Post by jamshundred on Jul 17, 2017 18:16:57 GMT
I have been on the road and back - thus the late response.
Goodness. What is there to clear? I am saying that I am tired of hearing the phrase, " bulls jump fences" as innuendo of abundant out-crossing. It isn't true on the scale it is portrayed. And I will go further and suggest that if there is a case of outcrossing - it was likely done on purpose to begin with. . . or the "accident" was known. The exception "might" be on farms where cattle graze with absolutely no supervision for months and months. The most likely accidental breeding is from another bull on the property of the same breed that manages to outsmart the herd bull.
Let's consider the clues of a bull owned by someone else coming onto a farm and breeding your Dexter!. First they have to get there. Would you say it is not likely a bull is going to jump and clear a fence in the same manner a horse would?
They are going to damage the fence, either by tearing it down entirely or by crushing it down to some degree. There would be evidence of entry. Second.. .. if there is another bull on the farm. . . . there IS going to be a ruckous. No self-respecting bull would ever permit another bull intruder taking over his duties without a fight. . . and bull fights are noisy and raucous affairs. Third, for the breeding to go entirely un-noticed, that bull has to leave again. A bull doesn't come and have his way with a female in heat and then trot off over the damaged fence again. The only way this old wive's tale can be accurate is in the instance of totally neglectful and non-observant cattle owners. It's just innuendo and insinuation in most cases.
There is enough of a genetic pool of modern data that a profile of Dexter cattle DNA markers could be developed, and any deviations would be cause for question, investigation, and some sort of action.
I know of many non-confirmed parentage cases, but there are only a few where I would question it being a non-Dexter and most all of them are resolved. I personally think, for the most part, breeders, especially breeders of large herds have done an excellent job of record keeping through the years. As a matter of fact, unlike ADCA, who has changed the names of parents on animals WITHOUT parentage confirmation when the first sire failed, Legacy will go looking for a sample or for meat to help an owner get an animal confirmed and entered into the registry. There was one bull whose sire didn't confirm. .. . . then suddenlyl he was "assigned" a sire that had not a single other offspring recorded, no genotype on file, and was five years old at the time of the supposed mating. AND. . . . there were not enough relatives to meet the UCD requirement to "build a profile". If you are connected to the inner circle. .. . . . . .
Re: Shadwell. I have never heard this "rumor" about a Zebu before. I would like Cascade to respond and tell me how a man who breeds cattle in the far upper northwest would hear a rumor out of the east and in MY "neck-of-the-woods" and I've never heard it and I have heard lots of rumors because I have talked to former and current breeders across this country. The breeder of this bull was not active in Dexter circles and lived in a small town where I would posit there were more sex-offenders registered than Dexter cattle. It actually gives me pause for concern, because *I* know some of your past and current affiliations Kirk with ADCA insiders and I suspect this rumor leads right down that grapevine of dirty politics and my own belief that NO ONE. . . not a single Dexter owner should trust ADCA with their cattle and especially with their genetic data since they have a track record of abusing that data. I think Hans deserves to be told where and how you heard this rumor!
Kirk, that is EXACTLY what ADCA does - and you are paying them $25 head do to so. Other-than-that. . . . . they have NO real claim to be any better than the other registries. As a matter of fact they are NOT as good as Legacy or PDCA.
Both of those registries provide testing information - Legacy makes the records available for public view, PDCA for members only. Legacy enters test numbers as an aide to current owners and future owners. ADCA is so paranoid and controlling they force owners to have to track these down and aggravate breeders with the requests. Legacy provides ( as all registries of merit do) the tattoo and identification numbers of the animals for public view. and. . . VERY IMPORTANT. .. . . ADCA stopped recording transfer of ownership information about the time there were lots and lots of transfers and resales by ADCA board members. You can find all that information on Legacy. If there is a third-world registry out there. . .. . it is .. . . . ADCA! ! They are certainly not a modern progressive registry on the same tier as Legacy!
Kirk >>I'll even track your non-Dexters and unregisterable Dexters....
Well, it is a good thing "we" are willing to do that. I've spent countless hours working with owners to get Dexters back into registries, in my case through genotyping and parentage confirmation. I've had a number of folks dig meat out of their freezer to do so. In one of those instances I traveled several hours to help an owner register and parentage confirm an animal, seeking out meat from the freezer from the registered Dexter sire. ( Still have that chunk of meat in MY freezer). As it turns out. . ... the owner who sold this person the "Dexter" had actually bred the animal to a. ........... guess what. . . . . . . . . . zebu. LOL. The moment I saw the calf, ( a very strongly brindled dun), I surmised there was a different Daddy than the one from whom I had gathered the chunk of meat. That dun-brindled animal was never registered. However, under the rules of ADCA at the time. . . . . . and without a knowledgable person willing to put in time and effort to discover facts. .. . . . it likely would have been. The breed would have a very "unique" Dexter in the breeding pool. It is easy to spout off rhetoric. . . . . . yep . . .we have the sayers. . . . and then we have doers!
