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Post by jamshundred on Jun 26, 2017 23:30:41 GMT
ADCA just had their AGM. It seems it probably didn't go very well. Photos imply the attendance left much to be desired, and the sale of animals, according to comments and reports was pretty bad. Hardly anything sold in the auction. So let's discuss that for a minute. I've been to auctions which covered a variety of things. Antigues, collectibles, tools, machinary, livestock, and everything in life that someone once owned and no longer will be using. I've witnessed owners ortheir shills bidding up their own property, ( illegal in my state and I think lots of others and boy does that irk me), and I've witnessed an auctioneer knocking down cheap or no-bid items to a "ghost" number which was the auctioneer himself, and then putting those items or others into a future auction and running up the bidding. I don't go to any auctions where there are reserves, or where there is a buyer fee. Defeats the historical purpose of an auction. So, discussion has it that animals that sold were sold AFTER the auction in the barns. Is that fair to bidders? Is it ethical to offer an animal at auction, not sell it to a bidder, and then sell it in the barn privately? Next, I see ADCA members showing off their ADCA signs, on which is stated, "largest Irish Dexter registry in the world". They have been saying this for more than a year, and they have been called on it. . . . even to the point where the actualy largest registry in the world posted on their front page, their stats. It was said that the person who investigated the numbers and determined ADCa to be the largest was questioned. . . after the claim was questioned and insisted it was correct. I think it is a case of someone with little worldly experience in Dexters not understanding the UK numbering system. Let me educate them yet again. Currently ADCA nears 42000 registrations on record for all time. This number includes cows, bulls and steers and the duplication registration of foreign animals who connect to US born animals in a number of instances. So. . . . 42,000. Dexter Cattle Society has just a handful shy of 55000 fully registered cows which have unique F numbers, 6800 fully registered bulls which have unique M numbers, and 36000 steers and full pedigree Dexters that were not fully registered but birth recorded. So. A few thousand short of 100,00 animals. This appeared on the DCS website after ADCA started publishing their erroneous claim on the web. ADCA is not registering half that number. Actually, this year I think the numbers are way off. Dexter owners are dropping out. One has to wonder about the leadership of ADCA and the desperate need to appear the best, rather than be the best. Next, Hans posted an ad for one of his bulls, offering it one price with Legacy registration and a higher price with an ADCA registration. Makes sense. Costs more to register ADCA! An ADCA Director got in his face. It must be frustrating to always be coughing on Legacy dust. The harder they try to eliminate the competition ( and it has been a major focus for a few years) the harder Legacy works for Dexter owners. They don't get it. ( That's it's about the owners and the Dexters. . . . not the associations which have done little for either.) This story I must tell for a reader here who may appreciate it. I'm still fuming over the resolution of the bull named Golden Oak who was helped into the registry by a member of the ADCA genetics committee with one sample investigated and declared to be the sire when UCD requires a minimum of TEN samples of connected animals, none of which can be offspring. Recently, I learned that the same person was "profiling" another bull to get it into the registry. I inquired why this person was doing the genotype research rather than members of the genetic committee where I should think the responsibility belongs. I was told that the horse's mouth commented the members of the ADCA genetics committee are stupid and don't know what they are doing. The opinions that come from the mouth of "friends" indeed! I saw a 13 year old cow entered in the registry without even a genotype. This stuff has been going on for years now, and there has been ample time to make a rule that certain animals being submitted for registry are required to be genotyped. Amazing. Which brings me to yet another "one of those" ADCA loyalist challenges about the safe-keeping of samples and results. Could someone please tell these newbies that ALL the ADCA results were contracted out for research. LOL. They were in the possession of one person who had results mailed to her home, and they were on the private computer of another person who was not authorized to have possession of them. The ONLY entity that has ever been careless with DNA tests and results is ADCA. I was trying to identify some animals on the ADCA registry. . . . and my goodness what a mess it is! They should spend less time fretting and focusing on Legacy's accomplishments and clean up that mess! Breeders names are missing or deleted and so are owners names. It does not give the impression of professionalism for a researcher. Probably more to chat about. . . . . but there is always another day.
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Post by bruff64 on Jun 28, 2017 15:13:15 GMT
Seems political to me. Poppy, with three full generations of sire and dam genotype verification was registered and then un-registered. The Genetics committee of the ADCA would have nothing of it and offered no help. It is who you know over there. Alas, that is why I removed my support for the organization.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2017 21:34:43 GMT
Not sure why it would be any of the ADCA business how Hans chooses to price his animals.
