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Post by jamshundred on Sept 6, 2014 22:30:14 GMT
Above copied from another thread.
Hans, I saw this and red at the same time. I have been breeding chondro carriers for over two decades. In the beginning there was a lot of secrecy about dwarf genetics. When I had a buldog calf born on my farm around the turn of the century ( it took a few years before I even had one!), I sent the photo to the Bulletin editor, Richard Henry and asked him to publish it (and I published it on the internet). I'd never seen a photo of one at that time. Mr. Henry was reluctant because there had always been an effort to NOT discuss the chondro issue. But he did publish it in a small column near the back of the Bulletin and it remained there for several years. He did not name the owner, farm, or cow from which the bulldog was born although I asked it to be done.
Once the test for chondrodysplasia was developed there was a strong concerted effort by long-leg breeders to diss the dwarf cattle. Major. When I was researching in 2004 and 05 the traditional bloodlines I was broken hearted to find herd after herd where these wonderful little cows were culled because of the negativity that was being promoted . . .. by LEADERSHIP members. In PA there was an entire herd of 14 cows taken to the sale barn.
The Dexter breed is a DWARF breed, founded on the genetic traits of dwarfism. It is the dwarf cattle of which the traits in the brochure are written, for it is the dwarf cattle that possess the genetic ability to maximize the benefits of the forage they consume, it is the dwarf cattle of which the personalities are described. Do you think more than ONE member of leadership today is aware of this? I think not. I think the leadership is ignorant of the very breed over which they have assigned themselves stewardship. It is very frustrating to watch what has happened to this breed! Accomplished due to three factors; (1) ignorance (2) greed ( 3) fear of horns. I am not sure in which order, but I think I have number one in the right position.
How many Dexter owners do you suppose know that the Dexter breed was established on dwarf cattle? Both the Kerry breed and the Dexter breed were organized into herds at the same time. It has often been said the two breeds are similar. . . . and from looking through the earliest records and photos an excellent position can be made that the proportionate taller cattle were called Kerry and the smaller dwarf cattle were called Dexters. You will find the names of early owners in both herd books, and since the animals were all registered without parentage in the beginning. . . . they were placed in each breed based on their characteristics. DEXTERS WERE A DWARF BREED FOUNDED ON THE DWARF CHARACTERISTICS AND THEIR SMALL STATURE.
I do not believe that the majority of owners world-wide know this today. . .thus the negative push to rid the breed of the very basis of their genetics. They absolutely do NOT realize that there ARE genetic traits we value that are connected to the DWARF genes. We cannot allow this ignorance which leads to the culling of dwarf cattle to continue in America as it has in a couple of other countries and with the availability of world-wide communication now. . . we need to make sure that other countries realize if they want to have DEXTERS. . . . than chondrodysplasia must be kept in the breed.
This culling of the dwarf cattle and the importation of upgraded bulls from LARGE beef breeds has resulted in drastic changes in this breed in size and phenotype in a relative short period of time. Without leadership protecting this breed. . . .just look at what has happened! It is deplorable.
Those with loud voices have owners terrified of having a "bulldog" calf. Baloney! As I read Dexter chat groups now I am astonished at the number of calf and cow deaths connected to calving. What on earth is going on? They should more fear dystocia births than bulldogs. Chondro cows do not die having bulldog calves! And a rare occasion indeed that one needs to be pulled. Owners are ignorant of the breed they own. .. and leadership has done nothing to remedy that! They have failed miserably on every major issue that has faced this breed including the ongoing one of oversized calves and oversized animals. Fear not though. . .. . they are determined to find out if A2 milk is really good for you to drink!
