Celtic Polled Mutation can Occur Repeatedly

[cascade]

Folks with an elementary understanding of genetics typically believe that mutations are essentially unique, so if you find two animals with the same gene mutation, the assumption in the past was that they both descended from a common ancestor, where that original mutation occurred.

That is often the case, but there are many exceptions to that.

Genetic mutation hotspots can occur, where a gene has a particular weak spot that can commonly "mutate" in the exact same way at relatively high frequencies, in unrelated individuals. These hotspots which can trigger identical mutations in unrelated individuals, have even been known to fool some genetics professionals who aren't well versed in the science of genetic hot-spots.

A horn regulator gene common in Celtic cattle, may contain such a hotspot. This hotspot would explain why the Celtic Polled Mutation can repeatedly arise as fresh mutations in many different breeds of cattle.

[jamshundred]

Name a few PARENTAGE CONFIRMED mutations in the Dexter breed.

Many things in life "could" happen, "might" happen, but don't happen.

Woodmagic was a closed herd for several decades.   Never a polled mutation

Colorado was a closed herd for for almost FORTY years  . . ... . never a mutation.


Here's one for you.. . ......CHILLINGHAM cattle. . . . . . . CLOSED herd. . . . . . . . . records exist since the 1600's and known to be on the estate as far back as the 1300's.     NEVER A POLLED MUTATION.


It is a pack of bull promoted by those of you who wish desperately to legitimize the illegitimate.

[hurondexter]

I agree with Kirk.  I'm thinking there have been dozens if not more additional polled mutations that have occurred in the Dexter breed more frequently in the past 20 years, than all other breeds combined for 500 years prior to Godstone Esmeralda.      Why take a chance with a heterozygous polled bull and horned cow, when you can breed him to a homozygous cow?

[cascade]

1. Mutations are simply copy errors in the DNA copying process. Every sperm cell has about 100 mutations. Every egg cell has about 10 mutations.

2. The Polled mutation occurs perhaps 1 in 5000 births on average. No single herd has had anywhere near that number of calves, so you would expect that most herds would never see such a mutation, just like most herds don't have a set of triplets born.

3. Until about the 1990's, records weren't kept as to whether a dexter had horns or not. There was no place on registration paperwork to record horns vs. no horns.... The Chillingham herd has never kept records as to horns vs no horns. It's very possible that a polled calf was born at Chillingham.

4. Parentage testing wasn't widely available nor widely practiced until this current decade.

5. People who dehorn Dexters could easily have a polled mutation go unnoticed.

6. People who aren't educated about genetics, could have a polled mutation and not give it much thought. A little polled bull calf could be steered and eaten without much thought, by average Dexter breeders in the past.

Here's a likely polled mutation that was recorded. Notice the parents and grandparents are all horned.

www.dextercattle.org/pedigreedb/ponyweb.cgi?horse=6202

[jamshundred]

There was opportunity to DNA parentage confirm that animal.  There is no data that it was done.    *I* was told that the animal was entered into the registry under threat of lawsuit, which is also the reason given for Saltaire Platinum being in the registry.    The association did not have the means to fight a lawsuit.   They also didn't have the guts.

A mutation HAS to be DNA parentage verified for TWO generations.


Here is the bottom line.   Saltaire Platinum was not a mutation.   His DNA markers will not support mutation.

So. . .. if the argument is to be made for mutation. . .. . then Kirk needs to locate a parentage verified mutation first.

Judy

[cascade]

1. Saltaire Platinum himself had a polled sire. Nobody has ever questioned whether Saltaire Platinum's two parents were his actual two parents (polled father and horned mother). Doing a parentage test on Saltaire Platinum himself almost certainly would have shown that his direct two parents (including his polled father) are accurate. There was zero reason to dispute that he was the son of his polled sire.

2. The ADCA had no rules upon which they could reject Saltaire Platinum. Directors who wanted to reject him were breaking the rules. Those Directors should have been dismissed on ethics charges.

3. This other polled mutation had already been accepted into the ADCA registry with no fuss.

www.dextercattle.org/pedigreedb/ponyweb.cgi?horse=6202

[jamshundred]

Kirk,

I beg to differ with your assertion.  I know people involved.  There WAS a fuss.    

Furthermore, you will see few descendents of this cow.   Ask yourself why!   There is a reason.   I know the reason.  I am not telling you the reason so you have the ability to go find out for yourself.

Judy

[cascade]

The point I'm making in this thread, is that mutations are errors in the DNA copying process and they occur regularly. Each of us had about 100 copy errors in the DNA we got from our parents.