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Post by Donlin Stud on Jun 28, 2017 22:05:48 GMT
Seems political to me. Poppy, with three full generations of sire and dam genotype verification was registered and then un-registered. The Genetics committee of the ADCA would have nothing of it and offered no help. It is who you know over there. Alas, that is why I removed my support for the organization. OMG - They cant do that !!!! You cant de register a registered animal unless its the owner who requests this There are legal ramifications that can be pursed by the owner - afterall cattle are commodity. This is why the Dexter associations over here have active and inactive statuses - because they CAN NOT de register What was the reason they felt they could do such a thing?
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Post by bruff64 on Jun 28, 2017 23:21:40 GMT
All the parents were ADCA Registered except the sire, whom came from ADCA Registered parents but was himself only registered in Legacy. Dam was registered in both Legacy and ADCA. However, the sires and dams were genotyped back 3 generations, predating ADCA requirements for the same. Point is, this cow has a pedigree that goes way back and there is no question of purity. It should have been a simple matter for the Genetics Committee to make a determination that she qualified as pure. Yet crossbreds abound in the registry today and looks like other bulls that have less proof of purity as mentioned above are allowed in. So they registered her, then decided that they had made a political mistake and changed her certificate to "deceased". She had her third bull calf in May of this year and she is decidedly un-deceased. So in the end I saw the Genetics Committee for what it is, a political group, not a scienced based decision making body. All my cattle have since been registered Legacy only.
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Post by Donlin Stud on Jun 29, 2017 3:04:27 GMT
I read that as an actual personal attack via third party means.
If the ADCA truly had the integrity of the Dexter breed in America at heart, it would have politely ‘asked’ for the sire in question to be ADCA registered. Not carried on like self-serving childish idiots
Well the ADCA’s loss!!!!
Thank goodness for Legacy so your Dexters remain recorded for future historical purposes. Because that is the TRUE purpose of a breed association.
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Post by bruff64 on Jun 29, 2017 3:21:08 GMT
To be fair, they did ask that I register the sire in question. However, I do not own that sire and I feel it unethical to register someone else's animal in a registry they do not support. The bull met all of the technical requirements but ADCA does not recognize Legacy. At that juncture it was evident to me that the cattle themselves were not the focus or priority with ADCA. Add the prior schnanagins and it added up to a growing list of negatives.
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Post by bruff64 on Jun 29, 2017 3:25:40 GMT
ADCA's loss.....not really, they have enough members so my issue is of no significance to them. My cattle are registered all the same.
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Post by cascade on Jun 29, 2017 5:09:42 GMT
The ADCA is made up of good well-meaning Dexter cattle breeders as members.. The members in each region, choose a fellow member to represent them on the board. The board has established some clear rules, and the members and registrar simply follow those clear logical rules.
I've registered scores of Dexters via the ADCA with zero problems by simply following the documented rules. Fast, simple, problem-free.
It takes me 5 minutes to submit a registration online, and the registrar has it completed within a few days.. super simple.
You guys must be doing something wrong.
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Post by bruff64 on Jun 29, 2017 9:11:31 GMT
I bet if she was Red and polled I would have had zero issues.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2017 14:40:09 GMT
The ADCA is made up of good well-meaning Dexter cattle breeders as members.. The members in each region, choose a fellow member to represent them on the board. The board has established some clear rules, and the members and registrar simply follow those clear logical rules. I've registered scores of Dexters via the ADCA with zero problems by simply following the documented rules. Fast, simple, problem-free. It takes me 5 minutes to submit a registration online, and the registrar has it completed within a few days.. super simple. You guys must be doing something wrong. this is a nice fairy tail but not even close to what actually happens.
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Post by cascade on Jun 29, 2017 17:02:05 GMT
I've registered many blacks and several with horns. All very simple and fast and problem-free.
The ADCA works very well, if it didn't, you can bet that I'd run for a director position and I'd help clean it up. My directors have always listened to any issues I've had, and have taken appropriate action. I don't always get my way, but I usually get a pretty good compromise.
You guys have created your own problems.
Instead of sticking with the ADCA and helping to improve it over the years, and compromising, you and your kind ran off and created your own fly-by-night registries, with your own flaky rules that don't match the ADCA rules.
Now you want the ADCA to bend their rules and procedures to fit you back in.
10-20 years from now, all the fly-by-night registries will be gone, because they are too dependent on too-few rapidly graying individuals.
