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Post by cascade on Dec 17, 2014 2:26:05 GMT
Saltaire Platinum was selected from among the world's best Dexters for his strong dexter genetic traits including his short stature of 42" at maturity. He's one of the shortest non-chondro Dexter bulls ever in the AI catalog. He's 6 inches shorter than the four largest AI bulls (who are all horned traditional dexters). 99% of calves from Platinum's descendents (out of over 100 calves born on our farm), have been unassisted easy births even out of 1st time heifers. He improves udders and feet and other traits. Most of the non-chondro shorter purebred Dexter bulls in today's AI catalog, descend from the Excellent Saltaire Platinum. Note: As you can see below, Saltaire Platinum has shorter legs, but he was called "long legged" in the old AI catalog because that was the code word for "Non Chondro" back in the olden days before the gene was discovered and understood. He carries NO LETHAL Genes and his legs aren't long.  There is NO record of any other breeds in Saltaire Platinum's 6 generation PUREBRED pedigree. But like ALL Dexters, he has some non-dexters in his distant background. His EXCELLENT compact dexter phenotype and EXCELLENT breeding record has triggered lots of unsubstantiated rumors. That's common with the BEST and most FAMOUS bulls. Mediocre bulls rarely attract attention. |
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Post by cascade on Dec 17, 2014 3:03:45 GMT
Saltaire Platinum has lots of the famous Woodmagic herd in his background and that's why he has truly shorter genetics, without the LETHAL chondro gene. Woodmagic Hedgehog III (non-chondro, true-short)  Saltaire Platinum (non-chondro, true short) at 42", He's got a lot of Woodmagic in him.  |
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Post by cascade on Dec 17, 2014 3:13:46 GMT
Saltaire Platinum wasn't used just for his polled gene. He also produced a lot of good truly small, non-chondo, horned cows. Here's a traditional horned, true short, 38", non-chondro dexter cow with Saltaire Platinum on her pedigree 17 times.... she'll likely top out at around 40"  |
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Post by lakeportfarms on Dec 18, 2014 3:32:24 GMT
We just got this e mail today from a gentleman who has been conversing with a representative of the Dexter Cattle Society about Saltaire Platinum and the upgrading. He said they were going to publish the information. Seems like we'll be getting a forwarded copy soon.
"Hi Sheril
The English Dexter Society contacted me today and the bulletin is now out with the upgrading of the Dexters. He said he would forward me a copy in a few days. Do you want me to forward to you?"
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Post by cascade on Dec 18, 2014 5:07:31 GMT
ALL Dexters have "upgrading" in their backgrounds. ALL Dexters came from other breeds. "Purebred" means that the animals have gone through a breeding and selection process to select for dexter traits and they were allowed into a purebred registry at some point in the past. Saltaire Platinum is an excellent purebred Dexter bull from a quarter of a century ago. Researching his distant background is pointless.
If you could trace ALL dexters, including so-called "traditional" and "legacy" dexters back to their roots, you will see TONS of other breeds.
How did those "legacy" and "traditional" dexters become "pure" when they ALL come from other breeds?
Answer: There is no such thing as true "Purity" since ALL Dexters come from other breeds.... But they can become "purebred" via a breeding and selection process.
I suppose I could spend the rest of my life tracing the thousands of ancestors of Dexters back to their non-dexter roots, but that's a useless waste of time. Instead, I'll just walk out into the pasture and make observations for future breeding decisions, to refine the herd to improve quality and meet the Purebred Dexter Breed Standard.
PS. Thanks for the very nice offer to forward a copy (will it be online anywhere?)... sure, I'll take a look at it but it's really not very meaningful to me.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Dec 18, 2014 13:29:51 GMT
If you notice, the message was in quotation marks. That was what was sent to us. But once I've received it I'll be sure to post it online for as many people to see as possible.
I think this puts the nail in the coffin of the "fresh mutation" story. Of course if somebody is willing to lie about that, you have to wonder about the lies that may have taken place in other areas, like his 42" measurement at 3 years of age, right?
Bulls from upgraded lines were not eligible for registry, much less collected for AI. If the truth had been known at the time, I think it's safe to say that SP would never have been accepted for registry into the ADCA.
I'm sure Judy already knows about all this, but perhaps she'll jump in to clarify and expand on it.