Someone over on Facebook made a comment that because Dexters have the Celtic Polled gene, then that was proof that it wasn't a fresh mutation from within Dexters. That is a false statement.

The Celtic version of the polled gene can pop up repeatedly as a fresh mutation in many different breeds of cattle.

[lakeportfarms]

May 25, 2017 20:01:59 GMT cascade said:

Someone over on Facebook made a comment that because Dexters have the Celtic Polled gene, then that was proof that it wasn't a fresh mutation from within Dexters. That is a false statement.

Wait!  I thought you were removed from the page?  How would you know about that?  Maybe Al Nichols told you?

[jamshundred]

Speaking of that Facebook thread,. .  .. . I am personally. .. . . . DISGUSTED.     I watched a self-serving breeder who speaks out of both sides of the mouth and has been in the past found ethically challenged by the ADCA board of Directors attempt to besmirch the reputation and committed efforts of Professor Charles Plumb, the original preservationist of the American Dexter herd, and then the Logsden family who DID preserve the breed and organize it's breeders.   Were it not for their esteemed efforts there would be no Dexter breed in America.
Here are the words of Professor Plumb regarding the original entries in the Kerry and Dexter Herd book #1- USA.    Here they are so all can read them. . including the crone who never manages to tell the whole story.  Just the part that will gain favor with the in crowd.   POS


 

[poco]

Always at war, always spewing hatred. This kind of verbiage says more about you than the one you rant about.
You call my friend a "POS"? Such substantial, adult behavior.

Danny

[lonecowhand]

Good Golly, Cascade. Still defending the indefensible "Miracle Mutation Theory" , even after capitulating the likelihood of error in a prior post?

Poco, I think you would have to have been in Judy's shoes for the last few decades of abuse to relate to her reactions. It's hard to defend an unpopular opinion, especially when monetary gain of those in power is at stake.
If you notice, she was venting without using the object of her complaints' name. I don't know who she is referring to, obviously you do.

It's Judy who allows these divergent opinion posts to continue in the name of "freedom of speech"...

[poco]

Since I'm privy to the thread and have followed it, I know the subject of her hatred.
I would have thought that, if you have a problem with someone, you can say it to their face. That's all.

[jamshundred]

LOL.  Here's your problem Poco.  You are a newbie and you don't know as much as you think you do.   And before you had a "friend" so have others.  Others who had information, and knowledge to share.  Friends are always those with information or connections and when no longer useful, friendships are often betrayed.  Indeed, you have much to learn,  but right now.....YOU are a conduit to info so you are dear indeed.    Info you likely do not realize is being drawn from you by an artist.    After all. What'a friend for?  you will figure it out.....or not.

[cascade]

Every baby cow and human that's born has about 100 new genetic mutations on average.

Both the human genome and the cattle genome have about 3 billion base pairs in their genetics. When new cells are created, these 3 billion base pairs of genetic information must be copied. The copy process is very accurate, but a few mistakes (about 100 per offspring) are made.

It would take a miracle for an offspring to NOT have a genetic mutation.

[jamshundred]

Dear Lord, will you never stop with the scientific mumbo-jumbo that establishes absolutely nothing of any value!   If this were true, and IF it had any impact at all, the Chillingham herd of cattle, now sequestered behind estate walls for nigh on SEVEN HUNDRED years would look like anything but Chillingham cattle.    It is the choices of mankind that have changed species. . . not nature.    

What IS it that you think you are accomplishing or that you hope to accomplish?   Do you think your nonsense will convince me to cross out my traditional and Legacy cattle , which have the unique and quite recognizable phenotypes of original Dexter cattle, with lines that have FIVE outcrosses in their pedigree and resemble several modern breeds in their photos, ( Black Angus, Red Angus, Red Poll, Lowline come to mind and even Jersey with those many that have mealy mouths)?
Do you think you will convince any other traditonal or Legacy breeders that these imported upgrades are just what we seek rather than what we have?   Or do you troll to try and convince the novice and the newbie they have not been duped?

Just what IS the purpose of the drivel?   We can talk mutation ( or outcrossing) when my Dexters begin to have baby blue eyes the color of a clear blue summer sky.  

[cascade]

My purpose is to educate others in the true science and true history and true facts of cattle and the Dexter breed.

Chillingham cattle have always had a degree of human management including, at times, human selection and human culling. There were even periods where some bull calves were castrated.

All Dexters have scores of outcrosses behind them due to wandering bulls and accidental breedings. The only thing that keeps Dexters looking and performing as Dexters is ongoing selection and culling toward a breed standard.