Meanwhile,the ADCA will still be thriving 50 years from now as they are a world-class organization with by-laws and operating procedures and a board and officers that are regularly replaced, and a hired registrar that is easily replaced.
Like all good organizations, ADCA isn't dependent on any particular individuals.
PS. I do hope someone keeps Judy's historical dexter pedigree database alive forever, because it's so much fun to look at those old records all in one place.
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Post by Donlin Stud on Jun 29, 2017 21:58:57 GMT
Cascade, thats a little close minded - fancy NOT recognising Legacy as a registry when eligibility criteria is the same, or more stringent (sorry showing my ignorance here for ADCA's requirements).
Associations who genuinely cared about the breed they are representing would not make such [personally-focused] stances. And its streaming personal since ADCA recognises Dexters from registries with Grade-up programs.
Eligibility for registration yes, there must be criteria that is met to ensure the integrity of the breed remains true into the future. But if eligibility has been met - a 'transfer' would have sufficed.
Such behaviour is childish and detrimental to the Dexter as a breed
And Yes Bruf - you cant register a bull you do not own - you dont register cars that dont belong to you.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jun 29, 2017 23:10:05 GMT
Not sure why it would be any of the ADCA business how Hans chooses to price his animals. It shouldn't be...the "question" was raised on a post of a Dexter that I had for sale no less. I said I'd create another thread, and then deleted and re-posted the sale ad without the comment. The question was why do I discount the Legacy only registered Dexter, when the cost to register with ADCA was the same? First of all, the cost isn't the same. Second, clearly he didn't consider that my time has any value at all. Given the hoops I have to jump through to register ADCA, it is considerably more work to register with ADCA than Legacy alone. Sending genotype report from UCDavis to ADCA, separately e mailing the test results to the registrar, then filling in all of the information on the application, then receiving the registration and double-checking that all of the information is correct, and then filling in all of the customer information (many of our customers are not ADCA members), and transferring the registration. I earn a "little" bit more than minimum wage, so let's say for the sake of discussion it's $150 worth of my time to go through all that. Multiply that by maybe 50 calves per year....Yeah, it costs more. Supposedly the ADCA provides me with a lot of benefits....never once have I received a referral originating from an ADCA inquiry. Yet I read in the bulletin in our region that "a lot of interest in Dexters from new people". Do they just evaporate? On the other hand, in the past two years I've added, through our own sales efforts and through referrals, 25 brand new members to the ADCA. Most of them didn't care if they were ADCA members or not. If the customer wishes to register them with the ADCA, we can do it for a higher price, or they can both save themselves some money and do the registration/transfer themselves. I'm not going to do it for free any longer.
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Post by karenp on Jun 30, 2017 1:42:30 GMT
Seems political to me. Poppy, with three full generations of sire and dam genotype verification was registered and then un-registered. The Genetics committee of the ADCA would have nothing of it and offered no help. It is who you know over there. Alas, that is why I removed my support for the organization. Was Poppy the cow you sent me pictures of, Christmas's off spring?
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Post by bruff64 on Jun 30, 2017 9:27:22 GMT
"Was Poppy the cow you sent me pictures of, Christmas's off spring?" Yes, that is her.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2017 14:09:30 GMT
I seen on facebook the ADCA now seams to be firing everyone. Looks the editor was the latest to go.
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Post by bruff64 on Jul 7, 2017 14:42:37 GMT
Symptoms of a broken system
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Post by cascade on Jul 7, 2017 14:58:08 GMT
Good organizations with good bylaws regularly replace individuals who hold positions in the organization. Good organizations aren't dependent on any particular individuals.
Organizations that are too dependent on particular individuals, fail when those individuals die or move on.
I wouldn't trust any of my livestock records with any registries that are too dependent on any particular individuals.
ADCA is thriving because it doesn't depend on any particular individuals... All officers, directors, position holders are easily replaced.
ADCA will be here long after the others fail.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2017 15:04:54 GMT
good news for you Kirk looks like they now have an opening for a fiction writer
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Post by jamshundred on Jul 7, 2017 15:31:23 GMT
The secretary is going too!
The sad thing is that many, many, people with years of Dexter experience and knowledge have faded into the background or left entirely. Make a list of the members of leadership since 2004 that have been responsible for voting in changes that are detrimental to this breed, and are NO LONGER even in the breed or all but inactive. The percentage is daunting. The breed is being guided by people who have little or no experience in this breed or heritage breeds period, so is it any wonder the breed is unrecognizable?