Judy
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Post by lakeportfarms on Sept 7, 2014 11:33:11 GMT
Judy, you're absolutely correct about the dystocia concern vs. the bulldog concern. For $10 (or maybe $20 if you don't want to run ANY other tests) and a little bit of management, you can completely avoid a bulldog. On the other hand, no amount of money will protect you from a 65 lb. calf out of a homozygous polled bull. I've known more than a few that have occurred including one here on our own farm from a heifer we purchased out of a polled bull, that had been bred back to her sire. She had been bred just a couple of weeks before we bought her, and Sheril and I debated giving her a lute shot, but we only had our chondro bull at the time and having trouble finding somebody to AI, so we let the breeding stand. I would have been better off terminating it and breeding her to Mike with the risk of a bulldog. As it was, she had a 65 lb. bull calf, which died while we assisted with delivery, and we nearly lost the heifer after. She wasn't right for 5-6 months after that ordeal.
I'm aware of a homozygous polled bull that bred to around 10 cows, requiring 2 C-sections in just one breeding season. Both calves in the 65 lb range. Not sure what the other weights were but I wouldn't doubt they were also up there in that range.
This calving season for us, carrier bull(s) bred to non-carrier cows, average calving weight of 27 lbs for both heifers and bull calves. No calving issues.
I'm about at the point where I'm so frustrated that I'm going to call those who keep yelling "bulldog" as a reason to avoid chondro positive calves, "stupid". If you can't figure out there is a simple inexpensive test to avoid breeding two carriers together, if you can't figure out that it is a simple matter of pulling tail hairs, licking a stamp, and having an e mail address for your results, and if you can't figure out that if you have a carrier bull you need to sell your carrier heifers, have a good fence, or just run carrier cows and a non-carrier bull, then maybe you shouldn't have cattle in the first place, because you're likely to also do something stupid around them and get yourself killed.
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Post by Donlin Dexters on Sept 8, 2014 3:11:01 GMT
Lakeportfarms: Can you clarify for me please re your average 27lb calves were dwarfs? Or a mixture of both dwarfs and nons? Sorry to sound a little silly but we have been under the impression that birth weights were between 17-22kg (37 - 48.5lbs). We have always been very much under the minimum and have been wondering why. We do keep the mums in a body condition score of 5-6, probably closer to 6 as it seems easier and cheaper just to maintain the 'show condition' than having it fluctuate, which we would expect would have calves at their full potential weight. We have had only one calf come close to 17 kilos and his day old weight was 16.4 kilos (36.16lbs). He is an obligate non-dwarf and to us he looked huge at birth, so we weighed for the first time and have continued to do so for 2014. For 2014 our third heifer to arrive (obligate non-dwarf) had a day old weight of 11 kilos ( 24.25bs.) We had to check twice even though we knew on sight she was a little girl as she was the same size as her 6 day old first cousin who may possibly be a dwarf (fingers are so very much crossed). So we aren’t doing something wrong after all Oh and day old weight is generally being weighed the next day when mums are a little more relaxed about us being near bub, plus its now standard practice for comparison reasons.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Sept 8, 2014 11:30:26 GMT
The majority of our calves are dwarfs it seems, and the dwarfs do have a lower weight it seems by about 8-10 lbs. (4kg or so). This pulls down our average of course. I do record it and put it on a spreadsheet so I can track the numbers on a herd basis but also on an individual cow and bull basis. There are certainly differences in calving weights among bulls, but also differences depending on how the momma cows are fed prior to calving. Since most of our calves have been out of Mike, we've probably been a bit spoiled by his low calving weights. We have a non-carrier bull, who has thrown some pretty large (for us) calves in the 22kg range. But these were from cows that we had acquired just a couple of months before they calved, and the prior owner fed a good deal of grain to them. I've found that an all grass/hay diet seems to significantly reduce the calving weights, as his calves out of the same cows this past season were a full 10-15 lbs lighter. All but two of our cows are friendly enough immediately after calving that we can get in there and check them out, even carry them off to weigh them. The two who are not we don't mess with for a week or two unless it is absolutely necessary. To me, calving weights are extremely important. We usually have an idea, but we run the cows/bulls together year round, and I rarely have an exact date for calving unless I happen to see some breeding activity taking place on a specific cow. If I do, I record the date on Google Calendar as a recurring event, every 20 days 15 times, and then try to observe the cow when the reminder pops up on my phone. It worked really well a month or so ago; the event popped up on my phone while (or should I say whilst?) Sheril and I were out to lunch and doing some shopping, and when we returned to the farm 2 hours later there was a little heifer calf on the ground...lol Google is getting pretty scary now
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2014 18:54:15 GMT
I have never had calves that small. our smallest to date was 30 LBS.most of ours are in the 40s. I did have a 55 pounder out of our polled cow this year but she did not have any issues with it. another issue maybe it is directly related to the polled or maybe it just tagged along with the genetics. They tend to have rather short big round heads. compared to our legacy ones that tend to have smaller longer muzzle. I have even seen some comment else where about how nice and wide a muzzle looked on a calf. Nice for who? The cow that is trying to pass the beach ball vs a cone.
