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Post by Donlin Stud on Jun 27, 2017 22:14:52 GMT
The terms "miniature" and "dwarf" simply refer to the small size of the animal. MMMmmmm not quite Dwarf is cause to seem small or insignificant in comparison. Miniature is a thing that is very small of its kind So the Dexter breed is not miniature as its not small for its kind.
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Post by cascade on Jun 28, 2017 2:06:41 GMT
"The average normal female cow size across all standard breeds was 1,390 lbs. Herefords came in heaviest, at 1,419 lbs., followed by Angus at 1,410 lbs., then Red Angus at 1,409 lbs. In the middle were Simmental cows at 1,404 lbs., and the lightest three breeds were Gelbvieh at 1,323 lbs., Limousin at 1,391 lbs. and Charolais at 1,371 lbs."
Dexter females are 500-800 pounds. They are MUCH smaller than typical cows, and so that means they are miniature cattle.
Too many people are easily confused by terms like miniature and dwarf, so it can be easier to say Dexters are a small breed of cattle, or compact breed of cattle.
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Post by teatpuller11 on Jun 28, 2017 4:45:00 GMT
Judy has been the catalyst for so much, maybe she'd like to take on changing the description? No one has mentioned pygmy or midget yet. Dwarf does have a negative associated with it, so why not start a new term, and call Dexters pygmy cattle? or Lowdex. We could even think about minimoo?
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Post by bruff64 on Jun 28, 2017 15:15:39 GMT
"Dexter females are 500-800 pounds. They are MUCH smaller than typical cows, and so that means they are miniature cattle."
Beg to differ, they have always been historically termed the smallest breed of cattle. Miniature is a relatively modern label.
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Post by cascade on Jun 28, 2017 15:55:43 GMT
By definition, the smallest breeds of any species, including goats, sheep, horses, dogs, pigs, and cattle are "miniature" or "dwarf" in size compared to the average for the species.
In chickens, they call the small ones bantams, but by definition, they still can accurately be described as Miniature or Dwarf compared to average sized chickens.
The point is that terms like "small", "bantam", "miniature", "dwarf", "pygmy" all simply mean smaller than usual.
The term "dwarf" by itself, tells us nothing about what is causing the plant or animal to be small.
Saying that Dexters are a "dwarf breed" is the same as saying that Dexters are "one of the smallest breeds"
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Post by bruff64 on Jun 28, 2017 18:50:57 GMT
Again I beg to differ. A bantam leghorn is a miniature of a standard Leghorn. A Dexter is a bantam of nothing, it is what it is already, simply the smallest breed of the cattle species.
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Post by teatpuller11 on Jun 28, 2017 23:53:01 GMT
But weren't all the first Dexters simply dwarf Kerry?
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Post by cascade on Jun 28, 2017 23:59:06 GMT
Bruff,
Way up above, I made a statement that mostly agrees with you.
Dexters are NOT miniature versions of some other breed of cattle. But they are miniature cattle.
When you put the word "miniature" or "dwarf" in front of most any thing, it simply means a smaller version of that thing.
Chihuahua dogs are NOT miniature versions of some specific big breed of dog, but Chihuahua dogs ARE miniature dogs.
It's really quite simple.
Miniature cattle are any cattle that are on the shorter end of the spectrum of cattle sizes.
Dexters are miniature cattle.
That said, I steer clear of the words "miniature" and "dwarf" because those words usually carry some negative baggage.
"Dwarf" in livestock can often have disease connotations... "Miniature" in livestock can often have useless pet connotations.
"Small" is usually an ok word, but it can raise productivity issues.
"Compact" is a pretty good word with mostly positive and productive meaning.
Dexters are a compact and productive breed of cattle.
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Post by cascade on Jun 29, 2017 0:08:27 GMT
The word "Dexter" was used in the Kerry area of Ireland to denote any shorter-legged compact animal or person. It was first applied to some compact sheep.
The "First Dexter Cattle" were "Dexter Kerry Cattle" simply meaning "any shorter-legged compact beefy cattle found in the Kerry area of Ireland"... Many were simply crosses with shorter-legged beef-framed animals from England.
In the later 1800's, beef framed cattle (many red colored) with shorter legs and wide beefy head were being imported into the Kerry area of Ireland, these provided the basis to blend with the old black dairyish Kerry cattle to make a new breed with a beef-frame including short legs, but with a milkable udder.
Chondrodysplasia snuck in as an uninvited intruder.