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Post by jamshundred on Dec 18, 2014 15:30:57 GMT
Kirk,
Could you reduce the size of the photos you publish please. They are taking up lots of space that we have for photos.
Your subject line is also in error; SALTAIRE PLATINUM IS *NOT* PUREBRED. Two great granddams in his pedigree were only 50-50. He does not make the 4 generations to purebred on either side.
Your "may" be correct in "your" assessment that he is an excellent bull. . . . . . but he is still a GRADE bull.
Judy
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2014 15:35:48 GMT
kirk the picture you post with claims of it being a traditional dexter and in the same sentence you say it has a ton of platinum. It is not a traditional dexter perhaps you dont understand what people are referring to when they describe a dexter as traditional. I think you do though and just continue to post things you know are false.
Also false is that all dexters have upgrading. Maybe you dont understand what that term means ether.
All catlle come from only 2 species bos taurus and bos indicus. But since there have been many changes. That is how breeds form. you seem to think it is ok to mix those changes all back up and if that is what you want to do fine but once you do that dont make claims that they are still the same. If they were why have any breeds or registries. Just go ahead any breed any old cross breed you want. According to you they all came from the same place so it does not matter.
is that simple enough for you to grasp the concept that pure breed cattle and cross bread/upgraded are not the same.
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Post by jamshundred on Dec 18, 2014 15:52:38 GMT
Hans,
If you are referencing the spring and now the winter articles in the UK Bulletin by Andrew Sheppy they do not reference Saltaire Platinum. It is a given in England that he is an upgrade. Repeatedly an upgrade.
These articles utimately reference three historical bulls that have been suspected of upgrading by some over the course of time.
Grinstead Plover - Because of the dun coloring of descendents
Shadwell Robert - Again because of coloring in descendents
Parndon Charley Pudding - Again because of color in descendents.
Plover has importance in the US because of the Woodmagic ancestry.
Shadwell Robert is in a number of US pedigrees and the AI bull, Cornahir Outlaw is closely connected
Parndon Charley Pudding is the recorded sire of Parndon Bullfinch, present in all US pedigrees with the exception of Legacy animals. He is also in the Saltaire Platinum Pedigree.
I will post the articles once I have permission that it will not violate copyrate.
Judy
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Post by cascade on Jan 4, 2015 4:06:37 GMT
The Sheppy Article seems to confirm that most all Dexters come from non-Dexter backgrounds. But that's a fact that we already know.
ALL dexters were upgraded from Kerrys and other breeds of cattle. Upgrading = converting from one breed of cattle (Kerry mix), to the desired breed of cattle (Dexters) by selecting for desired traits of the new breed over several generations.
By the way, there is no evidence that Saltaire Platinum's great grandmothers were any certain percentage of non-dexter. While records seem to show that there was some miscellaneous unknown upgrading in their backgrounds, there is NO MENTION OF PERCENTAGES. The non-purebreds involved may have been 92% purebred dexter. Saltaire Platinum could easily be 99% purebred and his size and look definitely fits the dexter standard BETTER than many of the horned traditional dexter bulls in the AI directory.
Again, Saltaire Platinum was 42" at 3 years of age, and that is 6" SHORTER than the tallest AI bulls that are traditional horned Dexters at 48" at 3-4 years of age. The Dexter standard of being under 44" at 3 years of age, is meant to be applied to 3 year olds.
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Post by jamshundred on Jan 5, 2015 2:59:17 GMT
Kirk,
Saltaire Platinum may be a very attractive bull in the eyes of those who like polled breeds. . .. but there is nothing YOU can do to change the FACT he is not a purebred Dexter. He is a GRADE bull. Of all the descriptions availabe in the world of cattle. . .GRADE is the only one which fits him.
Let me do this again. . . . PLEASE reduce the size of the photos. They are too big, and before other folks who post photos decide to get in a large-photo posting contest. . . . I am asking you again. . pull the photos, resize and repost please.
Judy
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jan 5, 2015 13:38:46 GMT
Kirk, I know you're not stupid, so your quoting of heights is clearly a deliberate attempt to mislead those who may not have the experience or inclined to wade through all the disinformation you post.
The traditional bulls you mention have mostly all been measured when they have reached maturity, which is several years past 2-3 years of age when the polled bulls you cite have been collected. If you have information on the height that Saltaire Platinum was at 6 to 9 years of age it would be a much more accurate comparison.