Kirk > > It's easy to sit back and complain and say "I'm too busy to lift a finger to help".
Well, Kirk you stepped in it again. ADCA only wants syncophants. Sheeples. You are a good example, actually. Once upon a time you questioned the status-quo. Still in print out there. I remember a time when you resisted the very thing you now encourage. Resisted. . . . . . . big time!
I was nominated to be a Director. I was willing to take the job. I have years of experience and knowledge and boundless energy, and above all else, I love Dexters, and with one and a half exceptions, I am very fond of their owners. I was also willing to turn over my business to another person. ( Kind of like how Presidents are required to place their interests in trust during their time in office). ADCA. . . . . . . illegally.........ignored my nomination. Here is another example of your choir singing just being an off-tune jingle. . . . . . . Olga Penka urged folks to participate in ADCA on her chat group, and she volunteered to be on committee. You will never find Olga Penka's name on any committee through the years that have past. Olga made a fatal mistake. She criticized ADCA on the chat group for making fun of one of their members at an AGM. Which they did. . . . . because one of the Directors told me about it. . . . . and while Olga was objecting to the public portion that she witnessed. . . . there was more behind the scenes among those elitists.
Marcia Read was VP and resigned. She told me personally that she was just a figurehead and she couldn't even get the President to answer her emails. John O'Meara I believe for much the same reasons. There was another resignation that was misrepresented at the time it took place as well. And then. . . .. we have the Director from the upper Northwest, ( think that was YOUR region Kirk and you keep avoiding my questions to you), who was FORCED to resign because she did not attend the AGM. ( Do we have ANY of those this year who should have tendered resignations by now?). Susan Barron suffers from an incurable physical condition, and from all I heard she worked very hard for Dexter cattle and owners in your region, and in years before she ever took ADCA office, and especially with children. I suppose it was just a coincidence she was elected in a year when the former Director after years and years was no longer privy to insider information. . . . until. .. . . that is. . . . Mrs. Barron was forced to resign and was replaced by same. I won't mention I had heard through the inner circle grapevine an admirer of the former Director made an "official" complaint. There are no surprises anymore.
Do you mean the committee that a former member of . . has been reported as saying "doesn't know what they are doing"?
As to a provision. . .. . . . how can there be unless there is first established a DNA profile of the breed? There is little diversity in the DNA of the Dexter breed. This would not be hard to do, even including some markers that may not be Dexter but there is no way to prove it one way or the other. They are in the breed and should be included. Until there is a breed specific profile, only parentage confirmation can really be trusted. However, DNA has been in use for this purpose in Dexters by Legacy for several years past a decade. ANY animal that is 5 years or older of either sex should HAVE to be genotyped to be registered and parentage confirmed to existing sires which ARE or should be tested. Any animal older than 10 years should be DNA tested and markers confirm to an existing range of Dexter DNA markers. I just saw a 13 year old cow registered in ADCA. .. . . and no genotype required. Where is the rule requiring it? WHAT kind of registry is that lackadaisical Kirk?
OTF > > The emphasis on showing and the inflated prices on some of these animals -- look at the low auction turnout at the recent AGM! The last time I looked at the list and photos of animals to be auctioned, it seemed close to 50 as I recall. Yet the actual sale list on the ADCA website shows just 25 sold, 7 scratched or price not met. And what happened to all the others? Sold in the parking lot? The parking lot??? In my opinion, that's no way to run an auction.
As a percentage of breeders, those who show are very small indeed, and most of them do it to have their children active and involved. I have yet to see numbers at any AGM that were a representative percentage of the owners of Dexter cattle. I agree with you totally that it is a useless waste of time . . . . . . . . especially now since the governing form was changed to an oligarchy and owners have NO SAY in the governance of the association to which they belong, unless and until the oligarchy gives them an opportunity. In the past, that only happens when it is assured the outcome is what ADCA wants it to be. ( The vote on DNA testing was delayed a year when polling showed it would not pass). If owners assign animals for sale at "auction", there should be no reserve. Those who travel to participate and purchase should be able to participate in a non-reserve auction. My local sale barn doesn't let me discriminate as to price. ( Or I would - ). I agree with you about sales in the barn or parking lot. Leaves a sense of something not being on the up-and up.