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Post by Donlin Stud on Sept 8, 2014 21:02:50 GMT
Thanks Lakeportfarms for the info. We are not feeling as if we maybe doing something wrong after all. Our moos diet is predominantly grass, hays etc but we do feed a little grain ( nuts and horse stud mix) in with lots of chaff of various types but it's only a treat. Never enough to fill them and this is done about two maybe three times a week. 2014 calves are from our two young boys but both are non-dwarfs. 2015 calves are going to be very interesting in many ways as we introduce young dwarf Bailey to 'bull-hood'. Weights, dwarf ratios and much anticipated conformation as majority will be half sister/brother matings -very excited about that
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Post by Donlin Stud on Sept 8, 2014 21:30:50 GMT
Hi Judy.
May I borrow some of your text above for our website?
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Post by genebo on Sept 8, 2014 22:44:56 GMT
Since 2004, my Dexter calves born here have weighed between 25 and 35 pounds, regardless of whether they were dwarf or not.
A Dexter/Shorthorn cross cow, bred to my Dexter bull, gave birth to a 45 pound calf, non-dwarf.
Brenn has been available for AI for years, now, and has sired a lot of calves away from Paradise Farm. The largest Dexter calf was just one that weighed 55 pounds. All the rest were in the same weight range as the ones born here.
I have sold a lot of semen to farmers with other breeds. Some was for the A2/A2, some was for the chondro, hoping to get a dwarf calf, but most was for the small calves that they would get. A Charolais breeder has repeatedly bought semen to breed his heifers, so they will have a small calf, conditioning them so they will later be able to have a calf by a Charolais bull (Charolais calves are huge!).
Calf size varies by the line of descendancy, being attributed to the cow as well as the bull. The offspring from a bull or cow that is known to produce large calves can themselves be expected to produce large calves. It is a factor to use in determining your breeding plan.
We need a good list of the most important traits to consider in a breeding plan. Calf size certainly has a place in the list.
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Post by lonecowhand on Sept 8, 2014 22:58:16 GMT
genebo, that is a great idea, it would be most helpful.
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Post by cascade on Sept 27, 2014 21:41:58 GMT
Dexters certainly are a small breed, but well over 90% are NOT dwarfs. A small minority of dexters (and many other breeds of cattle too) have the defective ACAN gene, which causes dwarfism. calfology.com/library/wiki/dwarfism-condrodysplasia" Dwarfism, or chondrodysplasia, is an inherited defect reported in many breeds of cattle. The severity of presentation is highly variable, but in general calves are born with a shortened stature, and deformity of the head, spine, and limbs. Chondrodysplasia is a heritable defect of cattle, and has been described in multiple breeds. Unfortunately no one gene is responsible for the condition, but the end result is a failure of proper cartilage development, which causes stunting of the skeletal system. For example, Dexter cattle, which have become famous for the incidence of “bulldog” calves, have been identified to carry a single mutation in the ACAN gene. This gene is recessive, with incomplete penetrance, meaning that depending on how many copies of the gene a calf inherits, a the defect may vary in severity. A calf that inherits two copies of the mutation will develop the severe lethal phenotype, but a calf that inherits only one copy of the mutation may show a range of severity..."
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Post by Donlin dexters on Sept 28, 2014 20:23:56 GMT
And thank goodness for the Chondro gene, or dexters wouldn't be
Love to know where your figure of over 90% of 'dexters' are non-dwarfs?
