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Post by jamshundred on Dec 12, 2014 16:29:43 GMT
I have witnessed, for more than a decade. . . . . . members of this breed deny the truth of the polled outcrossing that brought us Saltaire Platinum, even after the very person responsible for this travesty has acknowledged the truth of two of the four crossings, no longer denies the first, and the fourth (Woodmagic) is on record and just came to light through research in the past year of old herd books.
Godstone Esmeralda was not a novel mutation. Science won't support that any longer in fact it never did. That is why no testing was ever done. If I had a novel mutation I would certainly prove it wouldn't you? We do not know the identity of the beef breed responsible. Just that there were beef cattle adjacent to the farm.
There are some in England who believe the actual outcrossing may have occured in one of her parents and she was second generation. At any rate. . . . I have not seen a person in England who repeats this fairy tale or even believes it. If one exists they are welcome to admit it.
The identity of the bull used in the upgrading in the line of Templeton Michaelmas Squeak is not recorded either. Some references say Jersey was in the cross. The cross is still recorded in the upgrade records.
The upgrade in the line of Woodmagic is the oldest and it looks like that might have been black welsh.
The upgrade with Homer Rixey Piella is also not recorded as to breed, the DCS record (verified by the original breeder, the owner who used her, and the the importer of semen) merely says outcrossed but I have been told the breeder said it was Angus.
Those are the facts. Those are the recorded facts , searchable and discoverable. . . . today. .. ..yesterday. .. . last year. . . .. and especially in 1994.
There is also rumor attached to Migh Poldark / Saltaire Platinum with insinuations of Murray Grey outcrossing. Of all the breeds in question, I would not find this hard to believe because of the very similar muscle structure and head of SP when compared to a photo of a Murray Grey bull. There are various records in the UK herd books at this time showing outcrossing in the herd with Murray Grey animals.
It is a simple matter for me to understand the casual attitude of the English to their outcrossed lines and the willingness to permit a fairy tail "novel mutation" stand long enough to bring polled into their registry. The upgrading/appendix registry in England was extensive from the 1940's until the turn of this century. No doubt there were many polled animals born of the beef outcrossings. They were just not registered. Why would they care to distinguish between horned or polled if the animals were outcrossed so there came a time when it was expedient to just register those polled outcrossing as well. However, exporting these genetics to other countries and having them accepted may have been another consideration and for sure. . . .getting a polled animal into the US herd book was a different situation. No outcrossing allowed and there is no more obvious trait to out an outcrossing then polled! Were there those skilled in obfuscation and deceit who knew a "novel mutation" even with astronomical odds to truth, would be the method to bring the aspirations of some to fruition?
In 1984, the year Godstone Esmeralda was born there were 45 bulls and 270 cows ,( roughly 10 per cent of the cows being graduates of the upgrade registries). registered in the DCS registry, and there were 67 cows entered into the appendix registry categories. That is an astounding percentage of upgrading.
In 1984 in the US. . . . . there were NO upgraded cows in the records.
Today, 20 years later, over 90 per cent of all animals being registered come from imported bulls off these upgraded registries and the percentage just from Saltaire Platinum alone is probably almost as high.
What do you suppose pure non-upgraded pedigrees in Dexters would be worth on the world market? I see the US still importing upgraded animals from England, but I do not see US breeders having a market for exporting animals around the world. Have any idea the market that was destroyed by ignorance, negligence and a lack of leadership in America? Significant! What we have now. . . . . shucks. . . . .everybody has. . . . . all over the world and in great percentages.
America has stubbornly and arrogantly turned it's Dexter breed into just another bunch of grade animals. Tragedy of immense proportion.
It is only in America the breeders still pretend their polled cattle are different from their counterparts in other countries by pretending they are raising novel mutated polled cattle.
You should be gathering and rescuing every single traditional and Legacy animal on this continent and preserving them. They are the only thing left in the Dexter breed world-wide that are unique.
Judy
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Post by cascade on Dec 12, 2014 17:00:45 GMT
All dexters have many non-dexters in their distant backgrounds.
ALL dexters have a few errors somewhere on their pedigrees (parentage verification is pretty new and is not 100% perfect)
All "pure legacy/traditional" dexters can genetically drift into much different looking and acting animals over the generations if you're not careful. This genetic drift happens even if you only breed legacy x legacy.
Pedigrees are very useful, but the ONLY thing that "preserves" the dexter breed is ongoing selection for Dexter traits, generation after generation:
Compact, Black, Dun, or Red (some white on some udders), FRIENDLY, Easy, Dual purpose, horns if you like them, polled if not
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Post by legendrockranch on Dec 12, 2014 17:18:38 GMT
Judy I could care less where the polled gene came from in Dexters, My point in all of this is NONE of our animals are pure. That is why I posted several times about polled genetics being around for hundreds of years and made statements like "what's lurking behind your animals". Not to mention what's behind ALL of the animals since they came to the US. Your are taking a small sample of animals and throwing them under the table, just like you did with some of the past AI bull that all of a sudden are now ok to use. For YEARS you had these bulls on you hit list of outcrossed animals, and now poof their ok to use. What about the hundreds of other Dexters you haven't gone chasing after? |
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Post by jamshundred on Dec 12, 2014 19:02:20 GMT
Kirk and Barb. You are singing off key. Your lyrics apply to all cattle. Every single cow. There was only one ancestor breed of all cattle. Eventually because of circumstance, location, environment, cattle began to change and evolve.
Many of the earliest cattle breeds are now extinct as newer versions with different traits, size, characteristics, became more popular.
