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Post by cascade on Jun 19, 2017 15:39:13 GMT
Purebred = Homozygous for breed-defining traits.
Hybrid = Heterozygous for breed defining traits.
Heirloom/Heritage farmers don't love hybrid tomatoes, nor hybrid corn, nor hybrid chickens, because you can't save the seed, nor hatch the eggs and reliably expect ALL the offspring to be just like the parents.
The goal in a purebred breeding program is to purify your plants and animals so that 100% of the offspring meet the breed standard.
The 1900 Dexter Breed Standard tells us that purebred Dexters should ALL have shorter legs. The BD1 and BD2 Chondrodysplasia genes can only exist in the heterozygous (hybrid) form because it's lethal in the homozygous purebred form. Using the BD1 or BD2 genes will never accomplish the goal of purebred shorter legs. Chondro-Dexters are hybrids.
The good news is that there are plenty of other gene alleles at various loci, that will give you purebred shorter legs, and also give you ALL the other features listed in the original 1900 Dexter Breed Standard.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jun 19, 2017 16:01:30 GMT
I'm really getting tired of the "true-breeding" argument. I suppose all of you keep every one of your calves? I don't. I sell some to pay the bills, and I cull some to put beef in the freezer. With 100 plus Dexters, I don't need to have 1000 of them running around in 5 years. So I keep the short leg Dexters that I like, I eat the ones I don't, and I sell the others to people who also want to raise Dexters. Some prefer the long legs, some prefer the short legs. But I have no problem maintaining a very consistent looking herd of short leg Dexters, that you'd have to work at telling them apart other than the color. That's why ear tags were invented.
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Post by teatpuller11 on Jun 19, 2017 19:02:57 GMT
Lakeport, just because you don't keep the calves doesn't mean they cease to exist. It's not about what you keep, it's about what gets born. Why are we seeing this crazy illogic? I think you all just like to keep the ball in the air. Why waste time on senseless arguments? There's a deep path around these bushes; time to branch out to some other topic.
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Post by cascade on Jun 19, 2017 20:07:35 GMT
If you have hybrid tomato plants and you breed them together, you'll get mish-mash of results... If you have hybrid corn and you breed them together, you'll get a mishmash of results. If you have hybrid chickens and you breed them together you'll get a mishmash of results. Sure, you might like some of the results, and you can cull all the others, but they aren't purebred and won't breed true.
People seek out purebred animals and heirloom plants for their consistency of results.
The word "Dexter" means short and thick. Purebred Dexters according to the 1840 and 1900 descriptions of Dexters should ALL be short and thick with all males under 900 pounds.
The idea of multiple body-frame phenotypes associated with Chondrodysplasia in Dexters is a modern addition, just like hornlessness is a modern addition.
People who want a little herd of problem-free, compact, friendly Dexters can get a true-short Dexter bull and keep him with a few true-short girls for many many years and watch their little compact herd grow. A true short bull can freely breed his own true-short daughters and granddaughters, providing consistent trouble-free results.
Chondrodysplasia gives a mishmash of results and management headaches.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jun 19, 2017 20:44:26 GMT
Wait...I'm confused. For the past 5 or so years the "motto" of the ADCA, the association you love so much, is "Celebrate the Diversity!". You know..."there is a Dexter for everybody!" Now your telling me they should all look the same? Better notify the ADCA! Looking at the historical photos of Dexters, I see a preponderance of short leg, obvious chondro carriers as the type that most were breeding for. That is what we breed for, because that is what we like. Our chondro carriers can produce non-carrier Dexters that others may like. I can just as easily, with my carriers, breed short thick Dexters just like Cascade. However I'm using even shorter thicker Dexters to produce it. Here is a 1-1/2 year old bull sired by one of your bulls named Renegade. Did Renegade breed true 100%? I sure don't see his progeny as being short and thick, certainly not as short as what my chondro bulls or cows are producing, including the non-chondro bulls out of them. It says right on the caption with the photo "Mojo at 1-1/2 years". laffeysirishanimals.com/images/369_IMG_4040.JPG
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Post by cascade on Jun 20, 2017 0:32:09 GMT
Renegade (far too big) is an example of the problem that Chondrodysplasia has caused for Dexters. Chondrodysplasia breeders have used the gene to hide tall genetics and pass those too-tall genetics to the next generation over the decades. The Dexter breed hasn't yet been purified to breed true for compact size.
