2 year olds, both short and non-short.
In another 10 years or so, I'm coming to terms with the fact that I will not be able to cope with my non-short cows, in terms of feed and water consumption and mucking out. I envisage a herd of short females with a non short bull in my declining years.
Zanfara Dexters
Tow Law
Co. Durham
Louisa Gidney

[wvdexters]

Lakeport, After reading what so many dexter breeders have been posting over the yrs on the different forums and facebook sites, I'm starting to see patterns. We have those breeders who fell in love with the traditional dexter breed. The body structure, the temperament, the horns; the classic animal that we see in the historical photos and thankfully still roaming the farms here and there in this country. There is a uniqueness about the traditional dexter that no other breed of cattle has. We recognize the beauty and purpose of these amazing little animals and treasure them as did the breeders who came before us. Our breed was rare, but we loved them.

Then there is another group of Dexter breeders; those that prefer a different animal altogether. They chose to breed a hornless animal that is a little larger and a little thicker. "Improving" our rare breed, through selective breeding and the use of out-crossed genetics (they prefer to call "up-graded"); they left behind the original and changed it into something completely new. This new animal, although a fine animal in its own right, bears little resemblance to the original other than in name. But it does have one advantage over the old, it more closely resembles the modern commercial breeds of cattle that are much loved by so many today. New breeders flocked to this "new type of dexter". They could have a hornless animal smaller in size than they were accustomed to and much easier to work with. Popularity grew, prices rose, and now our little rare breed of cattle isn't so rare anymore. The majority of the "new-type" breeders coming into our breed today never would have considered our rare heritage breed of horned, dwarf cattle. Having no appreciation for the Dexter's unique qualities, they would have simply moved on and chosen another for themselves as others had done in the past.

With so many drastic changes, we now essentially have 2 breeds and 2 distinct sets of breeders. Although so many of us are working hard to try to save the original while maintaining a good relationship throughout the ADCA, there are those who are working just as hard to decimate it. Destroying the traditional animals and the ADCA as well.

It is my personal opinion that this story if left unchanged will have a very sad ending for us all. The new modern will continue to evolve into the commercial breeds and lose its identity all together. Having left the old unique qualities behind, they have little to offer that can't be found easily in the low-lines and mini Herefords. The traditional lines will be forced to break away and perhaps start their own registry. Registered bloodlines will be lost as people tire of the unending battles.

[legendrockranch]

Dec 7, 2014 19:41:12 GMT wvdexters said:

With so many drastic changes, we now essentially have 2 breeds and 2 distinct sets of breeders. Although so many of us are working hard to try to save the original while maintaining a good relationship throughout the ADCA, there are those who are working just as hard to decimate it. Destroying the traditional animals and the ADCA as well.    

  

I'm glad these are your thoughts however I see it totally different and the majority of Dexter owners do as well. Legacy was as originally started as a project to protect what the powers that be thought a Dexter should be. Where did it go off track and become a genotype registry?  In essence you could already had a separate registry. 

[legendrockranch]

Let's not forget....besides my last comment. Every time I have posted on this forum was either to respond to someone elses comments about me or in the last situation someone using my pictures or website. 

[cascade]

ALL dexters descend from larger animals, mostly Irish Kerry cattle

Over the past 200 years, many Dexter breeders have simply tried to hide those large genetics by using a lethal defective dwarfing gene (Chondrodysplasia). Other breeders (like Woodmagic) were doing their best to breed for truly shorter dexters (without the Chondro gene but that was difficult without a genetic test). It wasn't until 2002 that the lethal dwarfing gene was discovered and fully understood and became testable.

www.dextercattle.org/adca/adca_article_chondrodysplasia.html

Using a chondro-gene on a too-tall animal does NOT correct the too-tall animal, it simply hides their truly tall genetics (but only 50% of the time) and passes them to the next generation. Any larger cows need to be bred by truly shorter bulls to correct their too-tall condition.
 
