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Post by bruff64 on Jun 9, 2016 23:16:09 GMT
An unanswered question that remains open I believe is the very actions that started the great divisions in the Dexter breed. The letter delivered to the ADCA BODs in 1993 and the request from a Lady in Canada that a polled bull's semen imported from the UK be allowed into the American Registry. A Request that was unanimously denied. Who hired the attorney to press the register to accept a bull that was denied by the elected board without a vote? That single incident set the course for all the destruction within the Dexter Community. That will be the legacy of those individuals, praised by some, scorned by others. One single act of deception has created a divide and stigma upon a great number of animals that could have been part of a more harmonious breed association. Or better yet, a new breed developed, even keeping the Dexter name, with a new association. Instead, an historic cattle association was parasitized by a few individuals for their own personal views and gains. As the two types of Dexters drift apart in the coming years the only Dexter that has a rightful claim to the name will be the Traditional (original). All this animosity and division is directly married to the 1993 end around lie. That will be the legacy of those that engineered it and the Dexter prodigy that has evolved from it.
So while those whom ignore the root cause plead their angles on shortness of leg, dun color or lethal hogwash there will be the cloud that follows the polled imposter for many years to come. Mistakes are made, but to continuously deny them perpetuates them. Mistakes admitted generally allow for a path to a solution and reconciliation. Unfortunately, when an admission is made after prolonged procrastination the damage is already done.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jun 10, 2016 1:31:46 GMT
Well said Larry!
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Post by cascade on Jun 10, 2016 16:08:28 GMT
An unanswered question that remains open I believe is the very actions that started the great divisions in the Dexter breed. The letter delivered to the ADCA BODs in 1993 and the request from a Lady in Canada that a polled bull's semen imported from the UK be allowed into the American Registry. A Request that was unanimously denied. Who hired the attorney to press the register to accept a bull that was denied by the elected board without a vote? That single incident set the course for all the destruction within the Dexter Community. That will be the legacy of those individuals, praised by some, scorned by others. One single act of deception has created a divide and stigma upon a great number of animals that could have been part of a more harmonious breed association. Or better yet, a new breed developed, even keeping the Dexter name, with a new association. Instead, an historic cattle association was parasitized by a few individuals for their own personal views and gains. As the two types of Dexters drift apart in the coming years the only Dexter that has a rightful claim to the name will be the Traditional (original). All this animosity and division is directly married to the 1993 end around lie. That will be the legacy of those that engineered it and the Dexter prodigy that has evolved from it. So while those whom ignore the root cause plead their angles on shortness of leg, dun color or lethal hogwash there will be the cloud that follows the polled imposter for many years to come. Mistakes are made, but to continuously deny them perpetuates them. Mistakes admitted generally allow for a path to a solution and reconciliation. Unfortunately, when an admission is made after prolonged procrastination the damage is already done. It was the long-time world-wide accepted practice of dehorning Dexters, many decades before the 1990s, that made the Dexter breed both a horned and hornless breed. Since the associations had already accepted hornless Dexters, for a very long time, they had no valid reason to block the import of the registered purebred hornless Saltaire Platinum. It was the very respectable and elderly Mr. Chesterley of the famous Llanfair herd that wished to save his calves from the torture of dehorning, who requested that he be allowed to import the semen. The "Lady from Canada" was an ADCA regional director in the Northwest district where Mr Chesterley resided. She delivered his request to the board. Mr. Chesterley was a retired person, and his son helped him with the cattle. His son happened to be an attorney, but you don't have to be an attorney to understand that a registry doesn't have the authority to deny your reasonable request, unless the registry can show an existing rule to deny the request. Mr. Chesterley wanted to import a hornless Dexter, and the rules said hornless dexters are acceptable. Several members of the board wanted to block the request based on their own personal preferences, but they could offer no rational legal reason to block the request. Nobody disputed the request on any other grounds than "we don't like it"... the registry's own legal advisors told those directors that "we don't like it" isn't a valid reason to block a request. Bottom line is that the folks who dehorned Dexters converted the breed into a hornless breed, and Mr. Chesterley gets credit for saving thousands of calves from the cruelty of having their horns burned and gouged off. Meanwhile, there are many polled Dexters that are just as traditional, or even more traditional than many dehorned "Traditional" Dexters.
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Post by lonecowhand on Jun 10, 2016 18:03:36 GMT
What a load of B.S.! And I think you know what that means. Who wrote that spin?
