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Post by hillnvalley on Mar 9, 2018 14:11:23 GMT
I read over at the other Dexter proboards and found this thread. The conversation makes me appreciate all that Legacy is doing to create standards and separations between the different "types" of dexters. If people choose in the future to turn registries into an allowed upgraded registry (like red Angus for instance)than those of us who want to preserve the Dexter still can. Thank you to all of you involved! dextercattle.proboards.com/thread/4302/bull-calf-opinions |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2018 14:52:46 GMT
I suspect there will continue to have more upgraded imports brought in. As people seek to change the Dexter(improve as they call it). People never appreciate what they have until it is gone.
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Post by hillnvalley on Mar 9, 2018 23:36:33 GMT
What I think is most important is that people know what they are buying when they purchase a registered Dexter. There a many registries for different types of cattle or goats that are upfront about "upbreeding" and have the information identified so there is no confusion. Then a buyer has full disclosure to make the choice what they want to invest in.
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Post by cascade on Mar 10, 2018 3:22:07 GMT
1. 100% of today's Dexters have upgraded imports in their backgrounds. None of today's Dexters have complete pedigrees back to Dublin Herdbook #1
2. Even the purest of pure breeds can change drastically over time due to genetic drift and mutations and selection decisions.
3. The only way to maintain a breed in its traditional form, is for breeders to select toward a traditional breed standard, generation after generation.
4. Legacy does a worse than terrible job of promoting the old 1900 traditional breed standard. Legacy labels many animals as "traditional" even though they DON'T meet the old traditional standard. Also, Legacy claims that some animals that perfectly meet the old traditional standard, aren't traditional.
5. If Legacy wanted to truly help maintain Dexters in their traditional form, they would encourage breeders to make breeding selection decisions so that their herds reliably throw offspring that ALL meet the 1900 Traditional Breed Standard and also encourage breeders to use low-tech management methods available in the late 1800's. Low-tech methods help maintain traditional hardiness traits.
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Post by cascade on Mar 10, 2018 3:37:47 GMT
Here's the traditional Dexter breed standard published in 1900. Notice it says 100% of Dexters should have short legs, 100% should be thickly constructed, 100% of bulls should be 900 pounds or less. No brown (dun) colored animals allowed.
1900 Dexter Breed Standard:
1. The Dexter is essentially both a milk-producing and a beef making breed, and both these points should, in judging, be taken Into consideration.
2. Colour.--Bulls.-Whole black or whole red (the two colours being of equal merit). A little white on organs of generation not to disqualify an animal which answers all other essentials of this standard description.
Cows.-Whole black or whole red (the two colours being of equal merit). Black with white on the udder, or red with white on bag. The extension of the white of the udder slightly along the inside of flank or under side of the belly, or a little white on end of tail, shall not be held to disqualify an animal which answers all other essentials of this standard description. .
3. Head AND Neck.--Head short and broad, with great width between the eyes, and tapering gracefully towards muzzle, which should be large, with wide distended nostrils. Eyes bright, prominent, and of a kind and placid expression.
Neck short, deep and thick, and well set into the shoulders, which, when viewed in front, should be wide, showing thickness through the heart, the breast coming well forward.
Horns.-These should be short and moderately thick, springing well from the head, with an inward and slightly upward curve.
4. Body.--Shoulders of medium thickness, full and well filled in behind, hips wide, quarters thick and deep and well sprung, flat and wide across loins, well ribbed up, straight underline, udder well forward, and broad behind with well placed teats of moderate size, legs short (especially from knee to fetlock), strong, and well placed under body, which should be as close to the ground as possible. Tail well set on and level 'with back.
5. Skin.--The skin should be soft and mellow, and handle well, not too thin, hair fine, plentiful and silky.
6. Dexter Bulls should not exceed 900 Lbs., live weight, when in breeding condition.
Dexter Cows should not exceed 800 Lbs., live weight, when in breeding condition.
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Post by hillnvalley on Mar 10, 2018 19:50:07 GMT
Cascade,
I've read enough back posts on this forum to know where your heading with your comments. I have gleened a lot from both sides of this issue.
I'd also like to say I appreciate your goals to have hardy dexters that don't require high maintenance and constant medications with a compact height and good disposition. Considering most all dexters being bought and sold are not traditional or legacy, I think you have nothing to worry about when it comes to a much smaller selection of people who choose to segregate a certain line of dexters to raise.
You make the point that all Dexters have gaps in there lineage. I'm sure no honest person will dispute that once they look at the pedigrees. But you have made the claim that Bullfinch is not all Dexter( in past posts). I'm more than willing to hear the opposition if it's grounded in facts. Do you or anyone else have anything in writing to prove this information or are we running off of rumors? Or at the very least multiple first hand witnesses. I am an objective person and believe with out opposition, it's difficult to uncover truth, so in no wise am I picking an argument, just looking for truth.
I also agree that dexters were rounded up in Ireland and that what was available there was what dexters are. But I highly doubt part zebus or Buffalo were in the mix. In our modern times many breeds are composite animals. Modern man has the ability through AI to mix in any breed of cattle from any of the corners of the earth. Then after "selection" (as you promote as the way to get traditional dexters) we can create "dexters" that could be any type of cattle. This is why I appreciate legacy's endevour , and any other cattle registries that are trying to keep our traditional breeds alive. You may believe all cattle originated from Aurocs, but to me that opinion is just as flawed as all men originating from monkeys or any other original ancestry. There is absolutely no valid proof of either "scientific claim" (by the way Science is supposed to be defined as...the state or fact of knowledge). Much of science if based on educated guesses, nothing more.