Cascade is naive. As long as he has his nose you know where he will be just fine and singing praises supporting tyranny. He just hasn't crossed swords and if he truly believed in the principles on which our country and ADCA was founded, he would stand up instead of bending over.
Before 2005, ADCA members had RIGHTS. They had a voice. Today they DO NOT. They are just told they do, but an ADCA member can no longer even submit an agenda item without it having to be approved by leadership. The only opinion permitted an ADCA member is the one that ADCA agrees with.
The leadership is arrogant and dismissive of the membership. You absolutely do NOT cross ADCA by being a free thinker.
What has ADCA really done for you Kirk? Other than pass gossip about your personal life? ADCA does NOT have the best interests of the breed or it's breeders in their scope. They promote what brings money into the ADCA coffers, usually represented by members and registrations because they then have a "captive" bank account. The problem is. . . . those captives are dropping out in record numbers. Dexters are being lost to the breed in record numbers. ALL Dexters. The damage that ADCA leadership has caused this breed in less than two decades is immeasurable. A tragedy.
They corrupted the Talisman award, in doing so abusing the intent and permission of Mrs. Hays, who agreed to this award in her farm name. .. . ONLY . . . if it were to be given to regular members and not members of leadership. The winners were then to be on a committee to choose the next recipient. ADCA refused to honor a member who had been breeding Dexters for FIFTY years, served in many positions that guided ADCA through the years, and gave it to . .. . . . ta daaaaaaaa. . . yet another member of leadership! The committee and the awards are now made up of ADCA members of leadership.
Recently they removed the Coads from all committees. Another example/warning. . . . NOT to cross ADCA!
ADCA was threatening the OVDBA with the withholding of funds to keep Legacy and PDCA from participating in the show.
Then there is the obsessive need to lie about being the biggest and the bestest when they clearly hold that distinction only in the small minded-ness of the inner circle.
By the way, Kirk,. . . your registry told you in 2015 there were new and better things coming to accomodate the requests of the members who support the registry! Didn't happen. Then it was promised by the AGM in 2016. Didn't happen but it would happen by the fall of 2016. Oops. No progress in the fall of 2016. But wait. .. . 2017 will be the new target. ADCA is best at taking your money and using it to insure their power and control and a surface pretense they are working for you!
I do not need to add a disclaimer about my comments. I detest the "modern" leadership of ADCA for two reasons, the first being my belief they have ill-served the breed and it's owners, and secondly they went after me personally and professionally for (1) disagreeing with their actions(2) telling the truth about a prevailing lie. Big mistake. But dreadful decisions is what defines ADCA!
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Post by cascade on Jul 7, 2017 21:07:28 GMT
I'm an independent. I'll go with whatever registry/association that has smart bonafide rules and regulations and is controlled by an elected board and isn't dependent on too few specific individuals, and has the greatest chance of surviving 100 years into the future.
ADCA is the only US Dexter Registry that fits that description.
If I don't like some minor detail about the organization, I can speak up and my voice is ALWAYS heard.
Anyone not registering their Dexters via ADCA, risks having their animals stranded when the other registries go under.
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Post by jamshundred on Jul 7, 2017 23:54:41 GMT
Kirk, you keep saying that and yet History proves you are wrong.
The ..FIRST.. Dexter registry lasted less than three years.
the ..Second...dexter registry, the Royal Dublin society incorporated those records into the new registry and continued for 17 yrs before the registry ceased to exist. NOT A SINGLE record was lost.
The third Dexter registry was able to access those records to register descendants.
GEt the picture, duh? Then, let's continue.
The first Dexter registry in America managed one book before failing, but thank goodness there was someone who cared about making the record.
The second Dexter registry in America incorporated every one of those records into the second herd book. No data was lost because of the failure of the first.
The MOST risk the Dexter records in America have ever faced was with the modern ADCA. First, in 1987 when the Peerless herd family members who established, protected, and promoted ADCA were ran out of ADCA with the first nasty "takeover" and vile attacks on Mr. Logsdon's granddaughter. The registry records were taken from her and transferred to Rosemary Fleharty. In 2004, according to ADCA leadership scaremongers and attempted to convince the members the registry was at great risk and all but lost. Quite a bit of unwarranted drama actually. However, the registry WAS severely damaged during that period of time........by spiteful and punitive ADCA leadership who destroyed records. They erased records! And YOU find them competent and trustworthy caretakers? HA! They made a dreadful mess that continues to this day.
