Butchering cows

[jamshundred]

I have never butchered a cow before.   I have an A2 cow I sold.  The purchaser wanted to train her to milk.  It did not work out.  She refuses to be milked.  For several reasons I decided I would pick her up and take her for butchering, so tried to find a butcher with an opening, which is impossible here.  ( First date I could get at any butcher near here and even in nearby PA was in January).   As I was looking up butchers further away to call, it suddenly occurred to me that I cannot butcher her!  She is pregnant.  At least 5 months or so.  I assumed butchers would not butcher a pregnant cow?  Wrong! ! !   Curious now that I thought of it, I googled.  It was a "nightmare" google.  The first sight I looked at was an "activist" sight, and the opening photo was pretty graphic, not to mention the descriptions of the death of the calves.  These links are GRAPHIC!

www.all-creatures.org/articles/ar-pregnancy.html





I had never given this ANY thought before I am embarrassed to admit because I've never butchered cows.  Now I cannot stop thinking about it.  

[Deleted]

It is hard to get into a processor without a weight time. I make my appointments 2 to 6 months in advance. If you have a processor you use regularly they will try to get you in for the one off emergency situations. As far as butchering them pregnant. Yes you can. I doubt any beef people are doing this intentionally the calf is worth to much. The dairy world is a whole different deal that calves have no monetary value. 

[otf]

Judy, I share your horror at this. Things like this haunt me for days and weeks. The only female we ever butchered was last year, a heifer (PHA+), and I was very reluctant. She was not pregnant. Because I haven't been able to sell OTF's Sprint, I might be facing this with her, her two half-sisters, and her half-brother steer. They are all coming up on two years of age.

Given the publicity about Planned Parenthood lately, this should not bother us, right? Sadly, life is quite expendable these days.

[cascade]

You could probably find someone who hunts deer, to come to your place and take care of it and they could take the meat and pay you. Perhaps $1 per pound live weight.

If you do it soon, the rather small fetus will just very quickly pass, along with the mother, due to lack of oxygen. No big deal.

If you lived nearby, I'd come help you, since I take care of these things myself on my farm.

[karenp]

I read somewhere that veal started out as unborn calf, not sure if it's true. Curious, what was this issue with milking her?

[jamshundred]

Karen,

You are asking me to step into the boiling pot.   LOL.

This is a modern cow.   A friend has a herd of modern animals, and the mother of this cow I took in trade for a piece of equipment.

 For years, as I made a list of bull after aggressive bull coming off the Lucifer bloodlines I believed the aggression was sex related and only present in males.  However, last year, I personally had an experience with a young heifer from this line, and I had another owner relate problems with another female in his herd, which led me to re-think my original suppositions, and I've been doing that. I started remembering various cows from this bloodline that have passed my way, or that I knew from other owners.  In my herd, I recalled that they were always the most aggressive with other cows, and they were greedy and pushy and would chase you down and try to grab a bucket from your hand.  I've been hearing this from a couple of other owners.    This is the preamble.

I sold a full sister of this cow to the same owner, she was trained to milk and the owner liked her a lot.  So he was interested in this cow.  From the beginning I told him I thought she was "edgy".  I have come to recognize a "look in the eyes", a wariness and a body stance that alerts me to caution.  Long story short, she became aggressive.   I'm still "thinking" on this, because all the unacceptable aggression "I" have seen in the Lucifer females seems to come when situations change for them or they feel "pressure" in any way.   I am beginning to think  more and more the aggression may be in both sexes,  and in the animals who display it, both the males and females, they can rapidly become aggressive and threatening.

I think it very important that all owners who raise this bloodline be willing to give honest thought to experiences with their animals.  I am sincerely fearful someone is yet going to be sincerely injured or killed because the owners in the breed refuse to discuss or acknowledge there ARE issues in this bloodline that need to be addressed.  Not every animal! ! !   But even one is worthy of thought and dialogue, and there are many more than one.   Many of the people who come into this breed have no experience with livestock at all. . . .  and that sweet "tame" bull or cow they have purchased, when confined in a strange area, or in a noisy situation, or being loaded or seperated from a calf. ... could become dangerous.  I never see these things discussed.

 

I 

[karenp]

Just thinking out load. Clearly not a family cow prospect, but do you think there is a place for more flighty, aggressive animals in an area with a high predator population?

