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Post by Donlin Stud on Dec 21, 2014 22:12:07 GMT
Let me start off by saying there are enough threads discussing pros and cons of chondro and this is not one of them pls. I am seeking advice on breeding.
Those who breed with dwarf and also non-dwarf boys, have you found any of the seasoned girls having a preference for the slightly older, larger, non-dwarf boys over a dwarf boy?
I know the cows would, if they could choose the most desirable sire for their offspring – its nature’s way but to date we have not seen it so pronounced as it was just recently.
One of our girls who were separated with our 20mth old dwarf boy decided she wanted the sire of her fourth calf to be the non-dwarf boy in the next paddock. She would call and stand close to the fenceline while also chasing the dwarf boy away as she had done in the past with young bullcalves who thought they were mature enough.
And we wondered if she was judging size as a level of maturity or she really did have a preference for the ‘boy next door’?
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Post by cascade on Dec 23, 2014 3:39:32 GMT
I also notice this a lot with our sheep herd and pig herd too... Chickens too. Females of most breeds have certain selection criteria built into their makeup. It is this female selection of males that helps design the males traits. In the case of peacocks, the females select for males that have the very best tails with the most "eye-spots" on the tails, and that selection has resulted in enormous tales for the male peacocks. In the case of sheep, the females are impressed by the best looking rams.
Females have a LARGE investment in each calf, while the male only has a tiny insignificant investment. Because of the LARGE investment a female makes in one single calf, she has to be picky about the sire who can best make her calf a success. The female evaluates each available male before selecting the one she believe has superior genetics. Meanwhile, males are happy to accommodate any willing female.
Males of most breeds are showier than the females in part because the females select for this. A showy male tells a female that he likely has the best genes. It's hard to be a robust and showy male unless you are in pretty good health and have reasonable genetics.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2014 15:06:20 GMT
What is the cows history with this bull she prefers? Was he the dominate herd bull last year? If so maybe she still sees him that way. If you are still having issues maybe move the older bull as far away on the property as you can so they dont share fence lines.
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Post by genebo on Dec 23, 2014 16:08:48 GMT
The breeding actions of cattle are controlled by pheromones. The cow emits pheromones that turn the bull from a peaceful grazer into a suitor. The bull emits pheromones that entice the cow to stand for him.
It is my guess (since I can't detect pheromones) that the older bull is better able to detect and respond to the cow and is also better able to produce the pheromones that will attract the cow. The younger bull may have all the equipment and the desire to join in, but he doesn't yet have them at peak levels.
I have been watching Bambi come into heat in the presence of Brenn and McBrenn, ages 10years and 7 months. It is all the Brenn and Bambi show. McBrenn seems to know better than to try to join in. It's not his time yet.
I doubt that a fence between them would make much difference. That might get you a new task, repairing a fence.
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Post by cascade on Dec 23, 2014 17:49:42 GMT
A determined bull will go over or through a typical fence, but we have a trick to stop that. We run a single VERY hotwire on step-in plastic posts, about 36 inches high and about three feet away from the fence on the bull's side of the fence. We've had 100% success with this combination.
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Post by jamshundred on Dec 23, 2014 18:15:24 GMT
Oops A goof. Just reading. And thinking as to how this info relates to my own experience. No time to sort it all out. . . Lunch break over. Back to work!
Judy
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Post by Donlin Stud on Dec 23, 2014 21:26:06 GMT
What is the cows history with this bull she prefers? Was he the dominate herd bull last year? If so maybe she still sees him that way. If you are still having issues maybe move the older bull as far away on the property as you can so they dont share fence lines. Yes her preference was for the sire of [this] year's calf and he is only second in charge. We are doing some swapping around on the weekend and putting the senior and the second in charge alongside each other instead. We have only the one option at the moment for not fence sharing as we have a couple of visiting girls for joining who are still in the 'quarantine' paddock. Our original, and inexperienced thoughts were have the boys close by so they 'encourage' an early joining because of the perceived competition. Its worked in previous years but obviously now this method in our madness causes issues when we use one of the younger boys  Oh well, its all a learning curve  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2014 22:09:43 GMT
Our farm is in 3 different locations separated by miles. So far it has not been an issue keeping the bulls separated during breeding. This year may prove a challenge with 7 bulls of breeding age. Several will have to be on the same farm during breeding time.
