Buckwheat, the world's smallest bull

[genebo]

The first calf I ever owned was a Dexter/Shorthorn cross I named Li'l Orphan Annie. I got her when she was 2 months old and kept her until I had only her and her calf left that was not a fullblooded Dexter. I had decided by then to devote all of my limited pasture to raising fullblooded Dexters.

Annie had some really nice calves while she was here. One by Windridge Nollaig (Noelly), one by Stillwater's Ryder and two by Brenn of Paradise. I sold both of Brenn and Annie's calves (Brian and Breanna) to a nice lady who ran a farm about 5 miles away. I then sold Annie to a family about 50 miles away, for use as a milk cow.

Brian and Breana made a bull calf. Right from the beginning, you could tell that the calf was different. He had an underbite that made his teeth show. There was a gap between his front teeth. They were like buck teeth, only upside down. The lady that owned him decided to name him Buckwheat after the character in Our Gang films.

Bucky was a very small calf. I guessed his weight to be 20 lbs. Here he is at 10 days old.

Bucky continued to be tiny, hardly growing at all. Our local newspaper carried an article that said that the world's smallest bull was a Canadian bull that stood 29" tall. Here is Bucky at 6 months old.

The lady contacted The Guinness Book of World Records and told them what she had: a bull that measured 22" tall. They sent paperwork to have his height certified at 0ne year old and send it back. He was only 9 months old in this picture.

I went over and measured him on his 1 year birthday. He measured 23" tall. There was no one at home to take a picture of me taking the measurement. Guinness wanted the measurement taken by a licensed veterinarian. The lady held onto the paperwork.

Continued in the next post:

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[genebo]

Bucky was measured at the petting zoo on his 3rd birthday. He was 27" tall.

These are his parents

[Donlin Stud]

Two words: Oh wow

[lonecowhand]

Amazing! Is he still around? Was he viable or did he ever breed?

[genebo]

Bucky never bred. His owner judged him too small to be left with the other cattle, so he and his dam were moved to the pasture with her pigmy goats. Bucky learned to live with the goats and seemed to think he was one of them.

Because of the health problems of the owners, they never filed Bucky's papers with Guinness. The papers went with Bucky when he went to the petting zoo, but they never filed them either. Today, Guinness lists the world's smallest bull as being 29" at one year old (when Bucky was 23"). The world's smallest cow is listed as 27" tall at one year old. Actually that is not exactly correct. Guinness requires the bull or cow to be AT LEAST 1 year old. The current record holders may be older and their measurements may have been taken later.

Bucky is no longer with us. He died when he was 4 years old. He had never prospered at the petting zoo and lost weight. I think he was having trouble getting his share of the food, living with larger animals, and that combined with depression at the loss of his goat buddies and his first owners caused him to die of malnutrition.

It is possible that the combination of Dexter genes with Shorthorn genes not only made him so small, it may have caused him problems that led to his death.

About 8 years ago, someone else posted about an extremely small Dexter calf they had. It weighed 16 pounds at birth and they raised it in a bathtub in the house. I can't find the posting. It had pictures. If anyone else remembers it and can provide a link to the post, I wish they would.

My next door neighbor had a herd of registered Angus that had come from the Kluge estate. In just a few years, his 12 cows produced 3 dwarf Angus calves. Two were the kind that never grew their bodies, but grew their insides, so that about their first birthday, they died. The third calf was normal looking, except for its size. It only weighed about 200 pounds at a year old, but seemed to be healthy and active. A lady bought it from him as a miniature Angus and I never heard of it again.

[cascade]

Interesting, but he's obviously a hybrid chondro-dwarf that could NOT breed true. He has MUCH larger genetics, hidden by the dwarfing effect of the genetic dwarfing disease.

Sounds like he may have had more than just the chondro genetic disease. He may also have had a disease of the digestive system and/or a disease of metabolic function. That would help make him doubly small and die doubly early.

That's the problem with raising a small breed. All sorts of problems and diseases and malnutrition can make them small. So you have to be careful to select ROBUST but truly compact animals, and stay away from the weak or diseased or stunted ones, no matter how cute they are.

