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Post by Donlin Stud on May 30, 2017 22:57:19 GMT
I read posts on this forum, and elsewhere, of how some just laugh or scoff at the idea of the term 'Traditional Dexter'. Many choose to not believe, or just think it is a term made up by a select few. Well these people who scoff should pull their blinkers off and pay attention to breeders of other cattle While this link is about Herefords – there are many cattle breeds in the same boat. Traditional bloodlines are being lost. Loads of money is being spent to trace and try and recover the so-called 'Traditional bloodlines'. AND Cattle breeders of other breeds are well aware of the physcial differences between the 'modern' and the 'traditional'. Its not made up. Its not a marketing ploy. Its fact peoples......... As I come across such articles while I research for my uncle, I will post here. From The Land: HerefordsTake note of the comment within…… " The difference in the conformation of the embryo calves I have got and the modern Hereford calves at exactly the same age is staggering." They're a totally different shape with the traditional Herefords chunkier with shorter legs. BTW: Traditional Dexter breeders - do not stop or pause in what you are doing. Future Dexter breeders are relying on you, and they are going to thank you when again, the Dexter as a breed is way out in front of other cattle breeds !!!
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Post by cascade on Jun 10, 2017 18:36:34 GMT
Donlin, The problem is that you don't have a clear, rational, indisputable definition of "Traditional". All breeds change over time due to genetic drift and environmental influences, and breeder selection decisions. A breeder could start with some 100% pure Dexters (in an isolated area) that you judged to be "100% Traditional" and they could come back thirty years later with a herd you would claim to not be Dexters at all, even if their parentage verified pedigrees showed they were 100% traditional, by your definition. No amount of attention to pedigrees will keep animals looking "traditional" whatever that means. The only thing that will keep breeds looking "traditional" is ongoing selection decisions by breeders against an old traditional breed standard. Dexters have a ton of genetic diversity. No single Dexter represents "THE Tradition"... If we had photos of every Dexter registered prior to 1910, you'd be surprised by the diversity including a nearly pure white cow (with some red dappling) named "Lily" who might have been polled, since that's the color of the ancient old Irish polled breed... There were also tons of reds. We each have a different idea of what "Traditional" means... There are lots of different traditions. For some people, "Traditional" Dexters is what they've seen in 1940's movies in England. But those were modern and foreign compared to the 1890's Dexters in Ireland The only objective definition of "traditional" is an animal that meets every word of the old Traditional breed standard published in 1900. Here's a picture of Wee Gaelic Ms. Fermoy who is claimed to be VERY Traditional by many folks here. If she is a Traditional phenotype, then most red polled Dexters can also claim to have a traditional phenotype.
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Post by jamshundred on Jun 11, 2017 2:12:21 GMT
Kirk,
i have never ever posted a photo of an animal you own. I am the recorded owner of Ms. Fermoy. Stop posting her photo. You do not post her for the purpose of education as you claim. You are one of a number of northwestern breeders who have cast aspersions either openly or slyly veiled, which most often is your mo in most things under the cover of "education".
Every single one of us connected to Ms Fermoy are fully aware. Fully aware. And much thought was given to all circumstances before a huge investment if time and money that no one really could afford was undertaken. There was no proof in 2005 and there is no proof today one way or the other........so a determination was made that a loss of potential rarity was not acceptable. And if science in the future offered proof, there would be no regrets. Ms. Fermoy was a remarkable personality. NO ONE here claims her "to be very traditional" as you deceitfully state. She was preserved because she was unique and because her pedigree was LEGACY. And she was loved.
Do Not Post her photo again in your ongoing vendetta against those of us who strive to do the right thing for a breed we admire, and who bear no responsibility in the lies and deceit that are the root cause of you having a herd of outcrossed animals all descending from one solitary mis-represented bull.
History WILL show we did the right thing, and you had and have the same opportunity of preservation and history will show you were part of the problem....not part of the solution. By choice. So go do your thing. You have a market that covers 90 per cent of the breed. Why do the preservationists who share around 7-8 per cent threaten you so? Sadly, Kirk...you know the answer, and you dance around it trying to make the truth disappear.
well....keep on shaking your booty, but leave MY cow out of it. And while you are it, you will be best served if she is exactly what her pedigree states, for if she isn't.....the genetics of that herd of yours is a group of line bred grades for she is the matriarch of the polled Dexter breed.
judy
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Post by cascade on Jun 11, 2017 6:30:22 GMT
We Northwesterners bred and birthed Wee Gaelic Ms. Fermoy just a few miles up the road from me and we thoroughly saved her, via scores of descendents, long before you easterners came and got her from us.
