Photos Male offspring of Saltaire Platinum

[jamshundred]

Kirk keeps posting photos of Saltaire Platinum, saying he was 42" at 3yo ( meaning he probably would have died around 47-50 inches) and he is a stellar breeding bull.  So I grew curious.  I went looking for photos of his male offspring to see if he "threw himself" and the size of his male offspring  It was interesting to me how few photos were ever exhibited of his offspring.  I find only the female offspring of Ms. Fermoy to be consistent in appearance and even size.

I made a small collage, but I missed one bull, Llanfair's Philbert.  My least favorite anyway and he does not have much in the way of offspring,  so if you wish to look them up yourself the identity of the bulls, clockwise begin with Magnetic Harmony Seamus, Llanfair's Polgaron, Llanfair's Cinnabar, Hillside Dynamo SP5, Glenn Land Mr. Redfire, Llanfair's Finnagin and the AI bull, Salty Rambler IV.

So, for the sake of discussion, here are the photos on ADCA of Saltaire Platinum sons and one that I found through AI records.  


Judy

[cascade]

Bulls typically only SLOWLY grow an inch or two after maturing at age 3. 

Here's a 50% Saltaire Platinum AI Bull at 44 inches at age 5  (non-chondro).




Meanwhile, The four largest bulls in the AI catalog at 48"+ are all traditional horned dexters with NO Saltaire Platinum
Two of those 48"+ traditional horned bulls were measured at 3 and 4 years (6 inches taller than Saltaire Platinum at the same age)
The other two of those 48"+ traditional horned bulls do not say how old they were at the time of measure





If you (WRONGLY) believe that bulls can grow another 8" after age three, then those 48" traditional horned bulls measured at age 3, would be 56 inches tall at an older age, but since they likely only grew another 2 inches, that would put those traditional horned bulls at 50 inches.

NONE of the top 4 tallest AI bulls are Saltaire Platinum descendants.

70% of the shortest non-chondro bulls in the AI catalog are Saltaire Platinum descendants. 

 

[jamshundred]

Kirk,

If you think bulls are "mature" at age THREE, then you are NOT breeding Dexter genetics.  Usually about age three the Dexter bull is just coming out of his "ugly stage".  More so non-dwarf than the dwarf bulls which will have their bull appearance a little bit earlier than a non-dwarf.   Between age THREE and FIVE the Dexter bull goes through major masculine changes and begins to take on the mature appearance of a bull, along with a height growth of several inches and depending on the blood line . .  .. . MORE than several.

Do you suppose there was any "funny stuff" going on in the pedigrees of those you think too big?  

Do you know the mature height of Saltaire Platinum?   If not. .   .  why not?   He is the linebred basis of your herd.   Why aren't you privy to all that information?

Did you know that I was told Lucifer was 54" at the time of his death?

Why aren't breeders required to measure bulls at a mature age ( AI bulls) and put the correct information on record?   Even if not required. .   .why don't they do it voluntarily?    It is unfair to have a bull give a correct adult height at 6-8 years of age and be listed with bulls whose correct height is not updated.   And don't for a minute try to tell me again that bulls don't grow from three to five. 

Oh wait!  You distracted me.   So . .  .. let's hear it for those photos and whether your rhetoric matches reality.   Every time you get pinned you lead off in a new direction.

Judy

[cascade]

I agree that we have a size problem sprinkled throughout the Dexter gene pool, but the chondro gene just hides those too tall genetics so it's just a hindrance and not a help. I've seen some GIANT traditional horned bulls winning shows recently that made me gasp. We've had a few calves turn out pretty big in the past too, but I consider them to be a fault to be corrected, and NOT show-worthy.   We've made excellent progress in the past 5 years toward controlling our heights.

I highly doubt that rumor of Lucifer being 54" in old age because some of his heavily linebred offspring have been very compact

This AMAZING and VERY FRIENDLY Son of Lucifer is HEAVILY linebred on Lucifer... 44 inches at 12 years old
This bull's sire is Lucifer, and both of his dam's grandfathers are also Lucifer,  so he is 75% Lucifer of Knotting.

