How the word "Dexter" came to mean short and thick build

[cascade]

Robert Bakewell (23 May 1725 – 1 October 1795) was a British agriculturalist, now recognized as one of the most important figures in the British Agricultural Revolution. In addition to work in agronomy, Bakewell is particularly notable as the first to implement systematic selective breeding of livestock. His advancements not only led to specific improvements in sheep, cattle and horses, but contributed to general knowledge of artificial selection.

Bakewell understood that animals with short legs and thick builds are more efficient meat producers, and put on fat more easily.  Bakewell lived in the Dishley area of Leicester, England. One of the short, thick breeds that Bakewell developed, is the Dishley, Leicester Sheep Breed, known for its very short legs and round form.


A book on sheep compiled in the 1830's,  tells a detail story of a group of sheep breeders in Tipperary, Ireland, led by a man named Dexter, bred short and thick Dishley sheep.   This is how the name "Dexter" became associated with short, thick livestock.

Dexter was raising sheep, not cattle, but his name came to be used to describe any short and thick animal of any sort.

[cascade]

Bakewell and his followers found that selecting short legged sheep with compact thick builds provided them with very efficient meat production.

The Dishley Leicester Sheep breed was a compact short-legged breed.  While the sheep were "dwarf" in proportions, their size and proportions were due to simply selecting for naturally short and thick genetics,. They would have culled any with bone diseases like Chondrodysplasia.  They certainly wouldn't have tolerated having animals that couldn't breed-true for their desired features.   True breeds breed true.

[jamshundred]

What a stretch!  I already posted that Bakewell was the developer of Dishley sheep, prior to your breeder who bought a Dexter Ram to cross with and make a better sheep?   Wouldn't the natural flow then be that Dexters were called Bakewells?   This nonsense is about sheep, and not,very clear at that, other than the fact that the most likely valid tradition presented is that of Professor Low who is the first to ever mention A man named Dexter who developed the Dexter breed on behalf of the Irish Lord who,employed him.......and not once in this contemporary time period did anyone say Dexter meant "small" nor do the dictionary definitions.

You blow so much smoke one is in danger of lung cancer from reading your made-up hit pieces intended to re-define Dexters to legitimize the illegitimate so you do not have to deal with the reality of being an ADCA victim.

[teatpuller11]

Judy, are you saying there were TWO Mr. Dexters? Both the agent of the same person?

[cascade]

Breeds of animals were often named after the place where they were developed... (Hereford cattle from Herefordshire, Dishley Leicester sheep from Dishley,
Leicester).

Strains of animals, within a breed often have the name of the breeder or the herd name.

Dexter was the breeder of the short-legged and round-bodied strain of Dishley Leicester sheep in Ireland. Dexter's name was used to describe his compact strain of short-legged and round-bodied Dishley sheep.

This was written about in the 1830's and was the FIRST published use of the name "Dexter" to describe a short-legged, compact breed of livestock.

The story of the man named Dexter who developed the Dexter strain of short-legged Dishley sheep is full of logical breeder details that make sense. On the other hand, the mythical copycat Mr. Dexter story of the cattle myth, has zero details, and was published AFTER the Dexter sheep story had already been published.

[bruff64]

With the myth of the term "dexter" as a Gaelic word dispelled you now are reaching for any connection you can find. More "fake" news.

[bruff64]

Main definitions of dexter in English: dexter1dexter2



dexter1
ADJECTIVE

Heraldry
archaic
attributive On or towards the right-hand side (in a coat of arms, from the bearer's point of view, i.e. the left as it is depicted).
The opposite of sinister
Example sentencesSynonyms
Origin
Mid 16th century: from Latin, ‘on the right’.
Pronunciation
dexter/ˈdɛkstə/
Main definitions of dexter in English: dexter1dexter2



dexter2
NOUN

An animal of a small, hardy breed of Irish cattle.
Example sentences
Origin
Late 19th century: said to have been named after the breeder.

[bruff64]

As you can see, no known connection to Celtic language, simply a "said to have been" connection to an individual. No reference anywhere that I can find that the word dexter means anything but "right handed" in English. Simply does not exist in Gaelic translation.

[cascade]

Strain/Frame-type names in livestock breeder communities don't usually make it into the dictionary.

For example, if I said a cow was a "Woodmagic" type... Most of us here would understand that, but if you look it up in the dictionary, you won't find "Woodmagic" having any meaning related to livestock.

There are countless examples of people using term "Dexter" to describe shorter livestock.

Someone on another board visited Ireland recently and visited a herd of non-dexter cattle. The Irish breeder of those non-dexters, used the term "Dexter" to describe an exceptionally small animal in their non-dexter herd.

