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Post by jamshundred on Sept 19, 2017 13:19:57 GMT
It is sooooo past time for there to be leadership in the Dexter breed that works for the breed and it's owners. I am excited by the ideas and actions of the new PDCA. They are working to fulfill the commitment PDCA brought to the Dexter breed and owners in 2004. If PDCA can manage to keep the focus on what works for owners without re-directing the breed itself (as has happened in the past couple decades by self-serving leadership) it should be an exciting time for PDCA owners. Read this one page. . . . www.dexterstoday.com/easytools |
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Post by lakeportfarms on Sept 19, 2017 23:40:25 GMT
I do hope they reconsider their "certified" registration. As it now stands, my fully DNA tested and reported chondro carriers CANNOT be included in the "certified", but can only be registered in the "standard" registration, the same as the untested Dexters. You all know how I feel about the carriers, and although I have no problem with information regarding the breeding of carriers, the current standard appears to diminish the chondro carriers. Kirk is pleased, I'm sure.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2017 1:37:29 GMT
Hans, the certified program is not something new. I had already asked that this be reconsidered.
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Post by genebo on Sept 20, 2017 2:11:05 GMT
A long time ago, I dropped my membership in PDCA due to their emphasis on eliminating chondro. Gabriella Nanci convinced the board to issue some new statements de-emphasising the elimination of chondro. The "backed-off" position on chondro was the Certified Registration classification. They stated that they would no longer promote the elimination of chondro. Now they simply assert through the Certified that non-chondro Dexters are superior.
It isn't what I was after, but it was the closest I could get. Therefore, I renewed my membership in the PDCA.
The activity in the PDCA declined for a few years. I eventually failed to renew one year, so I am no longer a member. Not because of a disagreement, but just because of so little activity. For a long time, they weren't even keeping the on-line pedigree up to date.
This new spate of activity has drawn my interest. I believe that this might be a good time to renew my mebership again.
Quite possibly the first item to address would be the attitude that the PDCA shows toward our beloved chondro carriers.
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Post by legendrockranch on Sept 20, 2017 3:01:14 GMT
I think you all should look very seriously before you jump in without being informed. The PDCA still has a lack of membership, I show only 216 active membership. www.pdca-pedigree.org/br_results.php?order=oname&qn=%25 Do you realize that the PDCA has outsourced.... "PDCA is happy to announce it is contracting with a professional Registry Service to process our standard registrations, transfers and memberships". Was membership aware of this? I know when the ADCA was thinking about outsourcing all heck broke out. And yes as mentioned prior. Certified Registration In addition to being from a registered sire and registered dam a Certified Registration indicates that an animal is 1. Genotyped for identification 2. Proven negative for PHA 3. Proven negative for Chondrodysplasia Gook luck folks. |
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Post by cascade on Sept 20, 2017 4:46:38 GMT
I understand being a fan of compact Dexters... That's why I want an entire herd of them.
I understand people who like horns and I understand those who want an entire herd of them.
I don't understand the silly concept of multiple registries for a single small breed. It's destructive to the breed and confusing to most people.
If a new registry was created everytime someone wasn't perfectly happy, we'd have hundreds of registries. It's best to stick with one registry and make some compromises.
