|
Post by teatpuller11 on Oct 14, 2017 18:11:08 GMT
Thanks, Bill.
Been thinking. How about this for an analogy: If you had a mint condition traveling writing box from 1790, it would be an antique. If you had a traveling box made yesterday from the same plans, with the same attention to detail and the same woods and veneers and horse hoof glues, so if put side by side with the antique you really couldn't tell them apart, in fact they would be identical, one is still an antique, but the other would be a replica. I think that would work in the case of Platinum. His dna is identical to traditional Dexters, but his paperwork says he's got upgrading, so won't qualify. A comparison like this would stop the fight?
Of course, then we come to just how accurate are old pedigrees, because paperwork without verification is just paper. I've noticed in Judy a habit of saying wrong or questionable paper on a traditional was a mistake/accident/unintentional, whereas for anything else, was a deliberate attempt to deceive, usually for profit. There's that selective reasoning again.
Which brings me back to the other issue: Judy doesn't own either test, but she has knowledge of both. Every time Cascade comes on, she harps on the first test, knowing she's being selective.
Mike talks about how Platinum has changed the look of Dexters. But Fermoy sure doesn't look like any traditional Dexter I've ever seen, and there's all sorts of questions about her purity, yet she's held up as an example of perfection...again, antique wild red vs. replica wild red, no matter how unlikely. And checking the pedigrees of Mike's animals on the ADCA site, Platinum is a long way back, so there's 30+ other Dexters in there to add their genetics. A lot of what we call traditional lines are pretty poor examples, with awful udders and pinched bodies. I'd like to have traditional lines but of good quality. A piece of paper doesn't make a good animal and a piece of paper that can't be proven accurate is even worse.
I've managed to get some good quality traditional animals without using Platinum for body type. IMO people who simply breed two traditional animals together without selecting for specific traits are just making more animals, they aren't furthering the interests of the breed. I think there's a place for traditional breeders with a program and a goal, and I think there's a place for the others who want a registerable Dexter with modern genetics accepted by the mainstream. Another analogy: people who dress up in deerskins with powder horns and muskets and like to skulk through the woods with or without a horse vs. the general population who prefer Spandex and cars and central heating
|
|
|
Post by jamshundred on Oct 16, 2017 0:46:45 GMT
NO! I have not. I "get" the game you are playing. And IF you knew anything at all. . . . . you would know your hypothesis is inaccurate. Reminds me of the days of the Cardiff researh when Legacy and the American Dexters took part. There was this particular person who would go on the boards and comment as if they knew anything at all. Well, this person did not. I couldn't discuss it. . . . .but I did have information because of participation. . . . and what I was being told by those who did have the research was entirely different then what this person was pretending to know. This is exactly the same game.
Same game. Same result. Why don't you ask Kirk for a copy of any existing second report? Then you will know what you are talking about. You do not at the moment.
Same game. Same faulty logic. Science called pluto a planet. Science said all little girls and boys just have a vaccine against HPV. Other scientists say youngsters are dying. Which science is to be believed? You cannot turn a sow's ear into a silk purse. SP was a GRADE bull. NO science can change those genes.
I don't think there is a fairer person that exists. You are just trying to push my buttons. Sticks and stones.
What cases? And it wasn't hours. It was hours and hours and hours. .. . . days and days and days. . . . . . months.
Mrs. Fermoy. *I* have told anyone and everyone the story regarding Mrs. Fermoy. As I have stated. . . I am both fair and honest. Until such a time that DNA advances to where a clearcut answer is available. . .. . then it is better to preserve and err then not to preserve and err.
I find the Wee Gaelic topic to be interesting, as there was a person from Canada involved in all of that. This person, according to her, actually purchased Mrs. Fermoy, and could not get her across the border from a faulty vaccine test. ( As I understand it. This person did buy other animals from that herd and take them to Canada. One of them was collected and semen sold for breeding. If this person who assigns great knowledge and experience to self, did that and had questions about the herd. . . . . . would that be ethical?
For my part, I have explored the situation in depth. I have tried to find connecting animals to collect DNA. There are none. Without a definitive answer, as I previously stated. . . . it is better to err on the side of preservation than to err by not preserving. It is only a financial loss if science proves the error in the future. . . . . it is a tremendous genetic loss if science proves the preservation effort worthy.
LOL! I am a kook though I think I prefer to be called eccentric. Sort of matches my age. I do have an agenda. Save the original Dexter horned bloodlines from extinction. You remind me of another person who used to use generalized statements like, " three different scientists said this", but would never name the scientists. It is impossible to remove ALL outcrossed genes from a bloodline in four breedings. Impossible. This is the rules in the world of cattleman and NOT all cattleman believe this nonsense. Science that has any credibility knows better.