Good Old Fred Chesterley wrote a few articles in his time, and while it's not good Karma to speak ill of the deceased, I'll just say his writing expresses he was all for any size, shape, color, or feature added (or deleted) to the Dexter breed if it would sell more animals.
And B. S. on the idea that a breed organization does not have the authority to make decisions regarding what is appropriate for the breed. If they have any Huevos. Most of that bunch just collapsed under fear of lawsuit, the breed be damned. Actually a couple members reported to their constituants at the time, offering the facts and their condolences for the Dexter Breed.
All water under the bridge now, the barn door left open and the cows got out! But please stop trying to rewrite history for us, especially the smarmy spin on the act that changed most of the breed.
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Post by bruff64 on Jun 10, 2016 18:44:59 GMT
Kirt that was a pathetic attempt at story telling. You should move on to writing children's literature where you might find an audience gullible enough to believe the malarkey you pen.
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Post by cascade on Jun 10, 2016 19:32:38 GMT
What a load of B.S.! And I think you know what that means. Who wrote that spin? Good Old Fred Chesterley wrote a few articles in his time, and while it's not good Karma to speak ill of the deceased, I'll just say his writing expresses he was all for any size, shape, color, or feature added (or deleted) to the Dexter breed if it would sell more animals. And B. S. on the idea that a breed organization does not have the authority to make decisions regarding what is appropriate for the breed. If they have any Huevos. Most of that bunch just collapsed under fear of lawsuit, the breed be damned. Actually a couple members reported to their constituants at the time, offering the facts and their condolences for the Dexter Breed. I actually spoke with Fred Chesterley several times. He was a very kind and honest man and was passionate about preserving the Dexter breed. His herd was highly based on the "Legacy" cow, Wee Gaelic Ms. Fermory, whom he owned, plus a lot of animals with Woodmagic background.... His Dexters were solid black or solid red and met the traditional breed descriptions just as well as many de-horned legacy cows like Wee Gaelic Ms. Fermoy. Fred loved Dexters so much that he wanted to save thousands of dexter calves from the agony of dehorning. Breed organizations do have the authority to make rules concerning what is appropriate for the breed, but they must make those rules ahead of time and give a warning of the coming change. Long ago, the breed associations could have included a statement saying "All Dexters MUST have horns and shall NOT be dehorned" to their bylaws but they failed to do so. Instead, they added the statement that says "Horned and Hornless are equal". Even today, many of you so-called "Traditionalists" still dehorn some of your supposedly horned Dexters. By the way, do you know that we could import a bunch more polled Dexters from Australia that don't have Saltaire Platinum on the pedigree? They meet all the rules for import to the US.
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Post by lonecowhand on Jun 10, 2016 20:18:11 GMT
As far as I have been able to ascertain , Chesterley used Mrs. Fermoy exclusively to produce Polled Cattle out of Saltaire Platinum, thereby keeping her American Red genetics out of the traditional Dexter gene pool, almost til the end. Lucky we have Judy and Gene through who's exhaustive efforts American Red still exists in Traditional Horned Dexters!
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Post by cascade on Jun 11, 2016 0:23:36 GMT
Actually, Mr. Chesterley saved Wee Gaelic Ms. Fermoy from obscurity and used her to make certain polled Dexters have the legacy of traditional Dexter traits. She has thousands of polled descendants that have her legacy traditional genetics.
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Post by teatpuller11 on Jun 11, 2016 3:51:50 GMT
Not one of you other Legacy supporters has dealt with the original question. If following the original standard means including whatever other traits you selective think are okay, then this whole Legacy thing is a fake. I find your logic or lack of it doesn't hold up.
With all your criticism of everyone else, it reminds me of the old army joke: watching platoon after platoon of recruits marching by, one proud mother says to the person standing next to her 'Oh look, my Johnny is the only one in step'.
I think you need to spend more time working on useful traits and less time of simply reproducing lawnmowers with a special pedigree you can't defend.
You've just lost a supporter.
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Post by Donlin Stud on Jun 11, 2016 5:26:01 GMT
Teatpuller11 you know there is another forum that may better assist you in the manner you are seeking from this forum.
It's called the Irish Dexter Cattle forum.
It had become a wee too boring for my liking but many of the personalities there would thrive on your 'curiosity'.