[jamshundred]

WHAT is a "Woodmagic" type?    

[bruff64]

There are a lot of someone's somewhere that could have said something. How is that relevant to what your proposing as fact. I have been to Ireland many times and I have not found any of what you propose as fact. I will be there in September and will surely do a survey. Two years ago at Muckross Farm I did see a very small Kerry, half the size of its herd mates the same age. I took pictures of her. I will find them and post them here. The farm manager told me that they occasionally have one of these smaller Kerrys born. They ship them to slaughter as the do not meet the breed specifications. This very "fact" leads me to believe that the hypothesis that Devi crosses are the origin of the dexter are unfounded. That this size Kerry still occurs in the national purebred herd lends better evidence to the probability that the dexter was in fact a product of Kerry origin, or at least native cattle populations.

[cascade]

Dexterfarm knows what the Woodmagic type is

Apr 14, 2016 15:08:21 GMT @dexterfarm said:

The heifer bull clearly takes after the Colorado side while the bull bull takes after the Woodmagic side.  

[cascade]

Aug 18, 2017 17:08:36 GMT bruff64 said:

Two years ago at Muckross Farm I did see a very small Kerry, half the size of its herd mates the same age. I took pictures of her. I will find them and post them here. The farm manager told me that they occasionally have one of these smaller Kerrys born. They ship them to slaughter as the do not meet the breed specifications. This very "fact" leads me to believe that the hypothesis that Devi crosses are the origin of the dexter are unfounded. That this size Kerry still occurs in the national purebred herd lends better evidence to the probability that the dexter was in fact a product of Kerry origin, or at least native cattle populations.

Dexter's are definitely a product of Kerry origin (in part), and like all breeds, Kerry are going to have some smaller individuals occasionally born.

In the earlier 1800's the term "Dexter" was applied to shorter sheep and shorter cattle. In the very early 1800's the cattle in the Kerry area were still predominantly native Kerry cattle, but as the 1800's progressed, more and more cattle of other breeds, especially Devon and Short-horn, were imported into the area and often crossed with the Kerry, but there were still many relatively pure Kerry.

In the early to mid 1800's, there was no such thing as a separate "Dexter Breed" of cattle. "Dexter" was just a beef frame type... Short Legs, beefy body.

But in the late 1800's, some enterprising folks decided to create a separate, isolated breed based on that short, beefy frame type. In doing so, they allowed ANY cattle of ANY breed, as long as they had shorter legs and beefy builds and didn't exceed 900 pounds. This opened the door to lots of compact individuals from the Devon breed, and Short-horn breed and others.

That's why DNA tests of Dexters are quite different from DNA tests of Kerry cattle. Dexter's aren't miniature Kerry cattle. Dexters are a long ago conglomeration of Kerry, Devon, Short-horn, Irish Moiled, and other breeds, and selected for shorter individuals.

[jamshundred]

It is really quite amusing to me that you have such difficulty with the truth when it comes to Saltaire Platinum, yet you have traveled far and wide and past and present in your attempts to re-define the Dexter breed entirely in order to legitimize your illegitimates.    You are anything but a "caretaker" of this breed.  


Here's Mr. Dexter, who was documented by an esteemed Professor before the mid 1800's, so *I* am fairly confident from his wide travels and studies he would never have put in print something that was a myth.   The Viscount of Hawardan DID exist, and owned vast acreage in Ireland.

This is an excerpt of the history of Dexter cattle from Killenure castle:

The existence of Dexters was first reported in Ireland in 1776. Their written history prior to then is non-existent. However it is clear from documents since that time that Dexters are an integral part of the Kerry cattle breed which is native to Ireland, so much so, that a mating of 2 Dexters can produce a Kerry and vice versa.





Dexter Cattle, first documented in the 1830’s by David Low, Professor of Agriculture at Edinburgh University. Professor Low studied the natural history of farmed animals of Britain and Ireland, culminating in 1842 with the landmark publication “On the Domesticated Animals of the British Islands”. This document records 20 distinct breeds of cattle, many of which are no longer found in today’s intensive farming industry. One native Irish breed he refers to is the Dexter, named after a Mr Dexter who managed a 2,400 acre estate in County Tipperary for Lord Hawarden.





In 1730 the Maude family built Dundrum House County Tipperary with 2400 acres. Dundrum was the seat of the Viscounts Hawarden in county (The family seat was Dundrum House, near Cashel) Tipperary in the 18th and 19th centuries. The Ordnance Survey Name Books mention that the demesne was well-planted in 1840. Dundrum was held in fee by Viscount Hawarden and valued at £85 at the time of Griffith’s Valuation. In 1844 the house was described as a capacious structure standing in the centre of one of the most expensive wooded parks in the country.