You really have your knickers in knots. I think I know why. LOL. I tell anyone with an interest ALL versions. I believe in encouraging people to go find answers for themselves. Isn't that how it oughta be?
That is just excellent advice! History will show what a tragedy was visited on a unique and special little breed of rare horned cattle, especially in a country where outcrossing has NEVER been permitted. To wipe out a herd so unique and rare was just plain ignorance. . . . although gossip has it . . .. there was purposeful spite involved. That a leadership voted not, and then with a complete lack of guts caved and permitted one member to dictate such a disastrous outcome will be discussed in the future. . . . . and never in a positive way. History never forgives cowards or opportunists who cause calamity.
Not playing your game. Seems to me YOU seem to know an awful lot about that test. Why don't YOU post it for everyone. LOL LOL LOL
Still cannot change the fact SP is a ........GRADE BULL. Horns or polled. Still a GRADE bull. Thousands of wonderful grade BULLS go through sale barns daily. What we can pray they do NOT do is get snuck into a RARE minor breed and change heritage forever. If this was perfectly acceptable. . . . why doesn't the Kerry breed have polled? Or the Randal linebacks? BECAUSE they have breeders who are protecting the rarity of those breeds. And so do the Dexters! Hooray!
Bullshit. You don't want MY standards because they would get in your way. Doing the RIGHT thing is hard work.
|
|
|
Post by teatpuller11 on Oct 16, 2017 16:56:09 GMT
Judy, Issue unchanged. You did not arrange either test. You do not own the results of either test. You know the results of both tests. Why harp on the first test to discredit results when you know the second test results, with no genetic relationship, were the same: no difference in dna between platinum and traditional Dexters. No game, no hypothesis, nothing to do with who publishes what, just credible science from your lab of choice. You bring up several examples of incorrect science. Is this a red herring or are you claiming UCD is wrong, and their tests should not be taken as valid? Back to the question: why pretend you don't know the results of the second test which show Platinum has dna that's indistinguishable from traditional Dexters?
If it's better to preserve something and find out later it's an error than not protect it and find out later it was of value, why continue to continue to accept Fermoy, from a farm known to have two other wild red breeds kept in the same field and bad paperwork, who brings a beef breed frame (), mediocre udder and wild red to the table; but continue to question Saturn, from a farm with only Dexters and good farming practices (and a plausible explanation), who brings yield, short cannon bones, small stature, great conformation and superb udders to the table? In the former case, the story has a low credibility rating and not much in the way of beneficial traits to the breed, while in the latter, the story has high credibility rating and brings a great deal of beneficial traits to the breed. Discrepancies like this in your 'acceptance' does nothing for your credibility. Perhaps you'd like to explain for those of us who don't understand. Is this your idea of 'doing it right'?
|
|
|
Post by jamshundred on Oct 16, 2017 20:24:38 GMT
Response to Teatpuller:
You are absolutely correct. The issue is unchanged and will never change. A GRADE bull has wiped out the horned bloodlines of a rare minor breed. L O Friggin' L. Me? Harp on the test? I have NEVER brought up this test! I know this test has NO meaning, why on earth would I harp on it. First Adams published it like it was some pronouncement from God. She knows this bull is outcrossed so all her commentary is disingenuous. Then Kirk takes the mantLE and what seems like every other day tries to convince any doubting thomas who doesn't know the facts this is a "pure" bull. The "harper" is your friend. No difference in DNA? Surely you jest! Dexter cattle are a rare horned minor breed. Well, were. Until opportunists threatened and coerced a GRADE bull into the American herd for their own interests, agenda, spite, and financial gain. The second test CANNOT show what YOU say it does because Dr. Penedo of the UCD Veterinary Genetics laboratory would be honor bound to say he does not. . . . .. because he doesn't.
I have no proof of your allegations. And. . . if your allegations are true. . .. . how are they any different from the animals on Anthony Bauer or John Potter's farm? Do you now wish to declare their breeding programs problematic? If not. . . why the lack of consistency? Did you advise the person who collected and sold semen from the Wee Gaelic herd the bull collected was from a herd with the problems you describe and make an attempt to discourage the collection? Many Dexter owners keep animals of other breeds. There is NO discrepancy in MY credibility. My position has always been the same. UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE. . . . THE PEDIGREE STANDS. That has always been my position, remains my position. It has never differed at any time. In the case of Saltaire Platinum, the pedigree that is published online is in error. Simple as that. It should be corrected. It has been acknowledged by all involved and all interested parties to be in error. Correct it!