AI Bull
Glencara Finerty
ADCA# 9020
44" hip height @ 12 years old
Average birthweight is 46#'s
Excellent Disposition



The dexter gene pool is very diverse and breeders haven't done a good job of eliminating the too tall genetics in the past (mostly because it was easy to hide those tall genetics using the chondro dwarfing gene).

I'd like to see ALL AI bulls heights at age 3, 5, and 7 (all listed separately)
But if all AI bulls were at least measured consistently at age 3, then at least you have a consistent comparison.

There is a 50% Saltaire Platinum (linebred) bull in the AI catalog, listed at age 5 as 44 inches.

Bulls that are heavily linebred, typically throw calves that are much like themselves, but bulls that are not heavily linebred can throw more diverse sized calves, especially if they are bred on a wide range of diverse cows. I wouldn't expect to see Saltaire Platinum always throw calves his same shorter size, but certainly a good number of his linebred descendants were definitely shorter.

[hollyrockranch]

Hi Judy, I am cereus why you dislike Llanfair's Philbert the most, is there something we should know about him in particular?

[genebo]

Kirk,

You still fail to identify the animals that you post and specify the source of your "facts" and figures. Tell us all exactly who took Platinum's measurement that you base your whole premise on, so that that person can be asked to verify or deny your claims.

You don't expect any of us to believe that you personally measured Platinum, do you? Did you ever even lay eyes upon him? Did you ever take a picture of him? Are you making it all up as you go? It's odd that in years past your posts don't pecify a height for Platinum, and others spoke of him as being a large bull. The height you keep throwing out just popped up since you came to this forum. If I remember right, it was after Judy challenged you to find any other pictures of Platinum besides the one you kept posting. Did you do an internet search and find something someone else had posted? Someone equally uninformed?

Why do you keep trying to defend the choice you made, to raise cattle that are not fullbloods of the breed in which they are registered? Wouldn't it be a lot better for you and all of us if you simply changed your plan and restocked with fullblooded Dexters? You wouldn't have to make up anything. The truth is good enough.

You won't even have to struggle to find some fullblooded Dexters. The Legacy site lists 104 Legacy qualified Dexters and 554 Traditional Dexters.

There are more registered with the PDCA and ADCA, but you'll have to sort them out yourself by researching their pedigrees.

[cascade]

Photo's of the 42" Saltaire Platinum come from the original Authorized AI Listings
They referred to him as "Longlegged type" back then, to denote that he didn't have the lethal chondro gene (It was the dark-ages, before the chondro-lethal-gene was identified).     But he certainly doesn't have long legs.   They're pretty short.  Today, he'd simply be called "non-chondro"  and "true-short".








Saltaire Platinum, 42" at 3 years of age. (well within the breed guideline), PHA free, and Chondro-free

You can see his naturally shorter legs (non-chondro of Course)

He's half Woodmagic Breeding (Woodmagic is world-famous for eliminating the chondro-gene, and breeding for sweet, true-short dexters)

All dexters have scores of non-dexters in their backgrounds...  There's no such thing as full blood dexters.  But there is such a thing as purebred dexters.   Purebred dexters are dexters accepted by the registries as purebred.  Saltaire Platinum is accepted as purebred.   There is no record of any other specific breed in his background, but like ALL Dexters, his distant ancestors originally come from non-dexters.

[genebo]

There is no listing of Platinum as an AI bull on either of the two Dexter Association web sites.

Where did you get the Picture of the listing that you keep posting? Was it from Carol Davidson, his original importer?

Who provided the statistics on the listing? Are they trustworthy?

Who edited the poster to update it to today's standards? How many times was it edited?

The guidelines were amended to include the three year time for measurements and using hip height for measurement after 2004. Platinum was three years old in 1993. At that time, height measurements were taken at the shoulders and there was no suggestion to take the measurement at three years old. Any measurements taken of Platinum would likely be taken at another age. Maybe much younger. Since his horned gene(s) were damaged, their are no horns in his photo to indicate his possible age. Most likely, after the suggested breed standards for height were revised and Platinum was in his middle teens, someone filled in the numbers you see for his height and age of measurement.

The same poster lists him with an ADCA registration number of 6504P, with the P indicating polled. That, too, is a fairly recent modification implemented on the ADCA on-line pedigree by Chuck Daggett. This indicates that the poster you show was either recently created or recently modified.