Are they looking for a replacement? If Candy (Christmas's daughter) is bred, I'm going to keep her and sell Joy. I'd really like to see her go to a good home. She's a nice milk cow, I just prefer Candy due to her smaller size.

[cascade]

You don't understand what the term "bloodline" means and you don't understand how genetics work.

Bloodlines take many, many generations of linebreeding to develop, and they fall apart quickly if not maintained. Woodmagic is one of very few actual bloodlines in existence in Dexters, and it will rapidly erode now that the originator has passed.

The bull you speak of was random bred and was never part of a bloodline.

Temperament is polygenetic and can't flow down through the generations from a distant ancestor. Instead, the genetic combinations get torn apart and recombined each generation.

[jamshundred]

Oh Lord.......spare me!

[teatpuller11]

Karen. Veal is young calf, slaughtered at 4-5 months, usually milk fed.  This is how dairies get rid of all those byproduct calves from milk cows.  They are now usually kept out of sight behind the barn in those little white igloos, but used to be kept in slatted crates in a dark barn, stacked several crates high, but this has been banned.  Because they only get milk, the meat is creamy/grew colored, and very tender as the animal doesn't get a chance to move around  very much.  Given cows are herd animals, I think even this 'improved' method is bad, as they can't interact with each other.

[karenp]

Sept 14, 2017 20:35:12 GMT teatpuller11 said:

Karen. Veal is young calf, slaughtered at 4-5 months, usually milk fed.  This is how dairies get rid of all those byproduct calves from milk cows.  They are now usually kept out of sight behind the barn in those little white igloos, but used to be kept in slatted crates in a dark barn, stacked several crates high, but this has been banned.  Because they only get milk, the meat is creamy/grew colored, and very tender as the animal doesn't get a chance to move around  very much.  Given cows are herd animals, I think even this 'improved' method is bad, as they can't interact with each other.

I understand how veal is produced now. If you have the time to kill and want to look it up, you can find several references that state veal originally came from unborn calves. There is also a high demand for the skin is unborn calves. I have no problem eating meat, but I agree, the production of veal is cruel. I don't eat it.

[teatpuller11]

Hi Karen. news to me. So I took your advice, and found all sorts of info.  thanks.

[jamshundred]

When I googled the question of whether pregnant cows are butchered, ( I had not stopped to think of all those holstein cows that go through sale barns that are sickly or crippled), the stories about the calves dying after the mother's are killed and hung were horrible, and in that video I linked of the holstein, you can clearly see the little calf kicking in her.  Some of the photos/videos I saw showed piles of wet calves.
One of the worse videos I saw was abuse of animals at a dairy, with cattle prods.  Especially on down animals or sick/crippled cows they were trying to load, I suppose to take to sale barns or slaughter.  The bellows of those cows are haunting.

Kirk>>  Re Lucifer.  You know exactly what I meant with my comments.  As usual, any mention of the "mean gene" in Lucifer descendants meets with efforts to deflect.  I am getting so annoyed by this issue being ignored I am going to take it further and do more . . ..  a directed investigation.

Carol Davidson knew the bull Jupiter, and she advised he had issues.     The owner of Lucifer swears he was a tame and non-violent bull, yet he was shot dead at a holding facility because he went berserk.

Since the issues with the females in the past 1 1/2 years I've started to go through the cases I've seen related.    Is it possible there is an inability to handle stress rather than a "mean gene"?  Lucifer was stressed by transport and a holding facility.  Was there always an issue lurking just waiting for circumstances?   I was told by Mark Weber in a phone conversation, ( which was not about Lucifer descendants) Glencara Finerty broke bad and tore apart his barn yard so he sold him.   Apparently Matt DeLavega was not concerned because he collected him and sells semen.  ( By the way, both of these bulls were/are HUGE - so I have been told).   The young bull I saw in Virginia was simply loco.  His brain had left.  He was the most frightening creature I've ever witnessed.   That is how Fred Chesterley described Lane's End Wizard, yet Sandy Thomas always maintained he was not a threatening bull.  ( until he put her in a tree and was then removed from the herd).    The bull owned by a friend of mine in PA, was second on the list of those I've personally met and feared.  I would never go in the field with that bull.  I always stayed well away from the fence line, with a means of escape or tree to climb.   The bull that belonged to an owner in PA I do not know about other than the owner telling me the bull went after the veterinarian and had him down in a corner.  I know a former Director had his Lucifer descendant charge and hit him in the leg, and on a different occasion another from the same line chased a visitor.    There was an owner on FB who showed a photo of his "loco" bull that he had in a pen waiting transporto to the sale barn.  I looked up the owner and the animal, . . . and sure enough there was Lucifer.  Another person related herding animals into a paddock area by a barn, and the bull went after him.     There are more stories.     I've looked at records of breeders who breed from Lucifer, and I wonder. . .  why do they sell so few bulls, and why are there so few descendants from the animals?   Personality?  And now, the issue of aggression in female descendants is one, that in bringing it up, may bring to mind the same sort of behavior by other owners.      There is a bottom line.   Whatever the cause, or the reason, there are far too many descendants of Lucifer that have endangered humans.  It NEEDS to be discussed and potential owners need to be TOLD so they are aware.  And careful.