I support the idea of traditionalists exactly following the first written breed standard of 1900. It's the only objective definition of "traditional" that can stand up to scrutiny.

I find it laughable when someone has a 1100 pound dehorned dun (brown) dexter bull and they claim it's "Traditional".

If you simply exactly follow the 1900 breed standard, then any animal without horns is NOT traditional, nether are brown colored animals.

[cascade]

May 29, 2017 13:11:39 GMT jamshundred said:

  We can talk mutation when my Dexters begin to have baby blue eyes the color of a clear blue summer sky.  

Blue eye mutation does occur in cattle from time to time.  It's just a miscopied broken eye-pigment gene causing a lack of pigment. It's not as common as the polled mutation which happens frequently. 

[Donlin Stud]

All hail to the miraculous (and very well timed) ‘beneficial evolutionary mutation’ for the owners of the horned cattle breed, The Dexter !!!!!

[cascade]

Actually, folks who had been dehorning Dexters for several decades, converted Dexters into a mostly hornless breed decades before naturally hornless Dexters became widely available.

For example, the breeder of the Old Orchard herd in the US was intimidated by horns and she cut and burned horns off.

I'm thinking we should improve all our registries, altering the code for horns to

H = horns
D = dehorned
P = polled
U = unknown horn status

We should put U on most of the old records because we don't know their status because it wasn't tracked before about 1990 in most registries.

[bruff64]

"We should put U on most of the old records because we don't know their status because it wasn't tracked before about 1990 in most registries."

So your suggesting we fix it until its broken.

[cascade]

It's silly and dishonest and inaccurate to list an animal as horned if it doesn't have horns. We know that the Old Orchard and Woodmagic herds were hornless.

It's silly and dishonest to assume an animal is horned if there are no records of its horned status. There may have been a few polled Dexters all along since the polled mutation occurs regularly.

[bruff64]

just like the Holstein, Jersey, Highland, Ayrshire, milking Devons.......polled mutations occurring with regularity in those breeds as well. All horses are really unicorns but a mutation made them hornless. We should classify all horses with a U designation because it is unknown when this mutation developed and some horse breeders may have removed the horn in the past. Same with American Guinea Hog, is the absence of tusks a function of a mutation in the males, or physical removal by the farmer? Sheep tails? Etc.......

[bruff64]

Silly isn't it

[lonecowhand]

Cascade, you are tilting at windmills again.

Irish Dexters are (were) a Horned breed. That means the animals have the genetics necessary to grow horns.

No one cares if the animal has been dehorned, it still breeds true.

Polled, on the other hand, does not necessarily breed true. which is the reason for the "Traditional" category. You know what you are getting, as close to the original breed as one can get these days , with the exception of the almost too rare to count "Legacy" designation.

As we've pointed out in the past, the introduced "Polled" gene is from an outcross, not genetic splicing , so it affects more than just the horns. Insisting that you get the original back in 4 short generations is erroneous.

Just look at the pedigree of Mrs Fermoy and try to see where she got her "Wild Red" coloring. it's about 8 or 9 generations back. That's a long time for things to hide, and WAY past your magic "4 generations to genetically clean".

All sorts of things come in , unanticipated, with sexual reproduction, potentially half the animal, whatever it is.

[cascade]

1. All DNA evidence including two tests by UC Davis tells us that Saltaire Platinum is as pure as the purest of Dexters.

2. Saltaire Platinum's polled gene definately could have come from a mutation in his pure Dexter great grandparents. DNA purity tests can support that.

3. All Dexters come from non-Dexters in the late 1800's and early 1900's... Any animal under 900 pounds could be a foundation "Dexter".

4. 99.9 % of all Dexter genes (including what you call "pure Dexter genes" come from other breeds, the rest come from mutations. The "Original Dexters" in the late 1800's and early 1900's were a mish-mash of other breeds. Any short cow of any breed was allowed to be a foundation Dexter.

The Dun gene, for example, was either a mutation, or it came from another breed. The color "black" was either a mutation, or it came from another breed, the horn genes came from other breeds or were mutations.


PS. I love genetic science. If you want some help crafting some definitions that are consistent with genetic science, I can help.

[lakeportfarms]

Let's do an experiment...I have a "White Dexter". Perhaps I'll send in some tail hairs and have it tested for purity. We know for a fact that it has White Park in the pedigree. If it comes back as "pure" as Platinum will you finally give up and go away?