I can search for the link for you, or you can do this through Google yourself if preferred
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Post by bruff64 on Jun 11, 2016 9:40:18 GMT
Teatpuller my suspicion is you were not a supporter to begin with so nothing has been lost.
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Post by jamshundred on Jun 11, 2016 20:51:44 GMT
Kirk,
i had conversations with Chesterley. I am not sure we both talked to the same person. I know how he came to own Ms Fermoy when the former purchaser coukd not get her into Canada. I even know how much he paid for her. I also talked to Mr. Hall who owned her before Clark Mizell. He lamemted the lack of integrity in the breeders, and left the breed.
your nonsense about ADCA and SP has been hand fed to you. If you really want to know the truth of it you should ask ALL the esrly breeders involved. And then move to Canada, who held out as long as they could but it cost them plenty of Maples. Chesterley was a pawn. When YOU asked him about the purity of SP what did he say? Let's see if the answers match.
As to ADCA and the mantra of "rules at the time" . Rules never get in ADCA's way. Ask Larry. He is a victim of a rule that didn't exist. ADCA leadership at the time coukd be defined as (1) totally clueless and/or confused (2) bullied (3) negligent (4) lacking professional experience and knowledge (5) self-serving.
The herd book entries existed in 1994 just as they do today. The leadership did not lead. Ther is no upgrading permitted in the US yet US breeders have had to unfairly compete with modern imports. I cannot wait umtil someone with deep pockets and "white Dexters" takes on ADCA. The precedent has been set by greedy idiots and a grade bull.
judy
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Post by cascade on Jun 12, 2016 14:29:34 GMT
There is no upgrading permitted in the US yet US breeders have had to unfairly compete with modern imports. judy Parndon Bullfinch is a modern import, and he has tons of blanks on his pedigree. He's on 99% of US Pedigree's including most all of your "Traditional" Pedigrees. Saltaire Platinum has no pedigree record of any non-Dexters in his 5 generation background.
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Post by teatpuller11 on Jun 12, 2016 16:21:50 GMT
Every slight of hand known to man in the replies, but the question still remains unanswered. And I'm accused of deflection? I strongly support the preservation of old lines. I think horns look lovely. I'd like a whole herd of just shortlegs. I don't care what solid color the Dexter is.
If this group can't bash polled, it has nothing to say. That's sad.
Even polled bashing wouldn't be so bad if you didn't use selective reasoning to support a different modern trait you want to keep. This isn't about my being more comfortable on another board; its about credibility and garnering support for a good cause on this board.
Judy, you talk a lot about all the research you do. Why not contact the English association and find out what the old pre-Mrs. Rutherford vision of dun was. Did England register it as red like the US did? Were duns culled? Was it a combination? What are you going to do to preserve the credibility of the Legacy efforts.
I still want to support the preservation of old lines but it has to make scientific sense.
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Post by bruff64 on Jun 12, 2016 19:24:30 GMT
Ok, I will listen. What would it take to garner your support for a Legacy or Traditional preservation effort. I realize you are not getting the answer you are looking for here. So can you offer up a specific set of suggestions? Put on the table and we can then have a discussion.
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Post by teatpuller11 on Jun 12, 2016 23:30:46 GMT
Bruff, I'm not getting any answer here, at least not to the question asked.
There has been guesswork about how things were in the old days, but no one in America knows for sure what the Irish and English did with off-color animals. You want to be true to the original? Go back to the people who wrote the original and ask them. Were they registered as red? Were they culled? Did both happen depending on who was doing it? How were longlegs handled? I know some were registered (in order to produce more shortlegs), but I also understand that some early breeders only kept the shortlegs and culled everything else, regardless of sex, in the hopes/expectation of eventually getting a true breeding herd. There must have been polled animals registered, because I'm pretty sure England allowed upgrading right from early times, and I've read Angus was a popular cross: those offspring would have been polled, but they were registered anyway.
This whole argument is like saying you want to preserve the concept of the original Fords, and so everyone should only drive Fords that have the same specifications as the first Fords. Well, except we now recognize other colors besides black, and you can have windshield wipers, but if you go for cruise control you aren't driving a Ford anymore, it's just some generic 'car', and you are destroying the whole Ford concept and should be shot.
I'm sorry, this all makes no sense. If a few want to freeze-frame a group of Dexters, I'm good with that. But what I read on this board, and comments from the same people posting on other Dexter boards, if someone wants windshield wipers they're ok, but if they want cruise control, they are trashed. Not a good way to encourage others to join you.