Many non-chondro breeders are working hard to bring down the TRUE genetic size of Dexters, without using the lethal Chondrodysplasia gene. But we still occasionally encounter animals that are too large.

When most of us start herds, we obtain calves as breeding stock and don't know how they will turn out.  As we watch them grow, we note their faults and correct them over time. If a cow turns out to have a weak udder, we breed her on a bull that carries good udders and we correct that fault. If a cow turns out to be too tall, we breed her on a shorter bull and correct that fault.  If a cow has too many faults, we eat her.

When we started our non-chondro herd on our farm from mostly traditional horned Dexters, our first calves were fairly inconsistent with a FEW turning out taller than we like, and many in the middle, and some surprisingly shorter and thicker (but non-chondro). We like them shorter and thicker and non-chondro (but not too short), so we have been keeping our shortest and thickest and best bulls for breeding and our herd has become much more consistent and we haven't had an exceptionally tall animal born on our farm in the past 5 years or so. We still have a lot of work to do, but I'm pat.

We're really proud of the progress we're making toward breeding for more consistent and truly compact (And FRIENDLY) dexters and any old photos any earlier too-tall animals only help to demonstrate the tremendous progress we are making.   I looked at a picture of some of our first calves from years ago and was shocked to see their longer legs compared the the truly shorter legs we are getting now. 

Folks have begged me to post more pics, and I hesitate to show pictures, because I'm not here to get in a contest of who has the best cattle, but rather, I'm just here to talk about the science of genetics and how we dexter breeders can breed for more truly compact animals. 

Here's one of our more recent bulls that we produced - He was about 43 inches at 3 years.  He's NON-Chondro, NON-PHA, Red, A2/A2, Homozygous Polled and VERY VERY friendly and trouble free.  He threw a great bunch of calves this last year.  Is he 100% perfect???  I hope not or I'd have have nothing to do for the rest of my life. 



Here he is with a person in the picture  (the bull is as friendly as a puppy).  This bull has non-chondro) sisters who are about 40" at 3 years.




Again, I'm not here to get in a cattle contest... Just here to discuss the science of genetics and to promote the idea of working on keeping our dexters friendly and truly compact and problem free.

PS. I do wish folks would label all pics as chondro vs. non-chondro when they are discussing sizes and measures.  The chondro defect interrupts normal bone growth so when you see a picture of a chondro-dwarf, you have to account the fact that you aren't seeing their true genetics.  They don't breed true.

[genebo]

The number 2 chondro basher has arrived in force, ready to take on anyone who would dare still be in love with the little Dexter cattle that our own ancestors chose.

It didn't take long for the lethal word to drop in her post. Here is an example of how the term is used when correctly applied to Dexter cattle. It is drawn from the very article that Ms. Netti posted here a few posts back.

On page 3, figure 2:

Prenatal Lethal Chondrodysplasia is the term applied to a bulldog calf.
Short-Legged Dexter (Viable Chondrodysplasia) is the term applied to our beloved shorties.
Long-Legged Dexter is the term applied to the non-carriers.

If you would kindly follow your own teachings, you will only use the term "lethal" when referring to bulldog calves. The proper phrase for our favorites, the shorties, is "Viable".

Since there are no living bulldog calves, and every one of ours is living, our Dexter cattle are to be referred to as Viable chondro carriers or non-carriers, as suits their genetics.

Also, please remember that as proud as you may be that your herd has no bulldog calves, please be advised that ours don't either.

Thank you.

[legendrockranch]

Sorry to spoil you day Genebo, you should realize that that I am only posting scientific articles that use the word. If you want to complain, take it up with the authors of the article or I should say articles.

