The "Dexter-correct" folks at it again

[jamshundred]

Well, dwarf breeders/lovers and members of ADCA. . . . . . your fellow non-dwarf Kerry-type breeders are at it again. . .

Seems there is discussion in the powers that be. . . . . spurred on by some of the Kerry-type breeders to force UC-Davis to change this information on their website.   ( Source;   VGL-Dexter tests )

Bulldog Dwarfism (Chondrodysplasia)
Inheritance of a form of chondrodysplasia known as bulldog dwarfism
has been documented in Dexter cattle since the early 1900s. Among
other defects, affected fetuses have severe disproportionate dwarfism,
short vertebral column and a large head, and are naturally aborted
around the seventh month of gestation.  The defect is a major problem
for Dexter breeders, as one copy of the defective allele produces the
favored short-legged phenotype of Dexter cattle. Thus, selection for
the preferred Dexter phenotype maintains a lethal allele in high
frequency in the population. Breeding carrier animals together will
produce 25% affected fetuses.

Research by investigators in Australia determined that the
bulldog dwarfism in Dexters is caused by two mutations in the aggrecan
gene (ACAN). The most common mutation is BD1
(2266_2267ins-GGCA). A second mutation in the same gene – BD2
(–198C>T) – accounts for bulldog dwarfism in one particular bull
lineage. A diagnostic test for BD1 has been developed and is available
to help Dexter breeders avoid production of bulldog calves.

They want the word, PREFERRED removed.

Well, since Dexters ARE a dwarf breed. . . . . those genetics ARE . . . . . . . . . PREFERRED.

Maybe dwarf breeders should do their own mailing to the ADCA board which has NOT been very good at either representing this breed and for sure has done NOTHING to protect it's foundation genetics and bloodlines. . .AND contact VGL as well since I am sure I Kerry-type fellow breeders have done so as well.

Judy

[genebo]

That word, "preferred", has been in use for quite a long time and properly describes the phenotype that the Dexter breed is famous for. Removing it will be like denying our heritage, a form of knuckling under to the detractors of the breed, re-writing our history.

Bah! Humbug to those who have nothing better in life than to spend it pursuing something like this.

Shame on them!

[Deleted]

I would suggest not calling them "Kerry-type breeders" I know what you mean but I like kerry looking dexters. I dont know who the breeders are who are pushing this but I have a good idea who they might be and they dont breed animals that look like Kerry. Maybe Angus type would be a better term

[cascade]

1. Dexters are a small breed.

2. The preferred phenotype is small/compact with not-too-long of legs

3. Ideal Dexter bulls should be between 38" and 44" at three years of age, no more, no less

4. While a compact phenotype in dexters IS preferred,  the lethal chondro gene is NOT preferred.

5. You can have the preferred compact dexters with shorter legs WITHOUT the lethal chondro gene

6. 93% of tested dexters are free of chondro gene, only 7% have the lethal chondro gene according to the online database

7. The Fake-short Chondro Dwarfs throw MUCH taller animals 50% of the time and throw lethal gene carriers the other 50% of the time

8. The True-Breeding True short non-Chrondro Dexters reproduce their short phenotypes consistently without the lethal chondro gene.

In the days before chondro testing was available, selecting for compactness often meant getting the chondro gene by accident even if you hated the gene. This actually drove many breeders, in the past, to select for longer legs just to try to avoid the lethal gene.  Now the test for chondro allows breeders to freely select for the preferred compact phenotype WITH shorter legs, but WITHOUT the lethal chondro gene.

Here is a preferred short phenotype Dexter WITHOUT the Chondro lethal gene  (I believe this bull was around 41 inches at age three)
He certainly does NOT look like a Kerry Bull



Here is a Kerry Bull... his legs are 2-3 times longer than the preferred phenotype dexter bull above




Here is another preferred phenotype DEXTER bull WITHOUT The Chondro gene  - this one from the AI catalog is 39"



Here's a 42 inch Dexer bull without Chondro for those who like red and polled  (doesn't look like a Kerry and his mother's udder is very nice and milky)
This one was never vaccinated, never de-wormed, fed grass and hay only, and friendly as a puppy















 

[genebo]

Dec 24, 2014 21:48:03 GMT cascade said:

Here's a quote worth reading:

"We believe. if a lie is repeated often enough, it will eventually be accepted as the truth. Unfortunately, examples of this can be found in agriculture, business, politics and religion. Once members of the status quo have accepted a lie as the truth, it is almost impossible to expose it for what it really is." ....  Kit Pharo

In the last month there have been so many lies posted on here that most of them go unchallenged. This leads to acceptance. After all, if you read it on the internet, it must be true, right?

