Not done with dun

[jamshundred]

Since being re-energized by the nitwits on the ADCA board who insisted on publishing an article they were informed was factually incorrect. . . .  .I've been doing lots of research.  Getting closer and closer to making the case the dun was not a modern introgression.   It is already a FACT that Grinstead Plover was not the sole source of dun in the Dexter breed, nor did it originate with the Grinstead herd. There are three and looks to be four different animals in the Grinstead herd that carried dun, none with a common ancestor.  Looks like Sparr nero was a likely dun carrier, perhaps Ratcliffe's Negro's Manager. I am finding more and more animals listed as "red" with names that sound more golden or tannish than red.  

I am beginning to wonder.  It seems more than possible to me they registered early duns as red cattle.   I suspect the early duns were the reddish color I was always used to seeing in the US herd.  Than one day I saw a photo of a light colored cow in the midst of a herd of black  Dexters in a photo and discovered later it was a dun and not another breed as I had originally thought, and began to see more and more photos of brownish/blondish colored duns.  Was it this lighter shade of dun in the Rutherford herd that created the first awareness of the dun color?   The dun had to be there earlier and earlier breeders had to have seen it and discussed the color variation from the red.  Does anyone remember seeing anything in early articles?  Or letters between breeders?

If there is anyone out there who shares an interest in the dun research. .. . let me know so I can pass along the tidbits that turn up.  

Judy

[jamshundred]

BS watcher is offended that I used the term "nitwits". Oh dear. let's see if we can come up with a more descriptive term for a group of folks who have assigned themselves to be LEADERS, who would publish an article that was full of rumor, supposition, and errors, all of which they were advised in advance. . . .. unquestionably destructive to the traditional bloodlines in general and the Woodmagic herd descendent breeders in the US in particular, and done so "supposedly" for the sole purpose of manipulating their membership, ( though they also were firing a volley over the bow of the preservation boat). . . . . . Hmmm. I thought of one! ! ! Ooops. I would never type it in public. It is not ladylike.

Judy

[Deleted]

I have said it before that I believe many of those early red dexters were dun. The answer I always got was you can tell the difference. Yes now that we know they are different and what to look for. If I take someone off the street that knows nothing about dexters and ask them if my reddish looking duns are red. most will say they are. If they are so easy to tell apart why was it that so many people in the US thought they had reds until they were informed it was dun.

[cascade]

Remember that "Dun" really isn't a pigment.

It is simply a pair of broken TYRP1 genes.
A working TYRP1 gene is a protein that acts as a catalyst to help eumelanin (black pigment) finish "cooking" to look black.
Two broken TYRP1 genes means the cow can't finish catalyzing the eumelanin, so the black pigment looks faded brown instead of black.

Since many black cows can still have a lot of mostly-hidden red pigment (pheomelanin), if their black pigment is faded because of the lack of TYRP1, then they will have a lot of red pigment showing through their faded eumelanin. We'd call these cows "Dun" but they may have a lot of red pigment, and look very red.

Also, since many red cows (especially E+) have a lot black pigment, if those cows have two broken TYRP1 genes, then their "black" pigment (eumelanin) will be faded brown (dun). We'd still call them "Red" because of their genotype, even though they might mostly have a dun appearance.

It's also possible that there is more than one version of the broken TYRP1 gene in Dexters. Just like we've found two versions of the broken ACAN gene that causes Chondro-dwarfism. The test for typical Dexter "Dun" might not pick up this other possible version of "Dun". Nearly every sort of animal has cases of broken tyrp1 genes causing "black" (eumelanin) pigment to look brown instead of black.




PS. Concerning the ADCA board, All Boards of All Organizations are made up of humans... and all us humans have flaws... If you don't like the ADCA board, you can run for the thankless job yourself, or you can get someone else to run for it and vote for them. I don't understand spending decades of ones life bashing a board of directors. No board is ever perfect. I think the ADCA board does a pretty decent job compared to all the other Boards of Directors that I've dealt with in many other organizations. I've never agreed with 100% of the decisions that ANY board has made... But they've ALWAYS listened to my ideas and suggestions and feedback. I just thank my lucky stars that I don't have to do the thankless job myself.