Not only are Dexters a composite of all cattle that have gone before. . . so are every breed. And then. . . . .. .
And then there came a time when men began to gather cattle with similar traits and appearance they admired into groups and give them names. In the 1800's they went a step further, and they gathered these similar groups of cattle into what they called breeds, and they began to manage the breeding of these breeds by recording breedings of cattle whom they gave identities with ear marks and names, and these were entered into what they called a herd book and pedigrees began to be established.
It was the responsibility of every breeder to maintain the integrity of these breeds. It is customary for men to grow tired of the norm and seek to improve it, and such is the case with the cattle they raised and they began to breed animals from these established breeds together and make new breeds. To these new breeds with different color and characteristics they gave a new NAME. When the Lincoln red cattle were crossed with the Sussex dun cattle, the new breed, red poll cattle survived while the two parent breeds became extinct.
The polled Dexters in America have been bred for 20 years from one grade bull with an admixture of a number of breeds flowing through his blood. Over these two decades of line breeding from this one ancestor these traits have been set. A new breed has been developed. They are NOT Dexters. Their breeders pretend they are Dexters because they not only do not have the decency to stop the pretense and destruction of the Dexter breed, they also fear this new breed can not stand on it's own merit. They are likely correct. The Dexter breed survived because it was a unique dwarf breed of cattle with a unique phenotype and unique breed characteristics valued by it's small holders as the breed fit their purpose well.
This new breed of minaturized cattle ( although some of them are NOT small so this breed ( like all others does not breed true either), likely will NOT survive. Those of us still breeding traditional Dexter cattle prey it does not take down the parent breed when it goes.
Why do I think this fad will die? The cattle are not Dexters by any definition. They are miniaturized beef cattle primarily at a time in history when cattle producers ( commercial interests) are flocking to maintream breeds to reap the financial boom taking place. Polled Dexters IF they are small which Kirk claims his to be are not going to be sought by the commercial interests and breeders who will lose 30 40 cents a pound easily in the traditional market and if suckered in to begin with are going to dump these animals like hot potatoes as the market is not going to sustain the recent fad prices either. In fact, yet again, the leaders of this breed have not led and the trend to breed red which is always the result when two reds are bred together lacks foresight. Red cattle are not where the money is. Black cattle bring the premium price. As this new breed of smaller red polled cattle moves forward they are inviting the inevitable disaster of a market place reveling in polled beef cattle of larger size bringing record prices. Where is the buyer going to go?
Breeders/small holders who want what the Dexter brochure describes, whose characteristics are based on dwarf genetics. ... will have to locate and purchase traditional Dexters to get it. When they purchase the imposters. . . . they will be dis-satisfied because they cannot mirror the brochure and once the current pyramid fad prices collapse ( already happening) the new breed is done.
Yep. The only chance you have for now is to continue to pretend to be Dexters. Hey I just thought of a great name for your new breed.
Catchy and different but as descriptive as one could ever imagine.
Edited to remove previous entry said purposely to annoy. With some thought, perhaps it wouldn't be so objectionable to discussing calling polled cattle in the US, each one required to have Saltaire Platinum in the pedigree by a different breed name. It is not be argumentative to say they do not fit the breed description of Dexter cattle as they were described and organized into a breed.
Maybe a spin on old SP himself. Saltese cattle. Platiners. Saltex. Exters.
Judy
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Post by legendrockranch on Dec 12, 2014 19:33:10 GMT
Judy I see you keep saying that Dexters are a "dwarf breed" this is not the first time or the first place. So what does that make the Dexter non carriers?
As for all of the other nonsense you posted time will tell. I've been breeding polled red for many years and I can personally tell you it is NOT slowing down. I chose what I chose to breed for my own reasons, not what others thought I should breed.
If horned black dwarf Dexters were in demand, maybe you would would be off of your soapbox. I doubt it though.
Well it seems I am unable to put Judys comment in the quote box it should have said "dwarf breed"
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Post by legendrockranch on Dec 12, 2014 19:41:50 GMT
I have also seen you post that Dun Dexters came from a cross also.
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Post by jamshundred on Dec 12, 2014 23:03:29 GMT
Barb
You err. I have never stated dun cattle are outcrossed though I may have commented that there was strong sentiment in England to that belief. I actually traced the dun to Grinstead and there are those in England who believe based on Grinstead records where red poll was one of the breeds kept by Lady Loder that the dun genetics may have originated off the Sussex dun. It is a plausible theory. Since there were no dun cattle registered in England until the 70's there are no records from Grinstead back that could give definitive answers but based on the names of various cows I have always leaned toward believing the dun may have come very early in the Grinstead herd and was considered red for registration purposes or it actually was in the earlier lines other than Grinstead as well. I always wonder about Banwell Sandy and a few other color-ish sounding names. Currently no way to tell but someone doing beaucoup hours of research down lines of dun may trace it to a cow registered as red way back when. Let me add also that after all theses years *i* was the first person to state and then make the case there was no brown cow carrying dun in the original US imports several years after I traced every single descendent to prove there was no dun in the US prior to the 1950's imports which included Grinstead. After that a couple popped up and then it was a fad flood for a while after Woodmagic dun cows arrived in Canada.
How did I prove that research accurate? I found a photo of a black Belle of Hempstead. I may muse at time over observations I have made but I never make declarations unless I am confident I can back up the assertions with sufficient evidence along with observation to make a valid case. All researchers (cops for instance )muse about possibilities taken from clues and data before uncovering solid evidence.