I'm working harder than most to preserve the things about Dexters that make them special... Small size, beefy frames with milkable udders, strong immune systems, efficient graziers, and great friendly personalities... Perfect for first-time cattle owners with no experience.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jun 12, 2017 13:28:32 GMT
We Northwesterners bred and birthed Wee Gaelic Ms. Fermoy just a few miles up the road from me and we thoroughly saved her, via scores of descendents, long before you easterners came and got her from us. I'm working harder than most to preserve the things about Dexters that make them special... Small size, beefy frames with milkable udders, strong immune systems, efficient graziers, and great friendly personalities... Perfect for first-time cattle owners with no experience. Cascade, judging by some of the Dexters I see advertised for sale today I grudgingly agree you are doing more than most breeders today. The breed is now populated by many new breeders, who don't have a very good understanding of the history of the breed. I'd have a lot more praise for you if you would just drop the vendetta you have against carriers and acknowledge that they played a vital role in the formation in the past, and viability of the breed in the future. I personally would not be involved in the Dexter breed if my choice was limited to polled, long leg Dexters. There are many more like me, and I aim to create more breeders of them every week.
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Post by cascade on Jun 12, 2017 20:21:21 GMT
Leggy animals are inefficient animals that require more calories and have a harder time putting on thick frames without a lot of extra feed. On our farm, we select toward short stocky feed-efficient frames in all our animals including sheep, pigs, cows, and chickens. It's easier to put meat and fat on a shorter legged animal. The originators of the Dexter breed understood this, and that's why they selected short and thick bulls.
I'll be using a young, exceptionally short and thick bull this year on most all of my cows. I chose him because of his exceptional shortness and thickness, along with some other good attributes. I'm assuming that he will breed true for his short, thick frame and pass that to all of his calves. I'm assuming that he is just naturally short and thick, and I'm assuming he doesn't have some defect that is causing his shortness.
I'll be breeding him on his exceptionally short and thick mother and on scores of other female relatives to test his genetics. If I get poor results, then I'll cull him. If I get great results, then I'll use him a lot.
Selecting for exceptionally short animals is tricky, because lots of genetic diseases can cause shortness. Every breed that has selected for shortness, has been plagued with defect genes in the past. The trick is to cull those defects, but keep the naturally short and healthy genetics.
Yes, dwarfism defects were part of the history of every breed that selected toward shorter animals, but bad udders and bad feet and poor behavior too-large of animals are also part of history, and we continue to select away from those problems.
It was clear that the breed originators wanted a healthy simple breed with a single phenotype with shorter Legs, thick beefy bodies, and compact frames under 900 pounds, along with a milkable udder. Somewhere along the way, the standard was altered in modern times to allow for giant long legged animals along with diseased dwarfs with lethal genes, and dead monsters.
It takes time and breeding skill to consistently produce a single trouble-free body type according to the 1900 standard... I'm simply trying to encourage more people to give it a try. It will be very good for the breed.
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Post by Donlin Stud on Jun 12, 2017 22:22:51 GMT
Cascade, you're approach is not encouraging at all. Encourage means give support, confidence, or hope to (someone) and this you do not. You have chosen instead to be condescending and aggressive in your approach - much like a few breeders over here in Australia that have done nothing more than alienate [new] breeders. And I would also like to point out that many Dexters, especially here in Australia are looking more and more like mini Angus with double muscling and a shape that is nothing like the dwarfs nor the long legs of days gone by as said breeders refuse to have dwarfs but want the look of one. Since when did Dexters have rounded butts as wide and as heavy as their shoulders? ?
