Around Washington state chondo-carriers

[hollyrockranch]

Hi Dose anyone know of some breeder/rancher out west who has chondo-carriers? I am chondo curious. I have been reading a lot of the post's on this site about chondo-carriers v/s long legs. I have long legged Dexter's when we went to find our cows after months of reading and looking on the net and calling e-mailing tons of Dexter breeders we set up a date to visit 4 farm on the cost of WA, we met with several farmers and no one had shorty's chondo or not. I am interested in true short Dexter with or with out chondo. I would love to get some info on chondo form someone that has first hand experience.  Thanks.

[lakeportfarms]

Hollyrockranch, If you go to the ADCA pedigree page, you can enter in the fields" Washington" for state, and "chondro" under the chondro field, and come up with a list of carrier Dexters. I did, and it's pretty short, just 4 animals. Now there may be more, these are just chondro carriers that are tested and reported, but the owners or breeders of these Dexters would be a good source of information. But as you can see they're pretty rare and hard to come by, good luck trying to pry one of these carriers away from them. But I highly encourage you to compare and talk to the owners and breeders, so you're doing it right!

Three of the Dexters have photos...but I have to say from the photos they do not have the look of what we strive for in our carriers. That is, they're rather long in the leg compared to what I'm used to seeing and breeding ourselves. Personally I like the carriers that have a very distinct carrier look to them. Perhaps that is what leads Kirk to the assumption that he can breed his Dexters to have the same type of short legs.

Another option is to take a non-carrier cow that has nice conformation and pedigree, and then have her bred using AI to a nice carrier bull (there are three bulls available in the ADCA AI catalog, one black, one red, and one dun) You can then start to build your chondro herd with the chondro carriers you've produced as your foundation. Keep your carrier cows, and sell the non carrier heifers or use them bred to a carrier bull again to hopefully make more carrier heifers. Both the non-carrier and carrier bulls make good beef, or if you have a good prospect that fits in with your breeding plans you can use him as a future breeder.

It takes a long time to build a herd of any size with nice chondro carrier Dexters. The key for us was that we had a carrier bull who threw a disproportionate number of chondro carriers himself, and we have a large number of non-carrier cows. That way, we had a good chance of getting carrier heifers. Initially, we sold our carrier heifers because Mike was such a fine bull, and we were happy with our non-carrier cows.  Also, with young children, we felt a lot more comfortable having a very small bull on the property.  But as the kids have grown, and Mike neared the end of his life (and our non-carrier cows are getting older too), we kept all of his carrier heifers with which to base the majority of our herd on now. The carrier cows are just more efficient producers for us, especially here in Michigan with our heavy snows and cold temperatures with a long hay feeding season.

[cascade]

Remember this when you breed two Dexters together:

Chondro X Chondro =
25% dead deformed calves
25% giants (compared to the parents)
50% chondro dwarfs with early arthritis and short lives and carrying a lethal gene

Chondro X Non-Chondro =
50% giants compared to the chondro parent
50% dwarfs with early arthritis and short lives and carrying a lethal gene

True Short X True Short  =
100% compact calves, long lives, no lethal genes, breed true.



PS.  We have no chondro's, but you're welcome to come visit our herd to compare with other herds you might visit.  We have a herd of about 40 compact, very friendly, polled, mostly red Dexters.   There aren't many Chondros out west, and most people out west are very leery of lethal genes.     

[hollyrockranch]

Thank you cascade where are you located? The picture of your momma cow and bulls are nice, the sizes look good in the pictures, momma cow is very cute. I don't like the risk that is associated with chondo, any calf loss in a herd is significant. But the cows pictured in one of the articles on the board I was reading where so sweet and tinny looking if a person could achieve a little of that with out chondo I would be on board. I am thinking of getting a cow that is on the tinny side of the scale to add a little size difference in. Thank you for the offer to visit your farm.

[Deleted]

dont believe Kirks crap. You have to decide for yourself if chondro is right for you. there is 0 risk of a bulldog just dont breed a carrier to a carrier. Kirk likes to make it sound like its rocket science. for his own agenda. I am looking for a Legacy chondro my self but I have yet to find one that the owners are willing to part with.

[genebo]

Part of the problem you are having finding dwarf Dexters for sale is due to people like Kirk, who have bashed our breed so badly and so frequently that some breeders have become intiminated by it. They won't advertise their chondro calves for sale for fear of being harrassed.

That is a shame.

What you might do is to reverse the normal process, and advertise to buy them. Post a "Wanted to Buy" ad on craigslist, on Homesteading Today's Cattle and Barter Boards, and here, on Dextercattleworld.

You can post ads on the Legacy site, which should be a rich source for Traditional Dexters.

The cost of shipping is always a concern. However, the nearest breeders to you may not be in Washington State (depending upon your location) so search for listings in neighboring states and have a map handy to see where they are. I'm in central Virginia and there are breeders in North Carolina, Maryland, Delaware and West Virginia that are as close to me as the southwest corner of Virginia.