Wieringa's Ned, whom you like to specifically point to, was twice AGM champion in the mature bull class. Therefore Ned has results from showing that prompted the Wieringa's to have him collected for AI. Yes, he was a large bull (some people like that) but not necessarily representative of the traditional lines Dexter bulls that are out there with regards to height. Several other traditional bulls on the AI page were collected for different reasons, such as they carried red which is quite rare in traditional lines, had excellent conformation, or even desire of the owners who liked the bull a lot and wanted to have his semen available for their own breeding reasons, and offer the semen to others as a means to defray some of the costs of collection and storage. Collected and measured at a later age meant they probably also had some VERY nice MATURE progeny on the ground, perhaps even some mature line-bred progeny that was exceptional, and on that basis the owners decided to collect him (skewing the height measurement in comparison to your polled bulls measured at 2-3 years of age). These older traditional bulls are the definition of a WELL PROVEN BULL!
NONE of the polled bulls on the AI page have any results at the AGM (Clearly I understand SP was an English bull, but he was certainly collected on the basis of his polled status) Almost certainly the other polled bulls on the page were collected primarily on the basis of their polled status (hetero or homo polled), with color and A2 status being the other driving factors. Some of them were measured and collected at a VERY YOUNG age which would support that reasoning, and they were nowhere near what most experienced breeders would consider PROVEN. It was purely speculation about the possible quality of their mature progeny, which may or not have been realized.
Don't you think people should have ALL of the information about bulls they may be considering using?
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jan 5, 2015 13:55:36 GMT
Regarding AI bull heights, here is a both sides Platinum bull (Platinum is grandfather or great-grandfather on three lines of the pedigree) So this bull is very heavy with Saltaire Platinum genetics. Supposedly 40" at 3 years of age:  Here is an undated photo of the same bull on his pedigree page. Looking only at his leg length, do you really think he is 40" tall???  Here is our bull, Shamrock Mike, 39" tall at 9 years of age if you want to compare the difference.  |
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Post by genebo on Jan 5, 2015 17:02:48 GMT
Hans,
The height of a bull is not the easiest thing to measure. It takes a skilled person, with the right conditions, to get an accurate measurement.
Many of the measurements you read should be taken with a grain of salt. Soe of the things which can produce an inaccurate measurement are the conditions under which many are measured. For example:
Measuring while the bull stands on soft ground will produce a measurement shorter than true.
Measuring while the bull stands on unlevel ground will produce a measurement that is shorter or taller than true, depending upon which side you stand to take the measurement.
Measuring while sighting over the back of the bull has the potential to be off by a wide margin.
To take an accurate measurement, the bull should be standing still, with feet under the hips, on a firm, level surface. The measurement should be taken with a carpenter's level placed upon the hips and the bubble centered. Measure from ground to the bottom of the level, making sure that the measuring instrument is vertical.
The site that I use for measurement is floored with granite screenings, that are firm, but must be leveled before each session. I scrape the floor level using a 4 foot carpenter's level. It's rough on the tool, but worth it. Then I use the measuring instrument shown in the picture. The tool is called a 48" adjustable drywall square. I added a level to the horizontal arm where it is easy to see. This lets me be sure that I'm getting the correct hip measurement.
Double check your measurement by taking it again from the other side. If your site is good and your technique is good, the measurements will match.
I have completely given up on taking random measurements in the pasture. The results vary so much. It is easy to take a good measurement once you have a good site prepared.
Keep track of your animal's birthday and plan a measurement on that day.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jan 5, 2015 18:26:05 GMT
Gene, you're absolutely correct. I don't trust many of the measurements taken of the AI bulls at all.
We used a slightly different approach using the tools I had available from my business. A self leveling laser that is used for construction on a tripod on a concrete floor was used to determine the hip height. The spot where the bull stood was marked on the floor, and then a yardstick taped to a 4' level was placed on the spot. Since Mike was a bit taller than 36", we measured the difference between the laser line and the end of the yardstick.
Very accurate, the bull could move around a bit but we could still place the horizontal laser line at the top of the hip despite the movement, and then the height was determined with the bull moved out of the way so we could be sure the measurement taken was with a perfectly plumb level standing on end. Frankly, with technology readily available like this there is no reason not to do it this way. Plus if you have some construction projects the laser comes in handy for those things too!