I see you have come up with a new term for chondro carriers, "Viable chondro carriers" a better term is "Affected chondro carriers" 

[lakeportfarms]

No, I won't delete the link. I don't host the site, it's an archive of webpages, for public consumption, and it's available for anybody to find if they care to search a little bit. This was Kirk's breeding, and I used it as an example of what heavily polled genetics is producing far too often today and why some of us are pushing back against the constant attacks on our breeding choices. I'm not sure why you're embarrassed about it, after all it does say above that you occasionally make available "prized breeding stock" for sale. The more you fuss about it, the more people wonder why you're fussing so much? She may be a fine cow and perfect for somebody, but I prefer my cows a lot shorter than she is.

And I wasn't ignoring anybody, I was taking advantage of no snow, and reasonably warm weather today to look after some things on the farm today. We do have over 100 Dexters now after all, and they still need attention. I don't live on the internet. I have no reservations about posting the link, and if you want to respond with your articles and photographs like Kirk does (who basically starts the arguments to begin with) that's fine with me, you're free to do so.

I find it interesting...A quote from the link you posted:

"In another 10 years or so, I'm coming to terms with the fact that I will not be able to cope with my non-short cows, in terms of feed and water consumption and mucking out. I envisage a herd of short females with a non short bull in my declining years."

Here is a statement that basically supports the argument that those of us who breed short legged Dexters with Viable Chondrodysplasia have said for a long time. Their feed consumption is lower, and they maintain condition more easily than non carriers.

They also can live very long lives. If you look online you'll see many examples of older chondro positive cows that are still calving like clockwork every year. We have several of them, and they make up most of our older cows. I think I have many more older cows than either of chondro bashers that are here have, and in some cases by a considerable amount. However, keeping older animals is sometimes not in your best interest to do so. We do it because the the value of the pedigrees, and the rapidly diminishing lines. In a few cases, they are special in our hearts and are more than livestock. Look at Ms. Fermoy and the incredible efforts to preserve her genetics, for example. The same can't be said for pedigrees which are virtually indistinguishable from each other, which you are seeing more and more now. In this case, as Patti Adams has said, a lifespan of 12 or 13 years is generally where the issues with breeding, ability to keep proper condition, among other things crop up and you have a better odds to realize some salvage value of the cow or bull. And I agree with that, with a few notable exceptions such as what I've mentioned above.

If you think we're all just going to roll over and take the abuse by those of you who troll the pages here to jump in with your tiresome arguments and inflammatory rhetoric, it's not going to happen and some of us are going to push back. Get used to it, and how do you like it back at you?

[legendrockranch]

Maybe you should post what I also said, but no....let's leave that comment out.

"The good new is that it seems that cows were not “strikingly distinguishable”"

Isn't it interesting that I am getting blamed for a situation "YOU" started. Remember what goes around comes around.

[lakeportfarms]

I don't blame you (at least initially), I blame Kirk. Though it happened to be a cow you owned, it was a Cascade breeding, and only a few short years ago. He trolls, and he never misses an opportunity to jump in and start trashing what many of us breed for some very good reasons. And since he insists on posting over and over and over and over again the same tired rhetoric, it is now time to call him out, with photos and examples when possible just as he does, and others who support either explicitly or tacitly, his views. I say go away, leave it to those of us who actually breed and have experience with chondrodysplasia Viable Dexters to explain and educate our prospective buyers about the ins and outs of managing it, because we can do it a lot better than somebody who has never had one in their pasture and have no idea of the differences other than what they've read or heard. You all act like it's rocket science or something to breed chondrodysplasia carrier Dexters.

While he is "working on" bringing down his sizes, mine are already there, and I value the fact that my little cow can produce a larger steer than she is. This photo is of a 4 year old viable chondro carrier cow with her 2 year old long legged steer, weaned at 11 months, the steer was taller than she and likely nearly the same weight as she at weaning. She maintained her condition throughout on grass alone, and calved back at one year. This steer, on grass alone using managed grazing, had a hanging weight at 26 months of 460 lbs.