[Donlin Stud]

This is one of our 2014 dun babies at the age of 3-4 days.

He is from dun coloured parents of which only one carries red, the other does not.

This photo is near exact to what his colour was. It was chosen from many as we tried to capture that purple-highlight.
He is standing in full mid day sun.

In the shade, he looked black except his nose colour was still a purpley-black colour. His eyes looked black in colour as well, not the baby-blues we always see.

He was this strange colouring until 4 weeks of age when he began to 'lighten' coming up to a dirty and dark dun colouring......and just as we thought he may become 'normal' in his dun colouring, he began to darken and quickly over the last couple of weeks, and is now displaying that undertone/ shading so clear in the photo below that we have never ever seen before.

Our other 9 x dun coloured Dexs are beginning to lighten in their dun shades as autumn takes hold and their coats are thickening. This is what we expect.



The above photo was taken 4 days ago. The calf will be 6 mths old tomorrow. (Sorry he is being patted by a visitor so thought it best to blur the face of the human. It was the only photo of many taken that shows his colouring as we see it in person.)

We have found this boy's colouring extremely puzzling from the very first day and have tended to 'hide' him away until we have answers. But as I read the posts above and then look at this photo - yep, I can now see how duns could very well have been deemed reds.

Our other duns (and those we have seen elsewhere in Australia) tend to be those described by Judy above: ranging in shades of dark dirty browns to very light browny-beige blonde colourings.
Absolutely no way could they ever be mistaken as a red. Looksee at my avatar - thats pretty normal dun shading. BTW: Those two calves are half-siblings to this guy via the sire.

Except this boy...................


So what has possibly happened here?

Has anyone ever had a dun calf look that black with purpley coloured highlights before? And where the heck did that reddish undertone come from?






PS: Happy for post to be moved if in the wrong thread

[cascade]

Mar 12, 2015 2:32:31 GMT Donlin Stud said:

Has anyone ever had a dun calf look that black with purpley coloured highlights before? And where the heck did that reddish undertone come from?

There are only two pigments in all animals... Pheomelanin (red-yellow) and Eumelanin (black-brown)

Most all blacks animals still produce a lot of red pigment, some more than others.  The black pigment typically overwhelms the red pigment.  But some blacks have a lot of reddish tint to them.

There are a good number of loci (gene locations) in animals that have influences on color.  We mostly only pay attention to two or three of these in Dexters.  These gene loci call for a little more red, or a little more black, and they can also influence the shade and intensity and even alter the tones.  Folks in the Texas Longhorn world spend a lot of time naming all the various coloring and shading of cattle, since their breed has some of the most color variation.

Do you know your calf's color genotype?  Is he ED/E+  b/b  ?....  Might be interesting to have him tested.

I'd guess that if he didn't have the dun genes, he would have been a black with a ton of underlying red pigment.  The dun genes have faded the black just enough to let the red show through, which would make him sorta purple.  But then since the black pigment didn't get "Fixed" due to the lack of TYRP1, it eventually fades to lighter brown, letting a ton of red show through.







 

[Donlin Stud]

Mar 12, 2015 3:44:05 GMT cascade said:

Do you know your calf's color genotype?  Is he ED/E+  b/b  ?....  Might be interesting to have him tested.

We have always completely tested each of our Dexs where By Inheritance status cannot be determined. The calf will be either ED/e b/b or ED/ED b/b. His mother carries recessive red.

Following Judy's advice, the photos and request has been sent to UCD so will post here what they have to say.

We know that all is possible but to actually see a calf that is so near black - and then for us, now darkening when the other duns are lightening and to have such a strong reddish shading/undertone is just bewildering.

We have duns who carry wild red, we have duns who carry recessive red, we have duns who don’t carry red at all but never have we had a calf look like this.