Further, chondro-breeders with their giants and dwarfs have pressured breed associations to allow for a huge range of sizes up to 50 inches.
Renegade was out of two non-Cascade animals years ago that had not been purified to breed true for compact size. They threw some compact animals and some too-large animals. I sold him as a calf last decade, and was surprised to see how large he turn out.
In meantime, over the past decade, I've been working hard toward making my herd breed true for compactness with great success.
It's slow progress because I'm working on so many things all at the same time... Natural parasite and disease resistance, high feed efficiency, meat tenderness, superior ribeye size, good udders, strong feet,weather hardiness, birthing ease, super friendliness, etc.. not to mention A2, and polled.
I'm using a very compact bull (out of very compact parents) this summer and can't wait to see next spring's calves.
PS. The process of creating a purebred true-breeding line of animals or plants involves concentrating the alleles that contribute toward the desired features and eliminating alleles that interfere.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jun 20, 2017 11:15:12 GMT
Now I've heard it all !!! You're blaming Renegade's height on chondrodysplasia? His pedigree is loaded with Platinum and Outlaw as his ancestors! I didn't realize they were all chondro carriers or bred to chondro carriers.
Well I guess Platinum is listed as a non-carrier, but Outlaw has no status, so maybe he was one of the "monster" carriers you so often talk about.
I really don't work on size all that much around here, because both our chondro carriers and our non-carriers are already smaller size. In fact, just last fall I purchased a non-carrier bull for our Traditional Dexters that is a bit on the large side for us, but he hasI a lot of other nice traits that we were looking for. I'm not worried if he bumps up our sizes a bit, because they are already at the lower end of the breed guidelines.
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Post by karenp on Jun 20, 2017 11:48:22 GMT
I have no where near the experience of most here, but I'm going to through in my two cents. I have a really nice Dexter cow, good udder, great temperment (I raised her from a calf with no experience and have managed to milk her without getting killed), but she is much bigger than I had hoped for my small acreage. If she milks well, I plan on keeping her much smaller chondro pos daughter. I don't think it's a negative that she may "hid" her mother's larger size. I get to feed the smaller mother with possibly larger calves to fill the freezer. Really a win in my book.
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Post by cascade on Jun 20, 2017 13:35:06 GMT
Thanks Karen, for proving my point that Chondrodysplasia is responsible for hiding larger genetics and passing those larger genetics to the next generation, and that's why many of today's modern Dexters have such a wide range of sizes.
My point is that the 1900 breed standard says that 100% of Dexters should be short and thick and no more than 900 pounds (females no more than 800 pounds), it also says red or black only (no brown/dun), and it says horns should curve mostly forward and only slightly upward (no upright horns).
Some people love their chondro cows that hide larger genetics and pass those larger genetics to the next generation where they can have bulls that weigh 1200 or 1300 pounds and stand 50 inches tall. If that works best for you, then that's no problem... But it goes against the traditional Dexter Breed Standard, published in 1900. Chondrodysplasia and the hidden larger genetics is a modern upgrade to the standards.
Chondrodysplasia = Modern Upgrade To Standards
PS. Saltaire Platinum was a 42" true-short, non-chondro bull with very short legs, so having him on the pedigree tends to reduce the size of Dexters and give them shorter legs. Saltaire Platinum matched the 1900 Dexter breed standard, except he was hornless (but carries horned genetics).
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jun 20, 2017 16:44:31 GMT
Cascade, you entirely missed Karen's point. She has small acreage and would like to have an efficient cow to produce a larger calf to go in the freezer. Where is the problem? We all know that chondro positive Dexters are shorter and smaller than their non-chondro parents or progeny. That's why we have chondro cows, they can produce larger steers for the freezer. There is no reason why you can't use the same type of selection criteria on your chondro cows as you do on your non-chondro cows.
I expect you have such limited experience with chondro positive Dexters that you don't think it's possible. With over 60 chondro positive Dexters, I can assure you that you can. You know that bull of Janice's that you liked so much? He was out of a chondro positive bull. Did I do a poor job selecting him as a good bull candidate for a customer who wanted a non-chondro bull to use on her chondro heifers?