Why is it so hard for those of you in the "get Judy" gang of mean girls to understand I was lied to, suspected it, set out to find out why then uncovered tons of information from many knowledgeable sources and fought for what I believed in because what I saw happening I felt was wrong. (Politics). Or that I am passionate about this little breed of cattle, crushed by the loss of the traditional bloodlines both emotionally but also because I believe these are genetics that would sustain man should any of the dire predictions ( including The Bible and solar flares) change the cushy way of living most of us have enjoyed during our lifetimes. It might not be in the shorter time I have left but the earth grumbles way too much for complacency if one just looks at the extreme forces of nature in place in the recent decade or considers enemies of our country who could cross a porous border a ignite a dirty bomb that could be more devastating then nature.
I have done nothing to hurt you or others personally but have not been treated in kind. My love of the breed and my respect for the breeders and constant quest to think of ways to make it easier for them (direct testing being the most recent) since I do not think they are either respected or valued brings even more stalking and nasty personal comments from those I have never harmed and would help if needed. Nothing I have done has been for gain and there has been none. . I donate my time and resources to this breed and it's caretakers. At times I am snarky because I cannot abide those who lie or knowingly parse the truth and it gets old having that same gang trolling me always making it appear I have some self serving agenda or make sly innuendo in attempts to discredit me. My agenda is to save this breed in its original state. If I cannot do that and it is lost entirely or replaced with frauds it is gone forever and I have failed and I cannot bear that thought and I will not give up!
this is a long post I am in one of those moods! One of the trolls just could not stand I suggested to someone that dwarf cattle are wonderful little creatures and yet again felt the need to warn someone about me !
Judy
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Post by legendrockranch on Dec 12, 2014 23:30:19 GMT
Judy, please don't forgot my prior post and question.
Judy I see you keep saying that Dexters are a "dwarf breed" this is not the first time or the first place. So what does that make the Dexter non carriers?
As far as the rest of your post, I guess it comes down to your explanation of "hurt". I posted earlier "For YEARS you had these bulls on you hit list of outcrossed animals, and now poof their ok to use". Did you hurt the possible sales of semen of these bulls? Did you hurt the known offspring and their owners by making dubious comments? This is just a small sampling of the hurt you have caused some breeders. Yet no matter what you continue to pounce and you wonder why there are those that will have nothing to do with you? Really? Heck just go back and reread the threads that you have posted on this subject alone. Are you still wondering?
Added: hurting others for your agenda is something that should never be done. There are other ways to get points across.
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Post by cascade on Dec 13, 2014 1:58:58 GMT
The identity of the bull used in the upgrading in the line of Templeton Michaelmas Squeak is not recorded either. The cross is still recorded in the upgrade records. The upgrade in the line of Woodmagic is the oldest and it looks like that might have been black welsh. The upgrade with Homer Rixey Piella is also not recorded as to breed, the DCS record (verified by the original breeder, the owner who used her, and the the importer of semen) merely says outcrossed Those are the facts. Those are the recorded facts , searchable and discoverable. . . . today. .. ..yesterday. .. . last year. . . .. and especially in 1994.Judy So it turns out that the MYTH that Saltaire Platinum has Angus or Beef cattle somewhere in his 6 generation pedigree is just hearsay and myth. The records show no such thing. In fact, the upgrades recorded in his distant past may have used an unregistered Dexter or possibly a Kerry. The record doesn't say. The fact that Saltaire Platinum has rather short legs and was 42" tall at 3 years of age, tells me that his 5 or 6 generation pedigree has a good chance of being fairly correct. But there are no 5 or 6 generation pedigrees anywhere in Dexterdom that are completely parentage verified yet, so they all have a good chance of having some errors in the past. PS. It's still NOT a 100% PROVEN fact that the polled gene in dexters was not a fresh mutation... Not that it matters. There are plenty of polled Dexters available to be brought into America via other legal and ethical routes. The polled gene has saved countless calves from the torture of de-horning. |
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Post by jamshundred on Dec 13, 2014 4:03:48 GMT
Well, that is a simple answer. . . it makes them Dexter non-dwarf progeny of Dexter dwarf cattle. Dexter were established as a dwarf breed. Do your own research and prove me wrong. All the early Irish herd books can be found for free, or can be purchased on Abe books. For a little over a thousand dollars you can buy the first 24 herdbooks from England and start there. Once the animals were gathered into the original herd books. . . ( you will note in your research that often the larger breeders were found in both the Kerry section and the Dexter section and since I have not been able to find any evidence of tall non-dwarves in the early years of the Dexter breed I suspect they were sold as Kerry or culled. A proportionate dwarf is often very difficult to identify as a dwarf so I will guess that the shorter non-carriers and proportionate carriers were all inter mixed and bred without the mounting problems that began sometime mid century. ( There is a story there, but that is another long research project to find the answers.)
That's a crock. There wasn't enough semen in this country from that bull to populate a ghost town in Kansas. When the preservation effort began, just as today. . . .the access to herd books to trace pedigrees from England was non-existant. The earliest that were available on the website only went back to around mid forties at the time, maybe even only to the 50's. I can't recall because they continue to add over time. Resources in England said there was controversy in that country about this bull, because of color tests and the dark face, and I think perhaps size? Cannot remember on that. This bull was in NO pedigree of any animal available for the preservation effort. It is better to always plan for the worst and pray for the best. English research still says this bull is outcrossed and I believe there is now some science from the US that is in agreement. More on that another day.