[cascade]

May 31, 2017 0:43:30 GMT lakeportfarms said:

Let's do an experiment...I have a "White Dexter". Perhaps I'll send in some tail hairs and have it tested for purity. We know for a fact that it has White Park in the pedigree. If it comes back as "pure" as Platinum will you finally give up and go away?

3-5 generations after an outcross, you can return to purebred by repeatedly washing out the outcross genetics, but you also have to be selecting toward the Dexter breed standard at the same time.

Breeders who dehorned their Dexters in the 1950's/1960's converted Dexters into a substantially hornless breed, and they specifically altered the breed standard in the early 1960's to state that hornless Dexters are equal to Dexters with horns. That was done because many breeders, including the breeder of the Old Orchard herd were frightened of horns.

One could introduce the white pattern, or Holstein patterns or Hereford patterns into Dexters, and could eventually achieve purebredness, BUT they wouldn't meet the standard. So they wouldn't be purebred standard Dexters.

Saltaire Platinum is a tested purebred standard Dexter that exactly met the standard.

White Dexters don't meet the standard, neither would Hereford-Patterned Dexters, nor Holstein-Spotted Dexters.

The white-park pattern is a mutation... If that mutation occurred and was parentage-verified in the purest of pure Dexters, would you purists adopt them??? I wouldn't accept them because they wouldn't meet the standards, regardless of purity.

[lakeportfarms]

May 31, 2017 4:27:23 GMT cascade said:

May 31, 2017 0:43:30 GMT lakeportfarms said:

Let's do an experiment...I have a "White Dexter". Perhaps I'll send in some tail hairs and have it tested for purity. We know for a fact that it has White Park in the pedigree. If it comes back as "pure" as Platinum will you finally give up and go away?

3-5 generations after an outcross, you can return to purebred by repeatedly washing out the outcross genetics, but you also have to be selecting toward the Dexter breed standard at the same time.

Breeders who dehorned their Dexters in the 1950's/1960's converted Dexters into a substantially hornless breed, and they specifically altered the breed standard in the early 1960's to state that hornless Dexters are equal to Dexters with horns. That was done because many breeders, including the breeder of the Old Orchard herd were frightened of horns.

One could introduce the white pattern, or Holstein patterns or Hereford patterns into Dexters, and could eventually achieve purebredness, BUT they wouldn't meet the standard. So they wouldn't be purebred standard Dexters.

Saltaire Platinum is a tested purebred standard Dexter that exactly met the standard.

White Dexters don't meet the standard, neither would Hereford-Patterned Dexters, nor Holstein-Spotted Dexters.

The white-park pattern is a mutation... If that mutation occurred and was parentage-verified in the purest of pure Dexters, would you purists adopt them??? I wouldn't accept them because they wouldn't meet the standards, regardless of purity.

Cascade, you have finally been tripped up.   You equate the physical alteration of dehorning to genetic alteration.  The standard for determining the breed is what would be produced between animals of the same breed if there was no physical alteration.  Prior to Platinum, Dexters were a horned breed.  IF humans did no physical alteration of Dexter, it would have had horns.

Let's say I had an accident and had to have my arm or leg amputated.  My wife and I then have children.  Would my children have a 50% chance of being born without an arm or a leg? 

However you have admitted that with introducing a completely different breed that  purity test similar to the Platinum result can be obtained.  I suspect that is the case with the UCDavis report.  It doesn't change the fact that the breed standard was completely upended to allow the introduction of a polled crossbred animal into the Dexter breed.  The lack of a requirement for DNA genotyping and parent verification of ALL Dexters concurrent with the admittance of Platinum into the registry then provided the opportunity for a lot of other polled "mistakes" into the breed.  Those "mistakes" became pretty profitable since polled was sought after.  If those "mistakes" had occurred prior to admittance of Platinum, the polled Dexter would have had no value.  If the "mistakes" had a requirement to be DNA parent verified for the 20 plus years between the admittance of Platinum and today, I suspect there would be some Dextrers that would not have qualified.

[cascade]

Horn Genetics 101:

Both polled and horned cattle are genetically horned.

A complex set of genes code for horns... There are genes that control length of horns and genes that control thickness of horns and genes that control angle of horns and genes that control color of horns and genes that control curvature of horns.

Both polled and horned cattle have all these horn genetics.

The polled gene is a simple on/off genetic switch that when flipped to "off" simply interferes with the growth of horns, much in the same way a hot iron interferes with the growth of horns. But the horn genetics are still there.

All Dexters including horned, dehorned, and polled Dexters are genetically horned.

This horned girl (Cascade's Spur) is 4 years old in this picture. She has two polled parents and 4 polled grandparents, who contributed their horn genetics to her.