In the long haul, the minor registries will collapse anyway.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Sept 20, 2017 12:10:43 GMT
If they would re-work the "certified" registration to include tested Dexters without regard to status, then I would happily register my 100 plus Dexters to the PDCA. In the past two years, we have started nearly 40 new members to the ADCA. Yet a couple of months ago when I advertised a few of our Dexters with a Legacy registration but with an additional charge for ADCA registration and transfer, I was chastised publically on FB by my ADCA regional representative for offering the option of no ADCA registration to a buyer. Nearly universally, when I speak with other owners of Dexters who have chondro carriers in their herd, but they are not active members of an association, the response is that they prefer to avoid the drama and just sell their chondro positive Dexters as unregistered, because of the way the association (and many of their members) treats them. There is a great opportunity for an association if they would stop treating the chondro carrier as something to be discouraged. It is, after all, a defining characteristic of the Dexter breed. Any successful business or organization looks for opportunities to grow and serve their target market, and are responsive to their customer or member needs. Legacy has been exemplary in this regard. The PDCA has shown much improvement but obviously still has some past policy that I think should be re-visited. When an association treats a major member that way, they lose my support. Just as a couple of years ago when the official bulletin included a statement that "hopefully death dealing defects like chondrodysplasia and PHA will be eliminated from the breed". So if I'm being consistent, an association that regards a chondro Dexter as a inferior Dexter, even though without chondrodysplasia the breed probably wouldn't even exist today, I can't in good conscience support them either. The ADCA is sitting on over 1/4 million dollars, yet they really don't promote the breed. How much would a quarter page ad in Mother Earth News cost? Or one of the other homesteading magazines, for example? The requirement for female genotyping was instituted, yet they refuse to consider extending or eliminating the late registration surcharge, even when a Dexter can be parent verified. As far as outsourcing the registration, I think it's a great plan. Run the registration applications past key members of the PDCA, including the DNA genotype reports with markers if you'd like them sire and/or dam qualified to make sure there is no funny business going on, and leave the input and maintenance of the registry to somebody else. Canada keeps their association and the registry functions separate, and it seems to work fine for them. I don't have time to finish my thoughts, I'm too busy answering inquiries about a little silver high percentage Highland chondro positive bull that was born a couple of days ago. The little chondro Highlands are going to kill me...I'm not getting any sleep. www.facebook.com/groups/1322588717840475/ |
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Post by lhaggard on Sept 20, 2017 14:59:51 GMT
Give the PDCA time, folks. It's only been 2 1/2 months since the change in leadership took place. Already, lots of changes for the better. Now, registrations are scrutinized by 3 different people before the registration is recorded, where, before, only 1 person. New website. Board meetings are open to any member to listen in. Transparency is what PDCA wants to get across to its members. PDCA wants to be and WILL be a member driven Association. As for the membership numbers--they're coming up every day. PDCA doesn't have a quarter of a million dollar war chest, so some things are gonna take a little bit longer, but eventually they'll make the members proud to be a part of PDCA. By the way, PDCA is not anti-ADCA. PDCA says the past is the past, let's look to the future. The PDCA umbrella is large enough for all--Traditional and Modern, Horned and Polled, Short-leg and Long-leg.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Sept 20, 2017 17:04:44 GMT
Larry, what are the chances of them addressing the "certified" registration in the near future? I know you have, and like your carriers as well. It's hard enough to dispel some of the beliefs of prospective buyers who have seen websites and other breeders who advertise "chondro and PHA free herds" and think it's a bad thing, but having an association that gives preference to non-carriers is a non-starter for me because I have to try and dispel that information as well.
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Post by lhaggard on Sept 20, 2017 20:20:28 GMT
lakeportfarms we're working on that now. Evidently the "certified" registration was started way back in the beginning of PDCA and was never addressed since then. PDCA is definitely not biased against chondro carriers. Stay tuned for new and exciting things in the Dexter world.
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Post by teatpuller11 on Sept 21, 2017 0:52:31 GMT
Mr. Haggard: I strongly disagree with the ADCA holding such a huge asset without using it for the benefit of the breed. If my reading of history is correct, though, the Flehartys left the ADCA bankrupt, and the $$ has only been accumulated since the split. Don't knock them for being financially prudent, even if they have gone overboard. Once your numbers are up, you can have a big war chest, too. I think it's wonderful that finally someone associated with the breed is pushing for things that benefit Dexters and not the whim (and pocketbook) of the Directors. As our aussie friends would say, good onya.
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Post by cascade on Sept 21, 2017 1:11:35 GMT
There is no reason for the PDCA to exist... The best thing they could do for the breed and for breeders, is to re-merge with the ADCA so we can all be one big happy family.
It's going to happen sooner or later because there simply aren't enough Dexter cattle nor breeders to support more than one organization in the long haul.
It's silly for us Americans to have some of our Dexters registered in one registry and some in another registry. New people shake their heads with disbelief over the confusion.
If registries split up every time someone isn't perfectly happy, we'd soon have 100 registries. It's time for us all to grow up and do some rational thinking and compromising.
