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Post by lakeportfarms on Jan 9, 2015 16:07:09 GMT
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Post by otf on Jan 9, 2015 16:47:15 GMT
I don't know what to say after watching those videos, Hans.
Yes, nice, mild-tempered bull; but as we all know, bulls can be unpredictable.
Cute kid, certainly.
But what parent in his right mind would put his 7 yr. old child at risk in this manner? Am I the only one who thinks this is absolutely insane?
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Post by genebo on Jan 9, 2015 19:35:19 GMT
Let me correct the usage of the word hybrid in an earlier post. A hybrid is a cross between two different breeds or species. For example, a Dexter x Angus could be called a hybrid. A horse x donkey is a hybrid, called a mule. A Dexter x Dexter is not a hybrid. The use of the term F1 to describe a Dexter x Dexter breeding is so wrong.
Surely, the very first chondro carrier bovine, of whatever breed of cattle it occurred in, was a spontaneous mutation in a single animal. That animal obviously survived to breed and pass on its mutated gene. This has to have occurred way back in history, for I read with extreme interest the posts by the English lady who has studied chondro quite a bit. She found evidence of chondro in very old, fossilized bones. Chondrodysplasia pre-dates Dexter cattle. It occurred in the cattle that Dexters were selected from. It is the biggest factor in the creation of the Dexter breed. Without it, who knows if there ever would have been a Dexter breed.
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Post by cascade on Jan 9, 2015 21:57:10 GMT
Breed towards your own goals and leave others to do the same. At this point no one is breeding outside the goals of the standard.  I agree that each of us should be free to breed toward our own goals WITHIN the breed description. Diversity within the breed description is a good thing and I think there is room for all of us. (Although I think that purposefully spreading lethal genes is harmful to a cattle breed's reputation). Earlier in this thread, someone pointed out that one of the biggest dexter show winners is purposefully selecting for bulls that are well ABOVE the maximum height standard, and some of those bulls are heavily used in AI. So there are definitely folks who are purposefully breeding outside the goals of the standard, and there are judges giving awards to animals outside of the standard. If you are purposefully breeding for Kerry-type with LONG legs, then I don't understand how you are keeping cows at 36" to 42".... and bulls at 38" to 44" at 3 years of age. Are all of your Dexters within the height standard?, and if not, are you gradually correcting to eventually get there? I don't understand how you can keep all your cows at 36" to 42" without selecting for naturally shorter legs. Chondro is no help, because it only works 50% of the time. My younger animals turning 3 years old now are mostly all within the standard now, but I still have a lot of work to do. |
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Post by blaine on Jan 10, 2015 0:40:01 GMT
Dexters in the U.S. are such based upon pedigree not based upon a height. The U.S. associations have height guidelines.
Blaine
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2015 1:26:49 GMT
I agree with you otf. What would have happened if that kid fell off and hit that bull rear leg. Ok when I was a kid my
dad use to set us up on our Guernsey cows but he didnt let them go walking around with us up there.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jan 10, 2015 1:32:28 GMT
I don't know what to say after watching those videos, Hans. Yes, nice, mild-tempered bull; but as we all know, bulls can be unpredictable. Cute kid, certainly. But what parent in his right mind would put his 7 yr. old child at risk in this manner? Am I the only one who thinks this is absolutely insane? Gale, I understand your point, but I would expect that the parents have an awful lot of experience with bulls, many of them much larger and more wild than that little Dexter since they seem to be heavily involved in bull riding. Certainly without supervision it would be a bad idea to have the little boy in with the bull, but with adult supervision I don't think the bull has a temperament that poses much danger. That type of bull is the thing that brought us to the Dexter breed, and one of the reasons why we have a lot of success in introducing the breed to our customers. If you think about it, he's got all the protective gear on with the bull, lots of adults around, and the chances that he would be sitting in a car or truck on the way to the rodeo that gets in an accident is probably a greater risk to his safety. |
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Post by cascade on Jan 10, 2015 5:57:35 GMT