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Post by cascade on Jun 20, 2017 19:30:19 GMT
The problem with chondros is that they suffer from aggrecan deficiency and that causes poor cartilage and poor joints and painful joints and shorter lives.
My current true-short bull's great great grandmother is going on age 19, and is pregnant with her 17th calf. His great great grandsire is going on age 14 and is going strong.
Also, Chondrodysplasia is completely unpredictable. You might get giant non-chondro heifers, and stunted little dwarf steers. You can't predict.
With little true-short super-efficient cows, if you want big beefy calves one year, you can breed one or two (or more) of those true-short cows on a big beefy bull and get 100% predictable big beefy calves. Or, you can breed those true-short girls on a true-short bull and get predictable compact results.
True Shorts can do everything a chondro-dwarf can do, only true-shorts are predictable, and can be very long lived, and can freely breed without restrictions.
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Post by Donlin Stud on Jun 20, 2017 22:36:54 GMT
Chondrodysplasia breeders have used the gene to hide tall genetics and pass those too-tall genetics to the next generation over the decades. Well, as a breeder who advocates for Dwarfs, now Im offended !!! Firstly, chondrodysplasia has nothing to do with height. That’s a scientific fact, and you know this. Arthritis has nothing to do with cartilage development but its a symptom of high inflammation, and BD1 does not encourage excessive inflammation as its governed by the immune system And since the recent introduction of the Polled genetics into the Dexter breed has seen: 1. Associations upping the top height measurements 2. [Polled] Dexter bulls are exceeding the 400-450 kg mark with some breeders over here bragging how they have bulls hitting the 900kg mark. 3. [Polled] Dexters are more times than not looking like mini Angus with the excessive muscling and butts same as or wider than their shoulders. 4. More and more stories of calves needing to be pulled, and some exceeding the 17 - 22 kg birth weight To me the Polled genetics has caused more damage to this heritage breed than its well known and documented for selection chondrodysplasia genes.
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Post by teatpuller11 on Jun 20, 2017 22:44:52 GMT
Hi Donlin. Glad your back. I asked you about the 8 types. You have me very curious. Please fill me in??? The only 8 I saw dealt with the percentage of effect.
And, not sure where you are getting your facts, but isn't it a definite known that chondro affects bone length, which is why dwarfs have short legs. Are you suggesting heights only count in the body, not from the ground? In that DB1 article, the author says she found a 6=8 inch height difference between dwarfs and those not carrying chondro. Where do you get it that dwarfism doesn't affect height? And, I'm not one to defend Platinum, but didn't Davis testing show he isn't part Angus, so why are you blaming him for an Angus look?
No wonder I'm confused.
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Post by Donlin Stud on Jun 20, 2017 23:39:19 GMT
Hi. It wasn’t 8 types. It was 8 phenotype differences. My facts – come from two very long time, and experienced with breeding Dwarfs Australian Dexter breeders. It also comes from reading and reading and more reading as I have a very intense interest in the dwarf Dexter which is why the breed was chosen to roam our paddocks in the first place. Chondrodysplasia carriers see the head, limbs, and vertebrae ‘shortened’ as they do not grow to their full potential length. The rate of growth varies from animal to animal and is seen in the differences in expression of the know phenotypes of carriers. It was the cannon bone length that provided Julie Cavanagh with the _best predictor_ [note not the only predictor] for a carrier so she could best compare the results of the gene test performed And as you already know Teatpuller11 from another forum: “ As most of you know Australia allowed grading up of animals to reach purebred status at F4 for females and F5 for males. The animals that Julie Cavanagh used for the collection of her data included grade animals and animals of varying ages, (as she has stated in her published papers).
Some of the animals could have been quite young and only partially grown, which would explain the small animals measured. “ And don’t put words in my mouth please – I did not mention nor blame Platinum for the Angus look in Polled Dexters in Australia. IN Australia as mentioned above - we have grade ups - we Australians, and the English, know where the Polled came from............ Introgression / grade up programs. We do not need to defend / cover up a lie But ya gotta admit - Australian and American Polled Dexters do look very similar in most circumstances - dont you reckon? ?
