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Post by cascade on Dec 18, 2014 20:48:09 GMT
Every Dexter (including "Legacy" and "Traditional" Dexters) have tons of "UPGRADES" in their backgrounds. Every Dexter alive today has ancestors that were Kerry Cattle and other mixed breeds in recent history.
There is NO such thing as a truly "pure" Dexter.... but there are PUREBRED Dexters. Purebred Dexters are ANY Dexters that have been subjected to a pure-breeding process and accepted into a Dexter Registry as purebred, based the decision of the registry at time of registration, end of story.
The original Dexters came from Kerry Cattle and many other mixed breeds of cattle in the 1800's. The original "Dexters" were simply selected for their short size. Some were true shorts, and some had the genetic dwarfing disease called chondrodysplasia. The original dexters were "Upgraded" from mostly Kerry Cattle mixes. The first generation of "Dexters" had 100% NON-dexter parentage on all sides for the entire pedigree.
Even the most "Legacy" and "Traditional" of Dexters were created via a grading process. They started with NON-Dexters, and generation after generation selected for traits they considered to be Dexter, and the Registry accepted them as "Dexters"
So ALL Dexters including "Legacy" and "Traditional" dexters have tons of "Impurities" in their backgrounds, but the good news is that it's easy to purify the traits of Dexters by selecting for ideal Dexter traits, generation after generation.
KEY Traits:
Compact
FRIENDLY
Trouble Free
Dual Purpose
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Post by lonecowhand on Dec 18, 2014 22:28:01 GMT
WOW. So it's news to you that Dexters were selected from Kerries?
Just some more news, then,. They were selected by a Mr. Dexter, who was employed to gather up some of those little cows.
They weren't upgraded from Kerries, they WERE short Kerries. Black. Short. Thrifty. Horned.
Upgrades means something was bred to them to improve them
Please note Judy's Reminder above for behaviour on this board: With privilege comes responsibility.
Your posts are becoming the digital equivalent of tagging. So watch the statement-like headers on your threads, if it's lying, deliberately misleading, you can be booted.
Here's an analogy to your Registry Accepted argument; Lets say someone accepts a counterfeit $100 dollar bill, is it now money because it was mistakenly accepted?
NO. is the answer. No ifs, No ands, No buts.
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Post by cascade on Dec 18, 2014 23:20:09 GMT
Upgrading (in cattle breeding terms) has NOTHING to do with improvement.
Upgrading = Converting from one breed to another breed.
Dexters were converted (upgraded) from Kerry-mixed-breed Cattle to Dexters via a trait selection process.
ALL Dexters have tons of other breeds' genetics in them, but ongoing selection for Dexter traits is the ONLY thing that keeps Dexters looking and acting like Dexters.
Dexters are CLEARLY an upgraded breed and if you could go back far enough, you will find upgrading (conversion from another breed) in the background of EVERY Dexter.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 1:12:37 GMT
once again wrong. upgrading is using a different breed and then repeatedly breeding back to desired breed in hopes to get back as close as you can to the original.
You keep saying it does not matter because you are breeding to dexter standards. Funny all the old dexter pictures you will find are black and horned and yes a lot of chondro. I dont see you posting pictures of those in your herd. So it would seem you are not breeding to dexter standards.
Dexters were not a result of a crossbreeding program but rather selected from the Kerry breed.
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Post by cascade on Dec 19, 2014 7:09:46 GMT
Dexters started out as Crosses... A mix of Kerry and other cattle.
Dexters were converted from Kerry-crosses, by visual selection and ongoing breeding.
If resulting calves were short in stature (some chondro, some true-short), then they called it a Dexter.
The point is that today's legacy and traditional dexters are swimming in genes from non-dexters. Real "Purity" is a myth... BUT all Dexters accepted as purebred into the registry, ARE PUREBRED by definition.
Purebred = A registry has blessed the animal as being dexter enough to be called a purebred dexter.
The Dexter Standards say:
Black, Dun, Red
Horns, Polled, or Dehorned
Maximum Bull Height = 44" at 3 years.
Minimum Bull Height = 38" at 3 years.
That's what I'm selecting for (but no cruel dehorning for my calves).
The description also says:
"They were bred by small land holders and roamed about the shelter-less mountainous districts in an almost wild state of nature"
"They thrive in hot as well as cold climates and do well outdoors year round, needing only a windbreak, shelter and fresh water. Fertility is high and calves are dropped in the field without difficulty. They are dual purpose, being raised for both milk and meat."
I'm selecting for all that too. My herd is up on the hill in some terrible cold wet weather tonight. The only shelter they have is some trees. They'll drop their calves out there in the awful weather, in a couple of months from now.
PS. I hope none of you have any Dexter bulls shorter than 38" at 3 years of age, because they are too short to be a Dexter according to the standard.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Dec 19, 2014 12:24:03 GMT
Kirk, did you know that the ADCA recommends that the seller handles the registration and transfer of Dexters that you sell? Why don't you do that? Too bad he's lying down, we could see for ourselves if your heights are really coming down. But he looks like an awfully big boy to me compared to some of our similar age bulls, including the non carriers. kpr.craigslist.org/grd/4811250802.html |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 15:02:07 GMT
kirk, there is no reason you need to dehorn any. If you choose to dehorn calves that is your choice but you keep indicateing that it is neceasary and it is not. there are plenty of us who do not dehorn.
