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Post by teatpuller11 on Feb 18, 2017 3:09:11 GMT
Hi Lonecowhand, I see you have come back, now.
Great.
So, my question is, why are the UCD results hogwash, prattle and codswallop? Why do you think the test results are lies, falsehood and deceit?
And I sure don't want to get into federal politics here, either. Doesn't say much for our country if those were the two best people we could field for the top job. Let's leave them to it, and just focus on Dexters.
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Post by bruff64 on Feb 18, 2017 18:45:35 GMT
I knew it, the Canadians voted in our election........Cheers
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Post by jamshundred on Feb 19, 2017 23:32:02 GMT
For anyone who is reading here and believes the deceit, let me say to you that I am known to be straight forward and honest, and there are those who attempt to lead you down the primrose path!
Saltaire Platinum has FIVE outcrosses in his pedigree, when one counts the fake mutation story. Do you know he was not the only "mutation" of the time in England? LOL. Bet most of you did not know that. But, the truth is, they cannot be proven to be mutations. There are NO proven mutations in the Dexter breed. Not a single one And with the polled issue, you MUST parentage confirm at the least. .. two generations.
There were two long-term closed herds in the world of Dexters, and neither of them ever had a mutation. There has never been a proven mutation in the US, or in Holland, or in Germany, or in New Zealand that I've ever read about, yet a country where outcrossing existed on a regular basis. . . . .there were "mutations". Fill up that glass of Koolaid and read on.
Since when did a scientific opinion derived from descendents of the animal being studied equal good science? (1) it does not and did not (2) It never said a thing about Saltaire Platinum being pure. As a matter of fact, for the FIRST TIME in 20 years . .. ADCA. . . . . had to finally admit *I* was right all along and the bull was introgressed, and this was published in the Bulletin. After years of abuse by polled breeders, I finally succeeded in getting it in writing by ADCA that he was a percentage bull. (Actually, he is a GRADE bull but you gotta start somewhere)!
As to additional evaluations as to purity status. Again, you will have to trust my word. There IS additional information. It was related to me by the person who has the information, and *I* do not have the right to say any more than that. It is someone else's data and someone else's story. Eventually, just as in ADCA having to admit this bull is out-crossed after trying to silence me through any means, I was proven right. And I promise you. . . . in time. . . . you will see my word is good yet again. And that will include providing some additional information on another of Kirk's phony challenges which I cannot do today. You see, I've learned to hold the cards tight to my chest until the last coin is in the pot.
Saltaire Platinum has NO claim to purity. He is a GRADE bull. As a matter of fact, take a look at his photo. Take a look at the offspring plastered all over the internet, and evaluate the truth that a huge percentage of his descendants not only do NOT look like Dexters, but they are not quality animals. And think on this. . . . . . American breeders could go to just about ANY sale barn in America . . . on ANY given day. . .. . . .and buy a really good GRADE bull that WOULD improve the animals they are producing.
Finally, the greed and fad of the fake polled increased prices in this breed to a level that almost always precludes a series crash in any breed where it happens. One that takes decades if not longer to overcome. I think we have passed the tipping point. Cattle prices are down. . . . . .and the "experts" expect them to stay down through this year. Costs of feed and equipment are higher. It is going to be much more difficult to turn a profit. Besides there being a number of animals for sale. . . . . ( including the secondary hoard of unregistered and outcrossed animals), there are a number of herds being sold. AND. . ... .the asking prices have nose dived. In a tight market . .. . those who do not have hobby dollars to spend are going to be heading out to established profitable breeds. Leadership in America has allowed this breed and the market to be glutted with out-crossed animals which do not resemble the breed or it's special traits. When the fad is over there are no longer even large families to eat those mistakes! Kind of tough ( maybe literally) to eat a $4000 cow. LOL. Now, that IS expensive steak.