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jun 13, 2017 14:31:47 GMT
Leggy animals are inefficient animals that require more calories and have a harder time putting on thick frames without a lot of extra feed. On our farm, we select toward short stocky feed-efficient frames in all our animals including sheep, pigs, cows, and chickens. It's easier to put meat and fat on a shorter legged animal. The originators of the Dexter breed understood this, and that's why they selected short and thick bulls. I'll be using a young, exceptionally short and thick bull this year on most all of my cows. I chose him because of his exceptional shortness and thickness, along with some other good attributes. I'm assuming that he will breed true for his short, thick frame and pass that to all of his calves. I'm assuming that he is just naturally short and thick, and I'm assuming he doesn't have some defect that is causing his shortness. I'll be breeding him on his exceptionally short and thick mother and on scores of other female relatives to test his genetics. If I get poor results, then I'll cull him. If I get great results, then I'll use him a lot. Selecting for exceptionally short animals is tricky, because lots of genetic diseases can cause shortness. Every breed that has selected for shortness, has been plagued with defect genes in the past. The trick is to cull those defects, but keep the naturally short and healthy genetics. Yes, dwarfism defects were part of the history of every breed that selected toward shorter animals, but bad udders and bad feet and poor behavior too-large of animals are also part of history, and we continue to select away from those problems. It was clear that the breed originators wanted a healthy simple breed with a single phenotype with shorter Legs, thick beefy bodies, and compact frames under 900 pounds, along with a milkable udder. Somewhere along the way, the standard was altered in modern times to allow for giant long legged animals along with diseased dwarfs with lethal genes, and dead monsters. It takes time and breeding skill to consistently produce a single trouble-free body type according to the 1900 standard... I'm simply trying to encourage more people to give it a try. It will be very good for the breed. What makes you think I'm not selecting for shorter legs, beefy bodies, good milk production and udder quality? I try to pay you a bit of a compliment for at least being aware of the changes the breed is undergoing, and you have nothing to add other than I'm raising diseased animals that aren't as good as yours are. There are some very nice long leg cows on our farm too. Some like this 10 year old cow measured 41" tall at 9 years of age (which means she was probably 39" or maybe less at 3 years of age) , are the dams of our short leg bulls. Would you call her a "giant"? Frankly, compared to your red cow "Spur" with horns, I'd rather have a Dexter like mine, even if she is an inch or two taller than "Spur" may be.
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Post by cascade on Jun 13, 2017 19:43:33 GMT
Lakeport,
That's a very nice black cow of yours above and I think you have a very good eye for cattle... Spur is not my best cow, she's just my only horned cow. I show her as an example that polled animals not only have horned genetics, but also can meet the original breed standard for size. Also, that photo was at the end of a brutal winter, when she was in her worst condition.
My point is that having certain animals on a distant pedigree isn't forcing Dexters to change in phenotype. Instead, it's simply the selection decisions that people are making that are changing the phenotype.
You and I both know we could take a dozen Dexters with most any pedigrees or horn statuses, and through 20 years of generational selection, we could produce a herd of rather large Dexters, or rather small Dexters.
Chondro-breeders have to take much of the responsibility for Dexters being too large/too tall. It's the chondro-breeders who have often used the Chondrodysplasia gene to artificially reduce the size of animals, while hiding their much larger true genetics.
Lakeport, I know you are working on some true-breeding shorts in addition to your chondro-shorts. But many other folks in influential positions are selecting for larger and larger dexters, but then using the Chondrodysplasia gene to create some fake-shorts to sell to newbies who want smaller cattle. Those influential people have also altered breed descriptions to allow for higher height ranges.
Right now, Dexters are in a bit of a fad status, just based on their name "Dexter" regardless of their size... but when that fad dries up, there will still be a market for small, safe, friendly, efficient, hardy, easy-to-raise beef cattle that can be milked.
Those of us with true-short genetics will be able to provide new folks with an ultra friendly compact bull and a couple of compact cows, free of complex problem genes, who will be able freely breed together to build a herd of simple little beefy cows that can be milked, but don't require milking.
When everyone has polled and red and A2/A2, then they will start to look for other distinguishing features. Since none of us are getting any younger, having compact cattle that can be easily managed by 80 year olds will come in handy.
PS. The young bull I'm using on all my 38 breeding-quality girls this year, is shorter than all those girls including girls that are a little younger than he is, and he's chondro-free... He's also very thick, and with shorter legs, and super friendly.
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Post by karenp on Jun 13, 2017 20:40:44 GMT
What a nice milkable looking udder.
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Post by Donlin Stud on Jun 13, 2017 21:57:49 GMT
Chondro-breeders have to take much of the responsibility for Dexters being too large/too tall. It's the chondro-breeders who have often used the Chondrodysplasia gene to artificially reduce the size of animals, while hiding their much larger true genetics. And down under, We have heard of many - too many who do not have dwarfs in their herds, under feeding their calves to inhibit growth. They are weaned at 6 months and no older, and then fed rations. A handful join their heifers at 12-15 months of age to 'enforce' the inhibiting of growth Now that has to be the worse crime to commit on uninformed new Dexter breeders - not to mention the poor Dexters they are doing this too all in the name of reducing the height. Disgusting !!!