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Post by jamshundred on Sept 21, 2017 10:42:11 GMT
Hans. Without any doubt this "certification" program should be adapted. First, the Dexter breed IS a dwarf breed. Discouraging the breeding of the dwarf cattle has changed the breed drastically, and moved it away from the traits that were so valued in the breed. This certification program was initiated by a few to benefit their herds. I suggest to PDCA leadership that the certification program be adapted to reflect completed/reported testing results but without prejudice as to results. The basis of many leadership errors over the past couple of decades has stemmed from ignorance of the breed and it's history, as well as a seeming lack of interest in investigating issues. ( Like outcrossed imports)!
Barb,
The number of members or users ( Legacy) means nothing. Numbers come and numbers go. It is refreshing and exciting to see emphasis by a second registry ( Legacy being the first of course), on the interests of the breed and it's owners. ADCA began moving away from that focus in 1987, and exacerbated it in 2004 when the leadership anointed itself an oligarchy and . . . . . WITHOUT. . . . . . . input or approval of the membership, illegally, removed ALL rights of the members. Members had NO vote on the filing of amended legal documents or their content.
The outsourcing concern I've mentioned in a previous thread, and I think it not the best idea. The person may be experienced with the system and with registering of other breeds, but not with Dexters! However I understand the system will be similar to the Legacy system in simplicity, so I think PDCA would be better served to keep the registrar duties in house and with someone experienced with the breed.
I understand you have problems with clarity and cognition so let me make this clear for you. There are three registries, solely and absolutely because of ADCA leadership or the lack thereof. No other reason.
ADCA leadership most certainly has been the most destructive force in the Dexter breed.
Teatpuller, that was not my recollection, so I went and looked. By the written words of the ADCA treasurer in 2005, members were assured that ADCA was financially secure. There WERE losses in 2004, but it is my opinion they could be attributed to the "takeover" and related expenses. Before that, ADCA had been making a profit to the point that IRS filings had to be changed because they were accumulating too high a balance.
More lack of historical perspective. There are many reasons for PDCA to exist and everyone of those reasons is connected to a few persons who wanted the power and control of ADCA. Kirk, do you realize how many long-time breeders LEFT the association in 2004 to form PDCA? These were members who had served in many leadership capacities with ADCA, shepherded the association through the years. Their reasons and concerns were valid, and I get really annoyed at those, like you, who are clueless but still dismissive and disrespectful of their choice. One person had been a member in ADCA for FORTY years, another, thirty-three years, another, twenty-nine years, another thirty-one years, and numerous members with 10-15-20 years in Dexters. Over HALF the membership left in protest. It is very arrogant and ignorant of you to dismiss their concerns as having "no reason". "Big Happy Family?" You are apparently clueless to the vindictive and spiteful treatment they received from a leadership stunned by the outcome of their own ignorance and desperate to blame anyone but themselves. (PS. Their concerns, in retrospect, were valid. Every right the members enjoyed under the old leadership were removed by the new, until ADCA members currently have NO rights unless they are granted by the oligarchy).
Truth is. . .. . if there is to be "one happy family" then it needs different initials than ADCA because they were nasty, vindictive and spiteful in 2004 and they are just as mean-spirited today. I recently had an email forwarded to me where current leadership of ADCA was described as "ignorant and vindictive". I agree with that assessment.
Kirk, ADCA has been the least progressive force in the Dexter breed. Look at what Legacy accomplished in just a few years while ADCA sat on their hands refusing to help, refusing to participate, instead they tried to thwart advancement. Can you imagine a leadership that would NOT recognize UCD as a laboratory? The top lab in the country in cattle testing services? Can you imagine a cattle association that refuses to participate in a preservation effort, and instead makes rule after rule to thwart the effort. Can you imagine a cattle association that repeatedly and boldly lies to it's membership?
EVERY single progressive idea and action in the Dexter breed in the last 15 years has NOT involved or flowed from ADCA. ADCA is STALE. Were it not for tradition and free memberships they give away to remain pertinent, and the hook of holding members hostage via registrations, ADCA would be teetering on the brink of Dexter history.