Mind you we have had a black calf look very interesting for a while. He is ED/E+ B/b.

Bailey as a youngster:

[genebo]

Remember that DNA testing of cattle for specific traits is a relatively new addition to our bag of tricks. It is not very well understood at this time, although recent years have given us some new tools and a little better understanding.

Dexter traits are probably the least well understood. They are such a small herd that there is not a great deal of interest in doing research. Neither of the American associations has commissioned any studies with reputable researchers. That is an area we should be pushing for. We pay a lot of dues and fees. Surely some of it could be spent in a productive manner for better understanding of our breed.

Color studies have been done in some breeds, with the results being transposed to Dexters as if it is the same for all breeds. This is not the case, for color is one of those things that works in a unique manner in Dexters. Take E+ wild for example. In other breeds the homozygous state may be associated with different colors and patterns, but in Dexters it always produces red.

Up until just recently, it was often said that Dexter dun was unique to our breed. Now that has changed.

Much of the information you can find on the internet about cattle colors is either out of date, was gathered by unqualified people, or was never checked to see how it applied to Dexters. We are in a rapidly changing state, as far as Dexter coat colors are concerned.

Judy is devoting a lot of effort into tracing the origins of dun. Maybe if the source(s) of dun in Dexters is revealed, it will help us understand how the different shades and patterns of dun are produced.

I have noticed some other traits that correspond to dun color in Dexters. Coat texture is one. I have owned and have visited other dun Dexters that had a distinctive pattern of smooth and rough coat. I have never seen the same pattern in a red or black Dexter.

Most of my Dexters have been black. As calves, they have shown coat colors that were far different from their adult coat colors. Yet DNA testing did not reveal the obvious connections. In other words, a calf that was a bright dun color (Bultaco) grew to be a black adult. DNA testing revealed that he did not carry dun or red. Where did the calf color come from?

Today, Caethru Inion is a dark red calf, 3 months old. She is Ed/E+ B/B. She will grow to be black, like her mother. Her mother, who is also Ed/E+ B/B, has a spot in the middle of her back that my hand can cover, that is red. We have a lot to learn.

[Deleted]

Donna,
We have not had a dun born that dark. But the picture you posted of him a little older we have several that red and darker red. I will also say no one in my herd carries red. So that is not what is influencing it.

[cascade]

Mar 12, 2015 16:22:22 GMT @dexterfarm said:

Donna,
We have not had a dun born that dark. But the picture you posted of him a little older we have several that red and darker red. I will also say no one in my herd carries red. So that is not what is influencing it.

Dexters that "Don't Carry Red"  can still produce tons of Pheomelanin (red pigment)

Not carrying red, simply means that the animal doesn't have a gene that reduces black pigment.

[cascade]

Mar 12, 2015 15:07:35 GMT genebo said:

 Take E+ wild for example. In other breeds the homozygous state may be associated with different colors and patterns, but in Dexters it always produces red.

E+ in dexters can produce some very patterned black and red dexters like this dexter cow (but it is not very common). 



When an animal is E+, then it allows alleles at the Agouti Locus to play with shading by controlling the amount of pheomelanin (red pigment) vs eumelanin (black pigment) in various places on the animal's body.   There are even some possible alleles (gene choices) at the agouti locus that can make an animal entirely solid black even though the animal is E+E+..... that is called Agouti Black....  It's possible that the Agouti Black gene is floating around in dexters at a very low frequency, but would only exhibit in its homozygous state along with the animal being homozygous E+E+

Another locus that can control black/red patterning in E+ animals is the Brindle Locus.  Here's an E+ dexter that also has the brindle gene, making her looked tiger striped.  The brindle gene (Br) is at the brindle locus.

[genebo]

All that comes straight from the Longhorn studies. They have been more extensively studied for coat variations than any other breed. It would be a mistake to accredit the Longhorn traits to Dexters. A lot of the loci that influence patterns in other breeds do not vary in Dexters.