So. .. the bull was added to the list of bulls not permitted for Legacy. I have not removed him myself from any list, so you err again. However the rule is. . . . the pedigree rules. .. not rumor, and since the work I have since done on the pedigree shows no recorded upgrading I have said in public that if he were used for a Legacy breeding it would be permitted. That might change yet again here in the near future. We will see. My personal opinion - - I think there is a problem in that bloodline. It is said that a well respected breeder whose word was known to be trustworthy specified a particular ancestor in that line with the information of outcrossing. I am suspicious of the coloring as well. That's an opinion. If this is the best you have to make up a non-issue Barb for the hit squad. . .maybe you should hire a consultant. ( ME). I can give you better material than that! LOL. Making a cautious choice/decison in the face of conflicting information without available records is the RIGHT choice. Besides. . . I think there is another determination that keeps him from being Legacy qualfied so breeders in the preservation effort should probably continue to avoid that semen if any is available to begin with.
Judy
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Post by jamshundred on Dec 13, 2014 4:32:13 GMT
Kirk, have you got eyes? Do you know anything about cattle breeds? If so, there is little doubt there is angus in those polled lines by the faces on some of them. They look more like Angus than some of the Angus people are raising today. Give me a break. I suppose all those outcrossings could be Jersey or Brown Swiss, or Holstein or Frisien . . . . but do YOU really think so or do you think the RECORDED notations of outcrossed animals are beef animals? Pick your poison. He is still a grade animal. I have always wondered about his name though. What appearance to you suppose the coat of a whitish or grey bull animal crossed with a black one would lend to a calf?
Cross a black cat with a white one and you can get gray ( platinum). Cross a white silkie chick with a black silkie chick and you get (gray/platinu). He really is very similar in appearance to the Murray Grey bull. You are right to concern yourself with trying to determine what his outcrossings might be. . .. .. .because there is NO clue as to what genetic recessives ( even lethals alas!) might be piggybacking into the breed. How many lethals in Angus now? Shorthorns?
In 1984 the year Esmeralda was born - the upgrade registry shows; Murray Grey, Friesian, Angus, Gurensey, Jersey cattle used in the upgrading.
In 1990 the year Saltaire Platinum was born there are no A category entries in the herd book I can find, nor 1991 and the 1992 herd book is not here at the moment. There were entries for the experiemental upgrade registry.
In 1993 three years Platinum was calved the upgrade registry showed all the above . . . AND. . . .Limousin,shorthorn, hereford cross,
In 1994 fourt the year after Platinum was calved the upgrade registry recorded these other than Dexter parents; Jersey, Guernsey x jersey, red poll, hereford x saler,
Are you yet beginning to see that the upgrading program in England was extensive? And you still want to assign a novel mutation, a 1 in hundreds of thousands chance to a bull that has descendents that look both Angus and Jersey at times. ( Angus faces, jersey mealy mouth, and dark faces seen on Jersey) And Kirk. . . . science does NOT support the novel mutation theory. That is why you are not hearing it anymore. The record of calving of Esmeralda and horn status of calves is a contributing factor to the science. I don't even think you believe it . . .. .it is just the only thing you have left to hang on to.
Judy
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Post by jamshundred on Dec 13, 2014 5:11:37 GMT
Kirk,
Let's talk about a couple other issues with Platinum. You commented on his size and his measurement at age 3. 42" at age three means he probably would have matured and died at least 47 inches. That really is not a small bull at the measured age. And. . who measured him. Is there documentation? I'd like to see official paperwork. I do NOT see the same small bull in that photo that YOU see.
Finally. . . . . I have a friend in England who raises Dexter cattle. No bull is collected for AI breeding until a bull has proven himself as worthy in a significant number of breedings. ( Progeny testing).
Saltaire Platinum was born on Sept 29, 1990. He has no calves recorded in the herd book until 4 calves in 1992. His first calf born in America was April 1994 which means semen from this bull had been collected and passed through all phases of what I am told is a nightmare in red tape to import semen, crossed the ocean, semen sold, distributed, and used in breeding by . . . . sometime around July 1993. At this time Saltaire Platinum had not reached his third birthday.
You claim this was a "proven" bull. By whose standards?
Judy
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Post by cascade on Dec 13, 2014 5:21:17 GMT
Saltaire Platintum 42" at 3 years, looks VERY pure Dexter, Woodmagic lines Woodmagic Hedgehog III (non-chondro, true-short)  Saltaire Platinum (non-chondro, true short) at 42", He's got a lot of Woodmagic in him.  Polled cattle can tend to share certain looks in forehead and face. Horns do change the scull/face of cattle. Here's a true-short non-chondro small horned dexter with Platinum on the pedigree 17 times I don't see any angus in her.  Science does support a fresh polled mutation for Godstone Esmeralda Stay tuned for a new thread titled "Fresh Polled Mutation possible in Godstone Esmeralda" |
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Post by legendrockranch on Dec 13, 2014 16:08:48 GMT
Well, that is a simple answer. . . it makes them Dexter non-dwarf progeny of Dexter dwarf cattle. Dexter were established as a dwarf breed. Do your own research and prove me wrong. All the early Irish herd books can be found for free, or can be purchased on Abe books. For a little over a thousand dollars you can buy the first 24 herdbooks from England and start there. Once the animals were gathered into the original herd books. . . ( you will note in your research that often the larger breeders were found in both the Kerry section and the Dexter section and since I have not been able to find any evidence of tall non-dwarves in the early years of the Dexter breed I suspect they were sold as Kerry or culled. A proportionate dwarf is often very difficult to identify as a dwarf so I will guess that the shorter non-carriers and proportionate carriers were all inter mixed and bred without the mounting problems that began sometime mid century. ( There is a story there, but that is another long research project to find the answers.) Judy more than likely it was the other way around the dwarf was mutation from a non-carrier Dexter.