OH!  I just noticed.  Kirk has a vested interest in descendants of Lucifer.  HA!  Now I see why there was such a smarmy reply.  

 Let me say this Kirk.   I have never laid claim to scientific comprehension of any sort.  Never.  Pretty much the opposite in fact.   However, I am an observer and a thinker, and I was blessed with a great memory. . . . . so I don't forget much.  Usually, what always grabs my attention and curiosity is that which is not said or written when I expect it, or if what is said or written makes no sense in the totality. . ..  and then I want to know why.  That is what triggered my curiosity relating to SP.  The deflection of discussion and questions about him.  Seemed to me simpler to just answer the questions.   There IS a problem with descendants of Lucifer and it merits discussion.  Simple as that.

I might mention, though I probably shouldn't, that there are two other herds that I've heard discussed as having problematic bulls.  One was Knotting. .. and the other was. . . Woodmagic.   I know of 2 WM calves bred from AI that I was told had issues.  One was born in Missouri, and maybe the other one was as well.  Both were owned by members of leadership in this breed.   The first one I was told was destroyed as he showed aggression as a calf.  The other one charged the wife of a Director, causing injury and I believe an operation to repair it.  He was young too.  I was told by an English breeder that it is known among older breeders that there were problems with WM bulls.  As a matter of fact, I believe Mrs. Rutherford was herself attacked.

Kirk, you did again.  Will you never learn that I don't go quietly into the night?

[cascade]

Knotting and Woodmagic were both hardcore dairy herds.

That often means bull calves are taken away from their mothers and are bottle fed. That's a MAJOR mistake in raising bulls.

Bulls need to be socialized in a natural herd setting.

A poorly raised dairy bull's behavior doesn't tell you much about his genetics.

Regardless, behavior is highly polygenetic and can't easily be passed down through the generations, unless you're specifically selecting toward some certain behavior generation after generation.

I do know that Dexter bull behavior can be stunningly easy and friendly. I've raised many many scores of them and I love them. I usually have 10 or 20 super friendly intact Dexter bulls around at any given time.

If you want a super friendly one, I'll send one your way.

[jamshundred]

If you want a super friendly one, I'll send one your way.

That's a very generous offer, but I have my own sweet bulls.  Christmas is quite a favorite among the girls he visits both bovine and human.   He has been stressed to the max repeatedly and has never mis-behaved.   I have NEVER had anything but trustworthy bulls in my preservation lines.  

I am always willing to look for alternate environmental/social reasons for aberrant behavior. . . . but there are simply too many recorded cases of bulls that descend from Lucifer to ignore there is some genetic connection.  Especially now that the issue of female pushy and perhaps dangerous aggressive personalities are being discussed as part of the total picture.

[karenp]

Christmas is an absolute favorite here. I'm keeping one of his daughters.

[jamshundred]

I am sooooooooo confused.     Or . . . .am I the one that is confused?    Confusing isn't it?

KIRK>>>>>>   Temperament is polygenetic and can't flow down through the generations from a distant ancestor. Instead, the genetic combinations get torn apart and recombined each generation.

FB Post ( screen snapped below and my emphasis on first sentence),  Kirk CascadeGroup Admin    Temperament is genetic. You can create lines of Dexters that are genetically very sweet and calm, without much handling at all. On our farm, we purposefully don't do too much with the calves before 6 months, so we can observe which ones are naturally calm and personable to make them key parts of our breeding program. Doing this over the generations, results in much calmer genetics.