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Post by cascade on Jan 5, 2015 18:51:18 GMT
The ONLY measure that counts according to the breed description, is the measure at 3 years of age. The breed description says that bulls should be between 38" and 44" at 3 years of age. Here are ALL AI bulls with measures reported at 38" to 44" at precisely 3 years (these are ALL non-chondro) Saltaire Platinum was 42" at 3 years of age Woodmagic Hedgehog III was 39" at 3 years of age  Gladhour Lenny P = 43" at 3 years (polled descendant of Saltaire Platinum)  Shome Mark = 42" at 3 years (polled descendant of Saltaire Platinum)  SGF LCIN Tighe = 40" at 3 years (polled descendant of Saltaire Platinum)  Belle Fourche Mr. Right = 43.5" at 3 years (polled descendant of Saltaire Platinum)  Lane's End Microcosm = 39.5" at 3 years  PS. Chondrodysplasia is a genetic disease that interferes with normal bone growth, so you can't compare chondro-dwarfs with non-chondro normal Dexters. Chondro-dwarfs true genetic height is MUCH taller (5-9 inches) than they appear.... But since no chondro bulls in the AI catalog have a 3 year old measure, I excluded them anyway. |
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jan 5, 2015 19:39:06 GMT
The ONLY measure that counts according to the breed description, is the measure at 3 years of age. The breed description says that bulls should be between 38" and 44" at 3 years of age. So then why do you cite examples of traditional bulls measured over 44" between 4-9 years of age as being too tall? If you expect anybody to take you seriously, then you need to be consistent, and honest with your comparisons. Most people don't think about collecting their bull for A.I prior to three years of age, and I suspect that horned or traditional breeders do not collect until a number of years later, after the bull has proven himself to be capable of producing excellent offspring. That was the case with us, after Mike's daughter Paula won her 4th or 5th AGM Mature Cow Grand Champion titles. I agree with Gene, that it should be important to measure your bull ACCURATELY at three years of age, even if at the time you don't intend on collecting him, as that decision may change, or a subsequent owner may decide to collect him. I wish I had...we purchased Mike when he was 4 years old, and I can assure you he grew several inches between then and when he was collected at 9 years old. I think Patti Adams has also mentioned that she believes that chondro bulls reach their mature size at an earlier age than non-chondo bulls. I agree with that theory based on my personal observations. The reason you see many polled bulls measured at two and three years of age is because that bull possesses one particular trait (polled) that encourages the owners to collect him and try to earn an income from selling his semen as early as possible. It is not because he has produced a number of MATURE Dexters that are exceptional, including being linebred back to their father. I believe you've made the importance of that yourself on Olga's board a year or two ago, Kirk. That a two or three year old bull will produce high quality mature Dexters is only speculation at such a young age. |
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Post by genebo on Jan 6, 2015 2:13:14 GMT
It makes me wonder why Saltaire Platinum would be included in a list of AI bulls. I can't find a listing for him with the ADCA or PDCA. I wonder where the supposed facts about him originated? Was it from a trustworthy source, one known for truth and veracity?
Where is the contact information that is displayed with all the other bulls?
I guess we're supposed to swallow this as we're expected to swallow everything else that has been posted about him.
The only verified data I've ever seen about Platinum was that which Judy amassed from the English records she so tediously collected. The English and the rest of the world are beginning to be aware of the facts that the records prove. Why is it still in doubt here? Could there possibly be a deep financial interest that blocks acceptance of what was suspected from the very first?
We would be so far ahead in our promotion of Dexter cattle if we were to insure that the ones we were promoting were worthy of the name. Why would anyone want to promote cattle that were acknowledged to be less than what they were claimed to be? Traditional Dexters are still available in about the same quantities that were available 10 years ago. What pleasure can be gained from the promotion of animals that were almost Dexters?
There is a long list of almost Dexters that can be bought. Half Jerseys, part Herefords, and a long list of others. Gradwohl was a master of the promotion of "new breeds" of miniature cattle that were derived from Dexter stock. As distasteful as that seemed to some, you had to give him credit for devising new names for his creations. I hold my strongest dislike for those who insist upon trading on the Dexter name to promote their creations. The decent thing to do would be to find a new name for their creations that could stand on its own.