A solution? Let Legacy do its own thing but stop telling everyone else they are doing it wrong for not doing it your way. If the numbers of pure Dexters is diminishing, and you are desperately seeking owners for these special animals, and buyers are not coming forward, the Legacy group must be doing something to put them off...
* By all means talk up original genetics--it's a fantastically good idea. * Stop that everyone-else-is-out-of-step ranting. * Stop the personal attacks when you feel threatened by logic. * Work with the pure Dexters and prove they can hold their own, not just by pedigree, but in the flesh. * Acknowledge that some paperwork is probably incorrect, but you are doing your best with what you have. * Back what you are saying with science. For instance how many generations before any outcrossing is immaterial if you are selecting for Dexter traits each time? Get opinions from several recognized trained sources. Live with the result.
I think you are onto a good thing, but I also think you are putting a lot of people off by the style you are using to get your points across.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2016 16:13:15 GMT
teatpuller, we did do our own thing. We organized and started our own group and what do you and Kirk do(assuming you are not just Kirk posting under a different name). You started attacking us for doing so. I do not for one second believe that you are a Legacy supporter or have any intentions on here other than to argue with people for the sake of arguing. I am confused some things you post indicate you have a little knowledge of Dexters. Then other things would indicate that you have no clue what a Dexter is. I think you are just trolling Kirk.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jun 13, 2016 18:26:58 GMT
Bruff, I'm not getting any answer here, at least not to the question asked.
There has been guesswork about how things were in the old days, but no one in America knows for sure what the Irish and English did with off-color animals. You want to be true to the original? Go back to the people who wrote the original and ask them. Were they registered as red? Were they culled? Did both happen depending on who was doing it? How were longlegs handled? I know some were registered (in order to produce more shortlegs), but I also understand that some early breeders only kept the shortlegs and culled everything else, regardless of sex, in the hopes/expectation of eventually getting a true breeding herd. There must have been polled animals registered, because I'm pretty sure England allowed upgrading right from early times, and I've read Angus was a popular cross: those offspring would have been polled, but they were registered anyway.
This whole argument is like saying you want to preserve the concept of the original Fords, and so everyone should only drive Fords that have the same specifications as the first Fords. Well, except we now recognize other colors besides black, and you can have windshield wipers, but if you go for cruise control you aren't driving a Ford anymore, it's just some generic 'car', and you are destroying the whole Ford concept and should be shot.
I'm sorry, this all makes no sense. If a few want to freeze-frame a group of Dexters, I'm good with that. But what I read on this board, and comments from the same people posting on other Dexter boards, if someone wants windshield wipers they're ok, but if they want cruise control, they are trashed. Not a good way to encourage others to join you.
A solution? Let Legacy do its own thing but stop telling everyone else they are doing it wrong for not doing it your way. If the numbers of pure Dexters is diminishing, and you are desperately seeking owners for these special animals, and buyers are not coming forward, the Legacy group must be doing something to put them off...
* By all means talk up original genetics--it's a fantastically good idea. * Stop that everyone-else-is-out-of-step ranting. * Stop the personal attacks when you feel threatened by logic. * Work with the pure Dexters and prove they can hold their own, not just by pedigree, but in the flesh. * Acknowledge that some paperwork is probably incorrect, but you are doing your best with what you have. * Back what you are saying with science. For instance how many generations before any outcrossing is immaterial if you are selecting for Dexter traits each time? Get opinions from several recognized trained sources. Live with the result.
I think you are onto a good thing, but I also think you are putting a lot of people off by the style you are using to get your points across.