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Post by cascade on Jun 21, 2017 7:00:02 GMT
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jun 21, 2017 10:59:03 GMT
Cascade, what are you going to do when the red polled (A2/A2) fad has run it's course, and breeders are starting to look for the next thing to try to promote to sell their Dexters that they can no longer unload?
It may very well end up being chondrodysplasia...lol...given the current large size many of the red polled Dexters are now.
Red polled and dun chondro positive bulls and heifers! Boy is your head going to explode!
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Post by cascade on Jun 21, 2017 14:57:03 GMT
It will be easy to promote the following well into the future:
Raise your own gourmet quality beef and milk with simple, friendly, safe, tiny cattle. You can easily keep a super friendly small bull and a couple of small cows in your backyard and watch your herd grow. They are super efficient, long-lived, trouble-free, hardy, easy on fences and land. Our naturally compact Dexters are naturally hornless and friendly, DNA tested free of problem genes, and DNA tested to have supreme tender, highly marbled beef and high-quality dairy. Small enough to home butcher for true self sufficiency and will easily fit in your freezer.
DNA tested gourmet quality beef:
Beef Tenderness Score 7 or better Marbling Score 5 or better Ribeye size score 5 or better
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Post by teatpuller11 on Jun 21, 2017 15:13:37 GMT
Lakeport, isn't this the pot calling the kettle black? Don't you boast about how much money you make on the highland crosses. What are you going to do when the fad for dwarf highland runs out? Why is it okay for you to make breeding choices for huge profits, but it's not okay for others to breed for market demand, too? Using a belittling putdown as a response to cascade's science is a pretty cheap shot. I happen to think, from what I know so far, Cascade isn't necessarily onto the right solution yet either, but at least he doesn't make the attack personal.
Maybe if all of us who like the dwarf look would simply say, up front, yes, I choose to use a serious genetic defect, selectively, to create a look I like--and that sells for big bucks--sorry, that's who I am, there would be less acrimony on Dexter sites. Or even I breed dwarfs because that was the original selection and I want to keep to the original specs, that would probably be okay, too. I think Cascade is right about true non short being out there early on, but from all I've read, I think they were in the minority. The dwarf gene was the primary selector.
This brings me back to my earlier comment: in the mid-late 1800's, 'breeds' cropped up all over the place. Every single one of them was to produce and promote certain traits, a combination of reliable appearance and production yields. Consistency was the goal. Some breeds used traits that later on turned out to be dangerous. Production breeds discovered those traits and eliminated them. Pet stock breeds encouraged them.
I've had to cross the aisle and join Cascade, because I always wanted to be a production producer. I think those who want small animals and are happy with dwarfism to get that, belong to the useful pet stock producer category. Maybe you can milk and eat the result, but it's the appearance that has the higher priority.
Get over it.
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Post by lonecowhand on Jun 21, 2017 17:28:39 GMT
TP11, You have always been across the Aisle, or Isle, when it came to Platinum. You may not notice (ha) but you jump in when cascade is losing the absurd arguments he raises.
There are still plenty of folks out there who are interested in the Original Dexter, (or as close as you can get with the limited genetic pool) and understand that Dwarfism is part of that breed. It has to be managed, Big Deal.
Lakeport makes no bones about providing whatever the market requests, but (honestly) keeps his types separate. He's not banking on a fad, he's not representing what he produces in a cross or "upgrade" as anything but what they are. He does value and respect (and raise) the traditional horned Dexter.
Get over what? The fondness for the Dwarf Type? The fondness for horns? The fatigue of having to constantly defend against the dilution of the breed? Or defend the characteristics of what comprises an Irish Dexter?
If you want a big, hornless, High production cow, Get a Holstein! Now, that's production!
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Post by cascade on Jun 21, 2017 17:47:00 GMT
By the way, have you seen some of the new short, polled, non-chondro AI bulls?