The mindset of ADCA and it's lack of concern for this breed and owners is mirrored by it's arrogant dismissive attitude towards . .. refusal to acknowledge, and behind-the-scenes efforts to keep their members from using Legacy, a registry that not only had the same requirments, but the strictest requirements for registration in the US. ( confirmed by ADCA copying Legacy repeatedly). ADCA has been so caught up in fear on the one hand and deperate need for power and control on the other, leadership has missed the forest for focusing on the trees. Instead of working with, and embracing those sincerely focused on good for the breed and owners, they circled their little wagons of power, control, manipulation, and sat spinning their wagon wheels stagnating. Stagnating! ! ! ! ! EVERY single new idea and innovation to assist humans and Dexters has been accomplished outside of ADCA. They couldn't even provide the updated registry services their members have requested for several years now. First they promised they would do so by the end of 2015, then by June of 2016, then by September of 2016, then by the anniversary celebration. Now, they don't even mention it.
Kirk, you are beating a dead cow. Or at least. . . . . one that has exhibited all the signs of death! ADCA has absolutely NO accomplishments that have been positive for this breed in 20 years. Dead cow ! !
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Post by lakeportfarms on Sept 21, 2017 13:58:49 GMT
There is no reason for the PDCA to exist... The best thing they could do for the breed and for breeders, is to re-merge with the ADCA so we can all be one big happy family. It's going to happen sooner or later because there simply aren't enough Dexter cattle nor breeders to support more than one organization in the long haul. It's silly for us Americans to have some of our Dexters registered in one registry and some in another registry. New people shake their heads with disbelief over the confusion. If registries split up every time someone isn't perfectly happy, we'd soon have 100 registries. It's time for us all to grow up and do some rational thinking and compromising. I've raised Dexters since 2005. Sure, just a few at first, but starting around 2008 we added more to our herd and have kept growing, and growing, and growing. For the first few years we didn't bother registering calves or even transferring the Dexters into our name, so I missed all the drama. We were happy just raising the little Dexters, selling the calves for a reasonable price, and the whole experience was satisfying, and most important, simple. We have full time jobs, and kids, and a life outside of the cattle. As we grew, joined the ADCA (because the Dexters that we owned had been registered with the ADCA and we wanted to keep it simple) it was still fairly simple to register our Dexters. The bull genotype requirement came along, and that wasn't so bad because it was just one animal. Then we tested for PHA, even though we didn't have any Dexters that descended from Wheatear, because everyone that had heard of it asked about it and wanted proof that we didn't have it in our herd, as though cows could catch it from each other. I probably spent $600 at the time to do the testing, because it cost $30 and there were no bundled rates. Then came chondrodysplasia, and even though we could readily see who was a carrier and who wasn't, people would request that we test that. I think the chondro test was $40 at the time, again, no bundling. Then came A2 milk, and everybody wanted to know the status of the calves that we were selling. Even if they never had plans to milk them. I still consider A2 to be extremely damaging to the breed, because the people most likely to test for it and sell Dexters based on it were the polled breeders, who were selling their animals for more money, and more easily, than the Traditional Dexter breeders who couldn't justify another expense and stopped registering their Dexters, or who jumped on the polled train. Finally we had the female genotype requirement...and I believe this came about because polled breeders were tired of having the parentage of their animals questioned, and it was worth it to them to have a test requirement so they could claim 100% purebred Dexter status. Again, they could justify it because they were commanding high prices, and they would sell easily. More breeders of Traditional horned Dexters dropped out. Of course, the vote was tallied in June, and the only people who knew about it were active ADCA members or those who participated in the proboard sites or maybe on one of the Facebook pages. Many small breeders were probably waiting to see what they had in calves before they renewed their membership for the year, so they didn't participate in the vote. Obviously polled breeders were more likely to have sent in their dues and registered all of their polled bull calves to sell as herd sires, no matter the conformation, temperament, etc.... Some of us predicted the outcome from much of this, and did our best to warn others, but it fell mostly on deaf ears. If the genotype requirement was going to happen, I started pushing that there was now no reason to have a late registration fee, and it should be delayed or even abolished, and linked to the genotype requirement. Proponents of the genotype requirement said "no, let's get the genotype requirement, and then we can address the late registration". Well, we've seen how that all worked out. So Kirk, it's not just a couple of things, and there will never be one big happy family, and all the compromising has been done by a majority of the members, in favor of some of the specific members/breeders and leadership of the ADCA. Our regional director position is available at the end of the year. I have signed up 40 odd new members to the ADCA in the past couple of years. I could probably call most all of them and ask for their support to run, and maybe even get a majority of the votes. But I won't be approved, because I test and register with Legacy. But Legacy isn't recognized by the ADCA, so I'm not sure why I wouldn't be accepted. You have said polled has been good for the Dexter breed, and we should accept that because it brought new life to the breed and horned Dexters were a dying breed. Now, polled Dexters constitute the majority of registrations and horned, especially those Traditional lines, are a small percentage. Well, I think that Legacy, and hopefully now the PDCA, will bring some life to the breed, and give people who are once again looking for a more simple process of maintaining the registrations of their Dexters. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Legacy along with the PDCA ends up becoming the equal or even preferred choice for owners in the coming years. PDCA appears to have embraced Legacy, and will allow transfers of Dexters from both Legacy and ADCA equally. |
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Post by otf on Sept 21, 2017 15:30:18 GMT
Hans, I think your post outlines quite well the ever increasing testing requirements ("required" either by the registry or "required" in order to be competitive and sell one's stock) and thus Dexters have become quite high maintenance; people new to the breed probably drop their jaws when they encounter the list of things they need to test for. Thankfully, Legacy has simplified things for breeders.