In my opinion it wasn't so much what existed at the time, it was the intent of those who were breeders and admirers of the breed . And the intent was pretty clear, a waist high (on typically much shorter average height people than what exist today) cow and bull that could be easily handled and managed, tri-purpose but certainly dual purpose traits, mostly solid color of black and red of various shades but since genetic science was barely a thought at the time the particulars weren't known. And horned. If there were some polled mixed in, they were very likely culled and ultimately bred out of the breed. All one has to do is look at the photos to see what the preferred type was. I think the reason you and Cascade focus on color is because that is the ONE area that cannot be readily identified...it is the chink in the armor or the soft underbelly that you believe can discredit the effort on the part of traditional horned breeders into accepting that polled is the equivalent. My problem with the polled is pretty well known... It isn't even really Platinum, it is what he has wrought...I believe that there was a lot of introgression that has taken place in the past 10, even 15 years or so, in order to increase the odds of having polled Dexters to sell. It's certainly possible that there was introgression in the horned Dexters sometime in the past, however the incentive for doing so was a tiny fraction of a percent compared to the scarcity and big bucks that polled were commanding in the past decade, and I'm comfortable enough with the integrity of the pedigree of my horned Dexters. So I have little trust in the integrity of the polled pedigree. Sure, I could try and do what Kirk does and slowly create a facsimile of the Traditional Dexter, without horns, but I have zero interest in spending the next 20 or more years of my life attempting to produce what is sitting in my pasture right now...something very much like the original Dexter that those photographs depict. I'd much rather twiddle around the edges and make minor adjustments and improvements, and provide to new Dexter owners a similar experience that they can immediately enjoy, rather than selling them my rejects because they aren't what I would have for myself. Even if I dehorn some of them, I can immediately put the horns back on any of their offspring if I or my customers so choose.
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Post by teatpuller11 on Jun 13, 2016 18:46:39 GMT
Lakeport, I think you've missed my point.
Legacy people CANNOT claim to be working to original standards--WITH EXCEPTIONS, and give themselves major credit for being more special and more dedicated, and then criticize others for working to original standards--with exceptions. What turns off those of us who might want to follow or even join a movement to preserve and maintain early bloodlines, is the constant trashing of any and every-one who doesn't do it your way. I've seen posts here by cascade where he uses genuine, serious logic to show how some of you have selective and/or warped logic, and the only replies he gets are personal and vindictive and really, really inappropriately nasty. It's as though you can't counter his arguments so you attack him personally. This is just so wrong, and off-putting. Clean up the act and you'll have dozens of new followers.
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Post by lonecowhand on Jun 13, 2016 19:51:00 GMT
Wait , maybe I missed something? As someone who allegedly values the traditional Dexter, you believe that outcrossing with an impure polled bull was not wrong? That foisting him off as a "Miracle mutation" was not wrong? That strong arming the breed association at the time with threats of litigation to get your way was not wrong? That the loss of many fine animals because they were chondro carriers was not wrong?
I don't think we need your lists of what we need to do for you. Call off your dog, and there wont be any need to respond to him. Voila! No more name calling!
I can't speak for others on this board, but I bear no ill will or animosity toward those who purchased or raise the 'modern dexter'. They just love the cows they bought, that they were led to believe were purebred. They are fine cows. I do resent that a few people yanked the system, called them Dexters and continue the ruse, selling the semen, making traditional Dexters scarce as hens teeth.
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Post by teatpuller11 on Jun 13, 2016 21:08:36 GMT
Loneowhand, show me where I support raising polled Dexters.
I think it was cascade who said the rules at the time were followed. Don't all imported animals (or semen) have to come with a five generation purebred pedigree issued by the 'home' association? Did Saltair? If he did, then he qualified for use here. Our associations figured that five generations of purebred status, with another five generations from the original cross, plus one more generation to get offspring on the ground here, or 11 generations from the original outcross was more than enough to 'protect' American bloodlines. Science doesn't support this; science says only 3 or 4 generations is well and enough distance. 11 generations is obsessive overkill, and yet it's still not good enough for Legacy.
My best input is to say Legacy supporters need to apply accepted scientific principles, stop using the Johnny step, and stop making the attacks personal when they can't argue the logic. Legacy doesn't have that many supporters. Maybe you can change this.
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Post by Donlin Stud on Jun 13, 2016 21:42:09 GMT
Loneowhand, show me where I support raising polled Dexters.
Legacy doesn't have that many supporters. Maybe you can change this. Legacy has more supporters than you obviously are aware of, and not just in America but around the world.
Just because many supporters choose to not respond to such dogmatic statements doesn't mean they don't exist
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Post by teatpuller11 on Jun 14, 2016 15:01:21 GMT
Donlin, congratulations for being a preservationist.
What I see is roughly 1% of the international Dexter membership vocally supporting preservation by that name, and 99% breeding everything from crosses to old lines only, but without patting themselves on the back every three seconds.