This afternoon, I went out into my pasture and took some leg measurements. My preferred phenotype dwarf Dexter bull, 10 years old, is 41" tall at the hips. 36" of that is his hind leg.

That is correct. His hind leg measures 36" from the ground to the top of his femur. Three feet.

Mr. Fackler stated that a picture of a kerry bull that he posted has legs that are 2-3 times longer than the preferred phenotype of a Dexter bull. Really? Do the math. The Kerry bull has legs that are between 72 and 108 inches long? Six to nine feet?

How many of you questioned what he wrote? How many question the rest of what you read? Our forum is filling to overflowing with fabrications, made up on the spot to support an agenda.

The next time you spot one of these posts, take the time to read and question what is being offered. Don't accept a lie.

[jamshundred]

Kirk,

Are you absolutely sure that the animals you picture are WHO or WHAT they are said to be?  ( No doubt you can guess I have "some" reason for asking the question.

Reminds me of an animal I thought should be genotyped  . . so offspring could be parentage confirmed.  I was told on a public chat forum it would be done if *I* wanted to pay for it.   HA!.  I sent the money but no sample was ever submitted.  One woud think the old cow was worthy of being documented.  Would you wonder why not?

Judy

[jamshundred]

Genebo,

THANKS for going out there on the mule and doing that measuring.  ( Are you absolutely sure you are not overdoing it)?  That was very interesting.  Goodness but I need another 24 hours at least in each day to do everything I could or should.

I have been struggling with TWO virus attacks.  The most annoying, ( have to think it that is accurate but close) is the malware virus that hit my email.  I HAD to get that one from a Craigslist posting. . . so PLEASE everyone. . . be careful.    If it looks to good to be true. . it is.   I did not know there is a way to hide your email address. . . . just found that out.  Although all these precautions are so much trouble I don't think it is worth it.  The crooks are winning!

The second virus came via my grand-dau who had  been sick for a week just before Cmas with that respiratory virus that seems to be making the rounds.  Yep. . . she gave it to me for Christmas.  Today is the first day I've felt human for a few days and I attribute my quick recovery ( seems to be lasting weeks in others) to massive doses of Vitamin C and Kelp and some D as well plus every other natural remedy I could think of.

I sound awful. .  .but feel OK.  It was warm here again today and I spent all morning out on the farm grateful I felt up to it because I had to put hay in all the fields.

Judy

[genebo]

I'm glad you are feeling better. There are some pretty nasty things going around.

The man who had been helping with the farm work here came back from his Christmas visit to his family with it. He's just at the worst stage. His bug won't let him eat anything, so he's been sipping chicken soup and tonight I sent him some ginger ales.

While I was measuring the bull, I tried to measure the cows, too. Their hip structure is different and it isn't so obvious where their legs end. I can tell within about 1.5 inches, but not exactly.

Bambi is six years old and is already an inch over the 3 year height standard. She was an inch under at three years old. He leg seemed to be 38" long.

Bambina is three years old and 41" tall. Her leg is 36" long. I'm pretty sure of the measurement of her leg.

Both cows are non-dwarf, really great specimens. They are the ones I kept to rebuild my herd from, using Brenn as sire.

[Deleted]

The bull posted here as being Kerry does not look like a typical Kerry bull to me.

[cascade]

Here's another Champion Kerry Bull

Kerry Bull "Mancha Gordon" Champion, Royal Agricultural Society of England show 1904; vintage


Now below is that excellent real-dwarf, true breeding ,Non-Chondro  Dexter Bull again... I believe he was about 41" at 3 years
This is what GOOD Dexter breeders can accomplish WITHOUT lethal dwarfing genes.
Compare his TRUE short (non chondro) front legs to the Champion Kerry Bull above



You can have excellent, true-breeding, true short dexter bulls WITHOUT the lethal chondro dwarfing gene.

[genebo]

I've often wondered where the photos he posts come from. Lots of questions, starting with, "Does he have permission to use it?" Next I wonder if he has ever seen any of these animals? Has he talked with the owners? Are the things he claims about them actually documented anywhere? How much is purely made up?