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jun 14, 2017 2:03:23 GMT
What a nice milkable looking udder. Thank you Karen. She's the sire of our short leg bull Dylan, who has now sired many calves for us. Dylan's sire was Mike, who did a fantastic job on improving udders for us, especially forward attachment.
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Post by jamshundred on Jun 15, 2017 13:15:40 GMT
There are those who would and do argue that Dexters were not a dwarf breed, yet they ignore both circumstantial and factual evidence otherwise.
In the first recorded information on the Dexter breed in the 1840's, Professor David Low's description of the Dexter mirrors the phenotype characteristics of a dwarf Dexter, and they are not found in a miniaturized, bred down in size Dexter.
In the 1949 video of the famous Grinstead herd, assessed to be the premier herd of Dexters of all time, the herd is described as a herd of dwarf cattle. One might suspect the Lady of the manor and her herdsmen knew their herd!
Over the course of time since the breed was organized, it has been promoted and advertised in various venues, with specific valued breed traits and breed descriptions. These were and are connected to the dwarf genetics.
In breed qualities we value, two are absolutely found in dwarf Dexters and are not in non-dwarf. Specifically, the ability to convert minimal forage to maximum advantage and the manner in which dwarf cattle will mature and fatten earlier than their non-dwarf counter parts for beef.
There are descriptive traits of the phenotype which have been found across time in the breed description that are distinctly dwarf characteristics and do not appear in non-dwarf cattle. The shape of the head for one and the length of leg.
I note, after raising Dexters for many years there is a distinct difference in the maturing of personality in the dwarf versus the non-dwarf.
Those who have not raised and enjoyed the dwarf cattle, founders of the Dexter breed, cannot appreciate the exceptional and extraordinary quality of these cattle which endeared them to humans, lending them responsible for the continuation of this breed when other breeds of the time have not survived and thrived.
What is happening in modern Dexter time is that owners who profess to adore this breed are guilty of breeding out the very qualities which sustained it's popularity. Miniature cattle are NOT Dexter cattle in characteristics. When the herd, ( and the time nears) is genetic in appearance and in quality, they will be easily replaced by the next hot fad in the world of cattle, for they have no unique qualities of which numerous other breeds don't share.
It is important to preserve the Dexter breed as Dexters with the same characteristics that established the breed. In orer to realize the value of these characteristics. . . .. you MUST. . . . experience them.
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Post by cascade on Jun 15, 2017 20:14:12 GMT
The word "Dexter" in Ireland meant "compact, short and squat". It was first applied to some compact sheep, but also was applied to short squat men at times.
So when they said "Dexter Cattle" they simply meant short, thick cattle. When they said "Dexter Kerry", they meant short thick cattle in the Kerry area of Ireland.
"Dexter" was simply a body-frame variation that described a typical efficient short and thick beef frame. The Dexter Breed was invented based on that beef-framed body type (but with a milkable udder). The Dexter breed didn't exist as a breed until the late 1800's when they isolated some individuals and developed the first breed standard published in 1900.
They had an open herd book for several decades I believe into the 1920's, allowing any cattle of any breed to become a foundation "Dexter" if the animal met the breed standard, including being under 900 pounds and having shorter legs.
You can bet that most of the originals had naturally short and beefy genetics, but you can also imagine that some were just nutritional dwarfs, while some had genetic cartilage and bone diseases causing dwarfism, and some had other disease conditions causing dwarfism.
The first breed standard clearly describes a breed where 100% of individuals breed true for their short, thick frames. Yes, some had chondrodysplasia and other diseases and conditions causing dwarfism, but the breed standard didn't include them as being desirable.
Regardless of all the variations found in the early Dexters, the first breed standard tells us what Dexters were supposed to be. A nearly pure white cow named Lily was a foundation animal, but her whiteness was against breed standards. Also, any animal that had bull calves that eventually grew over 900 pounds, would also be against breed standards.
Dexter breed associations could easily have written Chondrodysplasia into breed standards by describing the three phenotypes associated with the disease, but they failed to do do.
Chondrodysplasia dwarfism and nutritional dwarfism were never meant to be part of Dexters, or they would have been written into the standards.