Additionally, any calf under 35 pounds is suspect. It's called Low Birth Weight and it's a serious problem (in animals and humans). There's a strong correlation of Low Birth Weight (LBW) and diseased shortened lives.

[lakeportfarms]

Dec 19, 2014 1:28:03 GMT cascade said:

Additionally, any calf under 35 pounds is suspect. It's called Low Birth Weight and it's a serious problem (in animals and humans). There's a strong correlation of Low Birth Weight (LBW) and diseased shortened lives.

Hey Kirk, you mean this bull at 26 lbs. birth weight has a disease?  He's almost 2 years old in this photo, and he had enough spunk to breed a 12 year old non-carrier cow at a year old, who just delivered a little short leg bull calf last night.

I'll tell you what has a short life, it's the 65 lb birth weight bull we had out of a cow who's sire was polled, and who was bred back to her father (he was polled too if you can't figure that out), and who died when we had him pulled about 1/2 way out, nearly killing the dam in the process.  We purchased her bred, but we should have obviously now given her a shot of lutalyse.  The next year with our breeding out of a horned non-carrier bull she had a more reasonable 40 lb. calf.


Obviously your experiences are more in line with the polled ones like I described above.  We know you don't have chondro calves.

[lakeportfarms]

Here he was a week old.

[genebo]

I figured it was only a matter of time before Kirk started to put out his particular brand of hate for our breed in this thread. He's fouled so many other threads with his presence.

Typical of his posts, he has assumed from clear across the continent, with no factual information, that every foul thing he could imagine about a Dexter was true of Buckwheat.

What is hilarious about it is that everything he said about Buckwheat simply points to the potential problems with outcrossing our Dexters with another breed. In this case it was Shorthorn. In the case of polled animals that throw big calves it is Angus. In other cases where temperament is involved it is Jersey. All of those breeds carry genetics that could be devastating to our breed. We owe it to the Dexter breed to protect it from such occurences.

[cascade]

My point is that you just need to be extra careful with Low Birth Weights under 35 pounds... Certainly if they are extra spunky, then they are likely ok for now, although, there is a strong correlation between too Low Birth Weights and early deaths. Let us know 10 years from now, how this boy is doing.

Concerning polled vs. horned, there is ZERO correlation between horn status and birth weight. Those are genetically independent features, so you can breed towards whatever birth-weights you wish (in either polled or horned herds), by selecting wisely. I personally prefer calves in the 45-50 pound range and hitting the ground running and ready to grow fast. If you have a bull that throws too small or too large of calves for you, then cull him and eat him.

Calves below 35 pounds can correlate to health issues and shortened lives, and certainly at over 60 pounds can correlate to birthing problems for the Dexter mother. It's best to avoid both and horn status is irrelevant.

[lonecowhand]

Thanks Genebo, too bad Bucky never got the recognition he deserved (or a mate).

Nice LITTLE bull, Hans. Which one is that?

[cascade]

Dec 19, 2014 4:47:15 GMT genebo said:

 In the case of polled animals that throw big calves it is Angus.

While there are TONS of other breeds in the background of ALL dexters,  Judy says there is no recent record of any Angus or any other specific breed in those lines.    The "angus" story is a myth with ZERO fact.

[lakeportfarms]

Dec 19, 2014 16:55:16 GMT lonecowhand said:

Thanks Genebo, too bad Bucky never got the recognition he deserved (or a mate).

Nice LITTLE bull, Hans. Which one is that?

That's Maverick, out of Mike and Alberta.  He went to his new home a couple of months ago along with a nice little heifer to start off a family on their Dexter adventure.  Like we are with a few other customers, we're waiting for the first of the year so we can transfer them and give the new owners their first full year of ADCA membership.  It doesn't make a lot of sense to sign them up in October, only to have them pay a full year dues a couple of months later!
Mike very much throws his type with the chondro bull calves.  He also does with the chondro girls.  I suppose he did as well with the non-chondro calves, but he threw so few of them (only 15% or so non-carriers) it's a lot harder to say "oh yeah, that's a Mike calf for sure!"

