Partisan discussion

[jamshundred]

I wonder if it possible to have a productive discussion on the issue of polled and traditional Dexters by the two camps?


The debate has been ongoing for 20 years but over the course of the last ten years breeders have discovered infornation hidden from them the first ten.  This withholding of information created the situation which has led to each side having an energetic if not striden opinion of the matter.

As a traditional breeder I feel betrayed by the association that gave itself permission to look out for the interests of this breed and then did not, instead established members (imo) looked out for their own interests.
I have never felt animosity or blame towards any post foundation breeders.  I felt they were just as betrayed.  Had they been fully informed their choices may have been different.   I do believe that the withholding of information created a situation where the established animals in the breed were changed through this lack of knowledge or available information being inaccurate and there are those of us who feel it was against the interests of the breed as it was established and the breeders who preserved it through the history of the herd in the US.  I feel there has been harm to both the breed and breeders.  I have more thoughts and feelings than these that churn through time on this issue. . .but this is a start.

As polled breeders. . . . . can you set aside the defensive position in which you find yourself and speak openly to how you have experienced the confirmation that indeed, the polled animals have several upgrades in their pedigrees and these are on record?   Did you feel betrayed to think you were raising animals that were "pure" and now there has been acknowledgement by your association and even the importer that . . . indeed. . . yes . . . there is upgrading? 

My solution has always been to seperate the registries into two categories.  I have always felt it is of paramount importance to the original traditional animals that new comers to the breed be able to make informed decisions as to their breeding choices.    How would you, as a polled breeder, think resolution could be achieved?

I know that my fellow traditional breeders would like resolution just as I am sure polled breeders would.  So what IS the resolution?  How do we remedy this situation?  



Judy 

[legendrockranch]

Judy, my animals are clearly marked with a "P' on there pedigree to delineate polled. Every Dexter breed association accepts polled, so no I do not feel betrayed. As I stated earlier I personally don't care.

Separate registries are you kidding, I know I have mentioned in the past that the Hereford breed tried this, splitting polled and horned, it didn't work and for many years now they have been merged back together for the betterment of the breed.. Having the ADCA and PDCA split I feel hurt the breed and some breeders. Now you want to take it further?

You still continue to attach the ADCA even though most of the board of directors that held office at that time are no longer directors, those positions have changes several time since than. Yet you still criticize them.

Wasn't it your intention when you started the legacy registry to give people a place to go to find what you call original genetics? What happened there?  That was a good solution.

I am sorry to say I don't think there is a remedy, I will never say never in this case though.  

[cascade]

Resolution:

1. Every animal coded as polled vs. horned AND every animal coded as chondro vs. non-chondro as part of registration.

2. Scientific terms used to describe ALL animals HONESTLY ..... Stop calling chondro-dexters code words like "shorties" especially since there are a lot of short dexters that are non-chondro. The word "short" should mean short.

3. Every buyer of polled or chondro animals given complete scientific facts in scientific terms including terms like "Heterozygous polled" and "Lethal Gene" and the breeding principles involved.

4. Educate everyone on the fact that the chondro gene hides the true genetic height of an animal, so the animal's true height genetics can be 5" to 9" taller. Educate folks concerning hetero-polled animals.

5. Every buyer of horned or polled or chondro genetics provided with a complete list of alternatives, for example, you CAN have short cows without the chondro, you CAN have naturally polled animals instead of dehorning, you can have rather traditional-looking shorter polled dexters withOUT chondro, you can manage horns mostly safely if you want, AND if you want SUPER-short animals you'll need the chondro-gene which is a lethal gene, but it is manageable.

6. People who want to preserve a "traditional" look of dexters, should educate ALL breeders what to breed for... There's no reason why a polled cow can't be bred to have mostly traditional features. Other than horns and chondro genes, what are those features?


PS.  I'm all in favor of choice IF people have FULL information in front of them and they have ALL options explained to them scientifically. If a fully informed buyer asked me for a 30" super-short chondro-cow and they fully understood the lethal gene and how to manage it, I'd happily send them to a chondro breeder to get what they are looking for.  I already send people looking for horns to a horned-breeder.

[lonecowhand]

What, are you thinking you're making the Rules here?

Lists, rules, resolutions, go for it! Nothing changes, a Real Dexter, a traditional Dexter still has integrity, still conforms to the Breed Standards. Go back a few generations, no problem, still Dexter! It's not "the Look" of Dexters that folks cherish , it's the whole package.

The solution is simple:

One can still seek out and find the real McCoy, the animal that has been treasured and bred for the last century and then some.

If you want one of them, you'll have to look hard, find a Traditional breeder with integrity: and you'll have to wait!

[redridge]

I have mostly polled and a few dehorned dexters. While I think the horns are beautiful, they do not fit well with my management style here.
I am one of those who feels I don't really have a dog in this fight because I had been told from the beginning that both were acceptable. Because my milking setup cannot accommodate horns, we dehorn calves. I have deigned stock because they ate good cows - it has nothing to do with horn or polled. Do I have a personal preference? Sure. But not so much so that I am willing to overlook much more important qualities.
My basic philosophy is that I don't really care if it's pink with purple polka dots - a good cow is a good cow. If it's healthy and productive and sound, has ease of calving, gives a little more milk than what the calf needs, and has a good temperament... any other attributes are negotiable.
I believe many dexter attributes are nothing more than personal preference... important to some, but not so much to others. To that I will add that eliminating either preference of any of the attributes could be removing a "good cow" from the gene pool and that would be a shame.
We need to remember that as more and more genetic markers become identified it will become increasingly easy to overlook "the cow". Let's not cut off our nose to spite our face.

When I milked ewes commercially people would ask me all the time what my favorite breed of dairy sheep was. My answer was always the same... the healthy, productive one. ;-) Do we really want to eliminate quality animals based on not having horns, or being short legged (chondro), or not having A2/A2 milk, or the next genetic test to come along? I fear too much knowledge can cause misplaced priorities. Looking at the big picture is more important. Fifty years from now we all want to know that the dexters that go back to ours are well structured, sound and healthy animals, with good temperaments. I really don't care if they are pink with purple polka dots - that's all just window dressing.

[jamshundred]

Hi Shari,

It is with great pleasure I see you participate.  Not because of discussions regarding upgrading but for your vast experience on the farm that you can share, especially with dairy experience and knowledge.

A while ago I had an Amish owner relate to me that his first time heifer was difficult to milk her teets were so hard to squeeze milk from.  At the time I thought " where is Shari when she is needed" but then Mike came along and related his experience that she would probably be easier to milk in later lactations as she matures and I sent that information along.

Glad to have you participating.
Judy