A rumor itself Kirk! ! ! Name one person and name the animals so I can respond to something other than YOUR myth and misinformation.
Kirk, I do NOT believe this statement and consider it a fabrication of reality. I've been doing DNA testing for Dexter owners longer than anyone in the American Dexter breed and I have NEVER. . . . . . NOT ONCE . . . had anyone say a bull "snuck" in. A few mistakes in herds with multiple bulls, and that is a minute percentage, but NOT A SINGLE PERSON has ever related to me a bull "snuck" in. I sincerely question the associates you choose. Remember this important old maxim Kirk, " lay down with dogs and you get up with fleas".
Parentage-verification, unless it includes both the sire and dam. .. . . . has little merit in a breed with little diversity. There are many parentage confirmed bulls by ADCA that may not be when a dam enters the analysis.
And just think how hard you resisted! And just think . . . . . . it was the registry you like to diss that: Established the first genotype database and DNA testing in America, negotiated with Australia for chondro, negotiated with Dr. Beever for the first non-commercial permission to test for PHA ( and it was a year long negotiation at that), and negotiated with the A2 corporation to CONVINCE them to allow individual owners as well as commercial dairy interests to test for A2, and got permission to bring the testing to UCD, and then added the color testing, and provided ALL of the tests at LESS-THAN-HALF what you were being forced by the registry you support to pay for those tests at their private lab? And let me add that ADCA had a financial interest and gain from testing that was being required at the Cothran lab. Legacy has been very progressive in working for the breed and it's owners.
Teatpuller: >> Would you please clear up something for me? Are you saying that Han's bull Shadwell can't be half zebu because if a different bull had come onto the property there would have been a fight or noise or something, and the owner would have known? And that once the bull was there, he wouldn't have left voluntarily, so the owner would have known? Or if the dam was in heat she wouldn't have gone wandering, and if she did she would have come back on her own before being missed?
Goodness. What is there to clear? I am saying that I am tired of hearing the phrase, " bulls jump fences" as innuendo of abundant out-crossing. It isn't true on the scale it is portrayed. And I will go further and suggest that if there is a case of outcrossing - it was likely done on purpose to begin with. . . or the "accident" was known. The exception "might" be on farms where cattle graze with absolutely no supervision for months and months. The most likely accidental breeding is from another bull on the property of the same breed that manages to outsmart the herd bull.
Let's consider the clues of a bull owned by someone else coming onto a farm and breeding your Dexter!. First they have to get there. Would you say it is not likely a bull is going to jump and clear a fence in the same manner a horse would?
They are going to damage the fence, either by tearing it down entirely or by crushing it down to some degree. There would be evidence of entry. Second.. .. if there is another bull on the farm. . . . there IS going to be a ruckous. No self-respecting bull would ever permit another bull intruder taking over his duties without a fight. . . and bull fights are noisy and raucous affairs. Third, for the breeding to go entirely un-noticed, that bull has to leave again. A bull doesn't come and have his way with a female in heat and then trot off over the damaged fence again. The only way this old wive's tale can be accurate is in the instance of totally neglectful and non-observant cattle owners. It's just innuendo and insinuation in most cases.
There is enough of a genetic pool of modern data that a profile of Dexter cattle DNA markers could be developed, and any deviations would be cause for question, investigation, and some sort of action.
I know of many non-confirmed parentage cases, but there are only a few where I would question it being a non-Dexter and most all of them are resolved. I personally think, for the most part, breeders, especially breeders of large herds have done an excellent job of record keeping through the years. As a matter of fact, unlike ADCA, who has changed the names of parents on animals WITHOUT parentage confirmation when the first sire failed, Legacy will go looking for a sample or for meat to help an owner get an animal confirmed and entered into the registry. There was one bull whose sire didn't confirm. .. . . then suddenlyl he was "assigned" a sire that had not a single other offspring recorded, no genotype on file, and was five years old at the time of the supposed mating. AND. . . . there were not enough relatives to meet the UCD requirement to "build a profile". If you are connected to the inner circle. .. . . . . .