Glenn Land Mr Fire Man Red: DOB: 4/14/2011 ADCA Number: 031361 Polled: (Pc/H) Chondro negative PHA negative Shoulder Height: 41” at 3 years Milk: A2/A2 Weight: 1,000 at 3 years $50 per straw, plus S/H
Glenn Land Mr Baird Red E+E+ DOB: 3/23/2014 ADCA Number: 035756 Polled (Pc/Pc) Chondro negative PHA negative Shoulder Height: 39” at 2 years Milk: A2/A2 Weight: 850 at 2 years $50 per straw, plus S/H
Mrald Amadeus Sexed Straws (95% heifers) Registration # 037670 Homozygous polled (all calves will be polled) Red (e/e) PHA and Chondro negative Sire: Saltaire Platinum Dam: Belle Fourche Carmen 41" at 2 years of age $160/straw $100 discount on 10 straws
Are you having too many bull calves? These are "heifer" sexed straws for A.I., meaning the semen is sorted into 95% heifer sperm cells. Amadeus is a balanced and correct bull with a well muscled back end. His dam is a tremendous milker (with her front udder attachment extending forward, and one of the highest and widest rear udder attachments available). Amadeus is also a son of the English bull, Saltaire Platinum (of whom there are only a handful of straws remaining). He has a calm and friendly disposition. His calves have been very consistent - they all look alike! They also have his great disposition
Belle Fourche Lasair ADCA# 025064
Homozygous polled Red with black nose (E+/e) Homozygous A2/A2 Noncarrier of chondrodysplasia Noncarrier of PHA Hip height 41” at 2 years $90.00 per straw, 10% discount on 10 Straws are certified (CSS) and exportable.
He has very high butterfat on both sides, and his dam and granddam were good milk producers of sweet, creamy milk.
PS. Notice how I back all of my statements with documented facts.
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Post by teatpuller11 on Jun 21, 2017 23:43:27 GMT
Lonecowhand, you have no idea!
I don't see Cascade losing. What I do see is every time he shoots down lakeport or you or donlin or judy (about the only ones who post here), suddenly the issue becomes something else. I gave up coming here because those who profess support of original genetics don't have any, can't find any, criticize everyone else, and then do exactly the same things you criticize others for: certain breeding choices, breeding to meet the market, and charging lots for very ordinary animals. When all else fails out comes the red polled shillelagh. IMO y'all are just enjoying the chance to have your time in the sun and then use it to trash others. I haven't once seen Cascade make the argument personal. I've seen lots the other way around. Pathetic. No brainer.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jun 22, 2017 1:53:09 GMT
Teatpuller,
Nothing personal at all with Cascade. I (and many others) are just tired of his constant bashing of chondro carriers. Admit it, it is a daily thing with him. He must have some special software or something on his computer or phone like the "Amber Alert" that notifies him when somebody has something nice to say about a chondro Dexter.
He's been banned from the largest group on FB for Dexters because of his constant badmouthing of the chondro carriers, so he brings it here instead.
As far as my little dwarf Highlands, I've never tried or intend to try to make up a story about a fresh mutation out of registered Highlands (I have some registered Highlands) without DNA genotyping or parentage verification to get them into the AHCA. I fully disclose that they are a program that we started over a decade ago breeding our short legged Dexter bull to a (registered) Highland cow, and then selecting the chondro carrier bulls from generation to generation to increase the Highland percentage. The funny thing is, even with the current ADCA rules I could have genotyped and sire qualified every one of those bull calves out of those matings, and I'd have really hairy registered Dexters! And lest you think that I'm relying on chondrodysplasia to artificially reduce the height, we've had a parallel program using a very small purebred Highland bull to bring down the size of the purebred Highland cows. Our Highland bull is 43" at 11 years old, shorter than most Dexter bulls at half his age. Good quality Highland bulls actually have very short legs combined with very deep bodies. If you wanted to make a really beefy Dexter bull, using a Highland somewhere in the pedigree then going back to Dexters a couple of generations would be an excellent choice. It would have horns, however. Maybe somebody has already done it?
A lot of work and time has gone into this project. People who pay big bucks for these calves are merely trading their dollars for the many years and generations of our blood, sweat, and tears producing calves that did not have much appeal other than beef or for a grade heifer. I just shipped one to Pennsylvania, we have one going to South Carolina next week, and we have another going to Nebraska in a month or two. Very few of us breed high quality ones right now. Our biggest problem are the emaciated Highlands and low percentage crosses that are advertised as being the same as what we produce. Many purchasers don't know any better, or think that they were lucky and got a barn find. That is a 1 in a 1000 likelihood. Why should I put somebody in business doing what we do by selling them a 97% dwarf bull that looks like a Highland for a couple thousand dollars? I would be crazy to do that. If they want it, they can pay a lot of money, or they can spend 10 years starting with excellent quality short leg Dexter bulls and Highland cows. Isn't that worth $1000 / year, at least? So yeah, $10,000.00 MIGHT persuade me to part with one of my little bulls.