[genebo]

Maverick looks a lot like Mahoney, Seara's tiny little bull from a few years ago. Mahoney draws a lot of attention for his small size and gentle manner.



Oddly enough, the big steer that shows up at the end of the video is Buckwheat's brother that I bought for my freezer. Like Buckwheat, Big'Un is not a Dexter, he's a Dexter/Shorthorn hybrid, so the resulting offspring from parents of the same cross are extremely unpredictable. I wish I had a picture of Bucky and Big'Un together.

A third sibling, Crying Charlie, was halfway between the size of Bucky and Big'Un.

[cascade]

Dec 21, 2014 0:06:40 GMT genebo said:

Oddly enough, the big steer that shows up at the end of the video is Buckwheat's brother that I bought for my freezer.

There's NOTHING odd about it at all.

Buckwheat (Deformed Chondrodysplastic Dwarf) inherited the Chondrodysplasia genetic disease gene, and his larger normal brother didn't.

Buckwheat's skeletal structure was deformed due to the Chondrodysplasia disease gene which interferes with normal growth and causes dwarfism.  His much larger brother obviously had 2 normal genes and normal cartilage and bone, and a healthy normal structure.

 
PS. I love science

[genebo]

What a pompuous, ignorant thing to say. From way over on the west coast, you can do DNA tests on an animal you have never seen or heard tell of before, and make up a story that fits your warped need to put down every kind of cattle that is unlike your form of cattle? You need help.

You have a bad history of doing this. Making a diagnosis of an animal's DNA based upon little or no evidence. You have a lie ready for every occasion. In this post, from 2006, you brag about your new calf crop: "all eight must be non-carriers of chondrodysplasia (dwarfism/bulldog). They are all very long legged". Quite the opposite of what you claim about your herd today. You also claim to have DNA tested homo polled bulls. Six years before the DNA test for polled was available. In your own words:

groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dextercattle2/conversations/messages/8832

You should be ashamed of yourself for making up and applying another of your libelous labels to Buckwheat. That sweet little bull never hurt you. He never spread his genes over the land. Why do you feel this twisted need to hurt his memory?

Please go away and quit making an ass of yourself on my threads.

[cascade]

You showed us the dwarf sire of the dwarf calf in the picture up top.   You also said:  "Right from the beginning, you could tell that the calf was different. He had an underbite that made his teeth show. There was a gap between his front teeth. They were like buck teeth, only upside down. Bucky was a very small calf. I guessed his weight to be 20 lbs. Bucky continued to be tiny, hardly growing at all.  He died when he was 4 years old. He had never prospered at the petting zoo and lost weight."

It's pretty evident what is going on with that malformed dwarf calf's genetics... perhaps you're new to genetics and don't understand how it all works. I can help explain it to you if you want... Just ask.

Concerning polled DNA testing, there has been a homozygous polled test available since 2004 or earlier, limited to certain family lines of cattle. The test was more complex than the one available today, but it was effective. I can post the 2004 result from the DNA lab if you need to see one for yourself. The test result showed "Homozygous Polled" and that bull has had scores of 100% polled calves on horned moms over the last decade. That bull is still VERY healthy and strong approaching 11 years old and is still an excellent breeder (normal dexters outlive the deformed dwarfs by quite bit).

Our first calves nearly a decade ago were TOO long legged in my opinion, and we've had great success over the past decade in bringing the NATURAL size down WITHOUT the Chondrodysplasia Lethal Defect gene, by selecting for NATURALLY shorter legged bulls. I remember sharing some photos of my first calves with Beryl Rutherford (Woodmagic Herd) and she pointed out how their legs were a little too long as is the case in many dexters. She told me that Chondro Dexter breeders simply hide the too-long-legged dexters by cheating and using the Chondrodysplasia lethal defect gene to mask the long legs, instead of correcting them by breeding for naturally shorter legs. I took her advice and selected for naturally shorter (non-chondro) bulls of our own breeding and it's working very well. I'm proud of our progress over time. Thanks for pointing that progress out to me. It's a nice compliment and fun to see those old posts.