Since first lurking here, and now joining, what I've noticed particularly is the preservation minded group posts fall into two categories. The first is talking about how pure and special their animals are, commenting on rare, cute, and pretty horns. Not a word about real traits. Photos show nice shortlegs with horns, or often scraggly longlegs with pretty horns. The second topic is all hate literature directed at the general population of both animals and owners, on how the majority are mindlessly and uncaringly destroying the breed. If anyone dares to disagree, or bring up scientific arguments that don't match the preservationists version, they are personally attacked, with sarcasm, racial and sexual slurs, and whatever else will make them crawl back in their holes.
I started this thread because we were being told that Legacy supported the original breed standards of 1900. Period. If it didn't match that 1900 standard, we were doing it wrong and not breeding real Dexters. But wait--the original standards were modified to include dun and longlegs. At the same time, the posts included extremely nasty attacks on anyone who wanted genetic dehorning. Windshield wipers and cruise control. I questioned this, and suggested we should get the facts before agreeing to modify the original. Immediately I was accused of supporting genetic polling and using dun as a blind. Then lakeport came on and said shades of red probably included dun, but Cascade said dirty oak tables were culled. Two different viewpoints, but Lakeport's is right and cascade's is wrong.
Fermoy and Saltair have very similar backgrounds, neither looks like a traditional Dexter, both have traits that can be questioned. But for the preservationists Fermoy is the American patron saint of red and idolized; Saltair is Satan's spawn. From what I've read, Fermoy's pedigree is a lot more questionable than Saltair's. Further, I'm pretty sure Saltair has been dna typed against Legacy approved traditional animals ONLY and found to have a profile that falls into the traditional mold. No extra Angus, no extra Shorthorn (see, I'm paying attention!).
1% vs. 99%. Selective reasoning. Unsupportable 'facts'. Vicious attacks, often personal, on anyone who challenges the official line.
This started as a genuine question about selective reasoning for including (some) modern traits in traditional lines. Preservation of old lines is a good thing and very important to the breed. I've now moved on and extended the topic to say trashing everyone else is a bad way to get supporters.
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Post by poco on Jun 14, 2016 16:14:39 GMT
Tough, ain't it? You find yourself wanting to support the preservation effort, because of what you see within the breed. Yet you find yourself being disgusted with the verbiage and bashing from the preservationists themselves. Just plug on, let them do their thing. All of them.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jun 16, 2016 11:08:39 GMT
Teatpuller I'll say it one last time...The Dexter breed could have absorbed Platinum if he had been introduced today with the existing rules IF genotyping had been in place for all Dexters for the past several years (even that isn't a guarantee but it would have made it much harder). However what Platinum brought was one less physically identifiable trait that provides some hints on whether or not both parents were indeed Dexters, at a time when both bulls and cows were not required to be genotyped. I'll give you an example...my wife was doing her little Craigslist scan looking for the diamonds in the rough that sometimes pop up there, and found a bull calf out of two registered ADCA cows in TN. We inquired to the poster about the ADCA numbers, and both had Traditional pedigrees and the photos showed they were black and very nice looking (the bull was even a short leg bull). But the bull calf was red. We have quite a few Traditional carries red cows, and one Traditional red cow, and now we had the opportunity to pick up an unrelated red bull calf out of some really nice lines. We could see in the pedigree of the mom where the red came from, given some existing Dexters we know carry red. And we could see where it came from in the bull, but boy it was a stretch because it had to make it all the way through 5 generations or more. The owner had acquired the Dexters a little over a year before, all were open, and she had no other cows or bulls or bull calves on her property. The owner couldn't catch the bull calf very easily to pull tail hairs, but we did get permission to have the sire tested for red. The results came back that he didn't carry red. Maybe it was a fresh mutation??? Those things are supposed to occur you know Remember no other cows or bulls on the property. Actually the story is this...9 months earlier they had had a small flood and it took out a bit of the fence. The cow had gotten out for a few hours and ventured one mile down the road, toward a farm that had a herd of BLACK ANGUS cows and a bull. All Black Angus, no Red Angus. Yes, after a month or two the red "Dexter" bull calf showed no evidence of horns. Obviously the few hours that she was out, during the one time that a flood took out part of their fence, was an ideal time to be bred by a BLACK, NOT RED, homozygous polled ANGUS bull on a farm one mile down the road. In 2008, less than 8 years ago, that RED, POLLED, DEXTER bull could have been REGISTERED IN THE ADCA. Do you understand now why I am skeptical about the supposed parentage of some Dexters out there that have phenotypes and traits that are diverging so much, in such a short period of time, from the Dexters of less recent years? How many of those types of "mistakes" are floating around? I realize that the same thing could happen with horned Dexters, even with some Traditional lines, with other horned breeds that would not have been discovered or possibly even undetected by the breeder, however there wasn't such a financial benefit to the mistake. In an example like the one I gave above, it could have been a profitable oops for the owner 10 years ago, and that bull calf would have been snatched up by somebody looking for a red polled Dexter bull. Now of course we're swimming in them.