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Post by teatpuller11 on Jun 23, 2017 14:49:41 GMT
lakeport: it's not about the work. You aren't developing chondro carrying Highlands just for the interest and fun of doing it with no market. You're doing it because its fun and interesting and you can make big bucks. Don't use the oh youre just doing it for the money putdown for those breeding for red and/or polled, and then hold yourself up as a paragon because you are breeding for original (well, not really, but close except for the things you want that don't fit but you'll do them anyway) . That's the pot calling the kettle black.
If dwarfs didn't look cute and small and less threatening, and you couldn't promote them as rare (back to original), you wouldn't be breeding them either, because who in their right mind would want to use a lethal gene that makes deformed bone growth, other than pet stock faddists? I think Cascades point is you can get small cute less threatening animals from the same genetics without using a defective gene, and his choice doesn't involve dead calves and hidden heights.
I think if everyone who wanted to breed using chondro simply admitted they don't care about the deformity as long as they can get the look they like, we wouldn't be having these around the bush over and over postings. Because we defend our choice with all the old its original bs and highly selective 'facts', instead of being honest about why we use the gene, Cascade might go away...that's my rant for the day.
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Post by jamshundred on Jun 25, 2017 15:01:27 GMT
I have been breeding chondro since my first herd bull. I breed chondro because I don't just "think" they are the BEST Dexter one can produce, I am confident of it. I have years of experience that prove the brochures and articles that touted the value of the Dexter were based on dwarf Dexters, for non-dwarf absolutely do NOT carry the traits or perform as the dwarf cattle do. I do not know any bonifide homesteader who would choose a Dexter at the prices I see asked on the internet. It is NOW, with "designer" cows that the "pet" market is being gouged. I admire this breed above all others and I am heartsick at what the leadership of this breed and greedy breeders have accomplished. The animals that grace the media have no resemblance nor functionality of the original Dexter breed.
As an aside, one of the selling points of Dexters was their strong immune systems. During the hoof and mouth outbreak in England when hundreds of thousands of cattle were destroyed. .. . not a single Dexter contracted the disease. I have old newspaper clippings from early last century where the "healthiness" of Dexters was included in selling points, and several ads promoted the Dexter breed as immune to TB. The ease of calving, is such a bonus for Dexter owners. . . . . yet for a number of years now I have seen the pages of social media filled with birthing problems, dead calves, sick cows and bulls.
Do NOT ever try to convince ME the Dexter breed has not been devastated by ignorance and avarice fomented in modern decades by leadership seemingly incapable of nurturing this breed as it was founded.
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Post by Donlin Stud on Jun 25, 2017 23:00:43 GMT
...... lakeport or you or donlin or judy (about the only ones who post here),
Well, we must provide interesting reading for you - or why else would you be lurking here, wasting your internet download dollars $$$$$$$
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Post by cascade on Jun 26, 2017 4:47:10 GMT
1. All old heritage breeds had strong immune systems. They had to have strong immune systems to survive in a world with no modern vet care. The weak died, while those with strong immune systems passed their strong genes to offspring. The only way to preserve strong immune systems is to withhold modern vet care, and cull weak animals. My dexter herd has exceptionally strong immune systems, because I don't do much vet work, and I cull weak animals.
2. Short and thick animals do have many advantages over leggy animals, including high efficiency, easy to gain muscle and fat, easier to manage, eat less food.
3. You can have dwarf animals (shorter than typical) without Chondrodysplasia.
4. Please provide us with an exact list of positive traits that you believe can ONLY be found in animals with a BD1 Chondrodysplasia gene, and can NEVER be found in a non-chondrodysplasia Dexter ( hint: you won't be able to give me a list because Chondro-Dexters have no special unique features).
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Post by jamshundred on Jun 26, 2017 22:47:53 GMT
Kirk - I have answered that question repeatedly. You should read the answers given to the questions you ask.