Once they got their new name accepted, they could stop deriding the Dexters whose reputation they are currently trading on. Maybe then they could devote themselves to finding something positive to write about their stock, instead of writing negative stuff about Traditional Dexters.
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Post by cascade on Jan 7, 2015 2:01:04 GMT
All Registered Purebred Dexters (including traditional and legacy Dexters) have scores of non-dexters in their distant backgrounds including Kerry cattle and many other breeds. What makes a purebred dexter, a purebred dexter, is being accepted into a recognized Purebred Dexter registry AND purebred Dexter breeders should do their best to breed for these key dexter traits over time:
We should all be selecting for these important Dexter traits, generation after generation:
1. Bulls MUST be VERY friendly and VERY manageable, with lots of personality
2. Cows MUST be sweet and let us work with their newborn calves (tagging/weighing, etc), and should have lots of personality.
3. Dexters must be COMPACT (not too large, not too small) Bulls between 38"- 44" at 3 years.
4. Dexters must be Black, Dun, or Red... no white other than near udders up to navel.....horns are great, polled is MUCH better than de-horning.
5. Dexters must be Healthy and Hardy - can thrive and easily calve WITHOUT much shelter (other than trees/shade). Can thrive without a lot of chemicals, without a lot of vet work, without a lot of shots. Should have STRONG immune systems.
6. Dexters must be Thrifty - can thrive on forage and minerals alone WITHOUT requiring grain supplements.
7. Dual purpose and productive... Beefy, and milky enough, but not so milky that they MUST be milked.
8. Lots of good general cattle conformation (sound udders, sound feet, strong backs, correct legs, good tracking, masculine bulls, etc.)
9. Dexters should be long-lived... Cows should tend to make it to 18+ healthy productive years with no early arthritis, Bulls should tend make it to 13+ healthy years (if you don't eat them first).
Saltaire Platinum and a large number of his descendants meet these criteria nicely.
Most of the AI bulls that meet the 38" - 44" at 3 years criteria, are Saltaire Platinum descendants.
PS. While ALL purebred traditional dexters have scores of non-dexters in their backgrounds, no one has ever recorded any specific recorded breeds other than Dexters in the background of Saltaire Platinum (if I'm wrong about this, then provide the breed name, and show where that named breed is on the pedigree).
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Post by genebo on Jan 7, 2015 20:18:25 GMT
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Post by legendrockranch on Jan 7, 2015 22:45:28 GMT
I fail to see your point in referencing Platinum & dwarf cattle. Are you implying that Dwarf Dexters came in from Angus???
Here are a few better links to Dwarf cattle. Please note Hans, the one link will take you to Dr. Kaisers site, she is the Doctor I referred you to when you had the problematic calf born. It is important to note that none of these types of dwarfism carriers are allowed to be registered. The respective breed associations have decided long ago not to allow carriers into their registry. I have a real nice picture of a snorter Hereford but for some reason can not post it.
www.asi.k-state.edu/doc/agents/gendefects.pdf
kaisercattle.com/pdf/MCA%20Defects%20combined.pdf
jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/47/3/107.extract
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Post by cascade on Jan 7, 2015 23:04:50 GMT
There is ZERO record of any angus in Saltaire Platinum's background, but even the most traditional of dexters have lots of non-dexters in their backgrounds. Here's a 38" girl with Saltaire Platinum on her pedigree 17 times.... She'll likely top out at 40" (non Chondro of course) Don't see any Angus here  Here's a 4 year old Saltaire Platinum linebred bull - Homozygous polled, A2/A2, non-chondro, sweet as a puppy No angus here  Here's an angus  Here's another angus  Below is a show-winning Traditional Horned Dexter Bull (dehorned) - he's 100% traditional and has ZERO Saltaire Platinum These breeders win more Dexter shows than anyone else. The sire of this bull has more offspring than Saltaire Platinum  |
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jan 7, 2015 23:47:48 GMT
Hey Kirk, I suppose you don't know the story about Wieringa's Huey, the Dexter bull above, since you don't know the Wieringa's and haven't seen Huey in person (I have). First of all, Roberta is maybe 5'2", and Lee is probably about 5'9". Also, Huey isn't a traditional Dexter, as he has Lucifer in his pedigree. However, the Wieringa's do raise some pretty large size bulls, because that is what they select for. They seem to have no problem finding buyers for them, and their success at the shows speaks for itself.