At the risk of creating a major issue -- or perhaps not -- as I recall: When my husband was a director, there was growing concern about registration errors, whether intentional or otherwise (remember, Dexters were growing in popularity at this time). Robert proposed RANDOM testing of bulls (I don't recollect the precise numbers or how it was to be carried out, except he proposed that the ADCA pick up the tab for any of the animals selected for testing). At any rate, at that year's AGM, those in attendance somehow confused the issue during extensive discussion and the ADCA adopted mandatory genotyping of ALL bulls at that same meeting, but the original motion as presented (random testing) was NOT voted on by the members in attendance -- in other words, it was made a requirement but never agreed on by the membership. I'll run this description by him and maybe he can clarify it, but I've heard him relay this story numerous times. If my memory of this is incorrect, I'll post afterward.
Gale
Correction: Robert tells me that the random bull testing proposal was discussed (and changed) in a meeting of directors before the membership meeting at the AGM. The ADCA was going to "assist" with payment for testing random bulls because they could not afford to test all bulls. The directors changed it to all bulls instead of random bulls and voted on it, with Robert dissenting. He said it was all done quickly and in a very confused manner. Membership did not vote on this. I don't know what happened to the payment issue. My memory was correct in that registration errors were increasing (not that the registrar made errors, but intentionally incorrect information was often being submitted on registration applications -- people having too many bulls in the same pasture, other bull breeds in the pasture, etc.).
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Post by lakeportfarms on Sept 21, 2017 18:14:36 GMT
Gale and Judy,
There really isn't anything new in what I've said, sadly however, it needs to be said over and over because there are a lot of new breeders now whose excitement and enjoyment with the Dexter breed is still relatively fresh. They purchased their Dexters, the breeders registered and transferred them and took care of all of the testing, and they even get their first year membership at no charge. Many of them haven't even had any calves yet, or if they have it's only one or two, and so they haven't had to navigate the myriad steps over and over again with a lot of animals. Perhaps they haven't yet sold any, or their customers haven't had any calves, so they haven't had to spend hours on the phone or through e mails walking their customers through the genotype, testing, registration process. Those of us who have a lot to register/transfer, or customers who are now registering their first Dexters, are extremely frustrated by the complexity of the process and more so explaining it to our customers. If a customer from a few years ago calls and says "how do I register my heifer?" what am I to say? It's too time consuming, call the ADCA? I can't do that to them, after all, I sold them their Dexters and registered them in the ADCA to get them started on this process, and I rely too much on word of mouth sales... When our regional director basically chewed me out on FB for offering a reduced price on our calves to somebody looking for basic Legacy registration and no ADCA registration/transfer, that soured me even further about the whole process, and the ADCA in general.
It sounds like the PDCA is going to show no bias against chondro carriers, and that it is a vestige of the old PDCA that just hasn't been addressed yet in the short time new leadership has taken the reins . That would be great news if certified registration is revised to reflect tested, but without prejudice toward a chondro (or even PHA) positive Dexter.
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Post by teatpuller11 on Sept 22, 2017 5:06:16 GMT
hans, why would you suggest pha is okay? recessive, deadly, not part of the original breed, no benefit to the breed, everything negative. There are lots of Dexters out there, and there's been lots of time for people to select nonpha replacement heifers or bulls from carriers. If Dexters were of commercial value, you can bet the assns. would have helped owners eradicate pha. It's not like chondro, so why support it?