Sheril and I took over a dozen of our Dexters to a local fair in August, including our little 36" 6 year old bull Shadwell. People would come into the tent that we were in specifically looking for the little bull with the big horns that they had overheard others talking about.  Every day we had constant crowds looking at our cattle from 9 in the morning until 10 p.m.  We also had our 3 year old bull there, not even waist high on me. Both were in large part responsible for many sales (5 to be exact), in fact following the fair we sold every single one of our intact chondro carrier bulls paired with 1 to 4 non-carrier heifers each. These are people brand new to Dexters, in fact people brand new to cattle. Another breeder was there with their young (under age 2) non-carrier bulls. I can assure you that not one of these buyers wanted a long legged bull, compared side by side on the opposite side of the aisle. These buyers specifically chose the Dexter breed based on the chondro carrier bull alone, and would likely have not purchased Dexters otherwise.

[legendrockranch]

Just so you know I think what you did was despicable. All for what? to get back at someone that is a thorn in you side and than to drag me into the mixture...shameful.

For you information Kirk and I have our differences of opinions on chondro, and that's ok. I just purchased another bull from him who arrived last week, he is what "I"

want in a Dexter bull.  Not what you or anyone else thinks a Dexter should or should not be. 

edited to add:  Here's what it boils down to.  You used me for your own personal gain.

[cascade]

When displaying chondro-dwarf dexters at the fair, make certain you put up a poster with this official information on it so you appropriately educate fair-goers:

www.dextercattle.org/adca/adca_article_chondrodysplasia.html

And you should also have a true-short non-chondro dexter there as a comparison.

There is a terrific 39" true-short horned traditional non-chondro bull in the AI Catalog, and he breeds true and has no lethal genes.
Seems pretty ideal for folks who want short, black, horns, since ALL of his calves can look just like him.



I'm 100% in favor of people being able to choose chondo-dwarfs if they want them, but ONLY after they have first been completely educated about the lethal gene and also have seen other options including true-shorts WITHOUT chondro.

[genebo]

Dec 7, 2014 23:21:21 GMT legendrockranch said:

Sorry to spoil you day Genebo, you should realize that that I am only posting scientific articles that use the word. If you want to complain, take it up with the authors of the article or I should say articles.

I see you have come up with a new term for chondro carriers, "Viable chondro carriers" a better term is "Affected chondro carriers" 

Ms. Netti,

You posted the link to the article that contains the labels I read back to you, not me. I'm sure you posted the link because of it's lurid title, without bothering to read it.

The article you linked was about the chondrodysplasia condition as it applied to many breeds of cattle. Angus and Hereford were prominently featured. Dexters were given some attention. Much of the data within the article was old and outmoded. Much of it is now known to be false. I intended to show you exactly what you were citing as scientific evidence of your position. It wasn't, it isn't a reinforcement of your position.

This article, as are so many that are posted to belittle our little cattle, is actually positive in its application to the Dexters we love and enjoy. The one that Kirk recently posted in an effort to belittle our little shorties, referred to them as "actually the desired “miniature cattle” phenotype". He should have read that one before using it.

Practically all of the fear-mongering that is being done in the name of bulldog calves is outdated and in poor taste. Dating back to 2007, when the DNA test was widely in use, how many Dexter bulldog calves have you had?  How many have you personally seen? How many people do you personally know that have had a bulldog calf? The truth, please.

[legendrockranch]

Dec 8, 2014 2:27:34 GMT genebo said:

Dec 7, 2014 23:21:21 GMT legendrockranch said:

Sorry to spoil you day Genebo, you should realize that that I am only posting scientific articles that use the word. If you want to complain, take it up with the authors of the article or I should say articles.

I see you have come up with a new term for chondro carriers, "Viable chondro carriers" a better term is "Affected chondro carriers" 

The article you linked was about the chondrodysplasia condition as it applied to many breeds of cattle. Angus and Hereford were prominently featured. Dexters were given some attention. Much of the data within the article was old and outmoded. Much of it is now known to be false. I intended to show you exactly what you were citing as scientific evidence of your position. It wasn't, it isn't a reinforcement of your position.