It's interesting to see the weights we posted... All eight robust POLLED calves were easily born with ZERO help on first time moms all in the perfect HEALTHY weight range of 43 - 54 pounds and all born within 21 days of each other showing superstar fertility considering we used a 10-11 month old bull on first time heifers.

1. Polled red heifer, pink nose, 43 pounds
2. Polled red heifer, pink nose, 54 pounds
3. Polled black bull, carries red, 53 pounds
4. Polled black heifer, carries red, 51 pounds
5. Polled red heifer, pink nose, 46 pounds
6. Polled red heifer, pink nose, 53 pounds
7. Polled red heifer, pink nose, 50 pounds
8. Polled red bull, pink nose, 51 pounds

[lakeportfarms]

Kirk (Cascade), I'm sure you think it's funny to poke and prod and make fun of our Dexters.  While you may know that you will never sell any of yours to people like Gene or myself, there may be others who stumble upon this site that are in your area, or may even be considering purchasing polled Dexters for various reasons.

You may want to consider the fact that your statements and posts on here are constantly offensive and full of lies, with the most incendiary language possible, and may turn off prospective customers to your farm. As Gene has said, it has happened on other sites with your posts of hairless dogs, etc...who happened to be raised by a couple of members...lol, didn't think there was THAT chance did you???.   Safe to say they're not fans of yours now.

There is no question that we are seriously concerned about the now rapid changes to the original definition of what the Dexter breed has become.  There are many people out there who are preservationists, and not interested in turning the Dexter breed into a miniaturized version of a Red Angus.    If I had NO involvement yet in Dexters, no dog in the fight at all, and were looking for a breeder to trust, it would not be you.  Even if I lived in your area and specifically wanted red polled Dexters, after reading your posts, I would travel to Sandi Thomas, or Chris Ricard, or one of the other breeders with a long history with the Dexter breed.   It is clear that you will say anything and even lie to cover up problems with red polled, so how could anyone trust you to properly describe animals you have listed for sale or your reasons for selling?  Your latest lie, that low birth weight calves mean short lifespan and early death is completely preposterous.  The Dexter is known for calving ease specifically because of low birth weight calving.  Calves sired by our bulls are ALL 20 - 40 pounds with the majority in the 25 - 35 pound range.  These babies are UP AND NURSING WITHIN 5 MINUTES OF BIRTH.  In the normal cattle world (not Kirkville) normal breeders butcher bulls that throw large birth weight calves; bulls with excellent conformation, temperament, and pedigree are sent to the BUTCHER if they throw big calves.  It is not just about this generation of calves, but the future of the entire breed and the genetics you bring into the breed.  

Getting back to the point that this is a public forum, I have no doubt Gene has the support of his wife Babe, as I have the support of my wife Sheril with our support of traditional horned, chondro Dexters.  If somebody is new to Dexters, their breeder should be their mentor and should be chosen wisely and play a large role in where your start your herd.  I notice from the ADCA registry that you also have a partner, Matt, that I presume has a financial stake in your herd.  Though I have no doubt he is also in favor of red and polled in your herd,  I hope you have HIS support of YOUR constant badmouthing of other breeders or prospective owners who may be considering purchasing Dexters of their own who may be running across these posts.

[Deleted]

Well lakeport, I guess if you can't win the argument on the genetic front, you can (and have) resorted to attack on the personal/family level. This forum is nasty, and that always seems to go hand in hand with chondro/legacy proponents online. Just nasty.

Edited to add: The story and pictures of buckwheat has been told before on forums. What a sad little creature, who appears to have inherited a form of dwarfism from both sides. It does not do the Dexter breed any favor to give this poor creature any publicity. I doubt his early death had much to do with location and everything to do with his genetic defects. A serious breeder wants to eliminate genetic defects in their chosen breed, not promote them.