Judy
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Post by cascade on Feb 20, 2017 4:13:11 GMT
On paper, ALL Dexters are "grade" because all Dexters have holes on their pedigrees. In reality, all Dexters have crosses in their backgrounds because without Dexters being raised in complete isolation, it was impossible to keep introgressions from occuring, and without parentage testing, those introgressions couldn't be caught. So what we are left with today, is DNA breed testing and phenotype to tell us whether a Dexter is "Dexter" enough to be considered purebred Dexter. UC Davis Genetics experts says Saltaire Platinum has the same DNA as the "purest of pure Dexters" and Platinum's phenotype matches the 1900 breed description exactly (except he is hornless, just like many dehorned "traditional" Dexters). So where does that leave traditionalists who want to "preserve" Dexters as the founders meant them to be? If everyone simply followed traditional management practices and followed the original 1900 Breed Standard as much as possible in their breeding decisions, you'd save traditional Dexters. This non-chondrodysplasia 4 year old cow (Cascade's Spur) meets the 1900 Breed Standard perfectly, and she has Saltaire Platinum on her pedigree 17 times. She throws 100% thick, shorter-legged bulls that will top out at 850-900 pounds (the 1900 breed standard says 900 pounds maximum)
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Post by lonecowhand on Feb 20, 2017 18:44:20 GMT
TP Two, my comment of lies and deceit regards the constant barrage of "spin" offered by the OP, not the findings of the UCD: "Polled are the same as Horned", "All Dexters have TONS of non dexters in their backgrounds..." etc.
The very heading of this thread, is the Lie, the spin. To say that Platinum, who was entered into the ADCA through coercion, and threat of lawsuit against the then-seated Board who had already voted to disallow Platinum, is now a "Traditional Dexter" (A term coined to EXCLUDE platinum) is the height of all of those adjectives I provided.
The UCD results are what they are, they don't offer any other info than that the sample provided(?) does not have recognizable markers to other known breeds.
Having had my own DNA tested and rerun , which completely left off half of my genetic ethnic origins, I have little faith in genetic testing at this time, I assume we are farther behind in Cattle DNA, than in Human DNA.
So where did the original sample of Platinum come from, who provided it, is it really him, who was the cross section or control against which the results are compared, all these things are suspect.
I don't consider deceit unimaginable where money is at stake.
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Post by cascade on Feb 21, 2017 7:08:07 GMT
The UCD results are what they are, they don't offer any other info than that the sample provided(?) does not have recognizable markers to other known breeds. Having had my own DNA tested and rerun , which completely left off half of my genetic ethnic origins, I have little faith in genetic testing at this time, I assume we are farther behind in Cattle DNA, than in Human DNA. So where did the original sample of Platinum come from, who provided it, is it really him, who was the cross section or control against which the results are compared, all these things are suspect. The DNA sample came from folks who had AI straws of S.P. semen. The test has three parts: 1. Look for traces of other breeds (none were found) 2. Compare the Y-chromosome of S.P. to Y-chromosomes of the purest Dexters (excellent match) 3. Compare S.P. genetic profile to the genetic profiles of the purest of pure Dexters (excellent match). Saltaire Platinum's DNA is consistent with the purest of pure Dexters, approved by Judy. The fact that your own DNA does not contain traces of some of your ancestors genetics is a key fact in genetics and animal breeding. In the genetic shuffle, 50% of an ancestor's genes are lost each generation. That's how grading-up creates purebred animals that don't have a trace of the off-breed ancestor from five generations ago. According to the bylaws, the board does not get to vote on whether an animal is accepted or not... Instead, they must simply apply the existing rules of acceptance.... the standard already allowed for hornless Dexters and nobody found any problems with Saltaire Platinum's pedigree. Voting wasn't appropriate because they had no grounds to reject S.P. who fit the rules. Interfering with horn growth was always acceptable in the registry and lack of horns was never a reason to deny registration. NOBODY found any problems with the pedigree. S.P. fit the requirements for import. The vote was invalid because the bylaws don't allow "voting" for or against whether individual animals can be registered. Those who pressed for a vote, were breaking the rules.