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Post by Donlin Stud on Jun 15, 2017 22:14:29 GMT
The word "Dexter" in Ireland meant "compact, short and squat". It was first applied to some compact sheep, but also was applied to short squat men at times. It does not - your spinning it again. Taking it all out of context Meaning. English Meaning: The name Dexter is an English baby name. In English the meaning of the name Dexter is: From a surname meaning 'dyer' Meaning: As well as a name, Dexter is also a Latin word meaning ‘righthanded’. As a given name it also means ‘prosperous’. Meaning: Given Name DEXTER GENDER: Masculine USAGE: English PRONOUNCED: DEKS-tər [key] Meaning & History From an occupational surname meaning "one who dyes" in Old English. It also coincides with the Latin word dexter meaning "right-handed, skilled". Related Names See All Relations Show Family Tree DIMINUTIVE: Dex And in case you take the word "diminutive" as your basis............. as a noun it is Meaning: diminutive dɪˈmɪnjʊtɪv/Submit noun 1. a smaller or shorter thing, in particular: a diminutive word or suffix. a shortened form of a name, typically used informally. "‘Nick’ is a diminutive of ‘Nicholas’" HERALDRY a charge of the same form as an ordinary but of lesser size or width. "Dexter" was simply a body-frame variation that described a typical efficient short and thick beef frame. The Dexter Breed was invented based on that beef-framed body type (but with a milkable udder). The Dexter breed didn't exist as a breed until the late 1800's when they isolated some individuals and developed the first breed standard published in 1900. Again the word 'Dexter' does not refer to any particular thing other than a smaller or lessor of. They had an open herd book for several decades I believe into the 1920's, allowing any cattle of any breed to become a foundation "Dexter" if the animal met the breed standard, including being under 900 pounds and having shorter legs. Open herd book is refers to being one that allows animals that meet specific criteria and/or inspection to enter a herd book. A Closed herd book refers to only those animals with ancestors entered in that herd book to be allowed to be entered. So its a given that the first herd book for a breed of any species would be "open" but that doesnt mean any breed of any description was entered You're playing with words taken out of context again. You can bet that most of the originals had naturally short and beefy genetics, but you can also imagine that some were just nutritional dwarfs, while some had genetic cartilage and bone diseases causing dwarfism, and some had other disease conditions causing dwarfism. Again,you play with words - genetics: no one knew about genetics back then. And they could not have been nutritional dwarfs becasue they werent aware there were dwarfs in the breed. And "nutirtional dwarfs" as you call it would not could not have had the distinguishing features of the breed named the Dexter so no they would not have been included. Just look back on all the old photos of the 'Dexter' as they were...........................the dwarf phenotypes are there The first breed standard clearly describes a breed where 100% of individuals breed true for their short, thick frames. Yes, some had chondrodysplasia and other diseases and conditions causing dwarfism, but the breed standard didn't include them as being desirable. Wrong! ONLY the dwarfs of the Dexter breed have the head shape ONLY the dwarfs of the Dexter breed have the feed/conversion rate as mentioned above very clearly by Judy. Short mini cattle would not and do not have these traits. So now Im going to say that "you can bet that " the originals had dwarfism since you can see the very distinctive dwarfism phenotype especially in the videos where you see the animal at different angles and the movement. Regardless of all the variations found in the early Dexters, the first breed standard tells us what Dexters were supposed to be. A nearly pure white cow named Lily was a foundation animal, but her whiteness was against breed standards. Also, any animal that had bull calves that eventually grew over 900 pounds, would also be against breed standards. Foundation refers to 'The term is particularly common in older breeds for which a written breed registry was not created until after the breed phenotype was well established.' Dexter breed associations could easily have written Chondrodysplasia into breed standards by describing the three phenotypes associated with the disease, but they failed to do do. Again you dont understand the Dexter as a dwarf - There are EIGHT (8) phenotypes associated with the Dwarf Dexter. And the breed associations have written in a few of these into their standards - again you did not read Judy's reply above . Chondrodysplasia dwarfism and nutritional dwarfism were never meant to be part of Dexters, or they would have been written into the standards. No one knew that it was a dwarfism gene that caused the certain characteristics of the Dexter breed until late in the 1990s - our time. And it is very well written that Chondrodysplasia has absolutely NOTHING to do with height - it has to do with characteristics / phenotype that you just CANT get with miniaturising a cow.
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Post by cascade on Jun 16, 2017 5:55:22 GMT
Genetics (called inheritance factors back then) were surprisingly well understood since the 1860's when Mendel charted the inheritance of dwarf "genetics" in peas.