A farm manager, Mr Dexter, came to Dundrum in 1750 (Note Christopher Dexter in the family tree) + extract from above (Christopher DEXTER of Sysonby, Leicestershire, grazier. He produced a curious breed of cattle by selection from the best of the hardy mountain cattle in the area to produce the Dexter breed, the smallest native breed of cattle in the British Isles and Ireland. Dexter are a hardy, dual-purpose cattle, producing excellent beef and milk, an ideal suckler cow for conservation grazing.

[lakeportfarms]

There's no point in arguing with Kirk. He was there and knows first hand. He'll be telling this story for centuries to come to all the new Dexter breeders out there.

[cascade]

The two myths of Dexter cattle are in direct conflict with each other.

One myth says a fabled Mr. Dexter worked diligently to produce the Dexter breed via selection of short cattle.

The other myth says that two Kerry cattle can have Dexter babies, and two Dexter cattle can have Kerry babies. If that's true, then those Dexters weren't a true breed because true breeds breed true. Further, the fabled Mr. Dexter wouldn't have needed to do any selecting at all.











PS. I'm simply sharing a book written in the 1830's... I wasn't there, but the author was.

[jamshundred]

You see.  I keep telling you that your lack of experience is showing.  What the author was attempting to relate is that two Dexters can make a "Kerry", meaning the short cattle can produce a long leg.   Back in the beginning when the breeds were formed and herd books issued, the Kerry and Dexters were placed in seperate herd books.    The Kerry being the long legged animals, and of course Dexters being dwarf.   However, when you breed a dwarf Dexter to a dwarf Dexter, you have a 25% chance of having a long leg animal which most likely would have been called a Kerry in that time period.     So, where's the myth?

Next.   If all short and squat livestock were called Dexters, then where is the Dexter sheep breed, or the Dexter horse breed, or the Dexter pig breed, or the Dexter goat breed?   For the observation to work, you need more than just a breed of cattle called Dexters.

On the other hand, the EARLIEST description of the Dexter breed, refers to the breed being developed by Mr. Dexter of the Viscount Hawardan's estate.  Research showed that to be true, that there was such a person who was an agent of Viscount Hawardan.    Not only that, but the person who related this information was a Professor, we can assume of some esteem, who diligently researched cattle across Ireland, described and defined them.

So which is more plausible.   The one which can be substantiated, or the supposition?

Why must you go on and on and on trying to make something of nothing?  

[cascade]

Aug 21, 2017 0:59:55 GMT jamshundred said:

 If all short and squat livestock were called Dexters, then where is the Dexter sheep breed  

I believe this is the earliest printed line of text referring to any short and round Dexter animal of any sort. This appears in Youatt's Sheep Book with a preface dated 1837, and a print year of 1840:

"At the present day, when a farmer wishes to improve his flock, he sends into Tipperary for a Dexter Ram."

[bruff64]

I would interpret that to mean a name of a flock, not a reference to phenotype. Certainly taking a lot of liberty with that assumption. The depth to which this fabrication is descending is amazing.

[jamshundred]

EXACTLY! Mr. Bruffy.       By the way. . . . did you get mail? 

Here's the thing, Kirk.   That line you are placing your hopes on was in 1837.  Professor Low was researching cattle, and other livestock, prior to that time period as well and I think had published work.   I cannot recall at the moment the first edition date of his work on the cattle but it was close to that time period if not before.   Had there been any merit to your supposition, why would Professor Low not have mentioned it, instead of, or along with, the information on Mr. Dexter?   ( And a reminder that ALL folks were referred to by their surnames.  Even in the generation when I grew up, associates, even friends, were respectfully only referred to by surname.  Even to this day, you will always see me say, "Mrs. Rutherford".  Never, would I call her by her first name.  Disrespectful!  The rules of conduct were even stricter in the 1800's, so the fact that the agent of Lord Hawardan was referred to only as "Mr". goes with the proper conduct of the time.  Lord Hawardan, for instance was not Mr. Hawardan.  That was his title.)

It seems to me, with the identification of Mr. Dexter and confirmation of his position with Lord Hawardan, the Dexter history question has been fully and completely resolved.

[bruff64]

I did Receive the disc, thank you so much. There were some Kerry pictures I had not seen before.

[cascade]

Professor Low himself said that the country people in the Kerry area applied the word "Dexter" to any individual animal with short legs and a round form, regardless of the breed.

"When any individual of a Kerry drove appears remarkably round and short-legged, it is common for the country people to call it a Dexter”.