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Post by bruff64 on Jul 8, 2017 1:59:47 GMT
You are trying again to write your own version of history. In the latter 1800's the Dexter was valued more as a milk cow than a beef cow. Your fabrications regarding intentional breeding for beef characteristics back in those days are fiction. There are endless milk records on Dexters and accompanying awards that validate the milk qualities of the breed back then. Not much in the way of awards or validation for beef characteristics. In those times in Ireland a small milk cow was of value to the general population and Mr. Dexter or whomever selected from the stock that already existed. The only possible scenario of the Dexter being miniature would be to the Kerry breed of which it was considered closely related if not the same. The Dexter above is 39" at the hip, measured today, at 2.5 years old. Had her first calf in April. I don't consider her miniature of anything. She is a purebred Dexter, smallest of the cattle breeds. And, she is Chondro Negative. She has a good udder, 4 even quarters, level, with nice size teats for hand milking. She is not what I would consider beefy in traits. She is what I consider a yesterday Dexter (or Traditional). The beef craze is a modern malady in the breed.
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Post by bruff64 on Jul 8, 2017 2:08:10 GMT
In contrast to the above, this Chondro Positive cow is 38" at the hip, measured today, and is 4.5 years old, and gave us her 3rd calf in may. As you can see, the Traditional or Yesterdays Dexters do not have the wild hidden behemoth gene that is masked by Chondroplasia. I would wager that is more of a problem with the upgraded cattle. I measured my Kerrys today as well, both 3 year old cows are 47" at the hip. The consistency that you seek is in the Traditional Dexters. The beef traits you seek are in the miniature Herefords (true miniatures).
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Post by bruff64 on Jul 8, 2017 2:22:08 GMT
For further contrast, this is a miniature Hereford, a miniature version of a Large Hereford. She measured today at 39" at the hip, 2.5 years old. She has the short leg, beef frame and beefy wide head that you desire. She is also mostly red! She has a long pedigree that contains no upgrades. She is purebred. No one is trying to transform her into a milky breed for homestead dairies. Just as friendly as a Dexter. Not quite as smart as a Dexter, but that can be a good thing. Cascade, your short legged beefy framed miniature cow exists! No need to reinvent the wheel.
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Post by cascade on Jul 8, 2017 21:36:03 GMT
Much of what you think is the history of Dexters, is actually the history of Kerry cattle. Kerry were a poor man's mostly dairy breed with some dual purpose nature.
Dexters are an invented breed. They didn't exist as a breed until some fairly well-off people decided to isolate some short, thick animals in a new breed called Dexters in the late 1800's.
If you read the first description of the Dexter frame type written in 1842, or read the early published breed standard from 1900, you'll see that they both simply describe a 100% beef frame (not a dairy frame, and not even a dual purpose frame). The Dexter frame is the opposite of what makes a good dairy frame.
Here's the 1900 breed standard. Everything about the frame standard is beef oriented, even the horns are the size and shape typically found in beef breeds:
The 1900 standard describes a short, thick, beef breed with a milkable udder.
"Head AND Neck.--Head short and broad, with great width between the eyes, and tapering gracefully towards muzzle, which should be large, with wide distended nostrils. Eyes bright, prominent, and of a kind and placid expression.
Neck short, deep and thick, and well set into the shoulders, which, when viewed in front, should be wide, showing thickness through the heart, the breast coming well forward.
Horns.-These should be short and moderately thick, springing well from the head, with an inward and slightly upward curve.
Body.--Shoulders of medium thickness, full and well filled in behind, hips wide, quarters thick and deep and well sprung, flat and wide across loins, well ribbed up, straight underline, udder well forward, and broad behind with well placed teats of moderate size, legs short (especially from knee to fetlock), strong, and well placed under body, which should be as close to the ground as possible. Tail well set on and level 'with back."
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Post by bruff64 on Aug 2, 2017 17:29:29 GMT
“In a century where size is so often worshiped, this little black breed has been retained for what it is – a converter of natural herbage into meat and milk. So often in so many classes of livestock the world over, ‘improvement’ has meant greater size, higher milk yield, a standard conformation and greater reliance on concentrated feed. In the process the purpose for which the stock was first intended is lost, while the very people who first evolved it to suit their own conditions may no longer afford it.” Edward Hart 1993.