If you don't have a trailer for pickup, then ask the seller if they will deliver. Some will offer you a great deal on delivery, to clinch a sale. There is another benefit to having the cattle delivered is that you take possession at your farm, rather than at theirs. Making a safe trip is on them instead of you. I do that. I offer delivery to those that are within my driving range.

Even if you do arrange delivery, it is still the very best idea to go visit the Dexters before you buy. See if they are tame or are range cattle. See how well you interact with them. Odds are you will develop favorites while you are there and either buy the favorite or one of their offspring. If you intend to milk, visiting is vital! You will be spending a lot of time sharing space with the cow. You might as well work with one you like and that likes you.

Lonecowhand has been searching and collecting information on Dexters and he is based in the west. I'll bet he could be a rich information resource for you. He's a nice guy.

Good luck in your search. I hope you find some nice little Dexters to enjoy. If you do, show us some pictures and tell us about them.

[jamshundred]

Holly,

Without dwarf Dexters there is. . . .  . .NO. .  ... Dexter breed.   As more and more research. . . both archives of records and scientific with DNA continues I find no information available to show that Dexter cattle were not established as a dwarf breed.  Furthermore. . . . . . the most famous of herds which eliminated the dwarf genetics. . . . also eliminated any comparison to the Dexter breed.  The scientist who headed the Cardiff research project will tell you that the Woodmagic herd had evolved considerably away from it's Dexter roots.

Those who are advocating the removal of the dwarf genes. . . . advocate the demise of the Dexter breed.   ALL the characteristics that are found in the brochures and advertising related to Dexters are the characteristics of DWARF cattle.   As non-dwarf cattle become removed from these genetics. . . they lose these characteristics. . . and they simply become non-dwarf cattle called by the name of Dexter. . . . . but more comparable to other breeds.   They become the Kerry with whom they shared the herd books of their early beginnings.

If the anti-dwarf folks had their way, ( and WHY  do they want their way? think on that for a minute), then Dexter cattle would have all the traits of the Kerry breed. . . . and where are they?   Practically extinct.    Here are two breeds that began practically as one. . . .  at the same precise time in history.
One has flourished . . . . . because of DWARFISM. . . . . the other struggles to maintain enough animals to even continue the breed.    You MUST think on this.   If the Dexter breed is to survive. . . . . especially in the cattle market that exists today. . . . . it MUST remain the unique and special little breed of dwarf carrier cattle with it's niche market.  Dexters are NOT for everyone.  Just as they are special. . . . so must their owners and breeders be special.


The Dexter breed has been overrun with opportunists and sits on the brink of extinction.  Oh!  Did I forget the increased numbers being registered?  It is a temporary fad that will NOT be sustained.  NOT with the type of cattle being registered.  Currently Dexters are like the ponzi or pyramid schemes.  Those who have been at the top of the pyramid have been doing quite well. . . .however  they have been selling a LIE!  The lie will not sustain this breed.

This pseudo market is primed to crash.   The beef cattle will not and cannot compete in the goldrush taking place in the beef markets today. A Dexter presented as a Dexter, ( versus being passed as a beef breed) will bring around 40 cents a pound less than that traditional beef animal.  Cattlemen are out there to make profits. . . . they are not going to waste their time in the Dexter breed especially since Dexters will not survive the commercial process and are best when raised for "beef from the farm".   The dairy cattle are destined for the small holding/homestead. . for an individual family milk cow.  They have never been a dairy animal in the US except for a handful of breeders over time. There will never come a day that Dexters in the US will be the cows of the commercial dairy lots.   The past of Dexters and the future of Dexters is exactly what they were in the beginning. . . . .  .small dwarf cattle with pleasing personalities that are easy to keep and tend for the small holder/homesteader.    Small holders grow more and more scarce each day. . . . just as farmland is disappearing in record numbers.

I have raised dwarf cattle for more than 20 years.  The statistics are book driven. . .. not reality driven.  You have to learn your profession and how/what to breed just as anyone else in any other profession or get a mentor to help guide you.  You can raise ( and even breed together) dwarf cattle with minimum loss and maximum enjoyment of these very, very, special cattle.  The characteristics carried on the DNA of dwarf cattle are important to mankind and MUST be preserved.  Likely not in my lifetime, probably not in yours.  .   but not so far in the future. . .. . . . the world as we know it. . . . . and have lived it with ease of opportunity and excess will cease and the Dexter, in it's original type. .  .. will offer hope and sustenance to the disadvantaged in the future as they did in the past.  These animals and their unique qualities simply have to be preserved.

Those who advocate their demise are not so different than others over the course of time who believed they knew what was best for man and beast and have been proven unequivocally wrong.