[wvdexters]

Here we have yet another example of Kirk's complete lack of knowledge of the Dexter Breed. He loses credibility with each posting and is hurting himself and his name as a breeder. There was a time a few yrs back when I gave his name to prospective buyers, contacting me looking for polled animals. No longer ..... I stopped a while ago. Sad

[genebo]

Don't let it get lost that Buckwheat is not a Dexter!!! His grandmother was assumed to be the result of a cross breeding between a Shorthorn bull and a Dexter cow, on a farm that had not been worked for 5 years. The elderly owner had been too sick to handle his farm. He raised Shorthorns and kept some Dexters. When he died and the farm passed to a relative, all the cattle were sold to a large company in PA. They sent an 18 wheeler to get the cattle. They got all but one calf in, then gave up and left. No one knows for sure just what genetics the calf carried.

I bought the calf, since it was described as a Dexter/Shorthorn mix. I'd been having trouble finding Dexters for sale. The heifer calf grew into a large cow. She had Shorthorn markings and the body form of a Shorthorn, but was nowhere near as tall as a typical Shorthorn. That led me to believe that she was part Dexter, for Dexters are known for their ability to reduce the size of the calves of full sized cattle they are bred to. I always called her a Dexter/Shorthorn, giving the Dexter name the first position, because I was so fond of them. Her actual genetic composition is lost. I never had her tested for anything but A2 beta casein.

While here, she had several calves, by 3 different bulls. The calves were varied, as was to be expected considering her mixed background. One heifer, Annabelle, looked exactly like her. None of the other ones did. As with all crossbred animals, she didn't breed true. Brian resembled Noelly and Brenn while Breanna didn't resemble Annie or any of the bulls. She was long legged and had very little white. Just a streak under her belly.

Once all of them were sold, Annabelle had a heifer calf that was named Evie by the owners. I made a mistake when listing Breanna as Buckwheat's mother. Actually, both Breanna and Evie calved on the same day. A heifer and a bull. A dog got to the heifer and killed it. The other calf was the bull that was named Buckwheat. Brian was the only bull that could possibly have been the sire. However, the dam could not be identified. Buckwheat nursed from both Breanna and Evie. After a while, the owner decided to take Buckwheat out of the pasture with the big cattle. Breanna was selected to go with him to nurse him.

Quite a mixed background. Parentage all over the place. I know of one Dexter owner who runs a similar operation. He doesn't know and doesn't care who begets who. He sells calves as unregistered Dexters. Then I get a call from the new owners to help them get the calves registered. No way, Jose!

The Guinness people wanted a licensed veterinarian to certify Buckwheat's height measurement. I got a vet to come to Bucky's farm to examine him and measure him. Neither of us brought anything to measure him with! We cut a cardboard template to take home to be measured, but that was not a proper way to do it. The vet said that he'd do it another time. Meanwhile we discussed what might have caused him to be so small and how long a lifeline he might have. The vet offered a guess that he had inherited both Shorthorn dwarfism and Dexter dwarfism. Or that he might have inherited something from his Shorthorn parentage that intensified the dwarfism he got from his Dexter parentage. Or, the opposite.

By the time the vet examined him, his upper palate had caught up with his lower jaw and he had lost his bucktoothed appearance. His underbelly line had straightened and he looked almost like a full sized Shorthorn. Based on that, the vet predicted a long life for Bucky. If things had worked out better and his owners didn't have to fight illness, Bucky would likely still be alive on their farm and drawing visitors.

Breanna died of an obstruction in her throat that wouldn't let her chew and swallow. The vet came to see if he could save her, but couldn't. It would have required serious surgery to remove it. While there, he measured Bucky and signed the Guiness papers. In the turmoil, they never got filed. After Breanna died, her owner opened her throat to see what had caused her death. It was a plain old stick. She had gotten it wedged across her throat and it punctured both side, fixing it in position so she couldn't cough it up or swallow it.