That quote was in reference to Kerry Cattle. But it is just as relevant to this conversation regarding Dexters. The never ending quest to turn something into something else based on market preferences. It seems to me that transforming Dexters into a polled beef breed is a copout. Especially when there were established breeds like the miniature Hereford and Lowline already out there with that phenotype. The breeders that orchestrated the fraud are where cheats. The subsequent breeders that unknowingly bought these cattle are innocent. A real breeder does not need to cheat, simply exercise diligence in the craft.
The primary reason to stay the course and maintain a population of true Traditional Dexters is to maintain traits in the original breed without the influences of the SPs. Once bred away these traits are very difficult to recover in the original form. Look at the milk production qualities that have already lost ground to the non-selective breeding decisions toward the beef phenotype in Traditionals.
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Post by cascade on Aug 3, 2017 2:53:06 GMT
The original Dexter Breed Standard describes Dexters as a compact beef breed with a thick beef frame, but also a milkable udder. Saltaire Platinum was famous for his beefiness and his milk traits and he was very compact. He also tests as pure as any of the purest of Dexters. Many of his descendants are compact, beefy, and milky, just as the original traditional breed standard requires. Here's a Saltaire Platinum descendant that perfectly meets the Traditional Dexter Breed Standard, except she's hornless.
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Post by jamshundred on Aug 4, 2017 1:08:40 GMT
Kirk, she really does not meet the Dexter breed standard. And. . . . in appearance she more closely resembles a red Angus or a Red Poll. No offense intended.
What you either do not "get", or stubbornly refuse to acknowledge is that the dwarf Dexter was simply unique in the world of cattle. Even the "dwarfness" was unique. The traits that carried on those dwarf genetics were treasured, but there were not only genetic traits connected to the dwarf, there were traits exhibited in the phenotype as well.
Kirk, I have NOT seen a single photo of an early Dexter, ( and I think I've seen just about all of them), that looks like this red cow and were her head front on visable, she would look even less like the early Dexters.
I must say it again. I am sorry you were caught up in the "big lie", for your passion for natural methods in general, and for Dexters in particular, could have been of great benefit in the effort to preserve the early most natural genetics and traits in the breed. Miniaturizing a line that has multiple outcrossings and a distinctive non-breed characteristic does not cut it. It is distressing to see what could be a valuable resource wasting time on building a hybrid population.
I started to hit "create post", but I want to say one more thing. You surely notice after many years that you are not getting the consistency you thought would come. You are adament in refusing to see the forest for the trees, yet in my dwarf cattle, I see an amazing consistency . . . without even trying in my dwarf cattle. I have a Legacy dwarf cow who has been bred to three different bulls and three different bloodlines both dwarf and non-dwarf and the daughters are carbon copies. One thing I noticed early on breeding the early bloodlines is that they tend to "throw back" to the early genetics. Breeders like YOU should be working Kirk to save the old. . .. not make something new. New rarely stays the course. You can begin with just a couple animals and you would be quite surprised, I am positive. . . .at how quickly you would have a herd of exceptionally special in your pasture.
Another thought. Recently I had a conversation with Gary Pritchard of the Pisgah herd. I've recently been given a number of photos of his cattle. One of his bulls he picked up in the east and took to the west was used in an AI breeding and in recent months calved a beautiful little calf. . . . . just like calves of old, 30 years after his Daddy was making the same kind of calves. This calf WAS predictable and lived up to the experience many of us have tried to impart to modern owners.
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Post by cascade on Aug 4, 2017 3:53:57 GMT
The reason why livestock standards are written, instead of using photos for the standard, is because it's rare that an animal completely matches the standard... I've seen many old historical Dexter photos that didn't match the written historical standard.
The 1900 standard describes a thick beefy shorter-legged frame, with a milkable udder.
Read the 1840's description and the 1900 Standard, and tell me where the pictured red cow above, doesn't conform (other than horns).
Here is the 1840's description:
" a remarkable roundness of form and shortness of legs."
" short legs, and a small space from the knee and hock to the hoofs. This has probably given rise to a saying sometimes heard of, 'Tipperary beef down to the heels'. However the Dexter breed has been formed, it still retains its name, and the roundness and depth of carcase which distinguished it."
Here's the original Dexter Breed Standard of 1900:
1. The Dexter is essentially both a milk-producing and a beef making breed, and both these points should, in judging, be taken Into consideration.
2. Colour.--Bulls.-Whole black or whole red (the two colours being of equal merit). A little white on organs of generation not to disqualify an animal which answers all other essentials of this standard description.