It would be interesting to know the pedigree of the funny looking cow with mixed coloration. What other breeds are in her background? I assume it's one of yours, since it would be a breach of etiquette to make an example of someone else's cow.

All that I write is intended to apply only to fullblooded Dexters. They are so unique in so many ways. Influences that come from outcrossing with other breeds are unpredictable.

[Donlin Stud]

Mar 12, 2015 15:07:35 GMT genebo said:

I have noticed some other traits that correspond to dun color in Dexters. Coat texture is one. I have owned and have visited other dun Dexters that had a distinctive pattern of smooth and rough coat. I have never seen the same pattern in a red or black Dexter.

Spot on Gene Having the balance of the three colours as we do, the dun coloured Dexters are 'unique' in their coat texture that we also do not see in black or red Dexs.

The other noticeable difference is the changing of colour through the seasons.
Our blacks tend to stay the shade they are. Our reds will deepen and lighten slightly but not to the extent of our Duns.

Judy's research into Dun is of great interest to our stud because of these observations

[Donlin Stud]

Mar 12, 2015 20:53:57 GMT genebo said:

All that I write is intended to apply only to fullblooded Dexters. They are so unique in so many ways. Influences that come from outcrossing with other breeds are unpredictable.

And I think this is where we have more trouble in 'sorting' some issues or differences out.
We cant class any Aussie Dexter as fullblood............but it sure makes for interesting topics such as this calf and his colouring.
He does have Angus noted back in his pedigree

[genebo]

A few years back I made the aquaintance of a man known locally as Mr. Jersey, due to his long-time involvement with Jersey cattle. He liked to tell me about how people had ruined the Jersey breed by outcrossing. He disliked Dexters because so many people had used them to make mini- Jerseys out of otherwise purebred Jerseys. He disliked Angus because Angus was the local farmer's choice to breed to their purebred Jerseys to get a polled offspring.

He claimed to be able to spot the Jerseys with Angus outcrossing by the black highlights in their color patterns. Dexters made a much blacker calf. In many cases, the calf was all black.

I had a Dexter/Jersey heifer here that was the reverse: Mama was a fullblooded dun Dexter while Papa was a cream colored Jersey. The calf looked exactly half way between the two breeds in all but size. It was short, like a Dexter. It's coat had an overall dun coloring, but with lots of patches of black. Here is that calf with her mama.

Note that the black is not just on the face. This heifer is now 5 years old and is the same color.

Also note the rough textured coat on Mama.

[cascade]

Mar 12, 2015 20:53:57 GMT genebo said:

 It would be a mistake to accredit the Longhorn traits to Dexters. A lot of the loci that influence patterns in other breeds do not vary in Dexters.

All that I write is intended to apply only to fullblooded Dexters. They are so unique in so many ways. Influences that come from outcrossing with other breeds are unpredictable.

1.  What you are calling "Longhorn" color traits are simply generic cattle coloration traits.. in fact, they're actually generic mammal coloration traits common to many mammals including dogs, cows, and mice.  The colors are famous in longhorns because longhorn breeders are allowed to breed for every color under the sun, so when they encounter a new color, they highlight it, while most other breeds try to restrict and hide those various colors and patterns.    Here's the brindle gene pattern found in dexters, mice, and dogs.



2.  There is no such thing as a "full-blood" dexter.  ALL Dexters come from tons of other breeds in the relatively recent 100-200 years.   You can bet that there are TONS of same genes that are in longhorns and angus and jersey and herefords, ect.. in dexters... but at different frequencies.  No one has ever worked to scrub those hidden color genes out of dexters, so of course they are there (but at low frequencies).  

3.  Rank amateurs always seem to jump to the idea that a seemingly unique color must be a sign of a recent outcross, because those amateurs don't understand genetics.  But, folks with some basic genetics knowledge can tell you that many colors can hide for eons especially if they are polygenetic  (alleles at two or more loci, working in conjunction with each other to form a color).   