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Post by lonecowhand on Feb 21, 2017 18:48:22 GMT
Here we go again.
Compared to the purest Dexters? Approved by Judy? Really? How hard is it to relabel a vial? (for example)
The fact in my case was not that "some" of my ancestors were lost, it was that my fathers entire contribution (HALF) was unreported. I am his clone, all of his sons have his "Stamp". My mom says she was just along for the ride!
My point, the DNA test was wrong. These things happen.
The present bylaws of the ADCA have no bearing, According to one of the directors (who quit after the Platinum Caper)they were not going to allow Platinum, were threatened by the owner cartel with litigation, and caved.
Platinum never met the rules for this horned breed, (He was Polled, you know...) didn't meet the rules as an Outcrossed dexter mix. Those who foisted the bull in ( Chesterly, et al )were knowingly breaking the rules for monetary gain.
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Post by cascade on Feb 21, 2017 20:32:29 GMT
The vial of semen, tests as polled, and the vial of semen tests as being the sire of known living polled offspring of Saltaire Platinum, and the vial of semen tests as pure Dexter. Zero chance of vial swapping.
The DNA test has been run twice with the same result... And that result is exactly what genetics experts would expect to see.
If you provide me with the exact details of your own DNA test that you believe are "wrong", I can explain them to you. Starting in the early 1960's, the Dexter Breed officially was both a horned and hornless breed and it was in writing.
The director who wanted to block Platinum based on their own personal preferences, offered ZERO legal cause to block him, because the rules already allowed for breeders to interfere with horn growth, using any method at all.
Bottom line is that the breed originators and early breeders associations could have made a rule stating that having horns is a requirement of registration. But they didn't, instead they specifically allowed for hornless Dexters.
Any director going against the rules (rejecting a Dexter because of lack of horns) should have been fired and sued for attempting to break the rules, which clearly allowed for hornless Dexters.
The only monkey-business involved was the Director who wanted to block S.P. without having a legally valid reason to do so.
PS. I find it laughable that so many people who promote horns, burn or cut them off.
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Post by jamshundred on Feb 21, 2017 22:42:31 GMT
Saltaire Platinum is NOT tested "purebred". That is an impossibility based on the standards of cattle breeders, now isn't it? He isn't pure. . . nor is he purebred. He is GRADE bull.
He has multiple out crosses in the herd books of his registry of origin. FACT.
It is unfortunate we do not know the breeds involved in those crosses, as maybe then we could do an analysis of the recessives known in those breeds and begin to discover what is causing all these deaths in calves that are being reported by polled breeders on the pages of FB. Something seems to be amiss, and since PHA and Dwarfism are identified and in most reports I have seen the deaths are in cows tested non-carrier, then the leadership of this breed SHOULD be paying attention and doing some investigation. Maybe you could spend all the time you waste trying to convince us a GRADE bull is PURE on attempting to head off another genetic disaster in the breed by doing a really worthwhile investigation.
Judy
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Post by bruff64 on Feb 21, 2017 23:32:40 GMT
"PS. I find it laughable that so many people who promote horns, burn or cut them off." Another generalization without merit. All the traditional breeders around me leave the horns on. And that is becuase they can, being traditional and all. A lot of laughs wasted.
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Post by cascade on Feb 21, 2017 23:37:55 GMT
Judy,
I'm sure you have a copy of the 2nd run of results from UC Davis proving that Saltaire Platinum is purebred Dexter.
Why are you and your deceiving friends hiding those results?
Just post the results here for all to see.
If the results had come out differently, you know you and others involved would have posted those results everywhere and shouted them from mountain tops.
PS. While you're at it, please provide a list of living Dexters today, that trace 100% of their ancestry back to the very first Dexters listed in the Doublin Dexter Herdbook #1 in 1890's. You won't do that, because no living Dexters today have complete pedigrees back that far. I appreciate the historical work you've done, but your own work is uncovering the true story of Dexters, and it's squashing your purity theories.
