A revised pedigree

[jamshundred]

I used to breed pedigree dogs. When I bought my parent dogs I assumed them to be exactly what their pedigree stated.   Had I found out differently I would not have bred and sold the offspring as being something they were not.   So it has always puzzled me why people in this breed either refused to believe published records or in one instance common sense based on circumstances.   I don't understand why they don't get it or if they get it there must be reasons I don't understand as to why they excuse it.      I revised Saltaire Platinums pedigree to reflect the information recorded in the herd books and/or the circumstances and rules/regulations at the time of the birth of his granddam.

These following animals are within or immediately connected to the 10 line pedigree of Saltaire Platinum. There are other appendix animals in the 1930's ( At least five or six) but I tried to stick with the modern appendix program started in the 1940's. This is information that is available in the herd books of England, and was available in 1993 when the Board of Directors of ADCA apparently chose not to do any research or investigation of a polled animal born into a horned breed in a country where outcrossing is a staple of animal husbandry.
 

Saltaire Platinum - Granddam - 50/50 Cross Based on the rules of the DCS regarding male offspring of outcrossed animals he did not qualify to be registered.

Migh Poldark -  Dam 50/50 cross     Based on the rules of the DCS regarding male offspring of outcrossed animals he did not qualify to be registered

Godstone Esmeralda - 50/50 Outcross Registered in error as horned cow. Outcrossed polled cow not registerable or A category upgrade registry at best.  Either way male offspring were not registerable.

Doesmead Belinda 2nd - C36 - Granddam parentage unknown
Doesmead Betsinda B21 Dam parentage unknown
Doesmead Belinda A16 Parentage unknown

Canada Owl of Parndon C11 Granddam parentage unknown
Didgemere Judith B06 Dam parentage unknown
Juliana A6 Unknown parentage

Limbury Fan 6088 Dam unknown - no record
 
Saltaire Pedrilla - gr-granddam 50/50 cross - Based on rules of the DCS this cow would not qualify for registry because grandsire could not be registered.

Saltaire Princess Diana - granddam 50-50 cross - Based on rules of the DCS this cow would not qualify for registry because grandsire could not be registered

Saltaire Magpie - dam 50/50 cross appendix registry A. Did not qualify for registration - male offspring of outcrossed cows not registered.

Homer Rixey Piella - Appendix A138 50/50 cross    

Would this pedigree merit a designation of a "GRADE" animal in the cattle world?   Would ANY other heritage breed cattle association permit EIGHTY-FIVE PERCENT of their herd to be descended from one animal with this pedigree?   Why aren't owners upset this information was either not discovered or known and hidden and they were not given this information so they could make informed choices?  

I have strained muscles in my neck.  Both sides.  This situation keeps me shaking my head in disbelief.

Judy

[lonecowhand]

Judy, Could the ADCA put things right, now, even if they wanted to? Isn't it too late to put the genie back in the bottle?
What would happen to all the registered cattle whose owners bought what they reasonably assumed where what they were sold?
(this being a bit of Devils Advocacy) Not trying to further injure your neck!

[jamshundred]

Hi Cowhand.

NO.  They cannot.   The frustrating thing for me is that NINE years have passed since I first tried to get the information about the upgrading to be acknowledged.   Nine years of uniformed breeders making choices they might have made differently.  Nine years of one traditional bloodline after another being lost that might have been saved.

I do not now. . . .  nor have I ever asked that a single polled animal be removed from registration ( but I think the records should be corrected in England to show the errors and give the correct categories to the animals) nor have I have suggested they be slaughtered or destroyed in any way.  I have never suggested a thing I felt would harm a polled breeder.  This is NOT their fault!  ( Well, OK. . . maybe a few of the original ones who didn't do their homework or wanted polled and pretended they didn't know the truth).   The breeders who have polled cattle purchased them in good faith.  I DO think that breeders who had polled and who knew the truth AFTER it has come to light with no available arguments left should have told their buyers about the controversies so the buyer could make an informed choice as what they wished to breed.  The only thing I've ever asked is.. . . .  . TELL THE TRUTH about the upgrading and in line with that make two divisions in the registry so new people can "see" and know the choices and why.

I believe the two categories should be horned Bloodlines which would include Lucifer animals but there should be some disclosure of his upgrade status,  and Polled bloodlines which would include ANY descendent of Saltaire Platinum whether it was horned or not.   Then breeders can see numbers and stats and even trends and differences in the two.  Listen, they used to get soooooo upset with me for saying mongrel.   But read the description of a mongrel.   This bull has at minimum FOUR outcrossings where NO ONE knows what breed was part of the outcrossing.  We don't know what genetics he carries and what recessives might be lurking.   And over time. . . . .I believe if the cattle market stays as it is today. . . . . the market will end this issue for the most part.  Dexters are and should be a unique niche breed.  We all know they cannot be commercial.  So people who want to make a profit in the beef industry won't do it with Dexters when the fad runs out or even while it is ongoing because they are going to run out of deep pockets and the target market is never going to pay the prices being asked.  Right now the fad going on in the Dexter breed is like a pyramid scheme.  The people who got in on the bottom have done very well for themselves. .  .  . . those who come in late . .  . if they are paying these unsustainable prices are likely going to loose sizable investments in my opinion.   There is not a single livestock breed that has experienced this type of fad in the breed that hasn't been harmed almost beyond repair.  Examples:   Llamas - Big fad, rock bottom prices for females around 12-15,000.   What are the prices today?  And who is even buying them?  Mini horses.  I saw stallions selling for $100,00 ( or more).  You couldn't buy anything for less than a couple thousand for the cull stock.   Today?   Mini donkeys.  Asking prices $4000 - and upwards.   Today?   ( I have a few I am giving away if I can find good homes and they are simply the best little creatures).   Emus anyone?  Pot Belly pigs?  Remember THOSE prices?   And then there were the latest fad before the Dexter polled craze came along. . . . . alpacas.   From $40,000 to hundreds. . .  and dropping fast.     