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Post by Donlin Stud on Dec 23, 2014 23:29:48 GMT
Well Genebo and Cascade, again I am sitting wondering why are ours different and have never given us any cause to manage them differently *touch wood*
We do run all the boys together except during this time of year when chosen boys are placed with chosen girls.
The remaining boys stay in their area and the younger heifers are way over yonder in their own space surrounded by 6ft chain wire (which was to be used as 7 acres of safe from fox attack poultry paradise until the wedge-tail eagles used it as a fly-by buffet-table – poultry moved back into the heavily tree area and weaned heifers move in during this time of year)
We don’t have hot wires at all but we do have hinged-locked fencing with barbed-wire as the top row which is just above boy’s horn level and so far so good even when the Braham/Angus cross bulls are next door for 3 months each year.
(I do have to mention here that our girls are generally in- calf and young heifers are back in their area when those bulls are next door.)
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Post by genebo on Dec 24, 2014 0:39:29 GMT
Have you ever bought musk perfume to make yourself more attractive to a man? The musk smell comes from the pheromones that the whales, civets and musk oxen use to do the same thing among themselves. Only animals have smell sensors that are so much more effective than ours are. Perfume has a little influence on a man, but the pheromones absolutely take over a male animal's free will. The pecking order in a herd is a constant thing, and it is also very powerful in influencing behavior within the herd. A bull calf is born into the lowest position within the herd. He learns who he can challenge and who he can't. This creates order. Watch your herd and you will easily pick out who is the herd leader (it's usually the biggest cow). Over time you should be able to chart the entire pecking order of a small herd. The herd bull does not necessarily participate in daily questions of authority. He is beyond and above the level of king, when he is the only bull in the herd. He doesn't need to assert himself, the others accede to him without question. Add a second or third bull and the rules change slightly. The herd bull's authority is not so absolute. He may even be challenged from time to time. But not by the bulls that are just maturing. It takes a while before they even have the bulk to risk a challenge. My herd normally only has one bull, so that is why my experiences are different from yours. A herd with more than one bull has a much more complex social network. Your females in heat can be detected for quite a long distance. That's why your neighbor's bull appears whenever one of your females is in heat. You can readily see what it does to the neighbor's bull. Imagine what it is doing to your own bulls in the same pasture with her. Running two herds, one of males and one of females, creates a more easy-going atmosphere among multiple bulls. Without the females' influence, there is less battling, pushing and shoving. You are lucky to have the room and facilities to be able to do that. Your chain link fence is a good insurance policy against unplanned pregnancies. As long as it is well supported. A bull can elevate his front end high enough to come crashing down on a 4 foot fence and ride it to the ground. Not even an electric wire can prevent that. I had the neighbor's Angus bull pull that trick and cross a 4' woven wire fence with an electric wire strung halfway up. I had a heifer in heat, just on my side of the fence. Thank goodness for Brenn's horns. He got them under the Angus and lifted him. The Angus's front feet were running like crazy, heading back for the fence, while Brenn was carrying his back feet in the same direction. They hit the fence at a different location. Two old railroad tie fence posts snapped off and the woven wire fence was laid on the ground for the Angus bull to sail over. The fence sprung back up and Brenn stood bellowing on my side. The Angus bull stood bleeding on the other side. He still wouldn't leave. The attraction to my heifer was that strong. I shot him on the butt 4 times with my BB gun before he would leave. Later I told my neighbor to chew slowly when he ate that bull, in case some of thos BB's were in there I spent the next day repairing and re-inforcing the fence. Double the number of fence posts and a new electric wire over the top. I don't know whether it is good enough to keep that bull out, for the neighbor moved him to a pasture a couple of miles down the road where the crazy man with the BB gun couldn't shoot him any more Aren't Dexters fun? |
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Post by jamshundred on Dec 24, 2014 15:09:56 GMT
I think my girls prefer my little shorty bull Christmas. ( Speaking of - Merry Christmas everyone!). He is/was ( visiting another farm at the moment)
the smallest dwarf on my farm and the girls would open or move gates or go through fencing (I am sure it was the girls doing this-smile) because I had a number of calves sired by Christmas from cows he did not have permission to court. They just all adore this sweet little dwarf of mine and will go to amazing lengths to gain his attention.
Judy
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