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Post by lonecowhand on Feb 22, 2017 0:05:41 GMT
Why waste money on a test when you can see the fly in the ointment for yourself. Take a look at a photo of Chesterly's Llanfairs Polgaron, (Platinum's) Tell me if he even resembles a Dexter to you.
I have not seen or heard of another test of Platinum. Have you seen one? How hard is it to put another name on a vial?
I offered the example of my own DNA test to illustrate that the results of such testing can be in error. And it illustrates that while the test may not show it , traits are passed down, regardless of the test results.
So when you have a polled bull of unknown origin, you get all of him as a pallete of characteristics, you may get some you want, you will get some you don't.
Breeders are supposed to be able to count on their breed associations to protect the characteristics of the breed. ADCA failed in that regard, by crumbling under the specter of litigation, allowing a polled animal into a Horned breed, and allowing an animal with dubious pedigree. That's all done and passed.
Just don't pretend the polled result are traditional.
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Post by jamshundred on Feb 22, 2017 0:38:59 GMT
Kirk,
I have said on several occasions that if *I* had copies of a second report I would provide them. What I have is hearsay from someone whose information is not mine to share.
Since you quote so succinctly information that should only be in the hands of a person who authorized testing, and since *I* have not given permission for samples I own to be used for anything other than tests of which I am involved or have an interest. . . . . .I am really quite puzzled and skeptical about this "second" test of which you are so certain exists, yet . .. YOU. . .have never provided it.
If you want a list of animals you are quite as capable as me of going through records and identifying them. Go to it. I don't take marching orders from anyone and I am pretty sure that has been obvious for a very long time.
Judy
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Post by cascade on Feb 22, 2017 3:14:06 GMT
Saltaire Platinum daughter, meets the 1900 breed standard perfectly 4 year old cow with Saltaire Platinum on her pedigree 17 times.... Perfectly meets the 1900 Breed Standard and so do all of her offspring.
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Post by cascade on Feb 22, 2017 3:30:55 GMT
Here are the test results from UC Davis stating that Saltaire Platinum is just as pure as the purest of Dexters. They reran the test and got the same result.
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Post by jamshundred on Feb 22, 2017 11:43:08 GMT
That is the FIRST result. That result HAS been disputed as it evaluated Saltaire Platinum against samples which at a *MINIMUM* are represented as NINETY PERCENT descended from himself (and usually multiple inclusions within a five generation pedigree) therefore the result, unless ran solely against Dexters where he is NOT an ancestor has NO VALIDITY for non-biased accuracy.
WHERE IS THE COPY OF THE SECOND TEST?
The breed records in England tell the story of this bull's ACTUAL heritage of multiple outcrosses which....in livestock circles. . . equate to a status of GRADE . . . . .which many of his offspring, (as represented in hundreds if not thousands of photos) depict descendents worthy of sale barn transport. The only thing he has offered to the breed is the removal of horns and mediocre conformations comparable to many sale barn beef breed entries. Even his importer abandoned breeding from this bloodline. You can try to bolster the devastation this single bull has wreaked on a once Unique and Special breed with a faulty scientific analysis, but remember that scientific analysis told you to replace the butter on your toast with oleo.
Judy
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Post by cascade on Feb 22, 2017 15:48:02 GMT
Both tests got the same result. That's why you and your friends failed. Anyone with a basic understanding of genetics could have told you that ahead of time.
Tests looked for traces of other breeds in Platinum's DNA and found none. No amount of rerunning the test would result in any different result on that portion of the test, because they were comparing Platinum to other breeds.
Platinum's pedigree records also show no other breeds.
Yes, Platinum has some holes on his distant pedigree, but those holes could be purebred Dexters and the DNA test supports that.
Again, ALL Dexters have holes on their pedigrees. No living Dexters today trace 100% back to the original 1890's Dexters in the Dublin Ireland Herdbook Number One.
Saltaire Platinum was an exceptional purebred Dexter bull with exceptional attributes. His daughter at age 18 is still delivering superior calves every year.