Did you read the same article I posted?  Your comments "Angus and Hereford were prominently featured and Dexters were given some attention", HUH???  Maybe you should go back and count how many times the name Dexter was used compared to Angus and Hereford. 

Edited to add another link to the article:

omicsonline.org/open-access/genetic-and-pathoanatomical-features-of-the-bovine-prenatal-lethal-chondrodysplasia-2161-1041-3-132.pdf

[wvdexters]

Hans, What beautiful Dexters!!! They are gorgeous. Great photo of the "cow kiss". LOL! I learned a few years ago how they got the term "cow-lick" (little kid's hair that sticks up funny like in the front and can't be combed down). I was bending over in front of an old jersey we had giving her some feed and she nailed me. I had long hair at the time, and in one lick she had grass, grain bits, and slobber standing my hair straight up! After a good shower and shampoo it dawned on me. COW LICK

[lakeportfarms]

Thanks Karrie! They're looking a little messy now though. Every year we pick a new section of pasture that we would like to have them winter in and distribute the waste hay and manure over the soil in a fairly concentrated area. We've had pretty variable temperatures here for the past few weeks, from really cold to fairly mild, and a lot of precipitation so the soil hasn't dried out very well. I'm looking forward to the snow that sticks around a bit, so they clean up a bit!

That photo of the first cow with the calf, a non-carrier, has an absolutely beautiful udder on her. She had a shortie heifer calf out of Mike this past summer that is looking very pretty and we think we'll probably bring to the AGM next summer. We're looking forward to seeing many of you there!

[jamshundred]

When displaying chondro-dwarf dexters at the fair, make certain you put up a poster with this official information on it so you appropriately educate fair-goers:

Kirk,

Why would you ever suggest that a fellow owner post something for public consumption  that is blatently sensationalized and not representative of truth?  Have you been associating with folks who have no respect for truth or honesty? I realize it is difficult to avoid people who will do or so anything for gain but  I do hope if you are it isn't rubbing off Kirk.  One can not be honorable and support dishonor.  When truth is distorted or spun in any way . ..  . .. it is not truth. . . it is a lie.   A man of character and honor would never be party to such a thing.   

Judy

[wvdexters]

I can't wait! I am so excited to be able to go next summer. I look forward to meeting you and your family, and seeing your Dexters in person of course. We had initially planned to keep Kate's shorty calf and take him to the show; he is so beautiful. But when Macklynn was born our plans were changed. Our large animal Veterinarian fell in love with him and he's now up in Garrett County MD starting a brand new Dexter herd.

[genebo]

What a nice way to find Kate's shortie bull a new home. How can you beat being a bull and living wih a large animal vet?

Congratulations!

[Donlin Stud]

The posting of photos of traditional lined Dexters is so very helpful and important to those of us trying to achieve the same.

Please continue, and yes, I do screenshot and place into my Dexter Album so hope you don't mind The pics are such great reference material for us.

[cascade]

Dec 8, 2014 0:38:12 GMT lakeportfarms said:

 This photo is of a 4 year old viable chondro carrier cow with her 2 year old long legged steer, weaned at 11 months, the steer was taller than she and likely nearly the same weight as she at weaning. She maintained her condition throughout on grass alone, and calved back at one year. This steer, on grass alone using managed grazing, had a hanging weight at 26 months of 460 lbs.

This photo confirms that using the chondro-gene to correct for too-tall dexters, does NOT work.  The chondro gene simply hides those too-tall genetics and allows those too-tall genetics to be passed down through the generations without ever being corrected.

If you love short dexters, it must be disappointing to have a nice short (chondro) cow that throws giants half of the time. 

If you love short dexters, there are plenty of true-short dexters that have 100% short offspring (true-short offspring).

This photo also seems to confirm the fact that the chondro-gene dwarfs animals by 15%-20% or so.  I'd say that this cow would be at least 6 inches taller if she didn't have the lethal dwarfing gene messing with her normal bone growth.
 