Judy

[Donlin Stud]

Jan 10, 2015 23:25:51 GMT cascade said:

Remember this when you breed two Dexters together:

Chondro X Chondro =
25% dead deformed calves
25% giants (compared to the parents)
50% chondro dwarfs with early arthritis and short lives and carrying a lethal gene

Chondro X Non-Chondro =
50% giants compared to the chondro parent
50% dwarfs with early arthritis and short lives and carrying a lethal gene

True Short X True Short  =
100% compact calves, long lives, no lethal genes, breed true.



PS.  We have no chondro's, but you're welcome to come visit our herd to compare with other herds you might visit.  We have a herd of about 40 compact, very friendly, polled, mostly red Dexters.   There aren't many Chondros out west, and most people out west are very leery of lethal genes.     

Kirk, Im disappointed how the above has been worded when providing someone with information when enquiring about Chondro-carriers to add to their herd.

Chondro X Chondro =
25% dead deformed calves
25% giants (compared to the parents)
25% non-carriers who can be around 20% taller than the parents.
50% chondro dwarfs with early arthritis and short lives and carrying a lethal gene
50% chondro dwarfs
It is surmised that the development of arthritis could be due to long-term excess weight since Chondro-dwarfs will maintain better condition than non-dwarfs when in the same environment and feed conditions
But it is not a scientific fact nor is there actual figures recorded to support the chondro arthritis claim.

Chondro X Non-Chondro =
50% giants compared to the chondro parent
50% non-carriers who will be around 20% taller than the chondro parent.
50% dwarfs with early arthritis and short lives and carrying a lethal gene
50% chondro dwarfs.
It is surmised that the development of arthritis could be due to long-term excess weight since Chondro-dwarfs will maintain better condition than non-dwarfs when in the same environment and feed conditions
But it is not a scientific fact nor is there actual figures recorded to support the chondro arthritis claim.

True Short X True Short =
100% compact calves, long lives, no lethal genes, breed true.
Dual purpose is the objective of the breed. Extremes of either is very undesirable.

[wvdexters]

Hi Holly!!   Welcome to the forum!  Glad to see you are so interested in finding a shortie Dexter for yourself.  They are wonderful animals and we love ours. 

We have both types of Dexters here; both dwarfs (chondro carriers) and small non-dwarfs (non-carriers).   I wish we lived closer so you could come by.  Both types make great animals and are similar in size, but there are also many important differences between them.  

The term "true shorts" is simply a new label some are using now to describe small long legs (or small non-carriers).  They are wonderful animals, but they are exactly what they are; small non-dwarfs.  While small in size, easily fitting into the breed guidelines for height, it is important to remember that they do not carry with them either the advantages or the disadvantages of true dwarf Dexters (shorties); the historically preferred body type.

True Dexter "Shorties" are dwarf cattle.  They are the historically preferred body type because of their many attributes; attributes that can't be found elsewhere.   They are unique.   But with their many advantages (having been discussed here many times)  they do have one disadvantage:  25% of dwarf/dwarf matings will result in a non-viable calf; either spontaneously aborted early in the pregnancy or birthed dead later as "bull dogs".  So care should be taken in breeding, and all issues can easily be avoided 100% of the time by not breeding dwarfs (carriers) together.

So for breeders looking for "smaller" Dexter cattle there are two choices; each having merit but different from the another.  And one should never be considered or portrayed as a "replacement" for the other.  They are two very distinct types.

If you do decide to look for a dwarf, try the idea Gene had about advertising for one.  I don't know of any specific breeders in your area but I've seen a few available on the internet and facebook.   The thing is that so many breeders just don't have their testing results listed.  I do hope you can find one, because they are such wonderful animals.  So worth the effort to find one.

Edited to add:  Just remembered the coming AGM in Virginia.  Trailers will be coming ... and heifers don't take much room.    

[legendrockranch]

Hi Holly,

I guess you could say I am on the other side of the fence. I do not breed chondro carriers I breed non-carriers but believe everyone should be able breed what the like, as long as all animals are tested and results posted on association websites. This is not being done now.

The one problem I have always mentioned and as you can see from the responses you've already received, the word "carrier" is misleading. Chondro carriers not only carry the gene they are also affected by it. Has anyone on this thread mentioned that yet? Of coarse not. I'm not just talking about the possibility of having a non-viable fetus which has been mention.

I strongly suggest that you do your own research into this.

Here is a link to a 2014 article:

omicsonline.org/open-access/genetic-and-pathoanatomical-features-of-the-bovine-prenatal-lethal-chondrodysplasia-2161-1041-3-132.pdf

[genebo]

One of the first Dexter farms I ever visited when I began searching for Dexters had all long legged types except for one. That one was a marvel! She was so small and unintimidating. I petted her and my heart was won. I vowed to buy some just like her, since she was not for sale.