Genetically calm animals make life easier for everyone.

[cascade]

Both those statements are true.

I've created a true line of red, Homozygous-polled, A2/A2, short and thick, hardy, exceptionally friendly Dexters.

I could provide you with a bull and a couple of cows from this line and they would breed true for those features, and all the calves would be very similar.

But if you took just one of my animals and mixed them into your herd, then the offspring, and grand-offspring and great-grand-offspring would NOT be my lines.

The features that I bred into my lines, wouldn't magically stay intact as they are crossed into your black horned herd, unless you worked very hard to select for my traits. Having one of my animals as a great grandparent on your pedigree wouldn't magically give you all the traits from my line.

[jamshundred]

I notice you say nothing about size.   Because no more than any of the rest of us, whether we breed chondro or not there are variables as to size.   

This I know. . . . .  .if you are NOT keeping the dwarf in your herd. . . . . you are not keeping a true Dexter herd.

[cascade]

I could set you up with a starter herd of a 41" tall 900 pound bull and several 39" tall girls that would consistently give you calves very close to those sizes.

Those sizes could be called "dwarf" since "dwarf" just means smaller than average.. But they wouldn't have dwarfism defect genes.

[jamshundred]

I bet not.

Breeding down to miniature animals is not controllable.  You have two ends of the spectrum in the genetic package.  The larger ancestors and the smaller bred down genes.   You can more control the size of a herd of Dexters by breeding the original foundation dwarf cattle than you can with bred down miniaturized cattle.   But you don't realize that.  You have no experience to rely on.

[cascade]

I'm not "breeding down to miniature"

I'm selecting to the breed standard, which is something all good breeders do in any breed.

The current size standard in the US says most Dexter bulls should be 38" - 44" tall and most Dexter cows should be 36" - 42"


I'm aiming for the middle of those ranges. That's NOT miniaturization. That's following the breed standards and you definitely can create lines that fit a tight range within the standards.

Miniaturization would be selecting animals that are smaller than the breed standards. I'm not doing that.

[lakeportfarms]

Sept 18, 2017 0:17:11 GMT cascade said:

I'm not "breeding down to miniature"

I'm selecting to the breed standard, which is something all good breeders do in any breed.

The current size standard in the US says most Dexter bulls should be 38" - 44" tall and most Dexter cows should be 36" - 42"


I'm aiming for the middle of those ranges. That's NOT miniaturization. That's following the breed standards and you definitely can create lines that fit a tight range within the standards.

Miniaturization would be selecting animals that are smaller than the breed standards. I'm not doing that.

I wonder what would happen if you took your bulls or cows out of your herd, and put them with another Dexter that didn't have related sons, daughters, half brothers/sisters, etc... as you have in much of your herd.  Would you get some hybrid vigor, and the Dexters born to those matings jump in size?

I think there is a good possibility, based on some of the animals I've seen out of your lines that exist in other herds.

[cascade]

Sept 19, 2017 10:13:18 GMT lakeportfarms said:

Sept 18, 2017 0:17:11 GMT cascade said:

I'm not "breeding down to miniature"

I'm selecting to the breed standard, which is something all good breeders do in any breed.

The current size standard in the US says most Dexter bulls should be 38" - 44" tall and most Dexter cows should be 36" - 42"


I'm aiming for the middle of those ranges. That's NOT miniaturization. That's following the breed standards and you definitely can create lines that fit a tight range within the standards.

Miniaturization would be selecting animals that are smaller than the breed standards. I'm not doing that.

I wonder what would happen if you took your bulls or cows out of your herd, and put them with another Dexter that didn't have related sons, daughters, half brothers/sisters, etc... as you have in much of your herd.  Would you get some hybrid vigor, and the Dexters born to those matings jump in size?

I think there is a good possibility, based on some of the animals I've seen out of your lines that exist in other herds.

The genetics I started with we're pretty typical of the people breeding high quality Dexters without Chondrodysplasia. In the 70's and 80's and 90's (before Chondrodysplasia testing was available) most folks who wanted to eliminate Chondrodysplasia, would cull any shorter animals. The same thing was also happening in Herefords and Angus to get rid of the dwarfism in their herds. But lots of naturally shorter genes remain hidden in larger animals.

The trick to breeding naturally shorter animals that will breed true for their compact size, is to find those naturally shorter genes and create a lot of homozygosity for those features. That takes time and a good number of generations. That's how Lowlines and Mini-Herefords were created.