Once again "your personal opinion" has been the thorn in many a Dexter animal and there owners. Who was the one that kept commenting on Lucifer’s temperament? Judy.
Who made you the spokesman? I'm sure you thought nothing of a well respected breeder who had his arms around a Lucifer son. Why do you feel he had the need to do that?
I'll tell you why, it was because of you and your constant damming remarks of Lucifer’s temperament. As I said earlier this is just a small sampling of the damage you have done to the breed and the association.
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Post by Donlin Stud on Dec 16, 2014 21:10:13 GMT
All dexters have many non-dexters in their distant backgrounds. ALL dexters have a few errors somewhere on their pedigrees (parentage verification is pretty new and is not 100% perfect) All "pure legacy/traditional" dexters can genetically drift into much different looking and acting animals over the generations if you're not careful. This genetic drift happens even if you only breed legacy x legacy. Pedigrees are very useful, but the ONLY thing that "preserves" the dexter breed is ongoing selection for Dexter traits, generation after generation: Compact, Black, Dun, or Red (some white on some udders), FRIENDLY, Easy, Dual purpose, horns if you like them, polled if not Cascade what you say above has to have some truth within. It cant be completely discounted – we humans are mess-makers. But, and I do have a but……. Sitting outside of America, even I am appalled that a country which has never allowed an upgrading program for their Dexter breed, never had a need to introduce such a scheme, allowed an imported bull from a country with an active upgrading program who also had a trait not known to the Dexter breed (Polled) into their herdbook…………..and then cultivated lies and cover stories about its parentage/bloodlines. IMO I assume if the same said bull was imported from a country with an active up grading program and its parentage was fully disclosed but had a marketing spiel of ‘Hey we have Polled’ – then this ongoing argument would be null and void. Why? Because Dexter breeders would have been making an informed decision when introducing this bull into their herds. I know if our stud had extensively used an animal only to find out years down the track that we had been lied to and/or misled – then, most likely all hell would break loose. And bloodlines do help in providing the ability to select for Dexter traits more quickly. The more I look at the photos of traditional bloodlined Dexters on this forum and the internet, the longer the road appears for our stud. But we wont be giving up. America is in an enviable position where there still exists Dexters who are as pure to their breed as records provide……………and they should be preserved. Those who want to discredit and alienate from this fact need to remove their heads from the sand - before its too late. |
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Post by Donlin Stud on Dec 16, 2014 21:36:32 GMT
Judy more than likely it was the other way around the dwarf was mutation from a non-carrier Dexter.
Once again "your personal opinion" has been the thorn in many a Dexter animal and there owners. Who was the one that kept commenting on Lucifer’s temperament? Judy.
Who made you the spokesman? I'm sure you thought nothing of a well respected breeder who had his arms around a Lucifer son. Why do you feel he had the need to do that?
I'll tell you why, it was because of you and your constant damming remarks of Lucifer’s temperament. As I said earlier this is just a small sampling of the damage you have done to the breed and the association. Judy has not been the only one to comment on Lucifer's temperament and she is not the owner of many lucifer descendants whose temperament had them see the inside of an abbatoir either. And I have never read Judy stating that _all_ Lucifer descendants have temperament issues. A statement such as this would be careless considering the dam also has a say in the temperament of her calves. And as for Judy being responsible for damage to the breed and the association - well that is soley in your opinion and you should state that. Because there are many who find the openly sharing of information and constant assistance very welcoming. You have gone far and beyond just commenting on a link to your website information. I think you and some others become bored unless you are personally attacking others and that is why you continue to be a participant in this forum. |
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Post by cascade on Dec 16, 2014 22:16:06 GMT
All dexters have many non-dexters in their distant backgrounds. ALL dexters have a few errors somewhere on their pedigrees (parentage verification is pretty new and is not 100% perfect) All "pure legacy/traditional" dexters can genetically drift into much different looking and acting animals over the generations if you're not careful. This genetic drift happens even if you only breed legacy x legacy. Pedigrees are very useful, but the ONLY thing that "preserves" the dexter breed is ongoing selection for Dexter traits, generation after generation: Compact, Black, Dun, or Red (some white on some udders), FRIENDLY, Easy, Dual purpose, horns if you like them, polled if not Cascade what you say above has to have some truth within. It cant be completely discounted – we humans are mess-makers. But, and I do have a but……. Sitting outside of America, even I am appalled that a country which has never allowed an upgrading program for their Dexter breed, never had a need to introduce such a scheme, allowed an imported bull from a country with an active upgrading program who also had a trait not known to the Dexter breed (Polled) into their herdbook…………..and then cultivated lies and cover stories about its parentage/bloodlines. IMO I assume if the same said bull was imported from a country with an active up grading program and its parentage was fully disclosed but had a marketing spiel of ‘Hey we have Polled’ – then this ongoing argument would be null and void. Why? Because Dexter breeders would have been making an informed decision when introducing this bull into their herds. I know if our stud had extensively used an animal only to find out years down the track that we had been lied to and/or misled – then, most likely all hell would break loose. And bloodlines do help in providing the ability to select for Dexter traits more quickly. The more I look at the photos of traditional bloodlined Dexters on this forum and the internet, the longer the road appears for our stud. But we wont be giving up. America is in an enviable position where there still exists Dexters who are as pure to their breed as records provide……………and they should be preserved. Those who want to discredit and alienate from this fact need to remove their heads from the sand - before its too late. 1. Years ago, we wanted cattle on our farm... we looked at many small heritage breeds and decided that horns weren't for us. We wanted small, friendly, safe, dual purpose cattle with good personalities. We chose dexters and we're thrilled that we did. We love them. 2. When we went shopping, we were told the 100% truth by the breeders. ALL dexters have non-dexters in their backgrounds. All purebred registered dexters went through a process to become purebred registered Dexters. We researched it and we were 100% satisfied. 