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Post by genebo on Sept 28, 2014 22:12:19 GMT
The statements that Kirk linked to and quoted weren't lies when they were first written, years before any understanding of Dexter dwarfism existed, Chalk it up to ignorance. It's hard to say the same about reposting the old misinformation.
The link is full of it's own contradictions. In one place it claims that there is no one gene responsible for chondrodysplasia, yet as a bibliography, cite Julie Cavanaugh's research which actually tells which gene is responsible. Citing a contradiction like this is enough to disqualify the citer as being well-informed or well-intentioned.
I won't pick apart the rest of the bad information. He knows better. He thrives upon this subject. He has chosen to only raise non-traditional Dexters without the dwarfing trait, and that is fine with me. If only he would grant those of us who have chosen a more altruistic goal, that same privilege.
It wasn't that long ago that the ADCA Ethics Committe failed to act upon complaints of this kind of Dexter-bashing, because he elected to stop. Now he's back. That shows you the good of letting someone get away by going away.
I think it's time to go away again, before the Breed suffers any more damage.
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Post by cascade on Sept 28, 2014 22:40:08 GMT
Love to know where your figure of over 90% of 'dexters' are non-dwarfs? ADCA lists 31,600 total dexters in the world's largest registry Only 493 are listed as chondro-dwarfs Further, even if every dexter breeder fully bred for chondro, you'd have a maximum of 50% dwarfs. Even the biggest fan of chondro-dwarfs can only produce 50% chondro-dwarfs because conndro-dwarfs can't breed true. Chrondro-dwarfs are not a true breed. They're hybrids and hybrids don't breed true.
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Post by cascade on Sept 28, 2014 23:02:55 GMT
The link is full of it's own contradictions. In one place it claims that there is no one gene responsible for chondrodysplasia, yet as a bibliography, cite Julie Cavanaugh's research which actually tells which gene is responsible. The statement you refer to can seem to be contradictory until you examine it closely. The article is talking about the Chondrodysplasia condition in ALL breeds of cattle, not just Dexters. Chondrodysplasia is an inherited condition of cartilage and bone malformation found throughout most all mammals including many breeds of cattle. The link explains that the Chondrodysplasia condition is NOT caused by one single gene throughout all breeds of cattle, but in Dexters in America, there is a single cause (a defective ACAN gene). Re-read it in the light of this understanding and it will make better sense to you. "Chondrodysplasia is a heritable defect of cattle, and has been described in multiple breeds. Unfortunately no one gene is responsible for the condition [across all breeds], but the end result is a failure of proper cartilage development, which causes stunting of the skeletal system. For example, Dexter cattle, which have become famous for the incidence of “bulldog” calves, have been identified to carry a single mutation in the ACAN gene " calfology.com/library/wiki/dwarfism-condrodysplasia PS. I love dexter cattle... a small, gentle, dual-purpose breed that's VERY easy to raise. In our herd, we prefer them to be free of lethal genes like PHA and Chondrodysplasia, but some breeders have learned to live with those lethal genes with lots of ongoing DNA testing required.
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Post by morningstarfarm on Sept 28, 2014 23:17:49 GMT
Love to know where your figure of over 90% of 'dexters' are non-dwarfs? ADCA lists 31,600 total dexters in the world's largest registry Only 493 are listed as chondro-dwarfs Further, even if every dexter breeder fully bred for chondro, you'd have a maximum of 50% dwarfs. Even the biggest fan of chondro-dwarfs can only produce 50% chondro-dwarfs because conndro-dwarfs can't breed true. Chrondro-dwarfs are not a true breed. They're hybrids and hybrids don't breed true. Am I correct in thinking there is no way of really knowing the correct percentage of non chondro verses chondro? Until it is required that all animals need to be tested and reported there is no way to know the true percentage.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Sept 29, 2014 0:34:05 GMT
Chondrodysplasia is going to be fairly rare with Dexters in comparison to the non-carriers. For example, we endeavor to breed as many chondro carriers as possible, by using chondro bulls on non-chondro heifers and cows, and non-carrier bulls on carrier cows. Assuming each cow will produce 12 calves in her lifetime (probably a higher number than she will actually produce) only 6 of these will be chondro carriers. Only 3 of these will be chondro positive cows. So this cow can only replace herself plus 2 more over her lifetime of 14 years with a calf every year. With the ever decreasing number of chondro positive bulls being used for breeding, the chondro Dexter is going to become more and more rare as time goes by, because many cows don't make it that long.