The photo of Huey that was taken at the AGM didn't turn out well. So the photo was retaken at the Wieringa's barn, and then heavily photoshopped to make it look like it was taken at the AGM. And like I said, I've seen Huey in person and have stood next to him, and I can assure you that at my height (6') I was not just barely peering over the top of his head like Lee is. Huey's a big boy, larger than what I care to raise, but he's nowhere near the size of an Angus, and that's speaking from personal experience, because we raised Angus prior to getting so heavily into Dexters.
We have no way of confirming your claims about the age of the Dexters of yours that you post. In my mind, the horns on that heifer you show are that of a yearling, based on the horn sizes of our yearlings, and I'm sure other breeders who have significant experience with horned Dexters would agree.
It's -30 with windchill out tonight with snow squalls. Frankly, miniaturized non-chondro Dexters do not do so well in the bitter cold and snowy weather here. Our full bodied chondro cows and bulls do MUCH better in the cold temperatures.
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Post by cascade on Jan 8, 2015 4:12:39 GMT
This short non-chondro cow is 2 years old and a little under 38" (she will likely be about 39 inches at 3 years.) You can't tell how long her horns are very well because this is mostly a side view. Saltaire Platinum is on her pedigree 17 times. Here is her 4 year old polled mother (non-chondro) who is getting ready to have her 3rd calf She has inherited Saltaire-Platinum's naturally short size. Saltaire Platinum is on her pedigree 11 times.  Saltaire Platinum has lots of true-short descendents. 70% of the shorter bulls in the AI directory are Saltaire Platinum Descendants I wonder why judges don't give very low scores to bulls under 38" or over 44" in shows... since that's the breed description. Saltaire Platinum at 42" at 3 years, fits the breed description perfectly. |
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jan 8, 2015 11:59:33 GMT
Wow, those cows make awfully big piles of manure!
She's a nice cow Kirk, however I really wouldn't want a herd of cows just like her if she's going to throw that size to the steers she raises. One of the things you just don't seem to grasp is how a chondro cow can outproduce herself. Remember, we don't need to sell every Dexter, cow or bull, as breeding stock. There are a lot of cows out there that are best eaten as well. When I have a small carrier cow that produces large, I get the benefits of a short efficient animal producing a more normal size steer or cow. She's probably a bit young to have raised a steer to 2 years yet, but when she does it would be interesting to hear what kind of hanging weight you get.
We have a very small chondro cow, much shorter than the one you pictured there but with a much deeper and full body, that raised a 460 lb hanging weight steer, 27 months old, raised on grass only with no grain. He weaned at 10 months at the same if not a little taller height than she was. She calved a month after he was weaned and is just now at the point of weaning him at 11 months. She looks great and is in perfect condition despite a break from nursing while simultaneously carrying a calf of only a couple of months in the past three years
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Post by cascade on Jan 8, 2015 21:50:05 GMT
Those mounds of dirt in the photo above are mole hills (I hate them, but I suppose they help cycle the soil) Chondro Dexters, like black-baldy cattle, are hybrids (normal x chondro)... So you can get some hybrid beef raising advantages in the F1 generation if you know what you're doing. You can say that same thing about hybrid corn, hybrid tomatoes, and hybrid chickens. You could probably get even better hybrid beef production if you crossed an angus bull onto a chondro-dexter cow.... But hybrids are problematic and they don't breed true. Here's a hybrid chicken just like the kind you buy in the grocery store... they grow VERY fast and produce huge breasts in 8 short weeks. But these hybrid chickens have health problems and they can't be bred together, and they don't breed true (you get a mishmash of results if you try to breed them together). This unfortunate hybrid was an egg, just 8 weeks ago.. They can't walk normally, so they sorta waddle. Inability to walk and run normally, helps keep them sedated and putting more energy into meat production.  Instead of relying on hybridization trickery to get excellent meat production results, some breeders are working on growing true-breeding strains of chickens (and cows) that grow fast enough and have healthy long lives, and breed true. They don't quite match the meat production results of the hybrids... But they are healthy and simple and trouble-free and they breed true generation after generation after generation. Here's a true-breeding heritage meat chicken (not a hybrid)  In Dexters, rather than relying on hybrid trickery, breeders can breed for true-breeding faster growth and beefier calves if they select for those traits generation after generation. Relying on hybridization (chondro x non-chondro) interferes with the selection of desired true-breeding traits. Another problem with Chondro, is that many people want 100% short, friendly, productive cattle and they aren't trying to run a maximized hybrid meat operation. A sweet little chondro cow throws big scary GIANT offspring 50% of the time. This amazing photo below shows the LARGE bulls that sweet little chondro cows often produce (correct me if I'm wrong, but that giant bull standing behind the short little chondro mom, is the calf of that short little chondro mom). That's terrific for hybrid beef production, but could be a nightmare for someone wanting a friendly, small, herd of cattle.  For folks who want simplicity and want 100% short, productive, friendly cattle, they can just get a quality true-short bull and true-short cow and put them together and watch their true-short herd grow (keep the best and eat the rest), without worrying about all the technicalities and mish-mashed results involved with hybrid-chondro's. |
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Post by genebo on Jan 9, 2015 1:17:45 GMT
Did you ever stop to think that the "big, scary GIANT offspring that the shortie cow throws is what you have chosen to raise 100% of the time? They are called non-carriers of chondro, or long legged.