4. The E+ Dexter photo's I posted up above in my previous posting, come from some of the best and largest purebred Dexter herds on the planet (with lots of red including E+ ) ....   and those color genes have been reported in a good number of purebred Dexters.  But, when a person has just a tiny handful of mostly black dexters as many dexter breeders have, they aren't likely to get much experience with color genetics.   




PS. We don't have a lot of color variation in the cattle on our farm because we mostly have true reds (e/e), or blacks and they don't show much variation.... We've NEVER had any other cattle but 100% PUREBRED registered dexters on our farm.  How about you? 

[genebo]

You need to learn a new trick, other than repeating the old fiction that all Dexters are outcrossed. That's not true. From the time that the Dexter breed was established until the present, there are some that have never been outcrossed. Legacy qualified is the name for such American Dexters.

In other countries, other standards were applied. In England, where they formerly had fullblooded Dexters, they elected to permit outcrossing. There aren't many fullblooded Dexters remaining in England as a result.

The American Dexter associations have never permitted outcrossing. Anyone who followed the rules of the associtions would still be raising fullblooded Dexters today. Many people did follow the rules and do raise fullblooded Dexters.

It was an act of trickery that brought outcrossed genetics from England into the American herd. Nobody but a simpleton would seriously claim that the outcrossed imports were fullblooded. The only claims made that they were pure Dexters were made by people wanting to justify their decision to raise that type of cattle. You know that your cattle are not pure. You seem to think that you can justify continuing to raise impure Dexters and register them as pure by trying to cast the same sort of aspersions upon the fullblooded Dexters that remain.

It isn't so. Take a trip back into history with the pedigree of a Legacy Qualified American Dexter. You will find an unbroken string of registrations leading back to the foundation animals that formed the Dexter breed. There are no records that extend back prior to the establishment of the herd book of the original Dexter and Kerry Cattle Club. Any assumptions you make about the ancestors of the foundation animals are pure conjecture on your part. The ancestors of the first American Dexters were not Dexters. They were simply the ancestors of Dexters. Dexters didn't exist back then.

The number of fullblooded Dexters has not necessarily declined. I don't know the exact count of fullblooded Dexters in America. The were always a rare breed and might still be a rare breed if it were not for the influx of outcrossed animals that swelled the registration numbers. That is the majority of all the cattle registered as Dexters today. That is why they are no longer classed as a rare breed.

It's not enough for you to claim that the pictures you post come from some of the best and largest purebred Dexter herds on the planet. That leaves you as the only person alive who knows what you are writing about, and we know not to fall for the stuff you make up.

Tell us which part of the planet these cows come from. Tell us who owns these cattle. Do you know the owners? How did you get the information about the animals DNA test results? Name the DNA tests that were performed on these cows to determine which "alleles at the agouti locus" regulated the color shading of these cows. Bull! You have no such results. If you did, you would post the DNA test results as proof. Again, I don't mean to post what you claim is the result. I mean, post the results. Scan the result sheet in or post a link to the PDF file that contains the results.

Judy has done that for some of her cattle. I have done it for some of my cattle. You haven't. You don't even own the cattle you make the claims about, do you? You don't know whether there really are any DNA test results to back up your claims, do you?

Anybody who bases their expertise upon their own experiences, wants and desires, is a rank amateur. It takes training and dedication to make an expert. No matter how many Goggl searches you do, looking for key phrases, you'll never get to be an expert. Try sitting in on a meeting of true professional geneticists. You wouldn't even be able to follow their jargon.

Take time out to read this book before you make any more claims about someone's cow: www.cabi.org/animalscience/ebook/20143400398 or www.amazon.com/Genetics-Cattle-Cabi-Ruedi-Fries/dp/0851992587

While this book is slightly dated (1999), it does not contain anything wildly wrong. It does contain repeated comparisons of how differently things work in the different cattle breeds. My copy is currently on loan to a local doctor who raises cattle. He was trained for knowledge about humans, and the information does not transfer. I get him to translate the information in the book to a form that I can understand, since I don't have the training that he has.