Saltaire Platinum is a terrific DNA-verified purebred Dexter, but that doesn't mean you need to stop loving and promoting horned Dexters.
I fully support your efforts to create a historical pedigree database and I love looking at the old history. We know that without parentage verification, many of those old records are wrong, but they still are historically significant.
I fully support a drive to get people to consider the 1900 Breed Standard as much as possible in their breeding selection decisions to keep Dexters from changing too much.
I fully support people who promote horns and who don't interfere with horn growth. But you don't need to bash hornless Dexters to do that.
Those three areas are indisputable. Why not focus on those three indisputable areas?
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Post by jamshundred on Feb 22, 2017 16:19:46 GMT
Kirk, NINETY PERCENT of all registered Dexters in America are descendents of SP, most of them within five generations descended and most pedigrees more than once.
He was basically compared to himself, or HIS OWN BREED. And yet. . .. . . . . .he only had an 89% comparison rate as being purebred to himself. Fancy that. LOL.
WHERE is the copy of the supposed SECOND TEST. .. . . which would have HAD to be done on samples. . . . . .*I*........own to have any credibility and ......*I* have NEVER been advised UCD used samples ....*I*.....own for a second analysis. Still waiting!
Do not try to deflect from the main issue with patronizing support. Unless you support the preservation of original horned Dexter bloodlines you support a NEW breed of upgraded cattle known as "polled Dexters". You are no different than "White Dexter" breeders. One new breed was honest in it's development, the other deceitful.
Judy
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Post by cascade on Feb 22, 2017 20:05:01 GMT
You missed this
"Breed analysis provide no evidence of a genetic background other than Dexter"
That was based on comparing Saltaire Platinum's genetics to DNA from a huge list of other breeds. That part of the test has nothing to do with other Dexters.
Further, in the first run of the test by UC Davis, they also compared S.P. to a list of nearly 40 Dexters. UC Davis did a reasonable job of attempting to exclude Saltaire Platinum descendents from that control group, but they missed a few that had S.P. as a distant ancestor. Four of those nearly 40 animals had a tiny percentage of S.P. genetics. Do the math and you'll see that 99+% of the genes in the control group were from non-saltaire platinum backgrounds.
That meant that a rerun of that test to exclude those 4 animals would have less than a 1% difference in the result.
The folks involved in disputing the first test, and requesting a second test have very poor genetics knowledge and were hoping for a different result because they don't understand genetics... But for those of us with a clear understanding of genetics, we knew a second run of the test would give nearly the same result.
Perhaps you and your friends should have spoken with me before you wasted your time and money on a second test.
Again, I agree with you that Dexters are drifting too far away from the key features of the 1900 Breed Standard, but that's just because so many people aren't following the 1900 breed standard which requires all Dexters to be under 900 pounds and to have thick builds and shorter legs. Even people who love horns seem to be so focused on horns that they ignore the key features of traditional Dexters as recorded in the 1900 Breed Standard.
PS. It's obvious that the folks involved in requesting the second "secret" test, are just wanting to peddle cows, and don't have an interest in sharing real information. That's why you/they are shamefully hiding the results.
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Post by jamshundred on Feb 23, 2017 1:37:34 GMT
Kirk,
NOT a "huge" list of other breeds. Probably not 1/4 of 1/4 of all existing breeds. Red Poll isn't on the list. In England, . . . . . . and in Ireland. . . . there are those who are convinced there is red poll in his heritage. ( Could be. .. but I am not one of those who believe it comes from the source they believe). Still, there is the question, was the red from Red Poll, Jersey, ( Michaelmas Squeak) or Dexter?
You are willing to go to any lengths to legitimize illegitimacy. The bull has outcrosses. Multiple outcrosses. Nothing changes that. Science has proven across the ages of time to be fragile. Your science is beyond fragile because it will not withstand the test of truth.
