True-Breeding True Short Dexters With Horns

[cascade]

 I'm a fan of genetically healthy, truly short (non-chondro), true-breeding dexters and I'm VERY happy that some breeders are breeding for horns.  I love looking at the pictures.



The nice thing about these NORMAL true shorts is that you can have an entire problem-free herd of animals just like the one in the picture with the NORMAL true-short cows being an inch or two shorter than the NORMAL true-short bull and with very consistent calves all being truly short.  You can keep a bull like this with very similar cows in a natural herd (including with his own daughters and granddaughters) and not worry about lethal genes and dead calves.

Here are two more of them in the AI Catalog.

39 inches, true short (non-chondro), and horned


39.5 inches, true short (non-chondro), and horned


If I was breeding for horned, shorter, dexters, I'd use bulls like these so my entire herd could look just like them.   

The Dexter Standard says bulls should be no shorter than 38" at 3 years of age, so these bulls are about as short as you can get without going below the standard.

Anyone else have some pictures of truly short (non-chondro), horned dexters?   How tall are they?

[wvdexters]

OK Kirk, I'll try to take a stab at this one.

This is a subject that I have been giving a great deal of thought to these past few weeks. Not these bulls in particular, they've been discussed at length both here on this forum and on the other. All are fine bulls. In fact, two of the three, I would probably consider using if their Pedigrees could meet my standards. I would have to do research; temperament, conformation, talk to people personally familiar with them, and of course see more pictures. Preferably photos with people in them for context.  Really see the whole pkg.

The subject I am referring to is "True Short".  ??

Dexter cattle come in two body types: short legged and long legged.  (Taken from the ADCA Website "About Dexter Cattle" section.)

Short legged Dexters are also known as:  dwarfs, chondro carriers, shorties ....

Long legged Dexters are also known as:  non-dwarfs, chondro non-carriers, long legs ....

Nowhere is there any mention of a "true short" type.  So where does this term come from and what exactly does it mean?? 

You see, there are a number of Dexter breeders, of which I am one, who have been trying to find "common ground" between the modern and the traditional camps.  Hoping to bring the two sides together, believing it best for everyone involved as well as for the Dexter Breed itself.  A house divided against itself cannot stand.  It will fall.

But, lately I'm wondering, if we have given up too much; let too many things slide.   In the rush to accommodate and keep people happy are we allowing too much to go unanswered??

I'm believing we are. 

TRUE SHORT ??  There is no such thing.  It is a made up/ non-sense word.  The animals you are referring to here are simply small long legs.  Nothing new.  Like I've told you many times before I have them standing in my field right now.  Lovely animals.  In fact I chose a small long leg as an AI sire for one of my girls this past year and was thrilled with the result.  You missed him in your photos; Armstrong of Paradise. 

You have gone on so many times about the need for accuracy and scientific terms, often times belittling and mocking those who use the familiar terms such as "Shorties and Long legs" both of which are historically correct.  While you choose to use "made up" terms.  ??

Kirk, I honestly believe that there is a much bigger picture here that you aren't sharing.  Why not just be honest and call small long legs just that or maybe small non-dwarfs?   Why the fuss?  Could it be the word short?

Shortie Dexters have always been known for their unique qualities; size being only one of many.  You don't like to talk about their thriftiness.  How they can not only survive but thrive and raise their calves on poor pastures where non-dwarfs struggle.  How they require much less hay to over winter, saving their owners  great expense and effort especially in snow country.  The fact that dwarf steers beef up and marble so much quicker and with much less input than their non-dwarf herd mates.  Their temperaments, ease of handling; all of this goes into it.  Like I said the full pkg.

A few yrs ago it was your "Genetic Defect Elimination Policy".  Now it's replacing them with your "true shorts".  I do have to admit though, it does sound a little more palatable than just saying replacing them with small long legs.  After all who's going to go for that ... but now a "true short" that's something.  But it's not, it's the same thing.  Could it be that by using the made up term "true short" to describe small longlegs that you are simply riding on the unique qualities of the true Dexter shortie.

 As I said before, small long legs are lovely animals.  They truly are.  But they are not the same as dwarfs, nor should they ever be described by anyone as the same.  To do so is misleading at best and to do so when you have been informed of the truth and you know better is wrong. 

[cascade]

Dec 22, 2014 5:11:05 GMT wvdexters said:

Dexter cattle come in two body types: short legged and long legged.  (Taken from the ADCA Website "About Dexter Cattle" section.)