I know of one case where all the wrong answers applied. That is the picture of my bull that he took from the ADCA AI Bulls page. He had no permission to take it or use it in one of his rants on Olga's board. The ADCA Ethics Committee resolved my complaint by telling me that he promised them he wouldn't do it again. Big deal.

We shouldn't have to rely upon some ineffective committee to enforce ethics upon people. Everyone should come equipped with some. We should avoid contact with those who don't.

[otf]

Everytime I see the photo of the "DEXTER bull WITHOUT The Chondro gene - this one from the AI catalog is 39" (3rd photo), I cringe at this bull's calf-kneed appearance and hope it's just a poor photo. Maybe the owner will step up and take a better photo, but I would not be paying good money to reproduce those front legs! (I suppose now I'll be criticized for criticizing.)

[cascade]

System Error
 

[jamshundred]

Regardless of that photo, you can breed excellent true-short cattle WITHOUT lethal genes and you can breed excellent true-short cattle with excellent legs. Any minor flaws can be corrected.

Kirk is absolutely correct.  You can.  There are several breeds available, and quite a few that were in development by Mr. Gradwhol whose status I am unsure.  ( At least when he crossed his Dexter with another breed he did the right thing and gave them a NEW breed name).  Imagine crossing an Eagle with a Buzzard and calling it an Eagle.  Good gosh get my gun.  Oh!  Back to the subject.   These "true-short" cattle are ALL called miniature cattle.   Dexter cattle are not miniatures, they are a dwarf breed.  ( unless you are breeding without keeping the chondro gene in your bloodlines).

PS. You must really cringe when you see AI bulls purposefully carrying lethal genes. That certainly would send shivers down the spine of ALL real cattle people. They would shake their heads in disbelief. The only way to "correct" lethal genes, is to cull them out of the breed over time.

That is two for two Kirk!   You are right.   REAL cattle people do NOT raise Dexters. Of any bone lenght.  

What would you have me do with my RARE albino miniature donkey Kirk?



Judy   

[jamshundred]

Gale,

What is "calf-knee"? I had not heard that expression before. If he is A1/A1 as I was told, that is probably his biggest cross to carry ( have never seen test reports so if it isn't accurate here is the opportunity to set the record straight. . . it does not show on the AI page).

Judy

[otf]

Judy, I always have difficulty posting any photos on this board, and I'm not sure why.  Google calf-kneed and you'll see many examples.  The front legs bow in toward the back at the knee and are not straight, mostly visible from the side.  I don't know that bull and have only seen that one photo, but if I were selling semen from him, I'd sure use a better photo.  

Kirk, I have chondro carriers and non-carriers.  Each type has its pros and cons.  I'd much rather have a chondro carrier with good conformation than a non-carrier with poor conformation.

Gale

[jamshundred]

Gale,

So do I!  ( Have difficulty posting photos).   I use the "add attachment" box in the upper right corner and upload my photos with it.  I think Gene uses photobucket but I am no geek and even though I have tried that I have not the pace to figure it all out! 

Judy

[genebo]

I do use Photobucket to post pictures that I think are worthy of being seen in larger view. I'm not sure what the impact is on storage size.

Olga had to ask everyone to quit posting large photos on her board one time. That's when I started posting the smaller images from my computer.

To my mind, that seems backward, since the smaller images are stored on her site while the Photobucket images are not. The Photobucket image has to be reloaded every time it is viewed, and can cause the forum to load slowly if you have a slow connection.

First, make sure your photos are not excessively large. Set your camera on it's lowest resolution, about 1 megapixel. Then use either the Create Thread or Quote or Reply buttons to make your post. Do not use the Post Quick Reply button for direct posting of smaller images. You need to see an Add Attachment button in the upper right corner.

Write your post to the point where you want to insert a picture. With the flashing bar in your text where you want the picture placed, click the Add Attachment button. A window will open up. Click the Add Files button. Navigate to the location of the photo on your computer and select the photo.

The Add Attachment window will re-open, showing a progress bar as your photo loads. When it finishes loading, two buttons will appear. One says Insert and one says Delete. If you click on Insert, your photo will be inserted at the position where you left the flashing bar. Delete will remove the photo from the Add Attachment window. Now click on Done or Add Files toeither return to your post or add another photo.

That should get you started.