Re: Shadwell. I have never heard this "rumor" about a Zebu before. I would like Cascade to respond and tell me how a man who breeds cattle in the far upper northwest would hear a rumor out of the east and in MY "neck-of-the-woods" and I've never heard it and I have heard lots of rumors because I have talked to former and current breeders across this country. The breeder of this bull was not active in Dexter circles and lived in a small town where I would posit there were more sex-offenders registered than Dexter cattle. It actually gives me pause for concern, because *I* know some of your past and current affiliations Kirk with ADCA insiders and I suspect this rumor leads right down that grapevine of dirty politics and my own belief that NO ONE. . . not a single Dexter owner should trust ADCA with their cattle and especially with their genetic data since they have a track record of abusing that data. I think Hans deserves to be told where and how you heard this rumor!
Kirk >>I can put all Dexters in my Better-Than-Legacy Dexter spreadsheet and I'll only charge $2 per Dexter.
Kirk, that is EXACTLY what ADCA does - and you are paying them $25 head do to so. Other-than-that. . . . . they have NO real claim to be any better than the other registries. As a matter of fact they are NOT as good as Legacy or PDCA.
Both of those registries provide testing information - Legacy makes the records available for public view, PDCA for members only. Legacy enters test numbers as an aide to current owners and future owners. ADCA is so paranoid and controlling they force owners to have to track these down and aggravate breeders with the requests. Legacy provides ( as all registries of merit do) the tattoo and identification numbers of the animals for public view. and. . . VERY IMPORTANT. .. . . ADCA stopped recording transfer of ownership information about the time there were lots and lots of transfers and resales by ADCA board members. You can find all that information on Legacy. If there is a third-world registry out there. . .. . it is .. . . . ADCA! ! They are certainly not a modern progressive registry on the same tier as Legacy!
Kirk >>I'll even track your non-Dexters and unregisterable Dexters....
Well, it is a good thing "we" are willing to do that. I've spent countless hours working with owners to get Dexters back into registries, in my case through genotyping and parentage confirmation. I've had a number of folks dig meat out of their freezer to do so. In one of those instances I traveled several hours to help an owner register and parentage confirm an animal, seeking out meat from the freezer from the registered Dexter sire. ( Still have that chunk of meat in MY freezer). As it turns out. . ... the owner who sold this person the "Dexter" had actually bred the animal to a. ........... guess what. . . . . . . . . . zebu. LOL. The moment I saw the calf, ( a very strongly brindled dun), I surmised there was a different Daddy than the one from whom I had gathered the chunk of meat. That dun-brindled animal was never registered. However, under the rules of ADCA at the time. . . . . . and without a knowledgable person willing to put in time and effort to discover facts. .. . . . it likely would have been. The breed would have a very "unique" Dexter in the breeding pool. It is easy to spout off rhetoric. . . . . . yep . . .we have the sayers. . . . and then we have doers!
Kirk > > It's easy to sit back and complain and say "I'm too busy to lift a finger to help".
Well, Kirk you stepped in it again. ADCA only wants syncophants. Sheeples. You are a good example, actually. Once upon a time you questioned the status-quo. Still in print out there. I remember a time when you resisted the very thing you now encourage. Resisted. . . . . . . big time!
I was nominated to be a Director. I was willing to take the job. I have years of experience and knowledge and boundless energy, and above all else, I love Dexters, and with one and a half exceptions, I am very fond of their owners. I was also willing to turn over my business to another person. ( Kind of like how Presidents are required to place their interests in trust during their time in office). ADCA. . . . . . . illegally.........ignored my nomination. Here is another example of your choir singing just being an off-tune jingle. . . . . . . Olga Penka urged folks to participate in ADCA on her chat group, and she volunteered to be on committee. You will never find Olga Penka's name on any committee through the years that have past. Olga made a fatal mistake. She criticized ADCA on the chat group for making fun of one of their members at an AGM. Which they did. . . . . because one of the Directors told me about it. . . . . and while Olga was objecting to the public portion that she witnessed. . . . there was more behind the scenes among those elitists.
Marcia Read was VP and resigned. She told me personally that she was just a figurehead and she couldn't even get the President to answer her emails. John O'Meara I believe for much the same reasons. There was another resignation that was misrepresented at the time it took place as well. And then. . . .. we have the Director from the upper Northwest, ( think that was YOUR region Kirk and you keep avoiding my questions to you), who was FORCED to resign because she did not attend the AGM. ( Do we have ANY of those this year who should have tendered resignations by now?). Susan Barron suffers from an incurable physical condition, and from all I heard she worked very hard for Dexter cattle and owners in your region, and in years before she ever took ADCA office, and especially with children. I suppose it was just a coincidence she was elected in a year when the former Director after years and years was no longer privy to insider information. . . . until. .. . . that is. . . . Mrs. Barron was forced to resign and was replaced by same. I won't mention I had heard through the inner circle grapevine an admirer of the former Director made an "official" complaint. There are no surprises anymore.