That is what all my cows are. Ask anybody that has ever been here and seen them, just how big and scary they are. They are NOT! They are all within the height guidelines set by the PDCA and the ADCA. The calves I get from breeding them to my short legged bulls have all been within the ADCA/PDCA height guidelines, except one. That is 1 out of 29 that was taller than the guideline. The only other ones that grew to be above the height guidelines came from a non-chondro bull. 1 out of 3. I sold that bull to someone who wanted to raise beef. I replaced him with a short legged bull that threw smaller calves than that long legged bull.
There is nothing in this wide world to compare to an old style dwarf Dexter. The height alone is wonderful, but the other traits that accompany the short stature make it such an attractive choice. The gentle temperament, the feed conversion, the overall health. The absence of intimidation from these little cattle is a strong selling point.
Hardly a day goes by without a newcomer to cattle discovering the perfect little breed we have. It's hard to resist the sight of a milk cow that you can look down on! Pictures of a pair of little Dexter oxen even makes me pause to enjoy the sight. I love the pictures of a tranquil herd of little Dexters, peacefully grazing.
I even had a man offer to buy one of my short legged Dexter bulls for his rodeo. Not for bucking, but to parade around between events carrying children on his back. He said he'd have grandmas and grandpas crying in the grandstands. Even a showman recognizes the uniqueness of our little dwarf dexters. You would not believe the price he offered for that bull.
I am known for being someone who raises short legged Dexters. I get a lot of phone calls from people who want to buy a shortie cow or bull. I seldom have any for sale. The long legged fairy has been working overtime here. I do keep track of who else has shorties for sale and refer them to those breeders. We have developed quite a network of shortie owners. The important thing to take from this is that the constant corping about our dwarf Dexters has dried up the supply. Short legged Dexters are in great demand. You can sell a shortie quicker than you can sell a long legged one. If you are in this for the money, pay attention.
The fact that one lonely man finds no better way to spend his time than in belittling what so many of us find attractive, and doing it over and over and over and over, apalls me.
I dare you to write a post that says only good things about our favorite little dwarf cattle. I bet you can't do it.
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Post by cascade on Jan 9, 2015 5:51:27 GMT
I think long legs are a fault to be corrected in Dexters.
I think anything less than VERY gentle is a fault to be corrected in Dexters.
I think lethal genes are a fault to be corrected (over time) in ALL ANIMALS.
I think shorter legs are a very good thing in Dexters. But you can have 100% shorter legs AND very friendly WITHOUT lethal chondro genes.
Here are 5 ways to get short legs in dexters:
1. Starve the mothers and calves and create nutritional dwarfs
2. Give the mother chemicals that cause birth defects to create chemical dwarfs
3. Pay a surgeon to remove bone from the legs of calves to create surgical dwarfs
4. Purposefully use lethal bone defect genes to give calves a genetic bone defect, creating lethal gene dwarfs
5. Simply select for truly genetically shorter-legged calves, generation after generation.
The first 4 methods have ethical issues and do nothing to change the true genetic height of the animals. The last method (#5) is the ONLY way to truly achieve a truly short herd that meets the ADCA Dexter Breed description of 3 year old bulls at 38" to 44"
True-Shorts breed true and can have 100% shorter legged calves, WITHOUT the lethal chondrodysplasia genes.