Judy
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Post by jamshundred on Feb 23, 2017 1:39:20 GMT
. It is obvious to me the authors of this research have never read the book by Nancy Friday, "My Mother Myself". Judy
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Post by cascade on Feb 23, 2017 7:18:58 GMT
There are 3 parts to the test:
1. Compare S.P. genetics to a long list of other likely breeds
2. Compare S.P. genetics to other dexters
3. Compare S.P. Y-chromosome to other typical Dexter y-chromosomes
The three tests combined tell us that Saltaire Platinum is as purebred as any other pure Dexter.
Judy, I remember you envisioning such a test a dozen ago. Back then, people doubted that such a test could ever exist. You get credit for thinking of it before most anyone else.
Concerning the holes in Platinum's distant pedigree, they are no different than the holes in Parndon Bullfinch's pedigree. Those holes could have been Guernsey, or Red Poll, or Dexter. In both Bullfinch and Platinum's case, there is no record of any other breed, so the best assumption is that those holes in the pedigree were unknown Dexters.
The good news for everyone, is that a few old holes in old pedigrees are meaningless, because the purebreeding process can essentially repair those holes. Continual selection for key Dexter traits, generation after generation, helps purify the breed and eliminates any off-breed influences.
Horns were never the most important feature of Dexters and that's why dehorning was allowed.
The key historical features of Dexters are
Small Frame Shorter Legs Thick beefy body Milkable udders Super easy to manage by anyone.
You'll never win the horned/hornless debate because so many horned breeders dehorn some of their animals.. but you could help encourage all breeders including hornless breeders to keep the old original 1900 Dexter Breed Standard in mind, as they make selection decisions..... You might bemoan the absence of horns in some animals, but at least you would appreciate all their other very traditional Dexter features.
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Post by jamshundred on Feb 23, 2017 14:33:48 GMT
You miss the most important feature Kirk. . .. . .. DWARFISM.
Dexter cattle were founded as a dwarf breed. The description of the early Dexters describe dwarfism, not miniaturized cattle. How many of your cows have the large heads with the wide forehead, dish faces, and those wide set eyes with such softness and soul within their depths?
The characteristics we value in Dexters all descend from the DWARF cattle. As the cattle are minaturized and the dwarfism removed.. . . . important traits like the forage conversion are lost.
History tells the tale of non-dwarf cattle. One herd book. Two breeds. Two body types. Long Legs - Kerry Short legs - Dwarf Dexter
The NON-DWARF cattle dwindled through the years to borderline extinct. As a matter of fact, in the US, I don't think there is an animal existing with a full blood pedigree is there?
The DWARF cattle had their niche market. . . . . until ... . . . . .there was a concerted effort by owners of non-dwarf cattle who found competition for sales did not favor the larger animal to prejudice buyers against them. . and then shortly after the turn of the century the test for chondrodysplasia was identified, and the fear-mongering elevated to a greater degree, and the animals who inspired this unique and special breed were slaughtered in heart-breaking numbers. Were it not for a few of us who have fought to see the history of the breed and the value of the dwarf animals preserved with both potential and existing owners educated. . .. the numbers of dwarf Dexters would have dwindled to extinction as well. What preserves the Dexter breed are the superior traits found in the dwarf cattle. Read that again. The Dexter cattle breed is sustained by the superior traits found in Dwarf cattle. Even to the point that imposters without those traits are benefiting.
The Kerry cattle became extinct for a reason. Dexters will be next if they continue to lose the valued traits carried on the dwarf genes. The polled FAD will fade. Is there really a viable market for miniaturized cattle? Miniaturizing the breed without retaining the dwarf characteristics will be as detrimental to the breed as the oversizing will be. There is an argument to be made for my position. It is all the other breeds who have miniaturized and yet struggle for a market. The market for replicas may have a bit of a longer lifeline, but those who market them usually target the first flow of greedy and move on to the next con.