As most of you know, when you have something rare that is still in demand (as chondro positive Dexters are), you're going to be able to easily find buyers for them. With our 50% non-carriers, we also have a market for those who want a non-carrier, either bull or heifer. So we can serve both markets for Dexters, we're not just limited to the one. I get on average 3-4 calls/month from people looking specifically for chondro carrier cows. They do a search on the ADCA site for chondro, and our name pops up with a long list of them. I don't have any to sell, because we're expanding our chondro cow herd, and will slowly be thinning the numbers of non-carrier cows. If anybody wants to develop a chondro cow herd of their own, they have two options...travel all over the country and pick them up one or two at a time, or use a chondro positive bull over their non-carrier cows and wait a long time for those chondro calves to mature and finally calve themselves.
I prefer the more severe version of the chondro carrier, one that I can visually tell either at or shortly after birth. You can certainly tell when they start to mature. For us, the testing isn't really necessary. These more severe short carriers also tend to throw shorter legs on their non-carrier calves. Of course, the legs are only one of the clues that you look for to help determine chondro status.
On the other thread, where I posted the short cows, Kirk mentioned that they are big cows with short legs. Actually they are not big cows, the dun one in front, for example, doesn't even come up to my waist.
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Post by wvdexters on Sept 29, 2014 16:19:30 GMT
Well hello Kirk, I also wonder where you get your numbers. The ADCA site, the world's largest Dexter Association as you stated; lists 1266 pages of Registered Dexters. Of these pages, only 244 pages are listed as Chondro Non-carriers. With approx. 25 animals per page....... Do the math!
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Post by jamshundred on Sept 29, 2014 17:47:22 GMT
Oh! A quote from Wiki - where anyone can type anything they want! I might even suspect it could have been you. ( smile). Dwarf Dexters are DIFFERENT than other dwarf cattle. I am going to go on wiki and write that. ( smiling again). There is NO other breed that can connect the dwarf genetics to the positive traits in Dexter cattle as the Dexters can. For other breeds it might be a genetic issue. . . . for Dexters it is the very foundation of ALL that is good.
Judy
PS. . The fact that you quote an ADCA statistical falsehood ( which I don't understand their need to misrepresent because it is obvious to the rest of the Dexter world that England is the largest registry of Dexter cattle, ( somewhere around 53-54,000 not counting the steers that ADCA counts). . . . . might give an impression that you have no respect for factual data.
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Post by cascade on Sept 29, 2014 20:41:02 GMT
Well hello Kirk, I also wonder where you get your numbers.
Go to ADCA online pedigree dextercattle.org/pedigreedb/index.htmlDon't fill in ANY search criteria, then hit the "Begin Search" button and you'll see the total number of Dexters in the Registry listed at the top 31,637 Total Dexters in the ADCA registry Now, under Chondro Status, select "Carrier" and hit the "Begin Search" button and you'll see the number of carriers listed at the top 493 Chondro-Dwarfs in the ADCA registry Further, if you select "non-carrier" and hit the "Begin Search" button, you'll see the number of tested non-carriers listed 6101 Non-Chondro-Carriers (Non Dwarfs) in the ADCA registry 6,594 total dexters with recorded statuses in the ADCA registry (6101 + 493) Of that total of 6,594 with known statuses, 93% are non-dwarfs (non-carriers) 7% are dwarfs (carriers)
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Post by cascade on Sept 29, 2014 20:58:54 GMT
In terms of new registrations per year, I believe that the ADCA is currently the largest registry, but the UK has lots of old records. This link to Chondro information appears to be current and accurate and the author is listed at the top of the article calfology.com/library/wiki/dwarfism-condrodysplasiaPS... remember that I'm on YOUR side.... I want to keep Dexters small, sweet, and easy-to-manage, with trouble-free birthing... Come visit our herd, they'll lick you till you're sore and our bulls will beg you for back rubs.