Brian was sold, with Evie, to be the herd bull for a small Angus herd. He is a magnificent looking specimen. Stout as an oak tree. Gentle as a summer breeze. The new owner gave him to his kids to take care of. He and Evie had another calf. It was a bull, but didn't inherit Brian's build. He has a sleeker body and is shorter than Brian. I had him tested for Dexter chondro when I was trying to help sell the calf. He's not a carrier. It didn't matter, because the owner got impat and had him steered before I could find him a home. Brian had a short career with the Dangus beef man, who borrowed him to breed his Angus cows. It didn't work because his calves weren't uniform. Some were good, some weren't. About what you'd expect from breeding with a hybrid bull.

There were two more bulls born there. One from Annie and one from Evie. Both sired by Brian. I bought them and had them steered to fill my freezer. One was named Big'Un and was probably Annie's calf. The other was Crying Charlie, a smaller bull. So named because he cried for his mama when he came here. They were a year old.

All of this makes me very glad to have made the decision to keep only my registered Traditional Dexters. It only took a few years to standardize the lineage so that the calves I get are practically "cookie-cutter" calves. Every one just like the others. Luckily I started my Dexter herd with some really good Dexters gathered from really good lines. Most of the work of eliminating undesirable characteristics had already been done.

I've now been involved with my fullblooded Dexters and quite a few of mixed ancestry. I can compare the experiences. Believe me, the worth of a register with integrity is beyond valuation. It is priceless. I can make plans and even sell the next calf ahead of time, relying upon it to be of the same quality as the parents. All because of the years of standardization behind them. I'm talking about a hundred years of selection. Most of the bad stuff is gone.

I hope that you come to the same conclusion I did and join in the effort to preserve our breed. Change is inevitable, given human nature. It is up to the few of us to preserve the genetics that the experimenters can come back to when they make a mistake. Somebody has to keep the seed stock.

Bucky's story reinforces this.

[cascade]

As I said above: "Calves below 35 pounds can correlate to health issues and shortened lives, and certainly at over 60 pounds can correlate to birthing problems for the Dexter mother. It's best to avoid both and horn status is irrelevant."

Sure, there are some healthy 60-plus pounders and healthy 35-minus pounders, but as you go further, and further above and below those limits, the chance of problems greatly increases.

I can provide a LONG list of 40-55 pound calves that live healthy lives to age 18 or more (and those 18 year olds have a history of very healthy calves)

I've never seen a long list of 20-29 pound calves, that live to a healthy age of 18 or more and having lots of offspring. Many seem to die early, and certainly too-large 65 pound dexter calves can have birthing problems too and die in birth (and kill the young mom too). Too small and too large can BOTH be problematic.

In the general world of cattle in the 1970's and 1980's folks kept breeding for larger and larger cattle, and larger and larger calves, and that led to birthing problems, so then folks started selecting for lower birth weights to solve the problem.... But that doesn't mean that you just keep selecting for lower and lower and lower and lower birth-weights, because the lowest birth-weights are just as problematic as the higher birth weights. The lowest birth weights have a strong correlation to genetic diseases, and metabolic diseases, and malnutrition and growth problems and early deaths.

The ideal solution is to select for ideal birth-weights and that's probably in the 40-50 or 35-55 pound range for dexters. Big enough to be robust and healthy and fast-growing and disease-free, but small enough to be free from calving difficulty.



PS. If anyone wants to challenge ANY specific facts or opinions that I've provided, please list the SPECIFIC quote from me (one at a time) and I'll be happy to attempt to provide further evidence.

[genebo]

The "facts" you cite above for weight apply only to larger breed cattle than our glorious little Dexters. If that's what you want to raise, it's Ok with me, but for Pete's sake, don't call them Dexters.

Go start your own thread and post your LONG list of overweight calves that have lived to a ripe old age. Don't forget to provide the names of the cattle, their breed, their owner and how you got their birth weight. If you don't, people will assume you are lying again, making up stuff as you go along.

Make a complete list of their birth weights. It will be interesting to refer back in coming years to see how they change.