You cannot dwarf an animal that is not a dwarf. You can "miniaturize" taller animals to make them smaller. . .usually by linebreeding, sometimes through starving. Dexter cattle are NOT a miniature breed. How MANY times do you suppose that has been written across the decades? Many, many. As a matter of fact, Dexter breeders would get their noses out of joint when anyone would suggest Dexters were miniature cattle. Dexters are a dwarf breed of cattle and when the dwarf genetics are removed from a herd, and linebreeding is used to control size. . . . . the herd is actually a herd of miniature cattle and those built on significant outcrossing in their pedigrees should be organized into a new breed of minature cattle and appropriately given a new breed identity.
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Post by cascade on Jun 27, 2017 17:44:18 GMT
The words "dwarf" and "miniature" are interchangeable in agriculture. Dwarf = " an animal or plant much below normal size" www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dwarfMiniature = "A thing that is much smaller than normal" en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/miniatureIn agriculture,there are no hard rules for using those terms. They both get used to simply describe plants or animals that are smaller than typical. Dexters are a breed of cattle that are much smaller than normal cattle. Therefore one could say that they are a miniature breed of cattle, or a dwarf breed of cattle, or a little breed of cattle, or a small breed of cattle, or a compact breed of cattle. The terms "Dwarf" and "Miniature" carry a lot of baggage because lots of people have their own twisted definitions of those terms. While Dexters ARE a miniature breed of cattle, they are NOT miniature versions of some other existing breed. Lowlines are a miniature breed of cattle and they are also miniature versions of Angus. Mini-Herefords are mini-cattle, and they also are miniature versions of full-sized Herefords. Dexters are mini-cattle, but they aren't miniature versions of some other breed. Dexters are a miniaturized conglomeration of many other breeds including beef breeds and dairy breeds. Dexters were miniaturized so long ago (late 1800's) that we forget that they are a miniaturized breed. Dexters are an invented breed, just like lots of other invented breeds. In the late 1800's, the inventors of the Dexter breed decided to create a separate miniature breed of cattle with beef frames and milkable udders (pretty cool idea), so they rounded up a bunch of short beefy cross-breeds with milkable udders and started inbreeding them to concentrate their characteristics. True breeds require inbreeding to stabilize their breed characteristics. The purpose of breed registries is to force inbreeding and to limit outcrossing. The first breed standard published in 1900 clearly describes a breed of miniature beef cattle, with milkable udders, where every animal has thick quarters and short legs and broad heads (that was the new trend in beef breeds at the time). The inventors of the new Dexter breed in the late 1890's were simply chasing the beef trend toward shorter legs, thicker quarters, and wide heads.... Wide heads and shorter legs in livestock and poultry provides for extra efficient meat production. Whenever you select for a compact beef frame with shorter legs, unwanted defect genes can sneak in. It happened in Herefords, Angus, and Dexters. The Hereford and Angus people culled their defective genes.
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Post by lonecowhand on Jun 27, 2017 18:32:01 GMT
Spare us the "Fractured Fairy Tales" made- up history lessons.
Since "Dwarf" and "Miniature" are apparently the same terms for this discussion, we won't be needing to hear any more from you about the evils of ACAN genes or chondrodysplasia!
It' a good day!
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Post by cascade on Jun 27, 2017 22:00:47 GMT
Hundreds of bad things can dwarf the size of an animal, including lack of certain minerals, lack of enough protein, lack of certain vitamins, lack of sunshine, lack of aggrecan which causes cartilage defects, bone defects, blood disorders, chemical poisoning, metabolism disorders, thyroid disorders, parasites, injuries, etc..
The terms "miniature" and "dwarf" simply refer to the small size of the animal.
More information is needed to understand WHY an animal is dwarfed.
There are nutritional dwarfs and bone-disease dwarfs and cartilage disease dwarfs (Chondrodysplasia), and chemically poisoned dwarfs.
There are also normal, healthy dwarfs/miniatures that simply have healthy naturally compact genetics.
Healthy, true-breeding short dexters, with naturally compact genetics can be safely bred on each other and result in 100% healthy true-short naturally compact offspring. That's what the first breed standard called for.
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