3. We also SAW the truth for ourselves that MANY (but certainly not all) "purebred" Dexters in America were scroungy MUTTS... with all sorts of terrible faults due to the backyard pet-trade breeding out of ANYTHING with papers. Many had bad feet, terrible udders, bad dispositions, and other serious problems. 4. We also SAW the truth that some North American breeders who know what quality cattle look like, imported some EXCELLENT British bulls that could fix the faults of many of the scroungy american dexters. Dexters are a BRITISH breed, and these HIGH QUALITY British bulls were imported from Britain from the finest purebred dual-purpose stock available. 5. American Dexters were a DYING breed, until some SMART folks imported some excellent genetics from Great Britain to help solve the American Dexter quality problem and reinvigorated this BRITISH breed in America. 6. Dexters are a BRITISH breed of cattle. The British are known for their EXCELLENT breeding skills. The reason these famous British bulls are famous, is that they are EXCELLENT. The British bulls that were brought in, met the Dexter standard better that many of the American animals. 7. If we didn't already have the polled gene in America, I'd be helping to bring it here. It saves thousands of calves each year from the TORTURE of de-horning. We Americans are THRILLED that a VERY HIGH QUALITY purebred dexter bull with a polled gene was imported from the home of the Dexter Breed (the British Isles). Every Dexter was originally imported from the British Isles. PS. If you want an all-American breed of cattle, there are a few truly American breeds like Piney Woods Cattle. They aren't a British breed like Dexters are and they are pure American. PPS. The only "lies" I've heard told in Dexters is chondro-breeders hiding the truth of the lethal gene and hiding the status of their animals. All polled animals are marked as polled in the public database, but many chondro breeders still hide the truth. |
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Post by genebo on Dec 17, 2014 1:27:16 GMT
I had the privilege to see the aftermath of a Lucifer descendant bull that went berzerk.
Judy was visiting with me on her way home from delivering some Dexters when her phone rang. It was a lady who lived about 50 miles from me and had a rescue farm/petting zoo. She had a Lucifer decendant bull there that had just begun raging, tearing up everything and scaring everybody inside.
Judy left my place immediately with her trailer in tow. I had to put away a few things before I could follow, so I was pretty far behind. When I arrived at the location, Judy was gone, with the bull in her trailer. I was told that she had left to go straight to the slaughterhouse with the bull.
I got to see the fencing first. It was oak board fencing lined with field fence. The boards had been shattered along the side facing the house. Then I saw the side of the barn, where the bull had rammed holes in it. The bull went in through one of the holes. Inside the barn, the structure that separated the stalls was all knocked down. I was shown a room in the barn with solid walls where a neighbor, a cattleman, had lured the bull and trapped him. Judy had backedd her trailer right up to that room and they had gotten the bull into her trailer.
I spoke to Judy on the phone. She was parked at the slaughterhouse. She had gotten there too late and it was closed. The bull had not stopped trying to tear up her trailer since they had gotten him in there. She told me that she was going to stay right there through the night and have him slaughtered first thing in the morning.
I went home. I found out that Judy paid to have the bull processed and donated the beef to the lady to distribute to some needy children that she worked with. I went to the farm to help repair damage and while there, I was given a sirloin steak that came from the bull. I took it home and ate it. It was actually quite good.
I promised myself that no such bull would ever live on Paradise Farm. Call me chicken if you will, but I really enjoy having visitors come here to mingle with and enjoy the Dexters. There is no place here for the threat of danger.
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Post by legendrockranch on Dec 17, 2014 1:27:52 GMT
Judy has not been the only one to comment on Lucifer's temperament and she is not the owner of many lucifer descendants whose temperament had them see the inside of an abbatoir either. And I have never read Judy stating that _all_ Lucifer descendants have temperament issues. A statement such as this would be careless considering the dam also has a say in the temperament of her calves. And as for Judy being responsible for damage to the breed and the association - well that is soley in your opinion and you should state that. Because there are many who find the openly sharing of information and constant assistance very welcoming. You have gone far and beyond just commenting on a link to your website information. I think you and some others become bored unless you are personally attacking others and that is why you continue to be a participant in this forum. Here in the US I have not seen anyone one more outspoken on Lucifer’s temperament than Judy on public forums. I've been on them probably a lot longer than you have.
As you have mentioned "she is not the owner of many Lucifer descendants whose temperament had them see the inside of an abbatoir either". Which is another interesting comment because she is apparently the spokes person for them.
It's an easy game, I'd would be thrilled to leave this forsaken place. The balls in Hans court.
Edited to add: I just saw Genebos post. How could I forget him? He comes in second with his comments on Lucifer and his temperament on public forums
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Post by genebo on Dec 17, 2014 2:26:46 GMT
About the only thing I have in common with Ms. Netti is that we both now own at least one Lucifer descendant. I got mine by a circuitous route and he has been castrated. She got one of hers from Kirk Cascade. With the whole ball of wax, Platinum, Outlaw and Lucifer rolled into the same pedigree.