The Royal Dublin Society published a paper in 1909, explaining Dexter inheritance and the source of the name "Dexter"
Wallace's Farm Livestock of Great Britain, 1907, page 205 says "while traveling in Kerry some years ago, the author found that the word "dexter" was used in a generic sense with reference to all diminutive animals, even men, if low set". The 1900 breed standard describes one single phenotype for Dexters. EVERYTHING in that standard can be found in true-breeding short and stout, non-chondro Dexters. If you disagree, then give us a quoted feature from the following 1900 breed standard that you claim can NEVER be found in non-chondro Dexters.
Here's that 1900 standard:
1. The Dexter is essentially both a milk-producing and a beef making breed, and both these points should, in judging, be taken Into consideration.
2. Colour.--Bulls.-Whole black or whole red (the two colours being of equal merit). A little white on organs of generation not to disqualify an animal which answers all other essentials of this standard description.
Cows.-Whole black or whole red (the two colours being of equal merit). Black with white on the udder, or red with white on bag. The extension of the white of the udder slightly along the inside of flank or under side of the belly, or a little white on end of tail, shall not be held to disqualify an animal which answers all other essentials of this standard description. .
3. Head AND Neck.--Head short and broad, with great width between the eyes, and tapering gracefully towards muzzle, which should be large, with wide distended nostrils. Eyes bright, prominent, and of a kind and placid expression.
Neck short, deep and thick, and well set into the shoulders, which, when viewed in front, should be wide, showing thickness through the heart, the breast coming well forward.
Horns.-These should be short and moderately thick, springing well from the head, with an inward and slightly upward curve.
4. Body.--Shoulders of medium thickness, full and well filled in behind, hips wide, quarters thick and deep and well sprung, flat and wide across loins, well ribbed up, straight underline, udder well forward, and broad behind with well placed teats of moderate size, legs short (especially from knee to fetlock), strong, and well placed under body, which should be as close to the ground as possible. Tail well set on and level 'with back.
5. Skin.--The skin should be soft and mellow, and handle well, not too thin, hair fine, plentiful and silky.
6. Dexter Bulls should not exceed 900 Lbs., live weight, when in breeding condition.
Dexter Cows should not exceed 800 Lbs., live weight, when in breeding condition
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Post by lonecowhand on Jun 16, 2017 16:30:48 GMT
Thank You, Donna, for setting this fake news straight. We've pointed out this "creative foray" into linguistic history in past threads.
Apparently, we're still dealing with the: "If you repeat something often enough it becomes truth" mentality.
It really does work though, unfortunately. That's why we all need to continuously refute these FAKE FACTS.
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Post by cascade on Jun 16, 2017 22:04:51 GMT
I believe Donna has enough integrity to read the 1900 Dexter Breed Standard,and read the 1907 explanation of the origin of the name "Dexter" posted above and to update her information. She is fair minded and smart.
Now, please read the 1900 Dexter Breed Standard which only allows for one single phenotype (in either black or red color), and quote any part of it that can NEVER be found in short, thick, compact non-chondro Dexters.
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Post by lonecowhand on Jun 16, 2017 22:55:06 GMT
Yadda yadda. Same lame BS. She read it , she disputed, and yet you persist. You have an agenda no one here agrees with or condones.
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Post by teatpuller11 on Jun 17, 2017 2:18:59 GMT
There was an old agricultural encyclopedia I saw, published in 1911, that says the Kerry farmers called the misshapen dead calves monsters, Kerry farmers knew to not breed two Dexters together. But everyone involved with the breed thought if they just kept breeding Dexters together, eventually the monsters and the Kerries would be bred out and they would be left with short beefy animals that met the breed description. That tells me they didn't have a clue what the problem was, and expected to have what Cascade calls true-breeding animals, in time.
Maybe the question to ask is: if early owners had known they were never going to get true-breeding animals, would we have Dexters today, and if so, what would they look like? To me, Ms. Fermoy doesn't look anything like an old Dexter, but she's a Legacy poster girl. Seems to me we have all these opinions, but they are based on modern interpretation rather than trying to put ourselves into the shoes of people 150 years ago, using their definitions and expectations. Would that make a difference?
Donlin: eight types? would you explain this. I've never heard of it. thank you.
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Post by jamshundred on Jun 17, 2017 16:58:09 GMT
Cascade: re:Dexter name. There really is not substantial circumstantial data to make the claim. That is the difference between you and I....I am willing to speculate, but there must be solid data to declare. Based on your standards, I could declare I have resolved the mystery parent in the Bullfinch line. LIMBURY FREDA is actually the cow registered as LIMBURY PEACE, because the name Freda, means "Peace". I could throw in some other worthy clues as well. Mystery solved.