Dexters in the U.S. are such based upon pedigree not based upon a height. The U.S. associations have height guidelines. Blaine Here's what it says: "the ideal three year old Dexter bull measures 38 to 44 inches. The ideal three year old Dexter cow measures between 36 to 42 inches" It says that any Dexters outside of this range are less than ideal.... Seem like they should be corrected over time via selective breeding. Seems like show judges should give low scores to any animals outside of this ideal range. Shows are supposed to select the ideal dexters. The good news is that Saltaire Platinum nicely fits that ideal, and so do a great number of his descendants. The nice thing about breeding for true-shorts like Saltaire Platinum is that you can breed for an entire herd of animals that fit the ideal for dexters. A 42" true-short bull like Saltaire Platinum (measured at age 3) bred on a 40" true-short cow herd (measured at age 3) can have 100% of calves easily fit the breed IDEAL/Guideline at 3 years of age. |
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jan 10, 2015 14:25:45 GMT
Kirk, show judges don't have a homogeneous group of Dexters to judge in the mature adult classes (as well as the younger classes). A Dexter at three years of age may be competing with one at 5 or 7 years of age. Wieringa's Paula MD, daughter of our bull Mike, won her first AGM championship in the mature cow division at age three in 2007:  Here she is as Grand Champion in 2011:  As you can see she changed a fair bit during those 4 years (that didn't stop her from winning all that time) But she probably was under the breed guidelines for height at age three for a three year old cow. |
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Post by cascade on Jan 10, 2015 22:39:54 GMT
Kirk, show judges don't have a homogeneous group of Dexters to judge in the mature adult classes (as well as the younger classes). A Dexter at three years of age may be competing with one at 5 or 7 years of age. Wieringa's Paula MD, daughter of our bull Mike, won her first AGM championship in the mature cow division at age three in 2007: Here she is as Grand Champion in 2011: As you can see she changed a fair bit during those 4 years (that didn't stop her from winning all that time) But she probably was under the breed guidelines for height at age three for a three year old cow. The problem is that that a cow like this is a heterozygous hybrid (chondro x non-chondro). They don't breed true and they carry lethal genes. Half of their offspring will be giants.... and 25% will be born dead if you're not careful with the lethal gene. There's not much point in showing breeding stock that can't breed true. Perhaps shows should have a special division for showing lethal-gene hybrids that can't breed true. Sorta like showing steers. PS. Call me when you produce a true-breeding version of the above cow ( I want one). |
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jan 11, 2015 4:07:14 GMT
Dexters in the U.S. are such based upon pedigree not based upon a height. The U.S. associations have height guidelines. Blaine Here's what it says: "the ideal three year old Dexter bull measures 38 to 44 inches. The ideal three year old Dexter cow measures between 36 to 42 inches" It says that any Dexters outside of this range are less than ideal.... Seem like they should be corrected over time via selective breeding. Seems like show judges should give low scores to any animals outside of this ideal range. Shows are supposed to select the ideal dexters.So you agree then, that she is an ideal Dexter as a multiple time winner at the biggest show of all for Dexters in the U.S. |
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Post by cascade on Jan 11, 2015 5:21:05 GMT
Here's what it says: "the ideal three year old Dexter bull measures 38 to 44 inches. The ideal three year old Dexter cow measures between 36 to 42 inches" It says that any Dexters outside of this range are less than ideal.... Seem like they should be corrected over time via selective breeding. Seems like show judges should give low scores to any animals outside of this ideal range. Shows are supposed to select the ideal dexters.So you agree then, that she is an ideal Dexter as a multiple time winner at the biggest show of all for Dexters in the U.S. Yes, I think she is terrific looking, but the problem is that she won't breed true because she's an F1 Hybrid cross (Chondro X non-Chondro) and is not purebred for one of her most important Dexter traits (her height), and her shorter height is due to a genetic bone disease. The whole point of a "pure breed" is that they should be expected to consistently reproduce themselves. There are steer shows for all sorts of hybrid crosses and the point of those shows is simply showmanship... BUT the point of entering animals into breeding classes (cows and bulls), is to judge their potential breeding qualities. It's a BIG problem if the champion breeding-class winner in a pure breed can't consistently reproduce themselves. If I bought semen from a champion bull, I'd expect him to be able to consistently reproduce himself when bred on a similar cow. Chondro's can't do that because they are heterozygous hybrids for a key trait. I would personally disqualify serious genetic disease carriers from breeding classes in shows, but they could have their own non-breeding division, like steers do. |
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Post by lonecowhand on Jan 13, 2015 23:58:31 GMT
Kinda glad you're not a Judge. You need to remember the foundation characteristics of the breed.
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