Judy
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Post by lakeportfarms on Feb 23, 2017 17:07:38 GMT
Now that a test is available, the dwarf Dexter presently and in the future certainly will be a market where the demand exceeds the supply. Kirk (and others like him) will always make the argument that the dwarf Dexter can't breed true. It may be a correct argument, however most who seek the dwarf Dexter don't see it as a problem. I have many different markets I can serve with my dwarf Dexters. Those who want dwarf Dexters, I have them. Those who don't want dwarf Dexters, I have them. Those who want larger framed or long leg Dexters, I can produce those too. Quite a few of my dwarf cows, bred to a nice bull, can produce very short non-carriers. My short, small, dwarf bull, bred to a nice non-carrier cow, can also produce some very nice, very short, non-carrier cows and bulls.
Regarding polled vs. horned, even with dehorned Dexters, there is a different head shape to the polled head. Especially with the bulls. Some of us find the polled head shape unappealing. I've encountered others who have the same thoughts. They don't really want horns, but don't like the polled head shape. There are other things that seem to go along with polled. A recent discussion focused on loose sheaths on bulls. A number of years ago, I attended an AGM. The winning bull had a loose sheath and penis that dragged the ground as he was paraded around the ring. He was polled.
And last of all, I'll say it one more time, the issue with polled is that there was all kinds of opportunity for "improvement" in the Dexter breed once the polled floodgates were opened. Want a bit more beef on your Dexter? Shop around for a Lowline Angus to mix in. Oh, that took a bit away from the udder? Just mix a little Jersey back in. On and on it goes...long before genotyping and parent verification became an issue. I actually think these were reasons why it finally became too much to bear, and the ADCA started pushing for genotyping after there were too many examples of Dexters looking like some other breed.
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Post by cascade on Feb 25, 2017 6:46:32 GMT
The 1900 Breed Standard said 100% of Dexters must have shorter legs and thick bodies. That's not Chondrodysplasia. Chondrodysplasia is a lethal genetic bone disease that gives 50% defective dwarfs, 25% long legs, and 25% dead deformed calves. The 1909 Royal Dublin Society paper by professor Wilson explained that Chondrodysplasia and the dead calves was a problem to be eliminated, and that true-breeding short Dexters were the true Dexters. Most polled Dexters have perfect male attachments. This homozygous polled A2/A2 Dexter bull has a perfect attachment (still breeding at age 13). Many horned bulls have loose male attachments There is no proven linkage between horn status and male attachments. Polled Dexters are DNA-proven to be purebred Dexters.
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Post by bruff64 on Feb 25, 2017 10:29:48 GMT
If you posted that photo of the red polled bull on a random website of cattle breeders and asked what breed of cattle is it I would bet no one would come back and say "Dexter". Seriously, how can you look at that bull and identify it with the historical Dexter breed. Red Poll or Red Angus is my first impression. I bet I could post that on CattleToday and rave about my new Red Poll bull and get high fives. This is how breeds are lost to upgrading. But, on the other hand it is good for Traditional breeders as this example makes the point precisely. The divide will widen and the new polled Dexter breed will (does actually) have it's own identity. Look at the effort that goes into justifying the new breed of Polled Dexter. it is "laughable" really. It would have been easier to raise miniature Herefords if you wanted beef animals in a short legged package. They breed true short every time and you would not have to go to all this effort. And they don't have the ball and chain of upgrading. But of course that would mean one would have to follow strict breed standards and not cheat with upgrading.
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Post by cascade on Feb 25, 2017 13:20:42 GMT
You so-called "Traditionalists" haven't even read the 1900 Dexter Breed Standard that says Dexters must be red or black and must all have shorter legs and thick bodies and be compact. The 1900 dexter breed standard describes a red or black beef frame, but with a milky udder. Here's a daughter (Cascade's Shade) of that red bull above. She meets the 1900 Dexter Breed Standard perfectly, including the udder... Except that her horns were prevented from growing via a natural gene (the 1900 breed standard doesn't say whether interfering with horn growth is acceptable or not) That's her udder with a two-month old calf keeping her milked. Imagine what that udder would look like with the calf removed for a few hours. This is what traditional Dexters are supposed to look like according to the 1900 Dexter Breed Standard.