I realize that all 3 colors and polled are acceptable for registration. I have dun in my herd but I am not breeding to produce dun actually with that I had a higher percent of black calves over dun. but I am not going to cull a good animal because it is dun.
Your words " ongoing selection for Dexter traits is the ONLY thing that keeps Dexters looking and acting like Dexters"
Look at the old pictures they are black, horned and chondro. So wich one of these traits is that you are breeding for to keep your dexters looking like dexters?
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Post by cascade on Dec 19, 2014 17:10:41 GMT
Kirk, did you know that the ADCA recommends that the seller handles the registration and transfer of Dexters that you sell? Why don't you do that? Too bad he's lying down, we could see for ourselves if your heights are really coming down. But he looks like an awfully big boy to me compared to some of our similar age bulls, including the non carriers. I sold him long ago as an UNREGISTERED bull to be used by an UNREGISTERED non-dexter herd. They wanted him to improve the quality and bring down the height of their too large cattle, and they wanted him to introduce his exceptional friendliness to their wild herd. That buyer eventually sold him to someone else, who used him for a year or two and then sold him again. We have our farm name on their tags and the newest owner contacted me to ask if he was registrable. They showed me some photos and explained that he is friendly as a puppy and I said that I would be willing to register him after they send me tail hairs for parentage verification. His sire, Bracken, was 42" at 3 years of age... well within the standard for Dexters and a couple of inches shorter than his own sire and grandsires. I believe the bull laying down in the advertisement is just under 44" at 4 years of age - well within the standard of 44" at 3 years. This is Bracken (non-chondro) 42" at 3 years... He is as friendly as a puppy. This is 100% grass feeding with no supplements. I do like them beefy. He was pretty beefy even at 18 months. Shorter legged dexters of good breeding (true-short, non-chondro) can put on beef and fat EARLIER than longer legged ones. Bracken is on another farm now, but we have one of his sons as our primary bull now.  It's a very hard task to select for so many traits all at the same time.... We have more consistency now than than we had years ago. But we still have plenty of work to do. Here's Bracken's Son, our latest key bull. Homozygous Polled, A2/A2, and the most well behaved, FRIENDLY bull ever. I could slip a rope-halter on him while he's chasing girls and lead him away (reluctantly). He was 43" at 3 years old, well within the height standards for dexters which is 38" to 44" at 3 years of age.  |
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Post by cascade on Dec 19, 2014 17:35:00 GMT
kirk, there is no reason you need to dehorn any. If you choose to dehorn calves that is your choice but you keep indicateing that it is neceasary and it is not. there are plenty of us who do not dehorn. I realize that all 3 colors and polled are acceptable for registration. I have dun in my herd but I am not breeding to produce dun actually with that I had a higher percent of black calves over dun. but I am not going to cull a good animal because it is dun. Your words " ongoing selection for Dexter traits is the ONLY thing that keeps Dexters looking and acting like Dexters" Look at the old pictures they are black, horned and chondro. So wich one of these traits is that you are breeding for to keep your dexters looking like dexters? I have NOT "indicated" that dehorning is necessary. In fact, I'm 100% OPPOSED to dehorning (since going through the experience over 10 years ago). I actually like the look of horns. I think people who have genetically horned cattle should do one of two things... either keep the horns on, or switch to a homozygous polled bull and cease having horned caves. Some places are banning the often cruel practice of de-horning. I am very happy that you like horns and I fully support those who want to keep horned dexters. They're BEAUTIFUL, especially the horned bulls. We have a FRIENDLY herd of 40-50 dexters and I work VERY closely with them. I don't mind a pair of horns here and there, but I find that I have to be more careful around horned dexters to keep from being accidentally bumped by them. OUCH, it hurts. Our current primary bull is homozygous polled. Again, I'm selecting for the Written Dexter Standards (and I think you are too, by the looks of your nice Horned Dun in your avatar) The Dexter Standards say: Black, Dun, Red Horns, Polled, or Dehorned Maximum Bull Height = 44" at 3 years. Minimum Bull Height = 38" at 3 years. That's what I'm selecting for (but no cruel dehorning for my calves). We have blacks and red, but no dun. We have one horned cow. Every bull we've used has been 44" or under at 3 years. The description also says: "They were bred by small land holders and roamed about the shelter-less mountainous districts in an almost wild state of nature" "They thrive in hot as well as cold climates and do well outdoors year round, needing only a windbreak, shelter and fresh water. Fertility is high and calves are dropped in the field without difficulty. They are dual purpose, being raised for both milk and meat." I'm selecting for all that too. My herd is up on the hill in some terrible cold wet weather. The only shelter they have is some trees. They'll drop their robust calves out there in the awful weather with no help, in a couple of months from now. |
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