 

[lakeportfarms]

It's not disappointing at all Kirk, in fact I was quite pleased that she produced such a nice large STEER. In case you didn't know, STEERS are males who have been rendered unable to breed. So the selection worked quite successfully here and he won't be reproducing his large genetics at all.  In fact, I think I'll pull out his rib-eye from the freezer for dinner tonight he looks so tasty.   Furthermore, I've heard it said that the genetics of the other half of the progeny can contribute to larger sizes from a self proclaimed expert here (that would be you), and it must be true of course since it's on the internet now, and the genetics that this steer have inherited have clearly come from the long-legged bull we bred her to that had many instances of Saltaire Platinum in his pedigree. In fact, almost every line. This is he:

dextercattle.org/pedigreedb/ponyweb.cgi?horse=023425&HorseName=jack&OwnerState=MI&Page=1&Sort=0

Now, we do have a fairly small dwarf polled A2/A2 intact bull out of Jack, Rebel Patriot, that was born from our VERY smallest dwarf cow. You can see him under the "progeny" section of the link to the bull above. Wren is extremely small, a nice cow but her tail set isn't the greatest (her calves have been much better), and according to the breeder (who has owned Dexters since the mid 70's, and several times been ADCA president) that was from Wren's dam, who was extremely small and also a dwarf out of traditional lines.  Based on what we see so far from him, he'll remain fairly small so his dam's side will have had her influence on his size.  I don't discount the possibility though that his father's genetics may spring up in his progeny, but we'll be breeding him to cows that have polled genetics in their pedigree and being non-carriers, they are larger and should be capable of handling a slightly larger calving weight than what they were having out of Mike.  We will likely sell all of the long legged heifers, especially if they are polled, and steer all of the bulls they produce unless we get another nice little red A2/A2 carrier to replace Patriot.

Jack was what we had at the time for a non-carrier bull. He was for our what ended up being our short term polled experiment that we didn't think worked very well (they ate too much and were too large compared to our other Dexters on our farm). Furthermore it was a mistake on our part because the calf was quite large when born too. He is since gone and on a farm where he is breeding a number of full size Angus cows, a much more appropriate place for him. So as you can see I've had experience with polled, horned, traditional, dwarf and long-legged (though all but a few of our long-legged could be considered the "true-short" that you like so much). We had about 10 polled Dexters for a couple of years, and over 100 Dexters now. Because we have multiple bulls and several different groups, we could make pretty good anecdotal observations about the behaviour of each of the groups that contained the various types. That's a pretty good sample size, and .provides quite an opportunity to have real hands on experiences between the various types, along with a number of different types of pedigrees.  Articles on the web are helpful sometimes, but they don't always give you the whole picture and frequently can also be biased toward the preference of the author, as Judy has noted.  

The best way for you to speak authoritatively on Dwarf Dexters would be to own several of them along with your long legged herd for a couple of years at least, and observe them yourself, rather than relying on what others have told you or what you've read on the internet.  All of our customers have both types, most often a carrier bull with non-carrier cows, because they have a small herd and they don't want to mess with A.I.  We lure them into a carrier bull, like a drug dealer starts off their customer, saying that after he's worked for you a year or two you put him in the freezer and get another one to breed your cow.  The problem is that after a few months, the bull has become their favorite Dexter!   So we go to "Plan B", where we will trade a nice long legged heifer, or even a yearling steer, for their dwarf heifer so they can continue to either expand their herd, or put some beef in the freezer.  We build our herd of dwarf heifers and cows, and they get to keep and enjoy their dwarf bull, and maybe even have some beef a bit earlier than they otherwise would be able to.

[lonecowhand]

Good plan ,Hans! I think your "trade back" scheme is an excellent tool for protecting those shorties,and disseminating them to folks (Me) that want the type, that others can emulate to avoid having good animals end up beef. I guess this plan requires two separate herds to work.