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Post by lakeportfarms on Sept 22, 2017 8:42:53 GMT
hans, why would you suggest pha is okay? recessive, deadly, not part of the original breed, no benefit to the breed, everything negative. There are lots of Dexters out there, and there's been lots of time for people to select nonpha replacement heifers or bulls from carriers. If Dexters were of commercial value, you can bet the assns. would have helped owners eradicate pha. It's not like chondro, so why support it? I'm not saying PHA is OK, I'm saying that testing for it should be encouraged and the owners and potential buyers should be aware. Not every Dexter out there has been tested after all. And very few people now are going to be scanning back 10 generations or more to see if Wheatear is in the pedigree somewhere. I'd happily purchase a nice heifer or bull out of a PHA positive animal, if the heifer or bull was negative. If that helps the owner recover some of their costs for owning a PHA positive Dexter, then they'll surely be more likely to test for it. It only costs $10 with bundled testing if you test for color or chondro so there isn't much of a financial penalty to testing as there used to be. Those who end up with PHA positive Dexters have the option of either beefing out their animal, or testing each progeny to determine the status. I suspect most would beef them at this point in time. Sticking their head in the sand and saying "nah, nah, nah, I can't hear you" isn't going to eradicate it. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2017 14:36:44 GMT
Some of my best animals are PHA if they were culled for PHA then I wouldn't have some of the excellent offspring that they have had. Its real simple test the offspring and castrate the bulls that carry it but I would never dream of culling a heifer because of it.
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Post by karenp on Sept 22, 2017 19:33:48 GMT
Gale and Judy, There really isn't anything new in what I've said, sadly however, it needs to be said over and over because there are a lot of new breeders now whose excitement and enjoyment with the Dexter breed is still relatively fresh. They purchased their Dexters, the breeders registered and transferred them and took care of all of the testing, and they even get their first year membership at no charge. Many of them haven't even had any calves yet, or if they have it's only one or two, and so they haven't had to navigate the myriad steps over and over again with a lot of animals. Perhaps they haven't yet sold any, or their customers haven't had any calves, so they haven't had to spend hours on the phone or through e mails walking their customers through the genotype, testing, registration process. Those of us who have a lot to register/transfer, or customers who are now registering their first Dexters, are extremely frustrated by the complexity of the process and more so explaining it to our customers. If a customer from a few years ago calls and says "how do I register my heifer?" what am I to say? It's too time consuming, call the ADCA? I can't do that to them, after all, I sold them their Dexters and registered them in the ADCA to get them started on this process, and I rely too much on word of mouth sales... When our regional director basically chewed me out on FB for offering a reduced price on our calves to somebody looking for basic Legacy registration and no ADCA registration/transfer, that soured me even further about the whole process, and the ADCA in general. It sounds like the PDCA is going to show no bias against chondro carriers, and that it is a vestige of the old PDCA that just hasn't been addressed yet in the short time new leadership has taken the reins . That would be great news if certified registration is revised to reflect tested, but without prejudice toward a chondro (or even PHA) positive Dexter. I think you've made a lot of good points. The limited testing I've done has been through Legacy, and it's been a breeze. I have a friend who is building a larger herd and registering with ADCA and has been having difficulty. This is someone who has been raising racehorses, which require parent varification, for years with no issue. I saw the conversation you referenced on face book, your description is accurate. I personally would like to see PHA bred out, but as long as it's tested and the tests are open, it's a personal choice. |
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Post by teatpuller11 on Sept 22, 2017 22:16:45 GMT
Karen, I don't see it as a personal choice. I see it as what's best for the breed. If you have a pha carrier, then by all means TEST all offspring, and cull ANY that are carriers, even if they are heifers. It won't take long to get a couple of nice replacement heifers for that special cow, or cows, and you--and everyone after you--can own and breed without fear. Too many people don't get how important testing is, especially for something like this. As it is, even if you tell the buyer the heifer is a carrier and explain the downside, chances are they won't get it, or won't tell the truth to the next owner (see, it's all about money in the end, isn't it?), I see it as personal responsibility. Ethics or honor integrity or whatever you want to call it. By passing the problem on, I think it's irresponsible and reprehensible. Not that I have strong feelings, however...