You may owe Judy an apology for the statement about the best and largest purebred Dexter herds on the planet. Her herd certainly fits the description. Where on this planet would you find a herd to rival hers?

[Donlin Stud]

Mar 13, 2015 1:20:44 GMT cascade said:

There is no such thing as a "full-blood" dexter.  ALL Dexters come from tons of other breeds in the relatively recent 100-200 years

100 years ago = 1915
200 years ago = 1815

Around 1750 a Mr Dexter created this curious breed by selection from the best of the hardy mountain cattle of the area who it is believed to have descended from the predominately black cattle of the early Celts.

And just like many - creation by selection would have seen a closed herd strategy.

Taking this into consideration even with the many variances within the written Dexter breed history, its really hard to fathom how Dexters could have come from "tons of other breeds".

Mar 13, 2015 1:20:44 GMT cascade said:

We've NEVER had any other cattle but 100% PUREBRED registered dexters on our farm.  How about you? 

Casacde you must remember this forum has international members:

Many Dexter breeders in Australia can make the same claim that they have never had any other cattle but 100% PUREBRED registered Dexters.
And we aussies can back this up with DNA parent verification which has been a requirement for registration for over 20 years now.

But we dont have our heads in the sand.

[cascade]

There's a lot of myth in the story of "Mr. Dexter".  There were tons on animals coming into the breed until very late.  If they looked enough like a kerry or dexter or simply looked small, they were thrown into the registry up until the early 1900's.   You can bet that there were all sorts of crossed this and that coming into the breed. 

"There are a number of Dexters and Kerries that show up in the Volume 1 Herd Book without any pedigree (sire unknown, dam unknown, breeder unknown), and they were just accepted as being Dexters or Kerries. These animals were owned by very wealthy people and pre-dated the beginning of any registry. The Dexter and Kerry registry didn't actually start in the US until 1911 and it was "shelved" in 1921 at Ohio State University. Then, there was no US registry for either Dexter or Kerry cattle in the US until 1940, when John Logsdon (Peerless Herd) got it going again with the help of Roy Cook, of the American Milking Shorthorn Association."


The point is that Dexters aren't a pure and polished ancient old isolated breed, instead they are relatively modern breed and they have tons of genes from all sorts of gene pools in them.

Here's some "dexters" in America in 1868, and they didn't even bother to call them "Dexters"....  Notice all the white markings on the female and notice the "DEXTER" bull.  Also notice the calf-friendly udder (not great for milking machines, but perfect for the calf).

[lakeportfarms]

Gene,

The photo of the brindle is from Clive Taylor's herd in England I presume, as it comes from Cliveataylor photobucket account. Doesn't Clive cross his Dexters with Angus for commercial production? I am pretty sure he does pretty extensively.

The photo of the dark red Dexter is taken from the ADCA pedigree page of John Potter bred and owned cow (now deceased). Looks like she only lived a few years. ADCA #017315.

You can easily find where he has grabbed the photos from by right clicking on the photo, and then go to inspect element. The location will be highlighted in the HTML code.
The line art drawing is stored directly on what I presume is Kirk's photobucket page KF1000. If he downloads the photo and then stores it on his photobucket site, you can't really tell where the image is originally from.

[Deleted]

Mar 13, 2015 1:20:44 GMT cascade said:

4. The E+ Dexter photo's I posted up above in my previous posting, come from some of the best and largest purebred Dexter herds on the planet 

I hope you dont really believe this. If so that may answer a lot of questions.

Purebred? I think not

[genebo]

Hans,

Clive didn't register his Dexters after the first few. It costs a lot, he said, and he sold his cattle for beef. He said he got no value from registration.

He began crossing with Angus in order to increase the amount of beef he got from each carcass. He was also concerned about the size of the cuts.

He has stated many times that he was not concerned with purity in his herd.

So much for "one of the best and largest purebred Dexter herds on the planet". That was as big a lie as most of the rest.