I'm happy that dexters with shorter legs are in good demand. Dexters need to have shorter legs in order to meet the breed description of 38" to 44" for bulls at age 3. The good news is that if you have too tall of dexters, you can use method #5 (selecting for naturally shorter dexters) to gradually bring down the true size of your herd.
Some people are attempting to use method 4 (chondro lethal gene) and method 5 (naturally short) at the same time... That's better than just using the chondro-gene alone to mask tall animals.... BUT it can result in TOO short of animals because when you use the Chondro gene on a true-short animal, you may get a bull that is less than 38" at 3 years of age (That's TOO short according to the breed description).
Here's the good thing I have to say about truly short little dexters.... You can have an entire herd of truly short little friendly productive true-breeding true-short dexters, WITHOUT lethal genes. You can keep a natural herd of them and never have lethal bulldog defects, and never have any "long legs" (once you breed the too-long-legs out of your herd).
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Post by bruff64 on Jan 9, 2015 11:06:16 GMT
Long legs are a fault to be corrected....depends on ones goals I suppose. I am more interested in dairy qualities of the breed, there are plenty of folks working towards the beef side of the dual purpose equation. I prefer the genetics that resemble the Kerry connection over the direction of a lot of the dexters out there today. But, this is my preference. Still within the standard description, just at one end of the spectrum. We have one Chondro Carrier here with a good dose of Colorado in her. I look forward to what she will provide genetically in her offspring, Chondro or long leg. There is a lot of diversity in this breed of cattle. Thats a good thing in my opinion. However, with such a diverse catalog of genetics available there is inevitably going to be a lot of diversity of opinions. Chondro, long leg, Kerry type, polled variations can be a strength for the breed overall. The American Milking Devon folks split over the beef/polled argument many years ago. The polled beef folks went their on way or vise versa. Its not necessary. Doesn't have to be that way. Breed towards your own goals and leave others to do the same. At this point no one is breeding outside the goals of the standard.  |
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jan 9, 2015 14:14:09 GMT
Well, I guess you need something there to break up the soil Kirk. For us, it's called -20 Farenheit and a 48" deep frost line. That big scary bull is actually a steer, standing beside his mother. The picture of him was taken at 26 months of age, about a month before we sent him off to be processed. Mom is 36"; you can sort of tell by the height of the horizontals of the gate that sits there on the ground. The steer based on the height of the gate at 48" is around 44". He hung at 460 lbs. His mom had just weaned a chondro bull calf (who went to a new home with small children as the bull for their Dexter cows), and was two months from delivering another calf, also a chondro bull, that is going to a new Dexter owner who wishes to raise his own beef and doesn't want a large bull on the fairly limited acreage he owns. More than likely, after he's bred the cows a couple of times, he'll be put in the freezer and they will start over by purchasing another chondro bull. So he has a bull, that will breed his cows while simultaneously growing and filling out nicely to go in the freezer at 30 months or so. Pretty economical breeding compared to AI when you consider the beef you'll get out of him when he's finished his job, and you have a bull that (especially for those new to cattle) is not intimidating. Our little bull Shadwell, 6 years old, was one of the star attractions at the fair we took him to last summer. They couldn't believe their eyes at the waist high bull that looked every bit at mature and "bull like" (actually even more so because Shadwell had horns) as the Angus and Simmental bulls in the same tent as us. And clearly mom in the photo you posted doesn't have much of an appetite compared to a larger cow, yet she's able to produce and raise a steer that exceeds that of a "miniaturized Dexter". Even for her chondro steers, remember they have the bodies of nearly a non-carrier, while being much shorter, along with the other benefits that Genebo describes in his post above. I don't really care if I have some chondro cows or bulls that are slightly below the height guidelines. Remember they are guidelines specifically because there is such a wide variation in heights. However remember that my 34" tall chondro cow will likely have the depth and spring of rib of a much larger cow. The two cows below are 13 years (black) and 8 years (dun) of age. Large bodies on very short legs. There is no way your breedings will EVER produce anything that resembles this. Like it or not, some of us find this VERY desirable.  |
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