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Post by karenp on Sept 22, 2017 23:50:12 GMT
How do you see that happening? Correct me if I'm wrong, but none of the US registries require testing for PHA. Wouldn't requiring posting the status be a step in the right direction? Would you refuse to register PHA carriers? I think that would only encourage owners to hide the carriers. Once again, I agree it should be bred out, but trying to force owners will backfire.
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Post by otf on Sept 23, 2017 1:20:36 GMT
I've been fortunate to have had two PHA- heifers descending from one PHA+ cow. (I didn't believe the first calf could be negative so I tested her again at a different lab to be certain.) The main reason I continued to breed that original cow and her daughter was because of the incredible temperament they passed along, without fail! But NO offspring with PHA+ that was able to reproduce has ever or will ever leave this farm. I'm not breeding anymore, so I can easily say that. It's not something that one can leave up to a buyer who may not comprehend (or might choose to ignore) the consequences. I've always felt that PHA should be a required test; somehow color testing (a red calf from a non red parent) seems to take priority over PHA. Imagine that!
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Post by teatpuller11 on Sept 23, 2017 2:54:46 GMT
Thanks Gale. The assn. should have taken a stand right at the beginning. The assn. has the records, it could check back in pedigrees, but since several directors had positive animals, nothing was done. Sorry, Karen, if you want to keep the cows and all their offspring, okay, at least don't sell off the property any of the grandchildren unless they are tested free. As Gale says, not everyone has the same level of integrity, and money often trumps it. Most chondro owners refused to make their test results public, and I'd bet the farm the same goes for pha. Not what's best for the breed, imo.
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Post by cascade on Sept 23, 2017 3:01:53 GMT
If I were king, I'd do the following:
1. immediately require PHA and Chondrodysplastia testing on every calf being registered, unless the calf was parentage verified to parents already proven to be free of those two known lethal genes.
2. I'd announce now that I'd disallow registration of bull calves with either gene, starting in 2025.
3. I'd announce now that starting in 2030 you could no longer register heifer calves with any known lethal genes (Chondrodysplasia, PHA)
This would give people plenty of time to work toward extracting all the good genetics from their lethal-gene carrying animals, while eliminating those genes by about 2050, when the last of them die of old age.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Sept 23, 2017 10:29:44 GMT
If I were king, I'd do the following: 1. immediately require PHA and Chondrodysplastia testing on every calf being registered, unless the calf was parentage verified to parents already proven to be free of those two known lethal genes. 2. I'd announce now that I'd disallow registration of bull calves with either gene, starting in 2025. 3. I'd announce now that starting in 2030 you could no longer register heifer calves with any known lethal genes (Chondrodysplasia, PHA) This would give people plenty of time to work toward extracting all the good genetics from their lethal-gene carrying animals, while eliminating those genes by about 2050, when the last of them die of old age. So you would do all of that? And you think the associations should all merge and be "one big happy family". If you were king would you also ban any new Dexter associations that would inevitably start up to specifically allow chondro carriers? I believe one of the major goals of the PDCA(you know, the association that you call the failing organization) was to be an association free of both PHA and CHONDRODYSPLASIA! Hahaha....and you wonder why we don't take you seriously much of the time? |
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Post by lhaggard on Sept 23, 2017 13:06:11 GMT
The original goal of PDCA may have been to eradicate PHA and Chondro, but I assure you, that hasn't been its goal the last few years and especially now. Oh, and Kirk forgot to add the 4th thing he'd require if he was king: He would announce that starting in 20__ he would disallow any registration of any bull or cow with horns.
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Post by jamshundred on Sept 23, 2017 14:35:47 GMT
Larry, I think there were several circumstances that collided on the chondrodysplasia negativity. First, and most important, I don't think modern leadership or members realized that Dexter cattle were a dwarf breed. The nomenclature always stated they were " the smallest breed of European cattle" and the dwarf connection sort of fell by the way side of history. ( or political correctness which inevitably leads to dire consequences wherever and whenever it becomes a factor). Second, was PHA. The English ( with a couple large herds in particular) were having large losses of dead calves. I think, in a couple of the herds hardest hit, PHA was a contributing factor. In the US, there is no doubt in my mind there was a strong PHA contributing factor. Two of the largest herds which sold cattle far and wide were riddled with PHA .