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Post by jamshundred on Sept 29, 2014 22:03:59 GMT
Kirk
Read my tips darn it !! :'. It does not matter how small and sweet and great mothers and other traits they are. . . . .if you remove the dwarfism they are NOT Dexter cattle (a dwarf breed) they are then miniaturized cattle (bred down in size). READ the brochures. Dexter cattle are NOT miniature cattle,
Those registration numbers you quote are padded. believe me. I have spread sheets of registrations where horn status was complied and every other number is blank for hundreds of numbers. want copies? This padding if numbers also affects the stats you are quoting.
ADCA has issues with honesty. Lied about Lucifer. lied about Saltaire Platinum. Lied regarding political issues and now they are lying about memberships (which are padded by giving them away) and number of bonfide US paid registrations.
Judy
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Post by jamshundred on Sept 29, 2014 22:05:50 GMT
Donlin SORRY!! Did not see that request. Of course you may. My motto is "take what you like and leave the rest"
Judy
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Post by Guest on Sept 29, 2014 22:23:36 GMT
Tell me about these different 'sides' in dexters.
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Post by cascade on Sept 29, 2014 22:41:18 GMT
The numbers I provided come directly from the ADCA online registry and anyone can go see them for themselves. Each of those numbers are backed by the individual names of cows with NO PADDING (you can even count the named cows to check the totals).... Just go look online for yourself.
31,637 Total Dexters in the ADCA registry
493 Chondro-Dwarfs in the ADCA registry
6101 Non-Chondro-Carriers (Non Dwarfs) in the ADCA registry
6,594 total dexters with recorded statuses in the ADCA registry (6101 + 493)
Of that total of 6,594 with known statuses, 93% are non-dwarfs (non-carriers) 7% are dwarfs (carriers)
Today, The vast majority of Dexters have NOTHING to do with dwarfism (even though in the ancient past when breeders knew nothing about DNA, dwarfism played a big role)
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Post by Guest on Sept 30, 2014 0:01:54 GMT
So the sides are those that breed dwarfs and those that do not?
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Post by lakeportfarms on Sept 30, 2014 1:10:35 GMT
To reply to "Guest". Anybody who breeds chondro Dexters also breeds non-chondro Dexters. So I guess as a chondro breeder I am on both sides, because I have both to sell. Actually, I have more non-chondro carriers to sell, because of the relatively rare nature of the chondro Dexters and the expected number that could be produced in the lifespan of a Dexter, it is harder to replace the chondro positive cows in your herd or expand your herd with them. It is relatively easy to acquire nice non-chondro heifers or cows, whereas the chondro heifers or cows are rarely available for purchase. If anybody takes sides, it is those who don't breed chondro, and especially those who take any opportunity to bad mouth chondro Dexters.
I actually had some hope for you Kirk, when you commented about your friend saying that "those are large cattle with short legs!". And you understand very well that the dwarfism gene can hide larger genetics in a shorter package (though you contend this is a fault), and how we can make it work to our advantage. I am happy you're keeping to the breed guidelines and breeding for smaller sizes, unlike many others out there who seem to be breeding larger and larger. You'll have a nice market for people who don't want to breed chondrodysplasia Dexters. However, Judy is right, bring the size down too much and they now become "miniature" cattle, and if they get too small, they then lose some of their utility, for beef in particular.
For example, we recently acquired a new bull to replace our long time herd sire. Both are chondrodysplasia carriers. Our new bull's dam was sired by Hedgehog III, and the new bull has definitely acquired his mother's genetics for size. He's barely 36" at 6 years old. You can imagine how short he was at 3 years of age. So you see, I can use chondro carriers with small genetics to keep our size down too, they are out there, though very rare.