Cows.-Whole black or whole red (the two colours being of equal merit). Black with white on the udder, or red with white on bag. The extension of the white of the udder slightly along the inside of flank or under side of the belly, or a little white on end of tail, shall not be held to disqualify an animal which answers all other essentials of this standard description. .
3. Head AND Neck.--Head short and broad, with great width between the eyes, and tapering gracefully towards muzzle, which should be large, with wide distended nostrils. Eyes bright, prominent, and of a kind and placid expression.
Neck short, deep and thick, and well set into the shoulders, which, when viewed in front, should be wide, showing thickness through the heart, the breast coming well forward.
Horns.-These should be short and moderately thick, springing well from the head, with an inward and slightly upward curve.
4. Body.--Shoulders of medium thickness, full and well filled in behind, hips wide, quarters thick and deep and well sprung, flat and wide across loins, well ribbed up, straight underline, udder well forward, and broad behind with well placed teats of moderate size, legs short (especially from knee to fetlock), strong, and well placed under body, which should be as close to the ground as possible. Tail well set on and level 'with back.
5. Skin.--The skin should be soft and mellow, and handle well, not too thin, hair fine, plentiful and silky.
6. Dexter Bulls should not exceed 900 Lbs., live weight, when in breeding condition.
Dexter Cows should not exceed 800 Lbs., live weight, when in breeding condition.
- - - - -
Notice no mention of the three phenotypes associated with BullDog-type Chondrodysplasia Dwarfism, and notice no mention of fine-boned dairy features.
Notice the 1840's description doesn't mention horns nor udders nor milk, but focuses on beef.
Notice the 1900 standard describes a beef breed frame, but with a milkable udder.
PS. I could absolutely achieve consistency of body form fairly quickly, but I'm working on tons of things including perfect behavior, and good udders, and parasite resistance, and many other things all at the same time
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Post by jamshundred on Aug 5, 2017 12:35:57 GMT
Kirk,
Good grief . .. . stop wasting space and time. The ONLY reason you have the 1900 breed standard is because. .. . . . . . *I* made it available to breeders through the historical records, so you don't have to keep posting it. And since it describes DWARF cattle to the "D", I am surprised you do. You have not got a single head in your herd that is described in that breed description because those heads with the wide foreheads, big expressive eyes on the side of the skull, and the dish faces descend from dwarfs.
Freedom from parasites is NOT very hard at all with a closed herd so you should have accomplished that rather quickly.
From what I have seen Kirk, you are breeding for miniature Angus or lowline types. . . . not Dexters, ( which are not a miniature in the first place).
Kirk, you are NOT ever going to have the treasured characteristics of the Dexter breed without using dwarf Dexters to get there.
You will NEVER have the superior immune system of the dwarf carriers and their offspring, and the dwarf trait of ease of calving can rapidly be lost when standard sized animals are miniaturized.
And you will never achieve the minimal forage to maximum potential without the dwarf genes. Your smaller cattle might eat less.. . . . .but it is not how much they convert but what they convert that counts.
You are missing the boat ensign!
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Post by cascade on Aug 6, 2017 17:58:45 GMT
1.Parasite resistance requires ongoing culling of any animals that especially appear to need to be dewormed when most of the herd is ok. Deworming never kills all the parasites, so even closed herds still have parasites... Additionally, my herd is closed to other cattle, but visitors (with shoes from other farms) and wildlife are common. I have accomplished parasite resistance very well, but the nature of genetic shuffling can occasionally give you a calf with less natural resistance than others in the herd, and I cull any of those. There haven't been any in recent years. 2. The Chondrodysplasia type commonly found in Dexters, is simply a broken ACAN gene, that was supposed to produce normal cartilage, but can't because the gene is broken. That broken ACAN gene has no effect on immune systems. 3. Living Dexter's that have Chondrodysplasia, have one broken ACAN gene and one functional ACAN gene. The non-chondro offspring inherit NOTHING related to Chondrodysplasia. 4. Shorter, stockier animals are much better at feed conversion and getting fat than taller lankier animals. Using the chondrodysplasia gene to achieve that short and stocky efficiency is no good, because no more than 50% of calves can be born with chondro. But you can achieve 100% short and stocky and efficient Dexters by selecting for naturally short and stocky genetics. Many of the foundation Dexters had naturally short and stocky genetics (only some had Chondrodysplasia). 5. The original "Dexters" were selected from a mixed population of cattle in the Kerry area of Ireland. In that area, the word "Dexter" essentially meant miniature (shorter than typical). Dexter-Kerry meant any short cow (of any breed) in the Kerry area of Ireland. Lowline Angus were "miniaturized" when a sub-group of shorter Angus were isolated from the general population of Angus. Dexters were "miniaturized" when a sub-group of short beefy cattle in the Kerry area were isolated (via a separate registry for Dexters). Whenever a breed is selected for shortness, dwarfism-defect genes can sneak in. So some Dexters had truly short genetics and some suffered from genetic cartilage/bone defects. The 1900 breed standard described a breed with true-short genetics, because it said 100% of Dexters should be short and thick. 6. Judy, you have done tons of valuable research which is greatly appreciated. But I'm here to help you interpret that research via my extensive knowledge of genetics and science and logic. 7. Concerning head shape... Here are the exact words from the 1900 Standard: "Head short and broad, with great width between the eyes, and tapering gracefully towards muzzle, which should be large, with wide distended nostrils. Eyes bright, prominent, and of a kind and placid expression." That's a typical compact beef head description. Here a front view of one of my typical bulls... Other than horns, he matches the 1900 breed description perfectly.