It wasn't just her small size that caught me. It was her demeanor, so different from the rest of the herd. While they were all tame, and would stand to be petted, she would turn and approach you. Then, when you stroked her flanks, she would shiver and lean into you. I swear, if she was a cat she would have purred. I was hooked and have been ever since.

You can see her here, in the ADCA breed guidelines, with a calf. To me, she is the finest example of a short legged Dexter cow. Scroll down to her picture:

www.dextercattle.org/breed%20discription.htm

[lakeportfarms]

There is absolutely NO possible chance of a "non-viable fetus" if you do not breed two chondro carriers together. NONE. A simple test pulling tail hairs will determine if you have a chondro carrier or not. And most carriers are relatively easy to identify, even without the test. Even if you breed two carriers together, there is only a 25% chance of having a bulldog calf.

We go over and over and over this. Frankly, the usual naysayers like Kirk and Barb should be more concerned with the many breeders who are taking any red polled bull they produce, no matter if the bull should be deserving , and offering them for sale as herd sires to unsuspecting newbies who will then produce more poor quality Dexters.

All of this "helpful advice" from breeders who have never owned carriers...who can't describe with any personal experience what it is like to own carriers, who can compare side by side experiences between chondro carrier and non-carrier Dexters. That would be like me going to a podiatrist to get an opinion on why I have a toothache.

As Gene, Judy, and WVDexters have said, even if you have Dexters of similar height, one a chondro carrier and the other not, there are VERY distinct differences between them. And the biggest offender, Kirk, presents these false choices when breeding for carriers. If I have a 40" non-carrier, bred to a chondro bull that is also out of small genetics, I'm not going to get a "giant" Dexter if the calf is a non-carrier, despite what Kirk claims. I'll get a Dexter that is short, and if it is a chondro carrier, I'll get a Dexter that is even shorter.

[Donlin Stud]

Jan 11, 2015 23:34:20 GMT legendrockranch said:

Hi Holly,

 Chondro carriers not only carry the gene they are also affected by it. Has anyone on this thread mentioned that yet? Of coarse not. I'm not just talking about the possibility of having a non-viable fetus which has been mention.

And here is a photo of one of our boys on Saturday

He is a chondro carrier and thank goodness he is "affected by it" too.

He will be a keeper.................

LINK: Chab

And the other boy who came online this year as a sire:
[He is the shortie, carrier, affected one ] LINK: Bailey

[cascade]

Dexters are a small breed of cattle.  All smaller breeds of cattle have been plagued with problematic dwarfism.  The original Dexters originated simply by visual inspection. The shortest cattle were selected from groups of Kerry and other mixed breeds of cattle.  Many of those original short cattle were chondro-dwarfs with the lethal chondro gene.  Some of those short cattle were truly short cattle without the chondro lethal gene.   Long ago, some breeders with some of the truly shorter genetics did their best to weed out the lethal chondro gene to eliminate the dead calf problem and to stabilize the short height of the breed.

These non-chondro true-short dexters will breed true and have all the same positive features that dexters are famous for.... Friendly, dual purpose, productive.

You can have all the things you like about short, friendly dexters WITHOUT the Lethal Chondro gene.
And the good news is that ALL the non-chondro true-short calves will be like the parents, instead of a mishmash of results. 

[legendrockranch]

Jan 11, 2015 23:34:20 GMT legendrockranch said:

 I'm not just talking about the possibility of having a non-viable fetus which has been mention.

Hans my post is as stated above. I was just commenting that it had already been mentioned, below is what was said prior on this same thread.

Here is WV post "they do have one disadvantage: 25% of dwarf/dwarf matings will result in a non-viable calf; either spontaneously aborted early in the pregnancy or birthed dead later as "bull dogs". So care should be taken in breeding, and all issues can easily be avoided 100% of the time by not breeding dwarfs (carriers) together."

What is so hard about understanding that?

Edited to add:  you are absolutely right, more animals should be culled including the polled reds. Lets not forget a dun cow with a blown udder.

[lakeportfarms]

Jan 12, 2015 4:53:08 GMT legendrockranch said:

Jan 11, 2015 23:34:20 GMT legendrockranch said:

 I'm not just talking about the possibility of having a non-viable fetus which has been mention.

Hans my post is as stated above. I was just commenting that it had already been mentioned, below is what was said prior on this same thread.

Here is WV post "they do have one disadvantage: 25% of dwarf/dwarf matings will result in a non-viable calf; either spontaneously aborted early in the pregnancy or birthed dead later as "bull dogs". So care should be taken in breeding, and all issues can easily be avoided 100% of the time by not breeding dwarfs (carriers) together."

What is so hard about understanding that?

Edited to add:  you are absolutely right, more animals should be culled including the polled reds. Lets not forget a dun cow with a blown udder.