Teatpuller. Non- chondro Dexters do NOT breed true. There is often MORE size difference in non-carrriers than a non-carrier and carrier. I can PROVE it with my own experience, but I can also prove it with a photo Duncan MacIntyre, a Scottish vet and long time breeder of Dexters very active in DCS just published a photo of two of his non-carrrier animals of the same age and ......let me tell you true....there was no "true" breeding. The true breeding blabber is just that. There is not a single breed that "breeds true" in the truest sense of the term.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jun 17, 2017 20:10:11 GMT
Cascade, you are so far out there with your claims it's laughable. Shall I start to point out all of the things that were believed in the 1800's and even well into the 1900's that we know not to be true today? Dexters were the selected dwarf cattle, and Kerry's were selected because they were non-dwarf. Sure there may have been some small non-dwarf in the mix and vice versa, but they were a very small percentage. The most obvious explanation is usually the correct one.
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Post by cascade on Jun 17, 2017 22:38:05 GMT
Go to any 6th grade classroom and sort the boys into two groups... put shorter boys with shorter legs in one group, and put the taller boys with longer legs in the other group. Once in a while, one of the shorter boys might have genetic dwarfism, but most all of the shorter boys in most classes just have naturally short genetics.
Come to my farm and sort my pigs into two groups, those with taller leaner builds and those with shorter thicker builds. You'll find that the ones with shorter thicker builds just have shorter thicker genetics... Same with my sheep, and chickens and cows.
Go to a grocery store and notice that some women have taller leaner frames and some have shorter (and often thicker) frames... Shorter frames use less calories. Shorter frames stay in condition easier and often get fatter easier.
In breeding livestock, shorter-legged frames can put on meat and fat easier than long lanky animals. The originators of Dexters in the late 1800's documented the fact that they wanted Dexters to be a short and thick compact beef breed, that could also be milked, and could easily stay in thick condition. They described a beef breed with milkable udders.
Dexters are NOT Kerry cattle with dwarfism and the DNA and historical records prove it. Dexters are a conglomeration of Kerry plus many other beef breeds like Devon and Shorthorn, selected for compact size. Up until the 1920's, any compact beefy cattle of any breed were allowed in the registry if they matched the Dexter breed standard.
Every breed (including Angus and Herefords) that selected for short beefy frames, had some defective dwarfism genes sneak in. There are NO official written records in any old Dexter registries stating that bulldog dwarfism was desired, over naturally short and thick Dexters. The 1900 Breed Standard clearly tells us that Dexters should be 100% short and thick.. that's NOT BullDog Chondrodysplasia Dwarfism.
Dwarfism is an intruder.
Now if you want to disagree, then please post some historical records that disagree with my facts. You won't because all the historical records support my claims.
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Post by jamshundred on Jun 18, 2017 0:45:24 GMT
HA! Mr. "He-who- claims- all-Dexter- knowledge-in-2017" would have us believe the breeder in the top of the Dexter longevity circles, and the premier breeder of Dexter cattle in England, was ignorant when she tagged her Dexters "a herd of dwarf cattle", in 1949. That was before you were born, and more than half a century before you ever owned a Dexter! Yet, you proclaim more knowledge than the esteemed Dowager Lady Loder? LOL!
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jun 18, 2017 12:00:25 GMT
Nice try Cascade...but with Dexters we're not talking about a free society where people are able to congregate and associate without rules or "standards", and breedings are managed.
Let's say I'm king back in the 1500's and I have an affinity for humans with dwarfism. I decide that they deserve special status and so I create an area of my country where they are blessed with good housing, food, education, and freedoms that the ordinary population doesn't receive. There would be an incentive to produce more dwarf children. If you walked into a school in that reason, it would be populated with dwarf children. Yes, in that area of the country there would be some short people without dwarfism, and some tall people too. But the dwarf would be favored by the King, and by the parents, for he or she would have a higher status than their non-dwarf child. If a dwarf man and woman produced babies there would be some that did not survive. Maybe eventually they would figure out that if you wanted to have children a dwarf would have to marry a non-dwarf, but to know for sure would require a level of sophistication in genetics that they didn't possess at the time.