The poster lists Platinum as being heterozygous for polled. He was polled. There was no test to determine whether he was heterozygous or homozygous polled until about a year ago. The only indicator that he was heterozygous polled would come when a calf he sired had horns. That didn't occur until Platinum was 4 years old. Meaning that his status dates the poster as being created or edited after then.

The poster you rely on lists Platinum's color as being black with recessive red. Again, there was not a color test available for Dexters until Platinum was advanced in years. His color status was discovered when he produced his first red calf, in 1995, with Ms Fermoy as the dam. He had previously produced a black calf with Ms Fermoy, who is E+/E+ for red. That is another indication that the poster you rely on for your information was either created or edited well along in Platinum's lifetime.

The NOTE that is appended to the bottom of the poster states that his pedigree is accepted as accurate by the DCS. This is the basis for a lot of arguments that his pedigree is accurate. However, it only indicates that a single person, the registrar, was convinced or coerced to accept his application. The DCS is not the organization you would want to reference to prove a bull's pedigree as accurate in the United States. Over there they readily accepted registration applications for cattle that were less than pure. It was an acceptable thing to do over there. Here, it was absolutely forbidden. The Association rules-writers were always busy writing and re-writing rules to prevent it from happening or to remedy it when it did.

When the inconsistencies in Platinum's registration became a hot topic among the membership, the ADCA composed and posted prominently the disclaimere "accepted for registration according to the rules" to avoid blame for registering him. So, the frequent argument that he was accepted by the associations, so that proves he's pure is patently not true. Even in England, where it was OK to upgrade cross-bred animals to purebred Dexters, the poster-writer used hedging language about his pedigree, because it has been documented that he didn't even qualify for registration by their lax rules.

I would love to hear from anyone who has actually laid eyes on Platinum and could attest to the measurement that they took of his height when he was 3 years old. I don't know of such a person, and I'll bet that you don't either. The evidence is too strong against such a thing ever happening.

[cascade]

Both of this AI bull's grandsires were the 42" true-short Saltaire Platinum
This bull was about 42" at 3 years of age, and he was 44" at 5 years of age
He was one of the first Homozygous Polled Red Dexter Bulls on the planet.

No long legs here, and NONE of those nasty LETHAL GENES (NO PHA and NO Chondro)

Since BOTH of this bull's grandfathers were the 42" Saltaire Platinum, it makes sense that he inherited his shorter size from Saltaire Platinum.





This next bull has Saltaire Platinum on his pedigree many times.
He's friendly as a puppy. 
His VERY friendly true-short polled mother has an excellent udder 
He was 42" at 3 years of age
He throws lots of true-short dexters


Here's a 4 year old cow with the 42" Saltaire Platinum on her pedigree 11 times


Here's a 4 year old bull with the 42" Saltaire Platinum on his pedigree 11 times
Friendly as a puppy

The Vast MAJORITY of true-short AI bulls descend from Saltaire Platinum.



Meanwhile, for comparison
Here's a nice 4 year old Traditional Horned Dexter Bull with ZERO Saltaire Platinum on the Pedigree

[genebo]

You are being sexist in your postings. Give Wee Gaelic Ms. Fermoy credit for the small size and gentle nature that her Dexter ancestors passed on to her.

She then passed on these fine qualities to her offspring.

Ms. Fermoy was a Legacy qualified Dexter, with roots extending into the past history of US Dexters when she was used as an AI platform for introducing polledness to America. What discordant backgrounds!

It is offensive that she should be so used, and then to have you ascribe her valuable assets to the sire of her unfortunate offspring.

We used to be able to search the registered descendants of Ms. Fermoy on the ADCA on-line pedigree. She is probably the most influential cow in the short history of the Modern cattle. It wasn't until she was NINETEEN years old that she ever had a fullblooded calf sired by a Legacy bull. ALL of her earlier offspring were by Platinum, his son, or Lucifer's grandson.

Next time you want to assign credit for any good trait in the descendants to Platinum, remember that Ms. Fermoy is there. When you want to ascribe the traits of long life and good health to Platinum's descendants, remember Ms. Fermoy, who provided these traits and outlived Platinum by how many years?

"Cherchez la femme!" Alexander Dumas