 Bulls have a far greater impact on the breed population over time than do cows, I think that is a generally accepted fact if you didn't know.  You are so passive-aggressive with your posts.  You say people should be able to breed what they want, then post links to articles that feature prominent photos of bulldog calves, which can be entirely avoided with a simple test which has been covered extensively here and in other forums.   Shall I post the photos of the distorted from dystocia and born dead 65lb. bull calf out of a polled bull linebred back to his daughter that we had a couple of years ago?  After all, if everybody follows Kirk's advice to try to get "true short" miniaturized Dexters, it will no longer be an easy calving breed when you get throwbacks to the larger genetics.  I can refer you to a miniature Hereford breeder near us that kept getting throwback large calves (one year losing 9 of 12 calves) out of three separate registered mini-hereford bulls, entirely unrelated  who finally threw in the towel and AI bred them using Mike semen.  Viola!  No more dead calves!  They were so appreciative not only did they purchase the semen from us, but they gave us a mini-Hereford heifer that we still have here.

You must be referring to Rosie, the dun cow with blown udder.  Yes, her udder isn't the best, it was damaged at the prior owners when she calved outside unexpectedly in January, the calf was lost to the extreme below zero cold temperatures and windchills, and due to the cold the owners didn't milk her out to relieve the pressure, but she is a prodigious producer of milk.  Just to find out, we separated her for a day and milked her to see, and got 3 gallons in the morning, and another 2-1/2 gallons that evening.  The photo was taken an hour before she calved, and frankly after she's been milked out it doesn't look much worse than half of the udder photos I've seen of Dexters posted on Olga's site or Facebook (where they're not trying to show them off).  She'll be 10 years old this year, and we've steered every one of her bull calves, and we're currently evaluating one shortie heifer out of Mike when she calves to see how she turns out.  Don't accuse us of irresponsible breeding.

Here is one of her daughters, Michelle, 6 years old in her 4th lactation with a 5 month old bull calf on her.  Would you like to critique her udder too?  Should I cull her because of her moms udder?







This is her bull calf sired by Mike, should I cull him too?  He is going to a small homestead as a future herd sire in a few months.

[wvdexters]

Holly,  Forgot to tell you how much I  like "chondro curious".     That's pretty funny.  I hope you are getting some of the information and answers you were looking for here; (definitely getting input from many different viewpoints.)  LOL  Just remember the decision is up to you.  Find what makes you happy and what works best for your own personal situation.  That's how we did here at Knobley, and we have never looked back.  We love our Dexters!

 

[genebo]

Hans,

I like what you are doing with your cattle. If I had more room, I would probably still be doing something similar.

I used to have a mix of fullblooded Dexters and Dexter/whatever crosses. My first calf, Annie, was a rescued Dexter/Shorthorn. A wonderful girl with an odd shaped udder and ice cream cone teats. Lots of milk. She raised several nice calves here that were sold as grade cattle. She was too tall for my tastes, so when I decided to concentrate only on fullblooded Dexters, she went to a farm near here, where she is still being milked and providing them with fat beef calves.

Another outstanding cow was Ruffles, a Dexter/Charolais/Hereford mix. She was 1/2 Dexter, from a great little shortie Dexter bull, and inherited the gentle temperament of Dexters, just like Annie did. She was such a nice cow that she caught the eye of one of the most prominent beef cattle farmers around here. He begged me to sell her to him. When I switched to all fullbloods, I sold Ruffles and her daughter to a family that milked them on cow shares. Both are still being milked.

An assortment of other Dexter crosses, steers, bulls and heifers, passed through here. They readily sold, due to their Dexter influence. People who are used to the rough behavior of the grade cattle that are sold around here readily appreciate the gentle nature of these animals.

In all but two cases, the crossbreeds that I raised were sired by shortie Dexter bulls, giving them the ultimate Dexter temperament. I did have an award-winning long legged Dexter bull here for a while, and he sired a few offspring for me, but I could never warm up to him. He was too tall, mainly, and he lacked the warmth and friendliness that I expected. He was preceeded here by Windridge Nollaig (Noelly), so he had a big job following him. Noelly was an outstanding little shortie that loved to be petted.

It took a few years, and some lucky buys, to assemble the fullblooded herd that I had last year. Six of them, the epitomy of my efforts, left abruptly when Babe had to take over running th farm. I miss them a lot. But the farm will recover. Two new fullblooded Dexter calves were just born and more will come. DNA tests will help guide my breeding selections. I'm just starting to dabble in AI, in order to be able to use the genetics of some Legacy qualified bulls. Fairy Hill Peter is on tap to AI Eve next month. My storage is just full of an assortment of semen. Traditional and Legacy and even Lucifer, in case they develop a DNA test for the mean gene.