.

Nowhere is there any mention of a "true short" type.  So where does this term come from and what exactly does it mean?? 

The ADCA description itself makes ZERO mention of the chondrodysplasia lethal dwarfing gene.
The ADCA description makes ZERO connection between length of legs and any reason for the length of legs.

Legs = Those things Dexters stand on
Short =  Lesser in length
Long = Greater in length

Short legs = Those things dexters stand on are lesser in length than the average dexter
Long legs = Those things dexters stand on are greater in length than the average dexter

That's pretty darn clear.

So certainly some Dexters have legs that are shorter in length than the average, and some Dexters have legs that are longer in length than the average.

Confusion is being caused by breeders who continue to breed for the Lethal Chondrodysplaia Genes who misinform by using OUTDATED, inaccurate, and confusing terminology (shorties and longies) to hide the fact that the dwarfs are artificially dwarfed by a genetic disease of the cartilage and bone. 

Chondro = Cartilage
Dysplasia = Disease or Abnormality

The confusing misuse of the terms "Shortlegged" and "Longlegged" before the discovery of the condrodysplasia gene, was forgivable, but it's outright deceitful to continue to use those terms today when we have such a good understanding of how the Lethal Chondrodysplasia gene works.

Here are 4 questionable and artificial ways to achieve shorter legs:

1. Chemical dwarfing (certain bad chemicals given to the mother during fetal development might dwarf the calf)
2. Nutritional dwarfing (starve the animals during gestation and early development)
3. Surgical dwarfing (have a vet remove some of the bones from the legs)
4. Genetic Disease dwarfing  (purposefully inflict an animal with a disease of the cartilage and bone)

None of those four highly questionable methods actually alter the TRUE genetic leg length of the animal.

There is only ONE WAY to alter the true genetics of the animals to achieve shorter legs that will breed true

SELECTION OF TRULY SHORTER LEGS GENERATION AFTER GENERATION

The term "True Breeding" means that the animal can consistently reproduce itself.  It's common terminology in genetics.

 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_breeding_organism

Chondrodysplastic Dwarfs cannot consistently reproduce themselves due to the fact that homozygosity = LETHAL

True-Breeding Short Dexters (non chondro's with short legs) CAN consistently reproduce themselves

Here's a picture of some True-Breeding Short Legged Dexters WITHOUT the Chondrodysplasia Lethal Dwarfing Gene

Notice their TRUE-Breeding SHORT LEGS

100% of the calves of these True-Short Dexter cattle will be Truly Short.




Note: these are genetically horned dexters that were de-horned as calves.














 

[wvdexters]

Interesting reply. I guess it was my fault, I wasn't clear enough about what I was asking. Too many late nights and not enough sleep I think.(But I really did like the part about the Legs= Those things Dexters stand on.... sense of humor always helps)

This really is a subject very dear to my heart and I would like to discuss it more. You describe yourself as a fan of the small non-dwarf Dexter, and I would describe myself as one also. But my true love will always be with the Dexter dwarfs; they are what brought me to the breed. We have been debating this for years now with so little results, maybe we could get further with an honest conversation instead. So if you are interested, maybe we can pick this up after the Holiday.

So in the "Spirit of the Season" - an olive branch. and Merry Christmas

[cascade]

I honestly believe that everything you like about dwarfs, you can find or create in a true-breeding, true-short version, and then you can have an entire herd of them. Imagine having a short bull and even shorter girls who could just freely breed and give you 100% short calves year after year after year.... all with the features you desire in a true-breeding, trouble-free herd. I think it's possible.

We'll chat later.

Merry Christmas!

[jamshundred]

Kirk,

Theere is still one problem with your position.  If you remove the dwarf genetics. . . . you remove the DEXTER.  Dexter cattle are a DWARF breed.
Yes. . . . Mrs. Rutherford was sucessful in breeding non-dwarf cattle - but she was not successful in keeping the dwarf genetics.  . and the research showed them to be a NEW breed.  They lost their genetic comparison to the Dexter breed.  AND. .  .you miniaturize the breed.   EVERYWHERE in literature about the breed they are described as the smallest breed of European cattle. . .    NOT. . . a miniature breed.

This is a serious question. . .  . there are a number of miniature breeds available in the market now.  Why do you want miniaturized Dexters instead of the existing breeds?  What purpose would they serve and what characteristics do you think you would gain versus established mini breeds?