I got my steer from a lady that had used Brenn to inseminate her cow. She got a bull when she wanted a heifer. The bull got his Lucifer ancestry from his dam. Unable to sell him, she had him castrated. She couldn't foresee herself eating him, so she offered him to me. I'd heard a lot of praise for the good beef that Brenn's offspring made, but I had never tasted it. I always bought my steers from other people, other lines. I bought this steer, figuring that the fact that he was castrated, plus his inheritance of Brenn's gentleness, would preclude him being a danger. I wanted to taste him!
He is a BUTTHEAD! He is unlike any Dexter I've ever owned. He's completely without manners and scares the people who are doing my farm work while I recuperate. I tried to get someone else to take him to raise, but got no takers. I have an obligation to raise him, because I offered 1/2 of him to be cooked and sold at the ADCA AGM next June. He's the only animal of any kind that has ever put me on the ground. Tossed me onto his back and carried me a short distance, until I fell off.
Come April, when the fresh green grass is lush, He will depart from here. I most certainly won't miss him. I will enjoy every bite.
That's my reason for one being on my property. What is yours? What prompts you to ignore all the stories. Do you warn your buyers about the possibilities? You're not letting a desire for red color lead you to ignore the possibilities, are you?
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Post by legendrockranch on Dec 17, 2014 3:22:08 GMT
You're not letting a desire for red color lead you to ignore the possibilities, are you? Oh Genebo, what are we ever going to do with you? If you go back and look through the animals I own you still see way more than one decendent of Lucifer in my animals and they were here before I purchased my bull from Kirk. In fact I just recently purchased another bull from Kirk and yes there is Lucifer in his back round also.
Here are my reasons:
"The Knotting Herd” was renowned for its quality and quantity of milk production with a great number of animals achieving the Register of Merit (RM). This is an English Classification for milk yield. To qualify a cow must give not less than 4000 pounds of milk in her first lactation, 5500 pounds in her second lactation, and 6900 pounds in her third lactation, all yields not less than 4% butterfat (BF). A bull must sire not less than 4 daughters meeting these requirements to get their RM".
I have been raising red going on 14 years. Recently however I have noticed others even on this forum chasing the red color. Oh yes different genetics but still chasing red.
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Post by genebo on Dec 17, 2014 18:37:34 GMT
My question was to ask if you warn your buyers of the possibilities of Lucifer descendants going berzerk or becoming mean as they mature?
You must have read the accounts of harm done by Lucifer descendants to their owners. It has been posted on so many different Dexter discussion boards that you have frequented. It was the topic of discussion for a while on the Homesteading Today Cattle forum, which is not just for Dexters, but for all cattle owners. It has been discussed on the Miniature Cattle group for all breeds. Lucifer is famous! As is his reason for demise.
Do you think that the ADCA should require all sellers of Lucifer descendants to warn their buyers about him?
It seems to me to be a dirty trick to latch onto the reputation for gentleness that Dexter cattle (especially the bulls) have warranted and then sell them a Lucifer descendant.
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Post by legendrockranch on Dec 17, 2014 20:09:35 GMT
I have NEVER had any problems with any descendant of Lucifer. If I did I would have purchased them back and they would have been sent to slaughter. Lucifer is so far back in my pedigrees that a court of law would have a hard time proving any temperament issues came from him or his descendants.
What I have read on other forum comes mainly from YOU and Judy. One just has to search dextercattle.proboards.com/ and they'll find it. Interesting that you didn't mention that forum where there are only Dexter breeders who should know. You mentioned the Homesteading Today Forum only you has said anything about his temperament.
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Post by genebo on Dec 17, 2014 20:56:32 GMT
You have me confused with Gene Pittman, who used the moniker "Gene" when posting on the discussion boards. It was out of respect for him that I chose to use the moniker "Genebo". I searched back through several of the Dexter discussion boards for mention of Lucifer. I came up with so many old posts I couldn't read them all. There sure are a lot! As far back as June, 2004, you and Kirk were doing battle with "Gene" over the same subjects you are doing battle over today. groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dextercattleonly/conversations/messages/769It's funny that after so many years, you still claim that you never heard anything bad about Lucifer except from Judy and me. Hey, I didn't even get my first Dexter until after Thanksgiving 2003. Nobody warned me about the danger of getting a Lucifer descendant. It was a combination of good luck and having Judy Sponaugle looking out for me that I didn't get one. Do you suppose that if I had started out with some of the outcrossed genetics I would have a different opinion of them now? Do you suppose that instead of praising the breed as a whole for the qualities that drew me to them, I would be defending that which I owned? Come on! I have better principles than that! Don't you understand that my position is to preserve the Dexter breed? I have genetic material from Traditional Dexters stored against the possibility that a misguided attempt to "improve" the herd will ruin it? It cost me $775 to do that. It will be worth it if it ever becomes necessary to retreat, to escape an unforeseen circumstance brought about by unknowing breeders. It happened before, with hybrid corn, and it can happen again with hybrid cattle. I'll post another thread to show what I mean. How an unforeseen thing happened when two breeds were crossbred. Not COULD happen, but DID happen. It is about a bull named Buckwheat. It's along the same lines as how a Lucifer descendant can become a berzerker after generations of hidden genes, that have never been identified. Well, maybe Kirk has identified the mean gene. He was using a polled test for years before it was invented. At least he claimed to, when touting his cattle. |
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Post by legendrockranch on Dec 17, 2014 21:24:31 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2014 0:40:12 GMT
while I am sure there are plenty of descendants that did not get Lucifers temperament. Some did I know of one son in the mid west that went nuts one day. He managed to kill a steer and kept going. He was shot in the field to stop him.