The only thing sustaining the polled fad and the prices is the high prices in the commercial cattle market, and even that is going to be a factor because a polled Dexter owner can go buy ANY other beef breed and make 40 - 50 cents more a pound on it in the commercial market place.   I believe the downward trend is already in motion.  I know the English are discussing the trouble they are having getting prices over there.   

Judy
 

[wvdexters]

What confuses me so much about this situation is the lack of any action or even concern by the Assoc. over this situation. Even to the point of the anger and ridicule being faced by the breeders/members trying to deal with the facts and save the remnants of our herd.

This is completely my opinion but what I see is a group that feels that if they just continue to tow the line a little longer, and are able to keep a lid on the facts and keep things going just as they are now; the "PROBLEM" will just fix itself and go away. The bloodlines will then be so mingled, and the numbers of unaffected animals so few that there will be no recourse; IT WILL BE DONE. The entire dexter herd in America will be contaminated. And then it will be safe for them to acknowledge the "little unfortunate error" and a call to move forward. The "polled" breeders will have the breed they have been working for - the new Dexter Breed similar but yet so unlike the breed that was described in the herd books of just a short time ago. A brand new breed, bred from the original but with the "new traits/blood" brought in from outside sources.

I keep reading how Dexters are becoming more popular now, how numbers are growing. Going from an "endangered" breed to a breed that while still far from common is gaining ground in this country. But I wonder and the more I think about it the more I wonder.  About these polled animals.

Bringing the polled gene into our dexter herd, bringing "polled dexters" to the world... With the fact that many people prefer hornless cattle. This in the past meant "dehorning" Dexters. But Now - "naturally hornless/polled. Dexters but no horns. - Dexters and no dehorning?

If we run the numbers, the actual numbers. Has the herd really increased? Is the breed truly off the endangered list? The Livestock Conservancy reports that ALL Polled Dexters are "upgrades" resulting from outcrossed genetics. And that the true traditional Dexters are very rare!

Do you realize how easy it would be to FIX this situation. Really stop and think about it ... simple Just Fix It!!!

It is not done yet. (as I have read so often) Not yet! Yes we are close and getting closer every day ... but it still can be FIXED. If We as a group, as an Assoc., .... CHOOSE.  But we have to DO something!!

Acknowledge the situation - The facts

Inform - Publish the situation as it is for all to see.  Facts only -no spin/whitewash/opinions.  Newsletter, website, forums, etc.  

Identify- Those animals that do not carry the outcrossed genetics. 

Take Action - Encourage members to breed traditional stock.  Encourage owners of older "traditional cows" in polled herds to consider breeding to appropriate bulls to save our disappearing old lines.   Set up a system to identify/label traditionally bred dexter lines from "polled lines". 

Polled is here and is part of the American herd.  This is where we are now as a breed, as an assoc.  FACT  But we don't have to allow it to destroy the original breed.  That is OUR DECISION TO MAKE. Everyone has their own opinion on this subject.  Whether you feel it was a terrible error or the greatest thing ever - it doesn't matter.  The facts are in.   The original, traditional herd is disappearing.  If we continue to do nothing (keep our eyes closed shut to what is happening) what took the foundation breeders we all "look to" so many years to create and build will be gone FOREVER.  Never to be seen again.  Shouldn't steps be taken to SAVE this historical breed?? 

 

 
   

[genebo]

Follow the money trail. If you go to the ADCA on-line pedigree and list all the animals owned by our officials, you will find that most are heavily invested in the modern Dexters. To do anything about the problem would be like shooting themselves in the foot. They vote their pocketbook.

[lonecowhand]

Wvdexters
Seems to me if some folks like youselves hold out and protect and propagate the original, traditional breed, the remaining 15% can't help but become more valuable with time, both financially and practically.
I know from trying, that I will have to travel at least 2000 miles to acquire the traditional horned animals I want, because folks out West all breed polled, red cattle with the outcrossings irreversably mixed in. I'm willing to go to great lengths (literally!) to be a part of the solution.
Just as plant seedsmen (including the BIG GUYS) are now turning to heritage seeds for flavor and other valuable traits that have been bred out of modern hybrids, at some point the value of these traditional animals will be recognized.
Hopefully those committed to the breed will still have something to breed with.
Bill

[lakeportfarms]

Keep the information flowing about the traditional Dexter, and eventually it will make its way into the people who are doing their research on the breed in anticipation of purchasing. As the polled Dexter becomes commonplace, as lonecowhand says the older lines will become more and more desireable (what was once old is now new again!) As traditional breeders you can also do your part...carefully select your customers and favor sales of your breeding stock to others who have similar interests and will breed traditional lines.

[lonecowhand]

Genebo's got it right about following the money, when it comes to the politics of the Breed outfits (Legacy Excluded!)
I haven't a clue how to bring pressure to bear on the Boards of the associations.
Maybe someone can suggest actions?

But there are an awful lot of folks out there, who love their little polled cows and when they breed them, are certain they have done the breed a favor.
They are Dexters, and probably very nice little Dexters, and naturally their owners/breeders are defensive to attacks on the animals they love. They are invested both emotionally and financially, as would you be.

So where's the common ground? would everyone be happy if the ADCA just had two lists: Traditional Horned and Polled?
I'm doing the Devil's Advocate thing again.. well I do like horns!

[lonecowhand]

 
So Anyone, in your opinion: What will be the ultimate solution, or at least a satisfactory solution to the rift over the outcrossings and historical pedigree errors, given the 85% outcrossed ("upgraded") population?