Professor Low himself doubted the mythical Mr. Dexter of the cattle story when he said:

"However the Dexter breed has been formed, it still retains its name, and the roundness and depth of carcase which distinguished it"

Aurthur Young toured Ireland and wrote about Ireland's livestock (published in 1780),where he mentions Dexter sheep but never said a word about Dexter cattle:

"Mr. Dexter had a ram and a great number of ewes sent to him, the breed much improving"

"Some persons, Mr. Dexter chiefly, have brought English rams, which they let out at seventeen guineas a season"

Aurthur Young in 1780 said nothing about Dexter cattle, but he did say this about cattle in the area:

"There have been many English bulls introduced for improving the cattle of the country at a considerable expense"

Professor Wilson in 1908 had this to say about Dexter myths in his Royal Dublin Society paper on Dexter Cattle:

"Unfortunately, these glimpses leave us in doubt about about Dexter's position as a breeder of cattle; but had he been noted as such, and especially as a breeder of animals so remarkable as the Dexter, it would have hardly escaped the notice of an observer and inquirer like Aurthur Young"

[teatpuller11]

Judy, part of your quote from Killenure says, "Dexters are an integral part of the Kerry cattle breed which is native to Ireland, so much so, that a mating of 2 Dexters can produce a Kerry and vice versa."

If you see their history as accurate, then THERE MUST HAVE BEEN VERY SMALL KERRIES WITHOUT CHONDRO for the visa versa to be true.  Is it possible for both you and Cascade to be right?  Chondro AND smaller than normal Kerry genes.  I understand that Kerries were considered a small breed anyway, compared to the other mainstream breeds around at the time.

[jamshundred]

Teatpuller,

Who is to say the Kerry breed didn't evolve from Dexters?   Those of us who breed Dwarf to Dwarf are aware that of the 4 calf options based on parentage, one of them is a non-dwarf very "Kerry type" calf.   I think I would describe the four calf options as:

Homozagous dwarf - deceased
"Kerry-type"
Proportionate dwarf
Non-proportionate dwarf


It seems a very likely deduction that when the first herdbooks were created. . . all the long-leg "Kerry-type" or Kerry cattle went into the Kerry section, ( and perhaps some of the taller proportionate dwarf Dexter cattle) and all the non-proportionate, some proportionate,  and perhaps even some small Kerry were included in the Dexter sections.

Over the course of time, the pedigree record keeping should have slowly but surely settled the identities of the two breeds.

I do NOT think the Dexter breed received it's name because of it's size.   I believe the information recorded very contemporaneous in time by Professor Low to be the accurate information.   The works of Young which Kirk references were on British cattle. 

Kirk argues for the sake of argument.  If some of the authors more distant in time, yet even closer to the period ( Wallace 1885 ) didn't know much to relate,  how is Kirk in 2017 going to know the answers? 
There is a record in the third decade of the 17th century regarding Dexters.   Written down, on paper.   Everything else is assumption and speculation based on what someone wishes history to be. . . not what it was.

[cascade]

Aurthur Young toured Ireland extensively in 1776-1779 and wrote about Irish livestock in his Ireland Tour book in 1780.

He detailed short and round Dexter sheep, but never said anything about Dexter cattle.

[teatpuller11]

Judy, I find your idea of four types very interesting. All I've heard about are three types.  Are you aware of any identifiable DNA differences between the proportionate and not proportionate types that would allow you to support your theory?  And what would those differences be?   Just looks, or something concrete you can point to?

[cascade]

The "Chondrodysplasia gene" is really a broken ACAN gene which results in aggrecan deficiency. Aggrecan protein serves two purposes... 1. It's a major component of cartilage, providing for supreme cushioning of joints, preventing wear on bones. 2. Aggrecan serves a role in the Extra-Cellular-Matrix which helps build normal bones of normal length.

With a broken ACAN gene (Chondrodysplasia), the animal's cartilage and bones are artificially shrunken, due to aggrecan deficiency.

One could group non-chondro Dexters into two groups... 1. Those with naturally shorter legs, 2. Those with naturally longer legs.

If you infected these animals with a broken ACAN gene, those already with naturally shorter legs, would have their already shorter bones shrunken even more by the aggrecan deficiency, and would be very dwarfish. The leggy group with extra long legs would have their bones shrunken by Chondrodysplasia so that they just look proportional, instead of so tall and leggy.

[lonecowhand]

Oh God , Not Again...

[teatpuller11]

Hi lonecowhand. How would you describe it, then? And what do you think causes the difference?

[lonecowhand]

How many times does it have to be described? I'm sure I have seen this exact same verbiage several dozen times in the last couple of years from this source , normally accompanied by a HUGE photo of a dead fetus.

I don't miss that, don't misconstrue.

Really? Don't you have it memorized by now?