I like Clive. I like what he is doing. He is using Dexter blood to give his beef cattle the traits that make Dexter beef so good, while addressing the problems that commercial beef providers must face. His operation is not too far different from my friend's "Dangus" operation here in Virginia.

Clive seems to be friendly and honest. Two traits that our intruder lacks.

[otf]

DO NOT FORGET that Clive was not the least bit concerned about using an Angus bull on Dexter cows. Not so long ago, he'd have been slammed big time for that. It was wrong and still is, in my opinion!

Gale

[cascade]

Rank amateurs always seem to jump to the idea that a seemingly unique color must be a sign of a recent out-cross, because those amateurs don't understand genetics. But, folks with some basic genetics knowledge can tell you that many colors can hide for eons especially if they are polygenetic (alleles at two or more loci, working in conjunction with each other to form a color or pattern).

99.99% of ALL dexter's genes come from other breeds of cattle.   You can bet that even the most "legacy" and "traditional" of Dexters have some surprising hidden genes (including color genes) that have come from all their MANY various non-dexter ancestors. 

Since ALL dexters come from non-dexters, what makes an animal "purebred", is continued selection for traits listed in the Dexter Breed Description, and being recognized by an official registry as being "purebred".

[lonecowhand]

Hypergraphia? Coprolalia? Or just Bull!

[lakeportfarms]

So Kirk, do those two cows you've posted as examples qualify as "selected for traits listed in the Dexter breed description"? I'd guess the brindle one has 2 or 3 generations of Angus crossed with Dexter in her. Yet you call her a E+ Dexter....what about that? Is she a "Dexter" or not?

[Deleted]

I think there has been some confusion here the herd that he was calling the best was not clives but the other cow he posted. I have no problem with clive he was open and honest about his cross breeding and he was not attempting to register them. Yes it is sad though when we loose dexters to a cross breeding program.
yes kirk we realize there can be hidden colors in there for a long time and that many dexters do have a little white in them. But when you are talking about the colors that may exist in our purebred dexters you should not not be using examples of animals that are not purebred dexters.

 

[jamshundred]

Kirk,


Kirk, . . . . . it is the responsibility of the governed to judge those who govern them. It is rare that those governing ever take their own inventory.



The ADCA board has members on there that have served for years and years and years. Over and over. Made horrendous decisions that have had irreversible effect on this breed.  Furthermore, they do not serve without reward.  They do NOT hold themselves accountable to the membership in any way.  They do not record or publish real time minutes. .. . and they do not record or publish the vote on any agenda nor do you even know what  is on the agenda.  Since they do not  hold themselves accountable someone has to!   Nor did you have any say in the agenda to begin with.  The modern boards have taken ALL your rights away.  If that is OK and you are content as a lemming . . . . you can be a lemming . .. .but *I* will never be a lemming.   Members should be paying MORE attention not less. YOUR dues went up. . . . . YOUR cost of transfers and registrations were also increased. Did you get more service for that? Or are you helping to fund the bookkeeping staff for Dr. Cothran since ADCA personnel ( at least one of them is paid a salary) are processing his paperwork and payments. How many members know this? Why are members supporting the Cothran lab?   By the way, you are in the Northwest area.  Did you ever question why your Director was forced to resign in 2013?  If not, why not?

Back to the cows. . . . . Until the early 1990's there was not a single registered Dexter with a pedigree that was not considered "purebred' according to the very weak and entirely man-conceived formula which is well known to be a farce.  Then in the 1990's England, whose herd was already riddled with introgression from the upgrading program. . . caved to certain interests. . . . and let polled in. Who cared?  With all the outcrossing there were polled animals everywhere. There was however strong opposition and in order to get around it. . . . we got. . . .  .the BIG LIE. 