I only have one example of Modern genetics on the farm. One steer, a Lucifer descendant. He is also a son of Brenn, which is why I wanted him to fill my freezer. I'd heard so many praises for the beef from Brenn's descendants that I decided to try it, myself. Yet even Brenn couldn't make a gentleman out of this butt-headed steer. He's a pistol. It's a trial keeping him until the planned date at the butcher.

Up to now, all the Dexter beef I've eaten came from other people's farms. Sometimes I'd buy a young bull and have him steered, although I've also bought steers already castrated. One of the finest steers I ever raised was a shortie named "17". He was a pleasant, gentlemanly little fellow. It was heartwrenching to take him to the slaughterhouse. The payoff was in the eating. Mmmmm! The best tasting, tenderest beef ever!

Thank goodness for everyone who takes it on themselves to keep these darling little Dexters, with their friendly personalities. They reward us in so many ways. Without them, there would be a hole in my soul.

[legendrockranch]

Hans I don't know who the cow was. Her picture was linked on another forum with comments from other cattlemen saying you should send her down the road. They apparently took it off of your face book page. You must have removed her picture as the link doesn't work.  Also included is one of the comments someone made about her udder (high lighted in blue). 

facebook.com/pages/Lakeport-DexterHighland-Farm/204103669622017#!/photo.php?fbid=427799517252430&set=a.362496457116070.87621.204103669622017&type=3&theater

Here's a little education, your cow has a "blown" udder. Would have been culled by most on this forum, or anyone else who is "knowledgeable"

If passive aggressive is putting the whole truth out about chondro, than I'll take it. 

Bulls are 50% of your herd, and while they can improve udders there is only so far that it will go or work. Cows are the other half so you can't discount them.

Now for the dystocia born dead 65lb. bull calf that you keep mentioning.  This is NOT the normal birth weight for ANY Dexters.  I have never had a calf born or die at birth and NONE born at that weight..  Are their other cases of a 65lb dystocia calf that you can mention? That happen on a regular basis?  Otherwise this comment is meaningless, again because it is not the norm or in the realm of thing that happen with linebred polled bulls.

[wvdexters]

I hate for this thread to turn into another "chondro debate". There have been so many, on here and other forums, facebook ... Lots of "wheel spinning", "mud slinging". But nothing really accomplished, just dirty hands and dirty faces.

Perhaps something a little different with the New Year - Pace and a sense of humor.

Barb, I think I totally agree with your comment on how you don't approve of the term "chondro carrier". I've been giving this a lot of thought lately and like you I don't believe it is the best identifying term either. It doesn't really fit the situation exactly does it. While it is true that these animals do "carry" one copy of the chondro gene; the affects of the chondro gene on them themselves is quite evident. To differing degrees in different animals; but yes the differences are there and are evident for all to see. (Not quite what I think of as being a "carrier" in other situations. In my mind I picture a "carrier of something" more as a case where an individual shows little to no outward signs and isn't discovered until appropriate testing is done or at the birth of offspring showing signs of the condition.

I like the term "Dwarf". Simple, easy to understand, and you get a quick "visual" when you read or hear the term. That is why I used it in my post.

[legendrockranch]

Appreciate you comments WV.
What some people don't realize is that at one of the AGMs I got up and spoke about genetic defects and how it might be handled and what other breed organizations deal with it. I came in with a 4 in stack of paper that folks could look through. I also took a survey on one of the boards asking Dexter owners what their thoughts were, that too was included.  The Grand Champion cow that year was a beautiful red Chondro carrier cow that was owned by Brenda Stringham. I asked Brenda if I could use her cow as an example when I spoke, she said yes. My whole point was that she was a fine example of a chondro carrier.
I don't have any problems with carriers. What I would like to see the breed association take a stand on is testing of all carrier/non-carrier for Chondro or PHA and those results posted.  Also an explanation on the effects good & bad.  Proper breeding practices should be part of the equation also, again this goes for both PHA & Chondro.
Perhaps if this was done hollyrockranch wouldn't have such a had time finding what she's looking for in Washington.

[lakeportfarms]

Actually, here is an AI bull from a well known breeder, homozygous polled, and the information about him straight from the owners' website advertising him for sale:

We’re so excited to have ******** as herdsire and have been extremely pleased with his calves so far. Average birth weight has been 58 lbs.

So, if you take a bell curve with an AVERAGE weight of 58 lbs. there are certain to be calves in the 65 lb. and up size range.  And keep in mind there is no predictability ahead of time...you don't know which cow, or when they are going to appear, but when they do, it's a problem.  Perhaps calves that size are not a problem with larger Dexters such as yours, but for the smaller Dexters such as the ones many of us raise, and that Kirk advocates and is breeding towards, it's a recipe for a lot of time spent watching a heifer or cow for calving signs, vet bills, probable c-sections or lost calves and cows.