Teatpuller: >> Isn't there a provision that as long as DNA supports the pedigree older animals can be registered? I'd guess you'd have to go through the Pedigree Comm.
Do you mean the committee that a former member of . . has been reported as saying "doesn't know what they are doing"?
As to a provision. . .. . . . how can there be unless there is first established a DNA profile of the breed? There is little diversity in the DNA of the Dexter breed. This would not be hard to do, even including some markers that may not be Dexter but there is no way to prove it one way or the other. They are in the breed and should be included. Until there is a breed specific profile, only parentage confirmation can really be trusted. However, DNA has been in use for this purpose in Dexters by Legacy for several years past a decade. ANY animal that is 5 years or older of either sex should HAVE to be genotyped to be registered and parentage confirmed to existing sires which ARE or should be tested. Any animal older than 10 years should be DNA tested and markers confirm to an existing range of Dexter DNA markers. I just saw a 13 year old cow registered in ADCA. .. . . and no genotype required. Where is the rule requiring it? WHAT kind of registry is that lackadaisical Kirk?
OTF > > The emphasis on showing and the inflated prices on some of these animals -- look at the low auction turnout at the recent AGM! The last time I looked at the list and photos of animals to be auctioned, it seemed close to 50 as I recall. Yet the actual sale list on the ADCA website shows just 25 sold, 7 scratched or price not met. And what happened to all the others? Sold in the parking lot? The parking lot??? In my opinion, that's no way to run an auction.
As a percentage of breeders, those who show are very small indeed, and most of them do it to have their children active and involved. I have yet to see numbers at any AGM that were a representative percentage of the owners of Dexter cattle. I agree with you totally that it is a useless waste of time . . . . . . . . especially now since the governing form was changed to an oligarchy and owners have NO SAY in the governance of the association to which they belong, unless and until the oligarchy gives them an opportunity. In the past, that only happens when it is assured the outcome is what ADCA wants it to be. ( The vote on DNA testing was delayed a year when polling showed it would not pass). If owners assign animals for sale at "auction", there should be no reserve. Those who travel to participate and purchase should be able to participate in a non-reserve auction. My local sale barn doesn't let me discriminate as to price. ( Or I would - ). I agree with you about sales in the barn or parking lot. Leaves a sense of something not being on the up-and up.
Kirk >> But lots of myths and rumors go around about animals having parentage errors. In fact, most people on this board, have at times spread myths and misinformation about parentage of certain animals.
Kirk >> Parentage-verification is meant to catch most honest errors and sneaker bulls.
I've seen lots of reports where excellent cattle managers have reported that parentage-verification helped them discover that nearby bulls snuck into their cows, bred a cow or two, and then snuck back out.
I've seen lots of reports where excellent cattle managers have reported that parentage-verification helped them discover that nearby bulls snuck into their cows, bred a cow or two, and then snuck back out.
Kirk, I do NOT believe this statement and consider it a fabrication of reality. I've been doing DNA testing for Dexter owners longer than anyone in the American Dexter breed and I have NEVER. . . . . . NOT ONCE . . . had anyone say a bull "snuck" in. A few mistakes in herds with multiple bulls, and that is a minute percentage, but NOT A SINGLE PERSON has ever related to me a bull "snuck" in. I sincerely question the associates you choose. Remember this important old maxim Kirk, " lay down with dogs and you get up with fleas".
Parentage-verification, unless it includes both the sire and dam. .. . . . has little merit in a breed with little diversity. There are many parentage confirmed bulls by ADCA that may not be when a dam enters the analysis.
Kirk > > > >By the way, parentage verification saves me tons of money. If both verified parents are homozygous-polled, and homozygous A2, and non-chondro, and non-dun, and non-pha, then I don't have to test for any of those things.
And just think how hard you resisted! And just think . . . . . . it was the registry you like to diss that: Established the first genotype database and DNA testing in America, negotiated with Australia for chondro, negotiated with Dr. Beever for the first non-commercial permission to test for PHA ( and it was a year long negotiation at that), and negotiated with the A2 corporation to CONVINCE them to allow individual owners as well as commercial dairy interests to test for A2, and got permission to bring the testing to UCD, and then added the color testing, and provided ALL of the tests at LESS-THAN-HALF what you were being forced by the registry you support to pay for those tests at their private lab? And let me add that ADCA had a financial interest and gain from testing that was being required at the Cothran lab. Legacy has been very progressive in working for the breed and it's owners.