I see by the ADCA on-line pedigree that the oldest animal you own is 10 years old. Since none of these animals that have lived to 18 or more are yours, don't forget to tell us who the owner is of these animals you include in your list, and which ones gave you permission to use them in your list. I'd like to see contact info for the owners so I could ask them about their cattle's birth weight as well.

All of the cattle listed as belonging to you on the ADCA on-line pedigree have Wee Gaelic Ms Fermoy in their pedigree. Of course, yours also have one or more of the English import bulls with large breed blood in their ancestry. Your breedings involving Ms Fermoy and Platinum or Ms Fermoy and Lucifer, you say throw large calves. This same cow, when bred to a Legacy bull, produced calves of low birth weight. How can you not see the connection between the large breed genetics and large calves?

If you wish to continue your Dexter bashing, please move it to another thread. Save this one for those who love the traditional Dexters. Better yet, take it to the discussion group that you came from. If we want to read anything you write, we can come there to read it.

[cascade]

Our first cows primarily came from a terrific horned non-chondro dexter herd that is famous for having long-lived 20+ year old cows, some having 20+ calves in a lifetime. Their birth weights are primarily in the 40-50 pound range.

Here are some average calf weights for larger breeds (half the calves are even larger than this)

Holstein ~ 89 pounds

Guernsey ~ 71 pounds

Ayrshire ~ 72 pounds

Brown Swiss ~ 100 pounds

Dairy Shorthorn ~ 73 pounds

Angus - 75 pounds

A good birth-weight range for long-lived dexters is 40-50 pounds a little more or less is ok. That's a LOT smaller than the other breeds, but certainly not so tiny as to lead to health problems and early deaths like the poor little 20 pound deformed dwarf discussed up top.

There is NO record of Saltaire Platinum having "large breeds" in his recent ancestry. That's a myth. If you disagree with me, then provide the names of the "large breeds" and the exact percentages involved and list the source.

The 12 year old 44" 75% Lucifer bull, Finerty, listed in the AI catalog throws 46 pound calves on average. That's perfect, and he's a pretty perfect, very friendly bull, that throws LONG LIVED cattle.

PS. Remember, ALL dexters including "legacy" dexters have the larger KERRY breed and many other larger breeds in their more distant backgrounds.

[lonecowhand]

Hey, bs-er, if you no like, Go Away. That's what many have been trying to tell cascade.(and only because he can not self- moderate.) You have made no attempt to add anything to any discussion but criticism.

Unfortunately, Judy has set this forum up with unmoderated freedom because that's what she stands for. Not so much for me.
I know that some folks should not be allowed freedom, because they have no ability to see that the right to their freedom ends when it interferes with mine, or others.

That means that if we want to discuss the sharing of an interesting story like Bucky's, we can do it without questioning the motivation. It was accidental, but it's interesting. I have often wondered just how small a ruminant can get, and that makes his story of interest to me. You see? if I'm not interested, I can look on a more germaine (to me) thread. No reason to make snippy comments when pleasant discourse is appropriate.

Cascade may have been advised or paid to interrupt this pleasant discourse, and the natives are restless.
In the spirit of the season, and Goodwill to Men, I prefer to dismiss it as afflicted with coprolalia.

[jamshundred]

 Everyone has a certain style with their writing, usually little things of which they are not even aware.  I am a little surprised to discover that one of the mean girls who has dogged me for years on the Dexter forums as well as FB whom I grudgingly respected as a consistent adversary. . .  dropped a few notches in my assessment with the show of cowardly anonymity here.  "Unfortunately". ( wink!) 