AND. . . my most important question -  when you are miniaturizing the breed and removing the dwarf connection. . .   WHAT . . else are you removing?  The qualities so valued in the Dexter and described in the brochures .    . ( feed conversion, personality, ease of calving, mothering, most important- IMMUNE system,  . . . . which ones will be leaving the barn since they ALL came in on the dwarf genes.   We already know Kerry-type breeders seem to have lost something. . . .  reports of off-condition cows during drought and off-seasons, reports of calves being pulled, reports of dead calves, and reports of bulls with less than ideal temperaments ( and not just in Lucifer lines - there are several reports of Hedgehog offspring being problematic).
So, which of these valued genetic traits are you willing to trade off ( if not all of them) to Kerry-tize/miniaturize the breed?

Judy

[cascade]

1. There is no such thing as "Dwarf Genetics"... The dwarf gene is a single stand-alone independent lethal chondro gene.

2. A dexter either has that single independent chondro gene, or it doesn't.... all other traits are independent.

3. 93% of all tested dexters do NOT have the dwarf gene according to the online American dexter database. That means that only 7% of all tested Dexters are chondro-dwarfs.

4. 50% of calves born to a chondro-dwarf parent do NOT have the chondro-dwarf gene.

5. Other than shortness, ALL the lovely things we like about Dexters, have NOTHING to do with the dwarf gene - the dwarf gene simply interferes with normal bone growth. But true-breeding shortness, can be easily achieved without the chondro-dwarf gene.

6. ANY CLOSED HERD (like Woodmagic) based on a small number of founding animals, will appear genetically separate from the general breed at large after several decades. It's simply how closed herds work.  The Woodmagic herd meets the Dexter breed description BETTER than any other herd. 

7. True genetic temperament is completely independent from the dwarf gene, but animals with disabilities can seem calmer because of their disabilities. Cut the legs off of a wild cat and it will be forced to crawl over to you for help.  

8. Herds that continually select for good immune systems, easy calving, easy conditioning, and ideal temperaments continue to have those traits regardless of the dwarf gene since those features are all independent of the stand-alone chondro dwarf gene.   Chondro Dwarf herds can be riddled with problems if they don't continue to select for all those other traits, because those traits are independent.  (Our non-chondro herd has all those features very strongly because we select for them).

9. Do chondro-dwarf breeders have temperament problems in the 50% of calves that don't have the chondro-dwarf gene? Dochondro-dwarf breeders have calving problems in the 50% of calves that don't have the dwarf gene? Do 50% of dwarf breeders' calves lack dexter personalities?   If so, do ALL dwarf breeders cull the 50% of their calves that lack the chondro dwarf gene?

10. Other than artificial shortness, NONE of the features we all like about dexters "Came in on the Dwarf Gene"... That gene is a stand-alone and can only exist in 50% of calves, since it can't breed true. Most of the features we like about dexters, came in from their mixed-Kerry parents, with additional selection and tuning from Dexter breeders over time.

11. Anyone wishing to preserve "Valued Genetic Traits" can easily do so, WITHOUT the single stand-alone Lethal Chondro Gene. After all, don't the 50% of calves born in mixed-dwarf herds without that chondro gene have those valued dexter traits?

12. It would be VERY easy to convert a mixed-dwarf herd to a true-short herd and keep all the lovely things you like about your current mixed-dwarf herd.  You might not even need to bring in ANY new genetics.  You might already have everything you need especially if you have a good number of animals to choose from.  Here are the steps:

a. Stop using dwarf bulls with the chondro gene.  Cull them all.  
b. Select your own best and truly shortest (non-chondro) bull to be your next herd sire (if you don't have one, then get one from a herd that you admire if you wish).
c. Keep your truly shortest and best non-chondro calves (remove the rest from your herd).
d. Remove any mothers that won't throw truly short non-chondro calves, when bred on a truly short non-chondro bull.
e. Keep selecting for for all those other good dexter traits each generation, as well as selecting for truly shorter legs.
f. When you need a new bull, get the best and shortest non-chondro bull you can find, from a breeder that has all the other genetics that you desire.
g. Since Chondro Dwarf cows die early, your last Chondro cow will likely be gone within a decade or less, but you'll have all their lovely traits in their true-short descendants.
 

Not everyone wants the very shortest cows possible, so just breed toward the height that suits you best within the breed standard, and make certain you keep all those other wonderful dexter traits too.