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Post by legendrockranch on Jan 14, 2015 5:19:59 GMT
WV I'm glad you see humor at a fellow Dexter breeders inexperience and at there expense. Hopefully this will never happen to you.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jan 14, 2015 13:05:21 GMT
Wow. Being the beginning of the year and all, I have people asking me what are my new year resolutions? I'd never really made them before, but figured I might as well try with something small this year. I tend to be closed minded sometimes. So I thought it's been 20 years since the last polled mutation, and why not try and help those poor polled Dexter breeders find some new polled mutations to fit into their pedigrees! So when that ad came to my attention, I was only trying to help. After all the ADCA is the now the "world's largest registry of Dexter cattle", and there are tons more Dexters now than in the early 90's, so if there was a chance for a new polled mutation the odds would favor coming from right in our own backyard and when the Dexter population is at the greatest it's ever been.
Based on the responses, it looks like my new year's resolution is a complete flop. Too bad, if it had been successful, I was already considering for next year refusing to breed specifically for the lethal chondrodysplasia gene, and eating all my chondro bulls.
Well, since I've failed I guess I can also cancel my brand new gym membership. On the bright side, the freed up funds from the cancelled membership will allow me to take up smoking and drinking so I have some resolutions available for next year since I failed so miserably at my Dexter related resolutions.
So....Since I'm back to my old self now, I do wonder why there was such doubt (among the most ardent of polled breeders here) about the possibility of a polled calf coming from horned parents. Isn't that what your herds are totally based upon? Cripe, even Gene of all people, said that the parents should be DNA tested and the heifer checked for parentage to determine if this was the case, and should be the basis for futher parentage verification discussion. Talk about an open mind!
Barb, you sure moved mountains with all of your contacts in the ADCA to let that breeder know it was impossible to have a polled calf out of horned parents. The horned Dexter sure could have used the likes of you back in the mid 90's! You and Judy would have been BFF. (I'm pretty sure that's short for best friends forever, but that's what I meant if it isn't)
It was not intended to make fun of the breeder in any way. They actually looked like very nice horned Dexters, and I liked the bull a lot from the photo. And if this helps to sell his heifer (polled or not) that's great.
I wonder, does the criticism I got for not contacting the breeder myself and telling him that horned parents can't have polled calves give me permission to tell prospective buyers about polled genetics from back in the 90's? That would be the consistent position to take after all...
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Post by emgiger on Jan 14, 2015 13:23:50 GMT
Hans,
If you are trying to make a point regarding polled genetics regarding mutations that is entirely acceptable. Doing so at someone else's expense is not. Furthermore, your tone seems spiteful, not what I am used to from you. I hope you will reconsider your approach in the future so that we can have reasonable discussions about the subject going forward.
Eileen
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jan 14, 2015 15:51:19 GMT
Eileen, I linked to the ad and merely was posing the question regarding a polled calf out of horned parents. I had said I didn't think the seller was being deceptive, and even commented that the heifer had polled characteristics given her age, head shape and no little curly hair tufts where the horns start to pop out.
It was all in good fun and designed to make one think until Barb escalated it and called me a jerk among other things. Rather touchy about it don't you think? She has no problem dishing it out herself, as evidenced by her comments about Gene and Olga's board. Yes, it has become pretty quiet over there and everybody gets along, just as everybody got along well here on Judy's site until Kirk and Barb showed up. I saw the snark by Carol D about sending that Taurus guy here to this site to stir things up. I guess Kirk was sent in his place.
I have polled Dexters too. And I have horned Dexters with Saltaire Platinum in their pedigrees. Some of them are very nice ones, with great conformation and nice temperaments. I'd just like some people to stop and think for a bit about how such a heavy concentration of one bull's genetics have had on certain breeders' herds here in the U.S. with a little sarcasm. I'm sorry if Barb doesn't know how to play along.
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Post by legendrockranch on Jan 14, 2015 16:33:50 GMT
Barb knows how to play along as you can see from my first comment regarding the ad. YOU just don't know when to stop. You know very well why I am here. Apparently you want to keep me here since you posted my website again. All it will take is to remove my website and I'm out of here. The balls in your court.
Again for those just now reading this it is not the fact that my website was put up, it was the intent to discredit another breeder using my website to do it.
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Post by genebo on Jan 14, 2015 17:06:25 GMT
aren't you banded from Olga's forum? Since that happened the forum has run smooth.