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Post by jamshundred on Aug 7, 2017 1:09:56 GMT
No...he does not and he never could.
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Post by cascade on Aug 7, 2017 5:30:55 GMT
Here is every word of the Traditional Dexter Head standard from the year 1900.... 1. Head short and broad 2. Great width between the eyes 3. Tapering gracefully towards muzzle, which should be large 4. with wide distended nostrils. 5. Eyes bright, prominent, and of a kind and placid expression. Yep, he has a perfect Traditional Dexter Head and has a kind and placid personality.
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Post by jamshundred on Aug 7, 2017 22:19:40 GMT
Nope. Would NOT qualify to be registered. Keep trying.
Might be qualified for a Red Angus or Red Poll registration but not as a Dexter in 1900.
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Post by cascade on Aug 8, 2017 0:08:44 GMT
So you're saying Dexters that lack horns, as described in the 1900 standard, can't be Traditional.
Better tell everyone that dehorned Dexters can no longer be considered Traditional.
I guess that makes the Old Orchard herd "Modern".
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Post by lonecowhand on Aug 9, 2017 23:11:14 GMT
Keep putting words in others mouths , it makes your comments so much more believable...
As we may have mentioned in the distant past, Horned and Polled are different.
Horned, whose horns are physically removed, will produce a horned offspring every time.
Polled, who have no horns due to outcrossing with a polled strain, have a non-dexter ancestor to change the breed.
You may get any number of attributes not related to Dexters at all.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Aug 10, 2017 2:58:27 GMT
Since Cascade is doing his best to re-define the use of the term "Traditional Dexter" over the intended use to describe a Dexter without upgrades in the pedigree, I propose to re-define what Cascade breeds. I think he breeds with carriers of "Polled Hornless Alleles" Since that is a mouthful, I suggest that we shorten it to "PHA carriers". So from now on we just refer to his herd of Dexters as "PHA carriers".
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Post by cascade on Aug 10, 2017 4:10:27 GMT
I thought dehorned Dexters were Potentially Horned Animals (PHA).
All kidding aside, the problem you have is that your definitions are confusing and nonsensical.
Your Confusing Definitions:
Short-legged = the animal may or may not have short legs, but it may have a genetic cartilage disease called Chondrodysplasia, but since you don't test, you don't know for certain.
Long-Legged = the animal may have short legs, but it doesn't have Chondrodysplasia, but you don't test, so you're just guessing.
Traditional Dexter = The animal may look nothing like the traditional dexter standard.
My Logical Definitions:
Short Legs = the animal has short legs
Long legs = the animal has long legs
Chondrodysplasia = The animal has chondro
Traditional = The animal matches the Traditional Breed Standard.
All Dexters have upgrades on their pedigrees, because no Dexters trace 100% back to herdbook #1 in Dublin, Ireland
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Post by lonecowhand on Aug 10, 2017 23:30:24 GMT
They only seem non-sensical to You.
Everyone else here seems able to grasp the concept that there needs to be a category of Dexter that represent the closest one will get to the genetic original critter, without upgrading or outcrossing to other breeds.
Shortlegs, a category I particularly like, sounds more familiar and cute than chondrowhatevah. we all know what causes the canon boneblah blah blah. But we like it. What part of that don't you get?
This is getting really old.
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