The difference in me and you? I try to find the truth of gossip and correct it. Where there are known errors I work diligently to collect evidence and information to offer proof for correction. I've spent hours and hours and no small amount of my own money to try and straigten out the glaring pedigree errors of the Rainbow Hills herd. . .. . . caused by an association that tried to be helpful but didn't make the effort to do it right. Those problems could have been resolved with only the slightest effort and cooperation. They may yet be as I have DNA from most of the animals that were living around the end of the first decade of this century. I don't accept gossip as the answer. I search for data to prove or disprove it and I am the only one I know who actively devotes their time and money to do so, so having to deal with accusations and insinuations from bottom feeders gets old when it is just the politics of destruction that is the norm in our pathetic society today. YOU know the truth. I know the truth. I've never set out to deceive. EVER! Match that vow.
|
|
|
Post by teatpuller11 on Oct 17, 2017 0:30:12 GMT
Bringing up other animals doesn't let you off the hook to provide answers for the issues raised. Or maybe it does? Easier when cornered to point fingers elsewhere than deal with your own problems. If you want to go there, prove to me that the traditional animals are as papered...if you go as papered, then why are you trying to fix Rainbow Hills? Or Golden Oak? or...
And, according to Lakeport, none of this matters because Dexter owners are all so sneaky and underhanded and dishonest you can't trust them to send in blood or hair from the right animal so the test results don't count anyway.
Still waiting for answers.
|
|
|
Post by lakeportfarms on Oct 17, 2017 1:07:06 GMT
And, according to Lakeport, none of this matters because Dexter owners are all so sneaky and underhanded and dishonest you can't trust them to send in blood or hair from the right animal so the test results don't count anyway. I didn't say all are so sneaky. Prior to the introduction of polled, if a Dexter cow popped out a polled calf, then it was a pretty good chance that another polled breed was involved in the breeding and the calf was worthless as a registered Dexter. Following the introduction of polled, the calf was worth considerably more money and sold more easily, even if it was the same scenario as before polled came into the picture.
|
|
|
Post by jamshundred on Oct 17, 2017 12:13:18 GMT
What answers do you seek that you already do not have? None. Bringing up other herds that operated the same as the one you denounced was to point out hypocrisy. I do not have to prove to you anything.....who are you anyway that you feel entitled?
Golden Oak, in my opinion, was “managed” by a serial strategist. The scientist himself admitted to me it was based on one sample and was iffy. UCD requires 10samples to build a profile. There is a bull that is one sample short and ADCA will not register. It is all in who you know or what can be gained. A new “friend” with a direct track into the inner circle of PDCA is probably a gain. When leadership registers three animals to the same. Ow in the same year and they were not triplets born on the same day, then attempts to “save” a herd did more harm than good. Why Not fix glaring errors if possible. The controversies exist because of leadership taking short cuts or quick fixes instead of doing things right.
|
|
|
Post by jamshundred on Oct 17, 2017 12:14:57 GMT
What answers do you seek that you already do not have? None. Bringing up other herds that operated the same as the one you denounced was to point out hypocrisy. I do not have to prove to you anything.....who are you anyway that you feel entitled? Golden Oak, in my opinion, was “managed” by a serial strategist. The scientist himself admitted to me it was based on one sample and was iffy. UCD requires 10samples to build a profile. There is a bull that is one sample short and ADCA will not register. It is all in who you know or what can be gained. A new “friend” with a direct track into the inner circle of PDCA is probably a gain. When leadership registers three animals to the same cow in the same year and they were not triplets born on the same day, their attempts to “save” a herd did more harm than good. Why Not fix glaring errors if possible. The controversies exist because of leadership taking short cuts or quick fixes instead of doing things right.
|
|
|
Post by cascade on Oct 17, 2017 15:27:41 GMT
I have 100% pure Icelandic Sheep on my farm. They come from 100% pure animals and semen imported from Iceland. Icelandic Sheep are a very pure breed because they lived on the island of Iceland for 1000 years with no other sheep allowed to be imported. When the Icelandic Sheep herdbooks were started in this past century, they started with very pure Icelandic Sheep.
Dexters are a completely different story. Dexters are a recently invented breed, invented in the late 1800's and early 1900's. Dexters were created by rounding up any compact cattle of any breed. The herdbooks remained open until around 1920. When Dexters were originally imported to America mostly in the 1910-1920 decade, they imported a mish-mash of impure genetics.