I have a very small chondro heifer.  She had basically reached her mature height and weight (she sure hasn't grown in the past 3 years).  I made a deliberate choice to breed her to Mike, knowing the small size and low birthweight calf that would result provided she didn't have a bulldog.  If she did have a bulldog, it wasn't likely to pose the same risk that having a 35 lb or more calf would have on her.  To me, it was worth the risk, and she successfully delivered a very nice little bull calf (also a chondro) 9 months later.  He was 24 lbs.  She was bred back within 2 months.  She calved about a month prior to Debbie, the much larger chondro heifer who had the 65 lb. bull calf that died.  We had purchased just after she had been bred, who was linebred back to her father.  It took Debbie over a day to get up, and over 8 months to calve back (4 months in isolation and 4 months with the bull), and for 3-4 months following this monster bull calf that died, she would frequently show signs of extreme discomfort, arched back, off her feed, etc...despite being on antibiotics, banamine, and dexamethasone to help her heal.  By the time she was finally bred back, the other little heifer (cow) was only a couple of months from calving again(this time bred to a small non-carrier bull).

This is why I have very strong opinions about the upward trends of calving weights.  I have heard of a number of other difficult births, c-sections, and lost calves from similar circumstances.  One breeder I know last year had 2 c-sections out of 10 calves from a homozygous polled bull.   Again, if your cows are big, maybe not a problem, but if you're selecting smaller sized heifers or cows for your herd with these odds there WILL be problems sooner or later.  Of course because it's not as dramatic looking as a bulldog calf it doesn't receive all the attention, but it's far less avoidable and predictable than simply avoiding breeding two carriers together.

[lakeportfarms]

Good points Karrie. I'll try to use the term "Dwarf" more often. How's the little guy doing? We'd love some current photos!

Hans

[Deleted]

I have a polled cow who calves in the 50s every time. even though my bull does not throw that big of calves on any of my others. So far it has not been an issue for her. If she was bread to a bull that had the same tendency to large calves It likely could be a problem. The ones I have seen her calve. It does take her a little longer and it looks as though she has to push a lot harder. I think the polled head shape is also a factor in that.  Most of mine calve in the 40s. The smallest calf I have had was 30#.

[legendrockranch]

Jan 12, 2015 18:18:19 GMT lakeportfarms said:

 I have heard of a number of other difficult births, c-sections, and lost calves from similar circumstances.  One breeder I know last year had 2 c-sections out of 10 calves from a homozygous polled bull.   Again, if your cows are big, maybe not a problem, but if you're selecting smaller sized heifers or cows for your herd with these odds there WILL be problems sooner or later.  

I know who that bull is and even an average birth weight of 58lb is to big for me. However, even if you are working on a bell curve 65lbs is NOT the average.
This is the first that I am hearing that the cow you owned that had a 65lb calf was a chondro carrier. Maybe being on better forage at you place had something to do with the weight of the calf. It surely had nothing to do with being a linebred polled cow being bred back to her father, not unless there is a genetic defect involved.

Once again I have been breeding going on 14 years and NEVER had a calf born dead at birth, nor a C-section having to be done.  My girls are not overly large or small,, just the right size for me and at the right body score just before calving, I think my breeding program speaks for itself. By the way I also linebreed and my bulls are homo polled.  You are hearing it from my mouth not hearsay from what you have said.

[lakeportfarms]

Jan 12, 2015 19:09:25 GMT legendrockranch said:

Jan 12, 2015 18:18:19 GMT lakeportfarms said:

 I have heard of a number of other difficult births, c-sections, and lost calves from similar circumstances.  One breeder I know last year had 2 c-sections out of 10 calves from a homozygous polled bull.   Again, if your cows are big, maybe not a problem, but if you're selecting smaller sized heifers or cows for your herd with these odds there WILL be problems sooner or later.  

I know who that bull is and even an average birth weight of 58lb is to big for me. However, even if you are working on a bell curve 65lbs is NOT the average.
This is the first that I am hearing that the cow you owned that had a 65lb calf was a chondro carrier. Maybe being on better forage at you place had something to do with the weight of the calf. It surely had nothing to do with being a linebred polled cow being bred back to her father, not unless there is a genetic defect involved.

Once again I have been breeding going on 14 years and NEVER had a calf born dead at birth, nor a C-section having to be done.  My girls are not overly large or small,, just the right size for me and at the right body score just before calving, I think my breeding program speaks for itself. By the way I also linebreed and my bulls are homo polled.  You are hearing it from my mouth not hearsay from what you have said.

It's not hearsay when you hear it out of the mouths of the breeder, which is the case with my descriptions above.  Three people I personally spoke with, not hearsay.
Furthermore, I didn't say 65 lbs. was the average, however if you take the standard deviation from 58 lb. average, you're going to have some 65 lb. calves.  Sure you'll also have some 50 lb. calves, but you don't know which cow (or heifer) is going to throw the big one, so you have to be diligent and watch for every calving.  Personally, I'd rather show up at the farm in the morning and find a new calf in the stall.  But at the same time, I'm not interested in big (for the breed) cows that can handle larger calving weights.  Mike threw 30 lb. average with Dexters, but as low as 24 lbs, and as high as 40 lbs., with the highest weights being the non-chondro bull calves out of larger cows, which is relative...some Dexter breeders would call them small.  Mike was bred to Angus and Herefords, and produced 50-60 lb calves out of those breeds.