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Post by Donlin Stud on Dec 18, 2014 1:31:51 GMT
You know that noone here cares dont you? |
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Post by legendrockranch on Dec 18, 2014 2:22:05 GMT
I am sure there are plenty of descendants that did not get Lucifers temperament. That is my point, yet they way things have been said in the past you wouldn't think so. That is why I commented about a very well respected breeder who has a whole long article called "Beelzebub & Me. It is about Lucifers decentents and what he has seen. Why do you think he felt the need to put a article like this out?
Edited to add:
What the heck, here is the link to the website, so none of you think I'm making this up. I have used him as an example before and he hasn't cared. The Breeders name is Jeff Chambers, Silver Maple Dexters, once you look at his nice animals click on SMD Resources there you will see the article "Beelzebub & Me." website: www.silvermapledexters.com
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Post by jamshundred on Dec 18, 2014 16:30:43 GMT
Barbara,
HOLD ON BABS ! ! ! I believe in FULL DISCLOSURE and by all means a bull who HAS thrown NUMEROUS offspring with DANGEROUS dispositions in a breed where bulls are sold as being gentle. . . . . . . .should be made aware of this issue in this bloodline. There is absolutely no way a person with standards could disagree on me on this one!
I have said repeatedly. . . . . . repeatedly Barb . . . . . that NOT ALL Lucifer descendents are problematic. I personally sold a Lucifer descendent UNKNOWINGLY to another breeder, and that bull is still gentle and he has reached his teens. ( He is also a very big bull).
*I* am not the person who first related the problems with Lucifer's disposition. They were discussed by other breeders. I did NOT even know Lucifer was an upgraded bull until around 2004 when I began researching pedigrees and *I* should have known earlier than that. . . . . because I purchased some cows in 2000 and when I received the registration certificates there was an *X* following the number. I inquired of the registrar what that meant as none of my other certificates ever had an X after the number. I was told it was because there was an imported bull in the pedigree. I was NOT told it was an imported UPGRADED bull and the *X* stood for experimental registry.
I had heard of Lucifer having disposition issues. Then, in time, Mr. Chesterley related to me information about one of the earlier bulls imported from Canada to the US. He told me this bull was a lunatic and he described for me in detail his psychotic behavior. ( Can you imagine ANY breeder purchasing and using a bull who exhibited worrisome traits in a breed where bulls are marketed as gentle?). There was lots more to the information that Mr. Chesterley gave me. I saw a number of breeders on the talk boards who related putting down bulls from this line. At one time I had a list of 14. I became friends with a breeder who owned one of this line and I would not go in the field and if I was anywhere near the fence line I had a "rescue" plotted where I could run to safety. Had he not gotten rid of that bull I believe it would have killed him. I later heard the story of Lucifer going berserk, ( a trait I've seen myself) and being shot dead at a midwestern lifestock facility while being shipped to a breeder in PA. Sandy Thomas was treed by one that was carted to the sale barn afterwards. Carol Davidson has reported on these very chat boards on several occasions that the sire of Lucifer was known to have a poor disposition. So, ALL I have done is state that *I* believe breeders should fully inform people who buy bulls from these lines. I am even more passionate about this having seen it in person because they may be sweet while young. . . but Barb. . . . when they "flip out" they are terrifying to behold!
That Jeff Chambers has been fortunate to have a line of descendents that are not problematic so far is great! I hope, for his sake, none of them ever flip out on someone. . . . because I have witnessed it and if there is any chance it is being carried recessive. . . .. . I still believe buyers HAVE to be told of this issue. If Jeff Chambers is telling people there should be no concern about animals in this line then I would think he is wide open to a lawsuit by anyone who is injured. You are heavy into ETHICS if I am not mistaken. . . .then how on earth could you possibly. . . .ever. . .not see this as an ethical issue?
Frankly, Barb, I will take ALL the credit you want to give me for being a stand-up person and telling the truth about this blood line. Not every PIT-BULL dog is a monster-waiting-to-happen but one mangled or dead unsuspecting child or adult is one too many and there are Pit-bull owners who hate having to carry the stigma of the ones in the breed who have killed and maimed. Just tell people the truth. There are way too many instances and informationabout bulls from this line, including Lucifer and his sire themselves, not to be safe rather than sorry!
Judy
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Post by legendrockranch on Dec 18, 2014 17:06:45 GMT
Not every PIT-BULL dog is a monster-waiting-to-happen but one mangled or dead unsuspecting child or adult is one too many. Just tell people the truth. Judy you know darn well there have been cases of other bulls, yes even traditional ones that have gone crazy. I can point to an owner I've heard from here in Texas that shot their traditional horned dun bull because he gored a cow. Yet you keep harping about Lucifer and NO other bulls. No one knows all the instances or things that could have happened in that animal’s life to make such clams. While I do believe some animals have temperament problems, it sure would be nice to know how far down the pedigree the problematic animal was in order to absolutely prove the temperament problem came from them.
Your comment "just tell people the truth" The truth I will tell will be "my" truth from the experiences I have had, otherwise it just hearsay or rumors. If you have something in writing from owners that can point their experience directly related to Lucifer I will accept that.
I know genebo mentioned that he had a steer that was a butthead that had Lucifer on his dams side. Just curious as to how far back Lucifer was. Or is this just a blanket statement that because Lucifer was in the pedigree generations back it had to have come from him. Sire and Dam pedigree please.
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