Sorry, Barb, but "banded" is what you should do to bulls that are not fit to be used as breeding stock. A Freudian slip? Do you wish that I had been banded?
I'm truly sorry that you have found it necessary to come here to stir up hate and discontent. It's your own fault for driving away all who would not buy into your mantra on your home board.
Go argue with Kirk. You two might stir up a nuclear meltdown!
I'm glad that the craigslist poster got away without harm as a result of you turning him in. He has pretty cattle. I love their horns.
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Post by jamshundred on Jan 14, 2015 17:20:58 GMT
You guys know very well you would miss Barb and Kirk!
Barb and Kirk have both been good for ME. Both take me outside my little box at times and channel my tunnel vision.
They are no more or less protective of their little corner of the Dexter world than I am of mine. That twain shell never meet alas.
Judy
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Post by lonecowhand on Jan 14, 2015 17:34:44 GMT
Happy 2015 everyone!
The New Year is only 14 days old. It's been 20 years since the Immaculate Inception of Polled in the breed, you would think the ammo would be running low by now! LOL.
I have some confusion about the role of the Associations as a result of this thread. I have been told that the associations are not authorities, but approved breeding registries. Does the ADCA have any authority over what someone sells or advertises? The "may be able to be registered" does not seem to be enough to call out the pedigree police!
I asked on a thread once who gave these associations credibility or authority, but I'm still uncertain of where their authority starts or ends. More so now.
Anyone help me out?
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Post by genebo on Jan 14, 2015 19:59:11 GMT
In some countries, including Canada, breed associations are government regulated and the associations are responsible to the government.
In the US, this is not so. The only thing the government gets involved in is the financial aspect. To save having to pay taxes on the money they collect, associations can register as a non-profit organization. This brings into play some regulations about how the money should be spent and requires financial reporting.
Otherwise, it's free to do almost anything it wants to do.
Anyone can start a new breed association. There are many that have been started. There are some that have disappeared. You are familiar with a lot of freely formed associations, if you will stop and think. The PTA, all sorts of athletic associations, some political associations. The main reason for having an association is to provide some services for the members.
A registry may or may not be a part of a cattle association. It can be called a herd book. It is kept to record the ancestry of the cattle that are registered. A registry can be minimal, showing just the parentage, like a family tree, or it can be maximal, like the big beef and dairy registries, that record so many traits of the cattle registered within.
The scope of a registry is set by the maintainer of the registry. It can accept as little or as much information as it deems appropriate.
There are two associations that maintain a registry for Dexter cattle (ADCA & PDCA) and one pure registry (LDCR). The LDCR registry is different from the other two in that it is only for the cattle. There are no people members. It is not an association.
There are more associations for Dexter cattle that do not maintain a registry. States (Texas, Missouri and more) and Districts can and do form their own associations, to provide services to their members. The Ohio Valley Dexter Breeders Association serves a region and accepts like-minded members from outside their region.
An association has no power of enforcement over its members beyond expulsion. The members of an association have no the power over the association beyond any that the association gives them.
An Association may charge a membership fee and collect annual dues. Both the PDCA & ADCA do this. A registry may charge a registration fee for entering a registrant into the registry. All three Dexter registries do this. The fees vary.
Each registry has its own rules for qualification as a registrant.
The PDCA requires proof that both parents of the applicant are previously registered Dexters. The parents may be registered with any of the three registries.
The ADCA also requires proof that both parents of the applicant are previously registered with the ADCA or another association. There are requirements that the ADCA asks for, that each new heifer applicant sire have a DNA genotype on file prior to registration. A new bull applicant must supply a genotype or record of genotype, plus his sire of record must have a genotype on file.
The LDCR provides a prepaid form for genotyping and parentage verification with payment of the registration fee. All applicants must have both parents be previously registered Dexters. If either or both parents have genotyps on file, they will be used to provide parentage verification. All registrants will therefore have a genotype, and if possible, will be parenatge verified.
Once a year, each of the associations holds a meeting where members get a chance to mingle, and show and sell cattle. The association's Board of Directors will hold a meeting then to address proposed actions.
There are some other benefits available from an association. Youth programs, classification programs, breed guidelines (none of our associations has an enforceable breed standard) and newsletters. In theory, the association will spend all the money it takes in for the benefit of its members, every year. Watch for your association's annual report to see how well it does.
There is lots more to it than that, but the gist in the US is that our breed associations are largely unregulated.
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