Our cows are in good body condition, but they are not fat.  I don't personally think it's healthy for them to carry any more than a BCS 6, and Debbie was probably not even a 5 when she calved.  In fact I attribute some of the lower calving weight to the fact we don't overfeed our cows.  It is common knowledge that line breeding passes on the genetic traits, good or bad, of the sire.  Well high birth weight is one of the bad, it's not a genetic defect, just a genetic predisposition, probably inherited from a recent introgression of a larger breed that has been doubled up through breeding daughter back to the sire.  By the way, Debbie's last bull calf was 40 lbs., bred to Timber, whom I would describe as an average size Dexter bull (45" at 8 years old)

This has gotten off topic, so I'm ending it here.  Sorry to the original poster.

[legendrockranch]

Hans, here is a small portion of your post from above " the much larger chondro heifer who had the 65 lb. bull calf that died".

I have taken the liberty of going back to the original thread on another forum to read and understand this situation a littler bit more.

The calf that died you mentioned in that thread weighed 60lbs (no matter what still to large).   Why is everything always blamed on the bull.  The chondro heifer was also bred at to young of an age by the breeder you bought her from. You had actually thought of giving her a lutalize shot.  There are a few other details you left out.  If you like I will post a link to the 4 pages of discussions the forum had.  So once again putting all the blame on a homo polled bull is not the total picture.

[Donlin Stud]

Jan 12, 2015 16:28:10 GMT genebo said:

Thank goodness for everyone who takes it on themselves to keep these darling little Dexters, with their friendly personalities. They reward us in so many ways. Without them, there would be a hole in my soul.

How beautifully said and reflective of how the rest of us feel

Thanks Gene

[lakeportfarms]

Jan 12, 2015 20:28:34 GMT legendrockranch said:

Hans, here is a small portion of your post from above " the much larger chondro heifer who had the 65 lb. bull calf that died".

I have taken the liberty of going back to the original thread on another forum to read and understand this situation a littler bit more.

The calf that died you mentioned in that thread weighed 60lbs (no matter what still to large).   Why is everything always blamed on the bull.  The chondro heifer was also bred at to young of an age by the breeder you bought her from. You had actually thought of giving her a lutalize shot.  There are a few other details you left out.  If you like I will post a link to the 4 pages of discussions the forum had.  So once again putting all the blame on a homo polled bull is not the total picture.

Nice of you to take the effort to go back and read it....

We considered giving her a lute shot because she was bred to such a large bull and were concerned about a large calf, which was born out.  However, because her mother was listed as NON-CHONDRO in her ADCA pedigree page we had to test both her and her mother, and we didn't have a non-chondro bull at the time to breed them.  At that time it was TAMU.  It took TWO months to get back the report from them.  The window to lute her was past and we decided to risk it and not terminate it.  Debbie calved at 23 months, and she was as I said a fairly large carrier cow.  She still is.  The size doesn't come from her mother, who is 35" tall.  Sorry, but I fault the homo polled bull both for Debbie's size, and the exceptionally large calf she had when line bred back to her father.  End of story.

[lakeportfarms]

Jan 12, 2015 20:28:34 GMT legendrockranch said:

Hans, here is a small portion of your post from above " the much larger chondro heifer who had the 65 lb. bull calf that died".

I have taken the liberty of going back to the original thread on another forum to read and understand this situation a littler bit more.

The calf that died you mentioned in that thread weighed 60lbs (no matter what still to large).   Why is everything always blamed on the bull.  The chondro heifer was also bred at to young of an age by the breeder you bought her from. You had actually thought of giving her a lutalize shot.  There are a few other details you left out.  If you like I will post a link to the 4 pages of discussions the forum had.  So once again putting all the blame on a homo polled bull is not the total picture.

Nice of you to take the effort to go back and read it....

We considered giving her a lute shot because she was bred to such a large bull and were concerned about a large calf, which was born out.  However, because her mother was listed as NON-CHONDRO in her ADCA pedigree page we had to test both her and her mother, and we didn't have a non-chondro bull at the time to breed them.  At that time it was TAMU.  It took TWO months to get back the report from them.  The window to lute her was past and we decided to risk it and not terminate it.  Debbie calved at 23 months, and she was as I said a fairly large carrier cow.  She still is.  The size doesn't come from her mother, who is 35" tall.  Sorry, but I fault the homo polled bull both for Debbie's size, and the exceptionally large calf she had when line bred back to her father.  End of story.