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Post by bruff64 on Jun 16, 2016 17:53:20 GMT
Exactly. If Platinum was brought in under questionable circumstances, and once the semen was available, it would have been very easy to make other crosses to polled cattle and slide them into the breed. It all started with a lie so it's reasonable to suspect additional transgressions were committed before genotyping.
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Post by wvdexters on Jun 16, 2016 19:21:24 GMT
Hi Teatpuller,
I'm sorry that you haven't found the answers you are looking for. I know how difficult it can be when you are first starting out with Dexters, and trying to learn all that you can. There is so much confusing information out there. And so often it seems to be so contradicting, depending on the sources.
I think part of the problem on sites like these is that it can be difficult to communicate exactly what you are trying to say, with only a few printed words. And it would probably be so much easier (and with far fewer misunderstandings) if we could all talk face to face and see the other person when speaking. I know often times I've written posts and then was so surprised to see the responses I got back because it was taken differently than I had intended.
Perhaps I can try to help, maybe from the viewpoint of a newer person to the breed. Some of your questions are very much like ones I asked too. I actually started out with 2 horned heifers; 1 black dwarf (Chondro carrier) and 1 red non-carrier after learning about Dexters from doing research on the internet. Well after falling in love with the breed as so often happens, we added another dwarf heifer this time traditionally bred. Turn the clock forward a few yrs, we now have an all traditional herd and are so pleased with the animals themselves and in helping to preserve a really remarkable breed.
Maybe we can talk, and I can tell you why we came to make that decision, and why I believe it is so worthwhile to keep these lines going. Anyway, it couldn't hurt to discuss some of these topics, and see if we can at least understand where the other is coming from.
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Post by lonecowhand on Jun 16, 2016 22:19:04 GMT
Poco, you can give teatpuller props and be disgusted with the bashing the shills deserve and receive for trying to undermine a worthy cause, or you can think and recognize that some posters are only here to discredit the preservation effort, as they have from the beginning.
We know who and why they are here, and prior actions and statements don't melt away as fast as a Forum post. Who stands to gain by discrediting the preservation of Pre-Platinum lines? The breeders and purveyors of Platinum and his semen.
Support for original breed standards means getting as close as possible given the pragmatic present day circumstances; those being that less than 15% of registered Dexters don't have an admixture which includes Platinum. Most that DO include Platinum include him for 4 or more generations. That is tragic, in the opinion of most here.
The Red Herring of the week seems to be color, specifically 'what color is red, or dun?' The fact that the championed breed association of choice for Platinum subscribers, ADCA, has listed animals forever as "red or dun" in their own pedigree listings, should suffice to prove that dun and red were never adequately described, so are immaterial.
Before that, it was an attack on dwarfism, Chondro carriers, shorties.
You see, these sweetly worded posts are not just pleasant requests for clarity, they are carefully crafted to get empathetic responses (like yours) to these poor victims of the horned meanies on this board. The posts are designed to inspire retaliatory comments to show how irrational the traditional preservationists are. We are always torn between letting these statements lie, or defending what we know to be the truth. Keep an open mind.
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Post by teatpuller11 on Jun 18, 2016 17:08:49 GMT
Lonecowhand, so now I'm a shill because I can't get anyone to pony up to the bar and be specific? You and lakeport have just proved my point: trapped in a corner, all you can do is lash out. This isn't about color or genetic dehorning or leg length.
THIS IS ABOUT SELECTIVE STANDARDS AND CREDIBILITY.
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Post by lonecowhand on Jun 20, 2016 17:58:43 GMT
Right, and believe in the tooth faerie!
That's what makes a shill, Pretense. You receive the answers you request,(topic 4) but don't choose to accept them. No lashing out, just observation. Hardly a trap, more an annoyance.(topic last)
All you wanted was an answer , you got it. Your intent is transparent. Your motive is apparent.
You wish to say you've mostly eliminated the original version through dilution, and can't imagine anyone still recognizing a difference? Curses, foiled again.
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