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Post by jamshundred on Aug 5, 2017 12:42:37 GMT
Taken from the book: Symposium
Question during discussion from UK Dexter owner:
I really wanted to capitalize and make bold the two words, "very different" and the last seven words, " but there would be no polled animals". But I wanted it to be exactly as written.
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Post by cascade on Aug 6, 2017 13:40:12 GMT
My guess is that the person who made the comment dehorned their Dexters with a red hot iron as the calf screamed in agony, as most so-called "Traditionalists" do. If interfering with horn growth is traditional, then the polled gene can be traditional, as it simply interferes with horn growth.
The traditional standard says red or black ONLY, so dun is no more traditional than hornless.
Are there any purebred traditional herds, where 100% of Dexters and 100% of the calves born meet the original breed standard published in 1900? (100% of calves born with shorter legs, 100% of males, if left intact, would not exceed 900 pounds), 100% with horns ?
By the way, every calf has about 30-60 mutations (genes that broke in the DNA copy process). The polled gene, is a broken horn-regulator gene. So sooner or later, even a population of the purest of pure horned Dexters will have a polled calf.
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Post by bruff64 on Aug 6, 2017 21:17:59 GMT
zzzzzzzzzzzzz,.....zzzzzzzzzzzz,...........zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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Post by jamshundred on Aug 7, 2017 1:01:03 GMT
No. There would be no polled calf in Dexters. ALL circumstantial evidence available leads away from your fairy tale.
the Chillingham herd is documented behind estate walls since the 1600's and there are circumstances which lead researchers to believe that closed herd has been there since the 1300's.
There is NO record of a polled mutation, NEVER, EVER, EVER!!
Jim Lents in Oklahoma manages his family's HORNED Hereford herd. The herd was established in the late 1800's with imported cattle. And has been a closed line red herd since. There has NEVER been anything but horned calves born from that herd.
You spout speculative hypothetical bullsheet. I tell it like it is.
PS.
interesting research on Jim Lents herd is on the internet for those who worry about closed herds and/or linebreeding.
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Post by cascade on Aug 7, 2017 15:19:14 GMT
Mutations aren't common enough that every farmer is going to notice one, but they absolutely are proven to occur from time to time, here and there. Here's a proven polled mutation within a traditionally horned breed. Fleckvieh cattle are a red with a white spotting pattern that is their trademark. The color and pattern aren't dominant, so an outcross with another breed would be obvious. "In 1992 we introduced the polled gene from mutation polled Full Fleckvieh cattle." smfleckvieh.com |
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Post by teatpuller11 on Aug 7, 2017 15:37:58 GMT
I once talked with an old Hereford breeder. He was convinced the polled gene was recessive because he had polled calves from his horned Herefords (all he raised), not often, but over the years he'd had at least eight. All the science in the world wouldn't get him to change his mind about it being recessive because how else would he be getting polled from horned cattle. I guess he had a line that had a weak gene that mutated easily? Anyone hear of anything like this?
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Post by cascade on Aug 7, 2017 16:11:15 GMT
In all plants and animals, the genes are copied over and over billions of times per day. Sorta like hand-copying a set of encyclopedias over and over and over. Many, many copying errors occur, but in the case of genetics, there is an error catching process, to catch and fix most all those errors. But some dna "spellings" can be tricky, just like some words are harder to spell than others. These tricky spellings in some genes, slip through the error checking process frequently, causing the same mutation to occur more regularly over and over. These are called mutational hot spots. www.scientificamerican.com/article/founder-mutations-2006-06/ |
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Post by jamshundred on Aug 7, 2017 18:35:35 GMT
I have seen enough "science" in my time to take it all with a grain of salt. Pluto is an excellent example. And after nearly eighty years of denying it. . . . . . . there is now acknowledgement of life elsewhere than earth?
Too many scientists are now being outed for making up data. There was a scientist in WV who was discovered manufacturing evidence in criminal cases to help prosecutors get convictions. There is so much pressure for scientists to publish data to receive grants. . . . .
Science is theoretical. Jim Lents herd is factual. So is Chillingham. AND.. . . . . . . I have to keep reminding you that unless parentage is confirmed in two full generations for polled it is not trustworthy for mutation.
Speaking of Jim Lents, he will tell you EXACTLY how the supposed mutation was not.
I am willing to bet you. . .. that now. . . . more and more breeds are requiring DNA typing. . . . . "polled mutations" are on the way out.
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Post by cascade on Aug 7, 2017 20:19:05 GMT
It's amusing how science deniers want to deny science but they happily take vacations via airplanes, and use electricity, and computers.... All things that science has given us.
Science deniers usually only deny the science that proves them wrong, and accept the science that proves them right.
By the way, Pluto isn't an example of anything at all. Pluto is a big chunk of material that goes around the sun. There are millions of objects that go around the sun. How we classify each of those objects is up for debate. Is our moon a planet? is it a planetoid? Is Pluto a planet or a planetoid? It's just a classification that's debatable.
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Post by jamshundred on Aug 7, 2017 22:15:57 GMT
It is bad enough that there are scientists who make mistakes - but there are far too many who have been caught doing so on purpose.