Until you reach a good amount of homozygosity, you're still going to have some mixed results, with some larger animals being born.

I have probably 20 animals that are fairly homozygous for their naturally compact size. If I were primarily focused on compact size, I could simply cull any larger cows (my largest is about 44 inches), but they have lots of other great features that I'm working with including premium beef tenderness genetics and premium dairy genetics.

[jamshundred]

Kirk. . . . . you . . ARE. . ... breeding down to miniature.  

Dexters were the "smallest European breed" because they were a dwarf breed of cattle.   Without the dwarf genes. . . you have to breed smaller.   Miniaturize.   It sure bothers you to admit it.

[cascade]

Sept 21, 2017 14:15:25 GMT jamshundred said:

Kirk. . . . . you . . ARE. . ... breeding down to miniature.  

Dexters were the "smallest European breed" because they were a dwarf breed of cattle.   Without the dwarf genes. . . you have to breed smaller.   Miniaturize.   It sure bothers you to admit it.

Let me clear up your confusion.


Dwarf = smaller than typical

Miniature = smaller than typical

Breed = a group of interrelated individuals that all share a common set of breed-defining traits.

True Breed = a group of interrelated individuals that breed true for their breed-defining traits.

Dwarf Breed = any breed where all the individuals of that breed are smaller than the average individuals of that species.

Miniature Breed = any breed where all the individuals of that breed are smaller than the average individuals of that species.

Dwarf Individual = an individual that is unusually small compared to others of its same kind

Miniature individual = an individual that that is unusually small compared to others of its same kind.

Dwarfism Defect = a defect that causes an individual to be dwarfed.

- - - -

Dwarf Nigerian goats are a true dwarf breed because all individuals of that breed are smaller than typical goats. They don't have dwarfism defects.

Chondrodysplasia Dexters suffer from a dwarfism defect that dwarfs them due to aggrecan deficiency (starving them of a critical protein). They can not breed true for their size and proportions because their broken gene is lethal in the homozygous condition.

True short Dexters are a true breed because they breed true for their short statures.

All old traditional descriptions of Dexters describe a true-breeding breed of short Dexters. None describe the three phenotypes associated with the BD1 chondrodysplasia dwarfism defect.

Dwarfism defects snuck into every smaller cattle breed especially in the 1930's - 1950's until smart breeders noticed and culled those defects.

I have true short Dexters as described by Professor Low in 1840.

[karenp]

Sept 20, 2017 14:50:21 GMT cascade said:

Sept 19, 2017 10:13:18 GMT lakeportfarms said:

I wonder what would happen if you took your bulls or cows out of your herd, and put them with another Dexter that didn't have related sons, daughters, half brothers/sisters, etc... as you have in much of your herd.  Would you get some hybrid vigor, and the Dexters born to those matings jump in size?

I think there is a good possibility, based on some of the animals I've seen out of your lines that exist in other herds.

The genetics I started with we're pretty typical of the people breeding high quality Dexters without Chondrodysplasia. In the 70's and 80's and 90's (before Chondrodysplasia testing was available) most folks who wanted to eliminate Chondrodysplasia, would cull any shorter animals. The same thing was also happening in Herefords and Angus to get rid of the dwarfism in their herds. But lots of naturally shorter genes remain hidden in larger animals.

The trick to breeding naturally shorter animals that will breed true for their compact size, is to find those naturally shorter genes and create a lot of homozygosity for those features. That takes time and a good number of generations. That's how Lowlines and Mini-Herefords were created.

Until you reach a good amount of homozygosity, you're still going to have some mixed results, with some larger animals being born.

I have probably 20 animals that are fairly homozygous for their naturally compact size. If I were primarily focused on compact size, I could simply cull any larger cows (my largest is about 44 inches), but they have lots of other great features that I'm working with including premium beef tenderness genetics and premium dairy genetics.

This is the first time I've heard you mention breeding for dairy genetic (I may have missed it, I'm not on here religiously)Do you milk your Dexters? What kind of production are you getting? I love to hear about breeders who actually milk. I don't think the dual purpose qualities of the breed can be maintained without it.

[cascade]

I only sporadically milk a few cows here and there for home use, but there are some DNA tests that can help you select premium dairy genetics. There are also some DNA tests that can help you select premium beef genetics.