Alas. The next registrar, Chuck Daggett died. Another scramble to sort through it all.
Really KIrk, your argument is bull.
The privately owned business registry of miniature cattle established by Gradwhol barely blinked at his death.
The registry records of Legacy are as safe as those of ADCA, (actually I believe them to be safer because they archived at three locations. PDCA is also archived.
Wrong again Kirk, both in theory and in reality.
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Post by cascade on Jul 8, 2017 0:14:29 GMT
PDCA registrations are already in trouble because many aren't eligible for ADCA registration due to lack of genotyping. When PDCA goes under, those animals could be stranded. Having copies of records will be useless.
It's easy to get mad at your registry and run off and create your own start-up registry, but those startups fail 99% of the time.
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Post by lhaggard on Jul 8, 2017 1:25:00 GMT
Kirk, PDCA is not about to go under. The membership just elected a NEW President and Vice-President that is gonna make some good changes to PDCA. And with all the turmoil going on in ADCA, I suspect PDCA will gain more members that don't like the changes in ADCA.
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Post by bruff64 on Jul 8, 2017 1:37:07 GMT
"PDCA registrations are already in trouble because many aren't eligible for ADCA registration due to lack of genotyping. When PDCA goes under, those animals could be stranded. Having copies of records will be useless."
Really? Eligibility for ADCA registration is the threshold for Dexter Registration? Due to lack of genotyping?? Well Mister I have a cow that has genotyping, both dam and sire, that predates ADCA's eligibility requirements for same by 3 generations. She is registered with Legacy and I am very confident that my pedigrees are safe there. In fact, all of my herd is registered with Legacy - only - precisely because I do not have any confidence in ADCA. When I see a bad deal I don't hang around subjecting myself to more of the same in hopes that the situation will get better. ADCA is the organization that will have the legacy of dividing the breed. ADCA is the root of all the problems we have today. Every trail of tears leads back to ADCA. If Legacy or PDCA disappears for some reason (unlikely), my "useless" but very complete and thorough pedigrees will be transferable or worthy enough in detail and testing to enter into the Canadian Livestock Records Corp or start a new Registry. Not that hard actually. PDCA registrations are not "in trouble". ADCA seems to be.
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Post by jamshundred on Jul 8, 2017 3:42:03 GMT
Kirk, --Legacy aspires to make a permanent record of every living and every dead Dexter. A historical record of the breed. Your animals are welcome at Legacy, and frankly, for $5.00 a head, you should take advantage of helping to build the historical database. Legacy has never coveted either the PDCA members or the ADCA members, just the opportunity to get ALL Dexters in a database for future Dexter owners and to encourage the preservation of historical lines in the uS. ADCA has fought that tooth and nail, via a leadership that had not the foresight to see the positives and the benefits it offered for ADCA. Legacy kept the costs low and encouraged owners to participate in the association(s) of their choice, until those associations covertly and overtly made rules to harm Legacy supporters.
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Post by jamshundred on Jul 8, 2017 3:53:19 GMT
Update on ADCA whose leadership was described to me last week as " the most vindictive and hate filled novice cattle people to run the association". My opinion- the old timers are not novices in vindictive themselves. Now to the update.
Bulletin editor fired with no reason given and no replacement. Region 11 Director has resigned.
Might also mention that the first recipient of the Talisman award, Diane Mills-frank was removed from the committee as was Carol Davidson along with Sally Coad.
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Post by karenp on Jul 8, 2017 10:43:40 GMT
So, since we are on the subject of registries, could I get the background on how and why the PDCA came to be?
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Post by jamshundred on Jul 8, 2017 12:57:52 GMT
Karen,
It is a complicated story with several separate but convergent facets. I think there were lingering vestiges of the nasty political battle in 1987 that continued and festered. It has always been about power and control. No where in the course of events in this breed for a solid two decades do I see any evidence the struggles for control have ever been about protecting or preserving the Dexter breed, nor the rights and interests of the owners. It is always about one segment has governing authority and control and another segment wants it.
If you go to the historical section I have put as much info as was available from 2004 online. The problem then, as now, is that the members are always kept in the dark. Purposely. There is no trail of documents or minutes or discussions of those involved and members were told then....as they are now.....to not discuss issues in public but to go to their Directors. the Directors are always biased however by their own positions and allegiances, and there can be no worthwhile dialogue when it is not open to all for knowledge or participation. I tell you absolutely that members of both organizations are clueless as to the actual inner workings and dynamics of their organizations.
Judy
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