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Post by teatpuller11 on Jun 18, 2017 19:31:07 GMT
Lakeport...but what about the part of the story or whatever, where one of the conditions attached to this paradise was that over time, all the dwarfs would produce only dwarfs and all the other types would disappear, and that was the intention of the king--at the time. This has not happened, and now the king and all his subjects know why, so the whole project is a failure and will remain so. What will they do next? Oh, and the market for court jesters is pretty thin.
I started out loving the looks of the more proportionate dwarfs, but when I figured out I could only get at best about 10% of the offspring looking like I wanted ((50% dwarf, but most were really not in proportion, so I only got 1:5). I still love the look of the proportionate dwarfs. But now I'm stuck with all those undesirable ones, long and short, too. I think Cascades arguments are pretty silly sometimes, but I have to say the other arguments are pretty silly, too. This is one of them.
Yours is a lovely cow. One of the best udders out there. I guess you're working on the high tailhead and flat vagina.
I know some of you have lots of old pictures. Why aren't I seeing people post photos of prize winning old Dexters that had huge heads, big ugly flat feet, and lumpy bodies? They appear to have been in the majority back then, but we only see that 10% I'm talking about.
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Post by cascade on Jun 18, 2017 19:49:23 GMT
DWARF: an animal or plant much below normal size www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dwarfOn my farm, nearly every breed we have are much below normal size because they are easier to manage. We have dwarf cherries, dwarf apples, dwarf plums, dwarf peaches, dwarf pears, dwarf goats (based on Nigerian Dwarf goats), dwarf kale, dwarf peas, dwarf beans, dwarf tomatoes, a relatively compact breed of sheep, a small breed of pig, etc.. We can't reach the cherries and apples if the trees are 50 feet tall. We can't easily home-slaughter beef if the carcass is over 400 pounds, we can't manage boars that are over 400 pounds. Hundreds of different things can cause a plant or animal to be much below normal size... Poor nutrition, limited resources, hormone malfunction, bone diseases, cartilage diseases, poisoning, or simple genetic selection toward naturally healthy and shorter genetics. Dwarf Nigerian Goats simply have been selected to have naturally compact and healthy genetics. Mini-Nubian goats have also been selected to have naturally compact and healthy genetics... one is called dwarf, and the other is call mini, but it's the same genetics. There is no hard and fast rule for use of the terms "dwarf" and "miniature". Livestock people and especially Dexter people struggle with the terms "miniature" and "dwarf" because those terms mean a lot of different things to people. When Lady Loder said she had a herd of "dwarf" cattle, she was correct because all of her cattle were "much below normal sized" cattle (see definition up top). She obviously didn't mean that all of her cattle suffered from the genetic cartilage disease called "Bulldog Chondrodysplasia", because that's impossible because it's a lethal gene and only 50% of calves (at most) can be born with BD Chondrodysplasia Dwarfism, the other 50% are either born dead, or born without that genetic disease. Nobody, not even Lady Loder herself, knew what percentage of her herd would have tested positive for BD1 Chondrodysplasia. It might have been as low as 15% of her herd. If you made a list of all Grinstead animals, how many of them can you reasonably prove had BD1 Chondrodysplasia?... Perhaps 3% of the total? All the old documents tell us that Dexters were meant to be a true-breeding compact breed with naturally shorter genetics... There is ZERO old records of anyone claiming that the three different phenotypes associated with BD1 Chondrodysplasia were meant to be part of the breed.
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Post by Donlin Stud on Jun 19, 2017 2:45:57 GMT
Maybe the question to ask is: if early owners had known they were never going to get true-breeding animals, would we have Dexters today, and if so, what would they look like? Definition of True breeding.... "True-breeding organism. ... A true-breeding organism, sometimes also called a purebred, is an organism that always passes down certain phenotypic traits (i.e. physically expressed traits) to its offspring." Dont short legged Dexters always pass down certain phenotypic traits (i.e. physically expressed traits) to its "Short legged offspring"And as for your question: Suggested reading for you: Note: the ext under 'Introduction' Research publication BD!
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Post by teatpuller11 on Jun 19, 2017 4:05:42 GMT
only half the time. By your definition, I guess that makes them not true breeding. oops.
Will follow up your link. thanks.
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Post by teatpuller11 on Jun 19, 2017 14:56:43 GMT
Donlin, I followed the link to the abstract. The only mention of '8' anywhere is a reference to the 4 bp insertion causing the rest of the genetic sentence to be gobblygook, which in turn causes only 8% expression of growth. This has nothing to do with 8 types of anything. Was there somewhere else that mentions 8 and I missed it?
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