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Post by bruff64 on Feb 25, 2017 15:15:51 GMT
"The 1900 dexter breed standard describes a red or black beef frame, but with a milky udder"
Again, a whole lot of embellishment on your part. I have been to Ireland many times and it is very clear that the appeal of these cattle in the 1800's was for their milk qualities and small size which did not stress the small holders resources. Very little mention historically on the merits of beef, which could not be stored on an island where no ice occurs. But there are endless accounts relavent to the ability of this small native breed to produce milk, cheese and butter. The Dexter was a milk cow first, beef traits were secondary by a long shot. Your cherry picking of the standard does not remake the Traditional Dexter into a facsimile of your imposter upgrades.
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Post by cascade on Feb 25, 2017 18:58:18 GMT
The history that you think you know about Dexters, is actually the history of Kerry cattle. It was the Kerry that was a relatively small and efficient dual/triple purpose cow utilized by poor under-educated Irish hill folks in the 1700's and 1800's
The exceptionally smaller type Kerry in a group of Kerries were called Dexter Kerry ("Dexter" means short and stocky in certain old irish dialects). Up until about 1890, any short and stocky cow was said to be "Dexter" in shape, but there was no Dexter Breed before about 1890.
Most new breeds of any sort of animals come about by some folks noticing some unique individuals with unique and "special" traits in older existing breeds, then isolating those few unique individuals into their own isolated breeding groups and inventing a new breed.
In about the 1870's and 1880's in the UK, many smart folks started to understand the usefulness of pure-breeding and started to develop the idea of breed registries and pedigrees to aid in breed improvement.
In about 1890, some rather well-off and well-educated Irish folks decided to create a new separate Dexter breed, and start a Dexter Breed Registry. A Kerry breed Registry was started at the same time.
In selecting animals to go into the new separate Dexter breed, they accepted ANY cattle from ANY breed that was very short and stocky and beefy. They wanted the new Dexter breed to be a short and stocky beef breed (that also could be milked). They wanted the Dexter breed to be VERY different from the Kerry breed (otherwise, there was no reason for the Dexter breed to exist).
The First Dexter Herdbook was published in the 1890's.
In 1908, Professor Wilson of the Royal Dublin College of Science wrote that one of the key breeds that were used in inventing Dexters, was shorter members of the red Devon breed (a beefy red breed) mixed with shorter beefier members of the Kerry breed.
Dexters were exported to the UK and US, and the Dexter breed started dying out in Ireland in the 1920's. For most of the 1900's, there were no purebred registered Dexters in Ireland... Today, Ireland has a few Dexters imported from England.
The "Dexters" that were imported to America in the early 1900's were of questionable heritage because their pedigrees didn't fully trace back to the first Irish Herdbook and likely had a mishmash of genetics.
No living Dexters today trace 100% of their ancestry back to the first Irish Herdbook.
The 1900 Dexter Breed Standard is very clear in describing a short, compact, beef frame:
"Neck short, deep and thick, and well set into the shoulders, which, when viewed in front, should be wide, showing thickness through the heart, the breast coming well forward.
Body.--Shoulders of medium thickness, full and well filled in behind, hips wide, quarters thick and deep and well sprung, flat and wide across loins, well ribbed up, straight underline, udder well forward, and broad behind with well placed teats of moderate size, legs short (especially from knee to fetlock), strong, and well placed under body, which should be as close to the ground as possible."
That's a 100% beef frame
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Post by jamshundred on Feb 25, 2017 21:11:39 GMT
NO. Kirk! The 1900 standard ( which can be found in it's entirety in the historical section on this group as it was published in Herd Book 1 of the English Kerry and Dexter Society as well as the earliest description and standard published in Herd Book 1 of the Royal Dublin Society in 1890) describes a DUAL purpose animal, just as the first line of the standard states: " The Dexter is essentially both a milk-producing and a beef-making breed". In the mid to 1800's most photos I have seen depict ALL breeds as very heavy bodied. Then, like the devastation taking place in the Dexter breed, humans decided they knew better than nature.
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