Judy

[lakeportfarms]

Lonecowhand and WVDexters, thank you! BSwatcher, I was merely pointing out that Cascade (Kirk) has perfected his chondro bashing into his own art form of obsessive/compulsive online behavior. And even reasonable people that may be interested in what he has to offer are going to start to wonder, especially when he has no carriers and is never threatened with having it enter his herd. I certainly would! As WVDexters points out, she isn't going to refer anybody to him, and neither would I. How does the "unnamed" person that Kirk shares a major investment with feel about this? (How exactly do you propose I address this?) For all I care Kirk can promote his chondro free herd to his customers all he wants provided he does not constantly feed the urge to come online here and start tearing us down. Like it or not a lot of people are attracted to the dwarf Dexter, especially those new to cattle. Don't forget that those of us with dwarf Dexters also have, raise, and sell long legged Dexters too. I have sold more than a few dwarf bulls, and these people will at some point be in the market for heifers that are non-carriers after all, and perhaps not from me but from you.

As far as the board being "nasty", none of us feels the need to butt into every post with our own special kind of hate as some of you do. Yes, Bucky's story has been told elsewhere, and many of us enjoy hearing about it again. Don't you think Kirk's story has been told enough as well, or are the rules different and we're going to be subjected to something we are tired of hearing over and over and over again? Leave us to enjoy our Dexters as we see fit to raise and breed them.

[genebo]

Hans,

Those who have never experienced it cannot know the joy of keeping the tiny little dwarf Dexters. Some people say, "They're so cute!" Others say, I feel so comfortable with them." I say that their personality suits me the best.

However, I also have my share of non-dwarf Dexters. The best Dexter cow that ever breathed lived here and made great calves. She was a long leg.

At nightfall, every night, I have to go into the pasture to gather my ducks and guineas and chickens into the henhouse and lock them up. It may be pitch black and raining, it still has to be done. Since I broke my leg I have to send my little bride to do this. Thank goodness for the mellow temperament and wonderful personalities of the Dexters. There is never a doubt that we are safe with them.

Of all the traits that Bucky inherited from his mixed ancestry, the Dexter demeanor stands out second to his size. When he was a year old, I picked him up so the vet could examine his underside. He didn't even wiggle or squirm. He was as placid as Brenn. So was his daddy, Brian.

In most cases, no matter where they came from, new Dexters that come here learn the same gentle rules of behavior. I once bought a calf that was as wild as spring onions. She was terrified of me and the trailer and my Dexters. I held her in the corral for days, calming her down enough to let her out with the herd. I promised myself that if she didn't shape up, i would shoot her. It wasn't necessary. It took a while, but she eventually became just another sweet Dexter in the herd. She left here because she tested to be A1/A2, and didn't fit with my herd plan. She went to be a child's pet. When the family moved and she came back here, she brought the calf that she had been carrying when she left. A sweet heifer that took to me right away.

That is what I like so much about our breed. That is sometimes what people with Jerseys want when they buy semen from me. One lady told me she was going to AI her Jersey milk cow and hope for a heifer calf. If she got one, she was going to eat that hard headed jersey cow and enjoy every bite.

A beef breeder was showing off his cattle to me. Big cows. In our discussion he mentioned that he was having trouble, having to pull too many calves. I suggested he try some Dexter semen on his heifers, to condition them to have a bigger calf later. About that time, one of his cows butted the fence right where we were standing. I told him that the calves he got from AI'ing with a Dexter would be a lot less mean. He told me that he didn't want them any less mean. He wanted them to stand up for themselves no matter where they went. When they were paraded at the livestock market he got the best prices when they were feisty. Subject closed. We lived on different planets.

[Deleted]

"When he was a year old, I picked him up so the vet could examine his underside."

I am doing good if I can pickup a month old squirming calf.

[Donlin Stud]

Dec 21, 2014 21:22:31 GMT cascade said:

As I said above: "Calves below 35 pounds can correlate to health issues and shortened lives, and certainly at over 60 pounds can correlate to birthing problems for the Dexter mother. It's best to avoid both and horn status is irrelevant."

The ideal solution is to select for ideal birth-weights and that's probably in the 40-50 or 35-55 pound range for dexters.

Hi Cascade
Our Dexter calves range between 12 to barely 17 kilos with their weights taken sometime in the first three – four days. (26 – 37.5 pounds).

All our Dexters are maintained at a Body Condition Score of no less than 6 at any time throughout the year and our Dexter calves run around healthy and full of energy.