Let me say this clearly so no one misses the point.    SALTAIRE PLATINUM.. . .  .the single source of polled genetics in the US . . . was. . . . . . .  .NOT. . . . 
absolutely, positively. . . . . was .. . . . .NOT.  .. . . . PUREBRED.    He is by all definitions. . .  in all dictionaries. . . a MONGREL.   He is a GRADE bull.  There is not a single soul living on this planet that can give this bull legitimacy.   

Those of us who worship this breed are heartsick at watching it being bred into extinction by a mongrel grade bull.   

Donna, I have never seen a dun calf born in that shade.  *I* believe Kirk is wrong and that the Dexters in spite of, or because of. . . . their connection to dwarfism have genetic traits that are yet to be understood.  I hope you can interest those whose names I gave you to add to their dun research by looking at the DNA of this Dexter.  That was truly a beautiful shade of dun in his birth coat.   Something effects the various shades of dun. .. . and it is apparent that no one yet knows what.

The Dexter breed was first organized into a registry by a publication called " The Farmer's Gazette".  Three years later the Royal Dublin Society took over the task of organizing the breed and the first herd book was published.   All the cows would be considered foundation stock although there were a few that had parentage recorded.  The animals were registred by inspection, ( singularly based on phenotype at the time), and/or if an animal had won a prize at show they were qualified for registration.  Later on, they established that bulls would have to be pedigreed to enter the herd books but cows were still entered as foundation stock.  ( I don't have the herd books in front of me to give exact years but always happy to go look it up).   The first herd book in England was published in 1900, and there were foundation animals permitted upon inspection as well.  This continued into the 1930's.  I think they began calling them appendix cattle in the late 1920's. Those animals are entered in the Legacy registry as APP for any year.  In 1943 the English began the modern upgrading/appendix registry which required A, B, C, steps to full registration.  There was also the brief experimental registry from which Lucifer descended.  The English closed the barn door after the turn of this century.    America NEVER permitted owners to upgrade.   And now. . . . over 85% of the American herd is upgraded.   Fancy that.  The members were lied to that the imported bulls were pure.  Members should have been raising HE$$ with their board . . . . .but there was no Judy back then who would tell the membership what was going on.  That's what you get when a governing body is not held accountable Kirk.  A herd that is 85% descended from a mongrel mutt grade bull.

Judy

[cascade]

Mar 13, 2015 18:00:26 GMT lakeportfarms said:

So Kirk, do those two cows you've posted as examples qualify as "selected for traits listed in the Dexter breed description"?

The Dexter breed description doesn't necessarily put a limit on the variations of wild-type red.  That's why reds with pink noses and reds with black noses are both acceptable, AND that's why reds with black shading are acceptable.  Brindle is simply a red with a particular type of black shading.  You'd be surprised to find that many blacks have the brindle gene too, and will show a faint shadow of brindling that almost nobody would notice unless they looked VERY closely.
  
The brindle gene is sprinkled liberally throughout most all mammal and cattle breeds, but it needs a couple of other genes at other loci to help it display. That's how it hides so well, because many animals that have the Brindle gene don't have those other specific needed genes at other loci like the Agouti locus.

Notice in 2012, genebo said that Wee Gaelic MS. Fermoy was brindled

"Nov 13, 2012 at 12:42pm genebo said:

To clarify about Ms Fermoy: her brindling was very faint. She looked bright red. You had to look through the hair at her skin in order to tell she was brindled. That's why UGA shaved her, so they could see her skin and confirm that she was brindled."

There are other examples of brindle in Dexters.

Judy posted a picture of one a few years ago  (the picture no longer shows in this thread from the other dexter board)

Perhaps Judy can post that picture of a brindled dexter again

Maybe Gene has a photo of Ms. Fermoy's brindled skin.

If there was a test for the Brindle gene, we could submit Ms. Fermoy's DNA and likely see the Brindling gene (Br).

dextercattle.proboards.com/thread/2713/brindled-dexters?page=1


 

[lakeportfarms]

So, does this polled red Dexter bull have wild type, brindle, or pure red e type?
He has a winter coat on obviously.


How about this one?
Also with a winter coat of cours