Worrying about a drop of "non-Dexter" blood getting into Dexters 40 or 50 years ago, is like worrying about a bit of carrot, falling into your mixed vegetable stew.
|
|
|
Post by jamshundred on Oct 17, 2017 16:46:17 GMT
Saltaire Platinum . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . GRADE bull is not 40-50 years ago. Not even 30 years ago. To bring a GRADE bull into the US herd where upgrading was never permitted, into a HORNED minor breed, small in number. .. . . . . . need I remind you that in a century he was only the . . . . 6504th Dexter to ever be registered in the American herd, and those numbers included the Canadian herd. Good heavens, can you not see the travesty visited on the ONLY preserved original bloodlines in the world? The ignorance and the lack of leadership is beyond fathomable. But when you consider that there was a statement made at a meeting of leadership promising to destroy the purity in the American herd. . .. . . . than spite is added to ignorance and lack of leadership.
Kirk, IF it were the purity in those Icelandic sheep whose purity you are so proud of it, what would you think then? What if one of those breeders snuck in an outcrossed animal which you didn't know about for a couple decades.
We will save what we can, and in 20-30-40 years. .. . . . . . there will be breeders as proud of the Dexter lines that have been saved as you are of the Icelandic ones. It is a darn shame you can't see there is no difference.
|
|
|
Post by cascade on Oct 17, 2017 20:10:04 GMT
Saltaire Platinum himself is a DNA Verified Purebred Dexter bull, but like most every Dexter, he may have had some blank spots on his pedigree 50 or 60 or 70 years ago.
Just like Parndon Bullfinch, we don't know if the old blank spots far back on Platinum's, nor Pardon Bullfinch's pedigree are purebred Dexters or not. No other breeds were recorded. In the case of Platinum, his DNA tests suggest that any blank spots on his pedigree were purebred Dexter.
PS. You "preservationists" claim to be saving "pure" Dexters, but when I research your pedigrees, they are full of holes.
|
|
|
Post by teatpuller11 on Oct 17, 2017 23:40:12 GMT
Cascade, I think SP does have a recorded cross quite a way back. Maybe as Judy says Piella was questionable, but according to the ADCA pedigree system, there's all sorts of Parndon in him as well. From that last fact alone, according to the English breeders, his paper pedigree is probably wrong. However, there are other animals in his pedigree that Judy loves, including Sylvan Ebony, so he can't be ALL bad.
I don't know where to look, but didn't the ADCA require any polled animal not credited to Platinum to be dna tested? I'm sure that was in old registration requirements. Does that still apply?
I wonder if the reason the second test owner won't make the results public is that he or she wanted Platinum to prove a horrible cross and when the test showed he was just like any other traditional dexter, the decision was made to not publish the result???
Judy is still avoiding the question. Why work off the first test when the second test says it all? It looks like science trumps paperwork, doesn't it? Why not admit it? Are we back to selective reasoning and personally driven agendas?
I think I understand where Judy is coming from, and saving old lines is commendable. What's not is covering up science because it doesn't support the agenda. I've seen somewhere that the old secretary used to register anything, no questions asked. What does that do to the traditional pedigrees? Is this why Judy says she goes by the paper? And yet, she's also trying to correct paper. Is this having one opinion for one thing and another opinion for something else?
I'm all over it, Bill. Time to quit and make more carrot cake.
|
|
|
Post by lonecowhand on Oct 18, 2017 23:13:19 GMT
Sounds Delicious!
|
|
|
Post by lonecowhand on Oct 19, 2017 16:35:37 GMT
Back to the topic. Hans, how is the new old girl Inky handling the weather in Michigan? How long will you quarantine? How many days was their journey, and who was the shipper? I read with excitement that Whoopie gave you a heifer! Congrats to you and Sheril. Is it too early to call dibs on the Granddaughter?