Do . . . . NOT .. . . . . try to convince me there are no charlatans in science.
Or mistakes. Want to talk about the science of dun in Dexters? Let's date it. . . . . when did the breed cease the practice of proclaiming dun was only found in Dexter cattle?
When does curiosity and connected discovery by an individual transcend researcher to scientist? Is everyone who looks through a telescope and sees a new star in the sky a curious observer, a researcher, or a scientist?
Lets just go back to basics. Polled mutation in Dexters is simply fraud. There is none. And there is no ninth planet called Pluto.
BUT . .. . . . . guess what. . . . there is a connection between Pluto and Dexter cattle. Pluto is a DWARF planet.
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Post by bruff64 on Aug 8, 2017 1:51:39 GMT
My guess is that the person who made the comment dehorned their Dexters with a red hot iron as the calf screamed in agony, as most so-called "Traditionalists" do. If interfering with horn growth is traditional, then the polled gene can be traditional, as it simply interferes with horn growth. The traditional standard says red or black ONLY, so dun is no more traditional than hornless. Are there any purebred traditional herds, where 100% of Dexters and 100% of the calves born meet the original breed standard published in 1900? (100% of calves born with shorter legs, 100% of males, if left intact, would not exceed 900 pounds), 100% with horns ? By the way, every calf has about 30-60 mutations (genes that broke in the DNA copy process). The polled gene, is a broken horn-regulator gene. So sooner or later, even a population of the purest of pure horned Dexters will have a polled calf. So by your reasoning if there was a mutation in a Dexter that formed a uni-horn then that Dexter would be acceptable for purebred registered status? No horns, one horn, three horns, 2 horns..........The uni-horn gene, is a broken horn-regulator gene (regulates for one instead of none or two). So sooner or later, even a population of the purest of pure horned Dexters will have a uni-horned calf. Personally I prefer the quadra-horn mutation and as long as my quadra-horned mutation Dexter replicates 100% of her calves with shorter legs, 100% of males, if left intact, not exceed 900 pounds, then there is no reason that she cannot be a purebred Dexter. I understand your reasoning now, you are right, we should embrace these mutations as it is good (and marketable) for the breed. |
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Post by cascade on Aug 8, 2017 18:24:50 GMT
Bruff, I actually agree with you. If you're interested in preserving Traditional Dexters exactly as described in the 1900 Breed Standard, then you would shun all non-traditional-standard features regardless of the source of that feature.
That means no bulls over 900 pounds, no brown colors, no longer legs, no dairy frames (only deep, thick beefy quarters allowed), no dehorning, no castration, no shots, etc.
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Post by teatpuller11 on Aug 8, 2017 22:50:21 GMT
Judy: is there now evidence that the gene that makes Dexters dun is found in other cattle, with the same effect? Or are you talking about Dexter dun being found in other species? |
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Post by cascade on Aug 9, 2017 1:05:53 GMT
The TYRP1 gene is an enzyme required to make black pigment look black instead of fading to brown.
Dun = Broken TYRP1 gene
All mammals and Birds have TYRP1 genes.
All genes get miscopied from time to time
Dun (Broken TYRP1 gene) occurs in all sorts of animals. When it occurs in Black Angus, they cull it. When it occurs in Red Angus or Herefords it doesn't exhibit (it only exhibits in otherwise black animals).
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Post by teatpuller11 on Aug 9, 2017 22:47:09 GMT
Cascade, do you know for sure that Angus have had duns or are you assuming a broken gene is probable? I know they used to kill off any reds.
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Post by cascade on Aug 10, 2017 18:33:23 GMT
Cascade, do you know for sure that Angus have had duns or are you assuming a broken gene is probable? I know they used to kill off any reds. Nobody has ever tested and found the broken TYRP1 gene in Angus, but nobody has ever really searched for it. It's a near mathematical certainty that it has popped up many times in a numerous breed like Angus... Likely one in 10,000 or one in 20,000 calves would be born with the broken gene (but they would still be black because the gene is recessive). |
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Post by lakeportfarms on Aug 11, 2017 12:08:02 GMT
So by your reasoning if there was a mutation in a Dexter that formed a uni-horn then that Dexter would be acceptable for purebred registered status? No horns, one horn, three horns, 2 horns..........The uni-horn gene, is a broken horn-regulator gene (regulates for one instead of none or two). So sooner or later, even a population of the purest of pure horned Dexters will have a uni-horned calf. Personally I prefer the quadra-horn mutation and as long as my quadra-horned mutation Dexter replicates 100% of her calves with shorter legs, 100% of males, if left intact, not exceed 900 pounds, then there is no reason that she cannot be a purebred Dexter. I understand your reasoning now, you are right, we should embrace these mutations as it is good (and marketable) for the breed. Too late Larry, this uni-horn Dexter cow is registered    |
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Post by jamshundred on Aug 13, 2017 2:59:01 GMT
Teatpuller- primarily thinking of species and though I strongly feel that red dun was the original red-ish dominant non-black color in the breed and that it was not an anomaly, to prove it early postmortem samples would need to be researched. I am checking a bit though with some color researchers and if I get something solid will share.
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