Shamrock Mike, whom we have used for many years, was 39" at 9 years, but he has a very full and deep body, a very stout hind end, and is all in all a much beefier, meatier bull than Shadwell is, though Shadwell is no slouch. We acquired Shadwell for a couple of reasons; we wanted a very old lines traditional short bull to breed to a number of our traditional lines heifers and cows, we wanted to continue to breed these traditional lines for chondrodysplasia, and, although our cows are not as large as most Dexters, we wanted to continue to bring the size down a little more and set them apart from other Dexters. We should get relatively small compact non-carriers out of Shadwell because other than the chondrodysplasia gene, he would be a small compact bull as a non-carrier as well. We should get very short chondro carriersout of him too. But we have no illusions that Shadwell will produce progeny that equals the beefiness that Mike would produce. Lest you think we've given that up, we still have a number of cows that we will not be breeding to Shadwell, but instead we're using a nearly 3 year old bull that we selected that most closely resembles Mike at a similar age. We've been quite happy with his calves so far. I haven't officially measured Dylan yet, but I would guess he is around or slightly under 34" now, a few years from now he'll reach full size and I suspect he'll be close or slightly shorter than Mike.
So what we offer has some diversity...ask Olga on the other site what it was like in the old Soviet Union....I spent some time there in the early 80's from my time on the U.S cycling team. There was no such thing as diversity there at that time, you took what was available, and if there was something different, the line went around the block even though they only had enough to supply about 10% of the people who were standing in that line. We have a similar situation with our now "rare" chondro Dexters.
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Post by wvdexters on Sept 30, 2014 1:33:11 GMT
I find it so interesting that we have to go through all this again. Seems like we've done this before. Could it be (just perhaps) that the point is more to get your extreme ideas in print on this site too.
You begin with the statement that over 90% are not dwarfs. Very catchy and sounds factual. Then we go to 31,600 total animals with only 493 chondro dwarfs. Again catchy and sounds factual.
Truth of the matter is these numbers are misleading at best and completely meaningless. Truth is NO-ONE KNOWS how many there are. Not you nor I.
Now we are at of the 31,637 total Dexters only 6101 are non-dwarfs ... Looking a little different now. Compare the statements given here. Facts, yes, but oh how different they look when read and what different conclusions are drawn. Goes to show how numbers and facts can be manipulated to show completely different things.
TRUTH is - Of the 31,637 total dexters in the ADCA registry only a small percentage have a listed chondro status, 20%. The status of the other 80% of the herd is unknown. Anyone's guess. This is a FACTUAL Statement and the TRUTH!
You see, Dexter Cattle (the breed) come in TWO BODY TYPES:
There are two varieties of Dexters, short legged and long legged. Milk and beef production and other characteristics are generally the same for both types.
Taken from the AMERICAN DEXTER CATTLE ASSOCIATION website itself. Not from Wikipedia.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Sept 30, 2014 2:24:41 GMT
Let's not forget that non-carrier new registrations where both sire and dam are tested will, even though not tested (or genotyped which is another matter altogether), will show obligate status on the ADCA site. Because the ADCA will not enter a chondro positive Dexter without a test, it takes additional testing and effort to report the carriers on the ADCA site.
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Post by Donlin Stud on Oct 1, 2014 21:19:19 GMT
Love to know where your figure of over 90% of 'dexters' are non-dwarfs? ADCA lists 31,600 total dexters in the world's largest registry Only 493 are listed as chondro-dwarfs Further, even if every dexter breeder fully bred for chondro, you'd have a maximum of 50% dwarfs. Even the biggest fan of chondro-dwarfs can only produce 50% chondro-dwarfs because conndro-dwarfs can't breed true. Chrondro-dwarfs are not a true breed. They're hybrids and hybrids don't breed true. Until there is mandatory genetic testing for chondro - your figures are a guess at the best.
Chondro dwarfs are not a true breed??? Cascade you are here to obviously stir trouble.
Consider yourself ignored from here on in
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Post by lonecowhand on Oct 1, 2014 22:50:09 GMT
Hi Donlin, Think of Cascade's comments as a Catalyst, which causes a reaction but remains unchanged. It's good to get riled up and articulate in defense of something valuable to you. Makes the glue more binding. Your comments are valid, don't stop, please.
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