|
|
|
Post by lakeportfarms on Oct 19, 2017 17:06:19 GMT
Bill, we've had some unseasonably warm and dry weather here, so she hasn't been stressed much as of yet. We had one day of cold rain, and they didn't like that much. We're due for a change in the weather pattern next week to cooler and wetter conditions, but hopefully they are already undergoing their acclimatization. We have them in their pasture for about 45 days or so, and we'll have the vet out during that time to make sure everybody is doing well. We had two steers hitch a ride, and they are in with our steers already. They had a three day trip to get here to Michigan. Our shipper is in Oklahoma so he stopped for a bit at his place on the way. But they all had their own stall space in his trailer, and the weather was fairly cool for the trip so that was a plus! We use a shipper named Joe Christian, who is very reasonable with his pricing, he has nice equipment with a mister and plumbed water in the trailer, and we can usually see where he is at because he sends general Facebook updates along the way. Whoopie is a stunning looking girl. Even though she's photogenic photos don't even do her justice. I remember a few years ago going to the fair with her, and a well known breeder was there with their current and prior year AGM champion mature cows. When the judge had them all in front of him, he said "Some very fine looking cows here, but one is clearly above all of the others" and he put his hand on Whoopie. Hehehe....I thought I saw daggers shooting out of certain eyes toward the judge and us. We can't take credit for her breeding, but we sure can take credit for somehow prying her out of the hands of her breeder as a young heifer Whoopie is not out of Traditional lines, but I sure wish I had a dozen or more of her, because she sure makes an impression on every visitor to our farm, and many of our other cows are pretty nice in their own right.
|
|
|
Post by lonecowhand on Oct 19, 2017 20:49:08 GMT
She looks like one of Lady Loders famous mini milkin' machines!
How tall (short!) is she?
|
|
|
Post by lakeportfarms on Oct 20, 2017 10:32:37 GMT
Whoopie was 36" at age 3, She's 38" now at age 8. She's mellowed out some now, when I pluck an apple off of the tree to give her a treat she doesn't snap it out of my hand and snort like she used to...lol One of these days I'll get around to fixing the steel trailer door that she sprung the hinges on as I was loading her to take her to the fair. I had to put Shadwell next to her so he crowded her enough to keep her from jumping around. That was fun, climbing into the small stock trailer right along with the bull with the horns, and then trying to squeeze out between them so I could get out the back myself. We earned that win at the fair! What was surprising to us is that Whoopie was extremely well behaved at the fair, and she stood tied for over a week with almost no problem at all. She's all bark and no bite.
|
|
|
Post by karenp on Oct 21, 2017 12:04:00 GMT
Speaking of veering, I think what needs to be said is: 1.While Judy does not own any 'purity' test, she has the results of two, the first used random Dexters as comparison which included some of Platinums' offspring, allowing her to claim the result is invalid because it compares him to some of his offspring; the second used only Dexters that Judy considers 'traditional'; these results mirror those of the first, which it appears she would prefer to ignore as it kills her theory of non-Dexter-ness or grade status. 2.Judy accepts as gospel-true the paperwork of owners in the past, where there is no written evidence of misregistration, if it suits her. If it doesn't suit her, then negative gossip prevails and the entire herd in question becomes suspect and unacceptable. 3.with one exception, the entire world accepts that some outcrossing with the result bred back multiple times into the chosen breed is considered 'pure' under known, accepted genetic terms. This is because there are precious few genes not common to all bovines, so once human selection has had its way, you are left with about 99% of the genes held in common among all bovines, and then those precious few genes used to distinguish one breed from another. The exception is Judy under her various guises and her small group (Donna, Bill, Hans, Gene, Mike, sometimes Karen). For them, at least in public, 'purity' is customized as coming from (a) original imports of animals ranging from 1905-15 birthdates, (b) their offspring with no other introduced later imports, (c) Woodmagic genetics, (d) animals of suspect origin that Judy has decided she wants to include and therefore accepts the gossip as valid. What is NOT included is animals of suspect origin that Judy had decided she does not want to include and therefore does not accept the gossip as valid; and modern imports that have any outcrossing in their pedigrees back to 1900. A search of the internet provides the following info: under random breeding selection within a breed, it takes 27 generations statistically to produce an animal that has zero genes left from the outcross. With directed breeding selection within a breed, it takes five generations statistically to produce an animal that may have some of the common genes left from the outcross, but none of the genes that are specific to the outcross breed. These include hair type and length, horns and horn shape, excessive yield traits, size, and white markings. It is because any genes left over from the outcross are the same genes as already in the Dexter breed and so are not unique. I support Judy's project, but do not support the manner in which she trashes every animal other than those she SELECTIVELY chooses. It's that non-objective process that diminishes her work, along with producing non-standard definitions in order to artificially create something special out of a loose group of Dexters with unproven backgrounds. By focusing on not having permission to publish the results of the second purity test for Platinum, she directs attention away from herself having the knowledge of the results of both tests. Judy seems to think this allows her to pretend the second test does not exist, and certainly to ignore the outcome: both tests produced the same result. Either both tests were flawed, or Platinum's dna is no different from the accepted combination of genes found in traditional Dexters. Mrs. Netti: she's just pulling your chain. I assume you meant it as an insult, but thank you anyway. It is an honor to be included with that group even if it is only sometimes.
|
|