It is important to educate Dexter owners that ALL of the traits that were valued in the Dexter breed, and which sustained the breed's popularity, were directly connected to the dwarf genes, and without retaining those genetics in the breed, the breed will be lost. This is for certain. Without the dwarf genetics, the herd grows larger, and without the unique and special traits carried by the dwarf cattle, the breed does not have these unique qualities and becomes LESS THAN the other breeds and soon will fade into obscurity. Though there are those who adore the Kerry breed and are to be commended for rejuvenating that breed in the US as much as possible, even in their native country they are a niche breed, not valued for much more than preservation efforts. A Dexter, without dwarfism, is not much different than a Kerry. Even when, like Kirk, they are bred down to smaller size, they are not going to find a market much beyond pet zoos. More so than larger non-dwarf cattle, these small non-dwarf cattle will slowly die off. They really have nothing but small size to attract them. And probably tasty meat. . . . . but they will NOT compete with other tasty meat animals.
The reality of this is obvious if one sets aside individual interests and looks to the larger picture. These NON-dwarf cattle may have wonderful personalities and ease of calving with protective mothering. . .. . . but SO DO OTHER MEDIUM and LARGE breeds. . . . . and the difference is . . . whether they are dairy or beef, these commercial breeds are functional and profitable long term. Dexter profitablility is not connected to functional reality but to FAD buyers at the moment. Long term this absolutely will not continue unless these non-dwarf cattle are grown to the size of commercial and developed with commercial udders or beef status. There simply has to be qualities of value. . . . and those . . . in Dexter cattle. . . . are only found in the dwarf carriers and descendants. The dwarf Dexter cattle have a package of traits other breeds can only dream of. . . . . and our leadership has failed dreadfully in saving and promoting the value of the dwarf cattle.
If the breed does not begin to recognize, preserve, and promote, the unique qualities that made Dexters so special to begin with. . .. . . eventually the entire breed will struggle as the Kerry breed did. Even with the effort it has to be acknowledged that Dexters will still be a breed, small in numbers, compatible with small holders. Let's give those small holders back the animals that best serve their needs. The entire foundation package which survives on minimal forage, drops calves out in the corner of the field, with preference for privacy and solitude from both humans and their own kind and then will fight to the death to protect that baby, had remarkable and renowned immune systems that in early days did not contract TB and during the hoof and mouth outbreak in England, did not have a single loss while hundreds of thousands of other Dexters were destroyed, has unique impish personalities, mature early for breeding and for eating with meat that rivals all breeds in taste. This is the dwarf Dexter!
Larry, thank you for participating. Members of leadership should be seen and heard!
Judy
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Post by cascade on Sept 23, 2017 15:15:39 GMT
The original goal of PDCA may have been to eradicate PHA and Chondro, but I assure you, that hasn't been its goal the last few years and especially now. Oh, and Kirk forgot to add the 4th thing he'd require if he was king: He would announce that starting in 20__ he would disallow any registration of any bull or cow with horns. PHA is a broken essential gene. The purpose of the good working gene is to help build a normal healthy lymphatic system, for draining excess fluids from tissues. BD1 and BD2 (Chondrodysplasia) are broken essential ACAN genes. The purpose of the working ACAN genes is to produce normal healthy cartilage and bone essential for a normal healthy calf with normal long-lasting joints. Horns are normal and natural and healthy Polled is normal and natural and healthy Dehorning is not normal and natural, and can be torture for the animal. If I were King, I might consider banning dehorning. I'm actually quite fond of horns, any animal born with horns on my farm, keeps those horns. I strongly support people who breed healthy, horned Dexters. I'm consistently in favor of normal, natural, healthy, problem-free Dexters. |
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Post by cascade on Sept 23, 2017 15:33:42 GMT
Chondrodysplasia is caused by a broken ACAN gene, causing malformed cartilage and bone.
That broken gene occurs in every species and breed including cats, mice, rats, etc..
None of the things that Judy loves about Dexters, come from that broken gene.
You can get rid of that broken gene, and still have every trait Judy loves, minus the early-arthritis and dead calves.
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