Everyone has a different reason for wanting to preserve our past heritage breeds, but if someone doesn't draw a line somewhere they will be lost, for what man believes is improvement. But if we hybridize everything than those who use hybrid vigor to get an initial increase will be left with a lot of burnt out hybrids that don't multiple true.
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Post by cascade on Mar 10, 2018 23:55:28 GMT
All Dexters started as non-Dexters in the late 1800's and early 1900's, when the inventors of the Dexter breed gathered up any animals of any breed, that met the Dexter standard. Up until nearly 1920, if an animal of any breed met the Dexter breed description, it was allowed into the registry. You could enter any animal of any breed in a "Dexter" show, and if it could win a ribbon, then they let it in the registry.
I believe it wasn't until the 1920's that they finally mostly closed the herdbooks. Dexters started out with a little of this and that in their backgrounds.
All Dexters have tons of non-Dexter genetics in their backgrounds up until the 1920's.
Additionally, if you search Dexter pedigrees in the 40's and 50's and 60's you will find some occasional holes in the pedigrees. Those holes could be some other breed, or they could be unregistered Dexters, or they could be unknown registered Dexters.
In the case of both Parndon Bullfinch and Saltaire Platinum, there are some holes in the old pedigree that have unknown animals. In both cases, those unknown animals could be some other breed, or they could be unregistered (unknown) Dexters. We will never know for certain.
It really doesn't matter. Dexters already have scores of other breeds' genetics in their backgrounds, if a little of something entered in the 40's or 50's or 60's it has no effect, as long as breeders continued to select toward the Dexter standard.
Dexters started as a mishmash of other genetics, and became "Purebred Dexter" by continued selection toward a documented standard.
Today, we can keep Dexters "Traditional" by continued selection toward the traditional standard, and using traditional low-tech methods to raise them.
No Dexters have proven perfect pedigrees, so there is no point focusing on old holes in pedigrees.
PS.
The purest old Dexter's are likely a blend of genetics something like this:
40% Traditional Pure Kerry
25% Devon
10% Shorthorn
5% Irish Moiled (polled)
5% Ayrshire
5% Guernsey/Jersey
5% Angus
5% Other
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Post by hillnvalley on Mar 12, 2018 1:41:56 GMT
The vantage point that dexters originally started from gathered cattle from the hills of Ireland where you can't insure their purity, there for we may as well not worry about crossing them now doesn't consider what that would equate to in the end.
First for those who got into dexters for hardiness, they may become let down if people allow outcrossing with jersey cattle who aren't known for being cold hardy and tend to have many issues such as milk fever. Now the claim that dexters are hardy would be unclaimed.
How about the claim that dexters are fertile and easy calvers. Cross them with high birth weight cattle ( like the issues herferds were having birthing) and now you have small cows who don't calve well.
How about fertility? Well there are many crosses that create offspring that decrease fertility or next to make it impossible. Some of the new composite breeds have had to be carefully selected so they could get viable offspring other wise if not done right sterility can be an issue.
If people don't shut the door on outcrossing the great attributes of this little Irish cow will be lost regardless if one believes it to be composite or not. Here is a quote...
"Th e orig in o f the Dex t e r is quite o b scure . Th e c ommon
assumption has been that this breed is . a cross between the Kerry
and some o ther breed , perhaps the Devon . Th e opinion ex
pressed by Pr o fesso r James Wilson is that this is a short
-
legged
o ffshoot from the Kerry , due to crossing with the Devon . "
Okay so the Devon must be the justification for opening the door to having an undocumented ugraded registry. There is way too much commonality with dexters and Devons for me to concern myself with this statement, makes sense they are related perhaps originally. Of course I wouldn't cross them now and register the offspring as a pure blood Dexter, that would be unethical to do since people have spent years of their life selecting and preserving the small Dexter cow. If people want to cross animals and then record them as grades fine, but their should be full disclosure of what they are. Cosider the American Dairy goat registry standards. If I were to register a grade Nubian doe( the Nubian is a well documented old cross) And "upbreed" it, eventually it can become a American Nubian doe, BUT never a registered Pure bred Nubian. That's what I expect out of Dexter registies, Full disclosure. Then buyers can decide if all they want is a recorded production animal that will have similar attributes to the original or the actual heritage breed.
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Post by cascade on Mar 12, 2018 4:08:46 GMT
I raise purebred registered Icelandic Sheep. Icelandic Sheep have been living isolated on the island of Iceland for 1000 years, with no other sheep allowed on the island... Icelandic people aren't allowed to import other breeds to Iceland. I can trace every sheep on my farm, back to Iceland on their pedigrees. I have 100% documented full-blood registered Icelandic Sheep. There is an absolute unarguable definition of "full-blood" in Icelandic Sheep.
That is the opposite of how it works with Dexters. All Dexters have colorful and questionable backgrounds. Ireland was swimming in all sorts of imported cattle breeds in the 1800's. Not a single Dexter can be entirely traced back to herdbook #1 in Ireland. All pedigrees are full of holes. Those "questionable" backgrounds have helped form the wonderful Dexter breed, but have left us without a concept of "full blood"
I'm one of very few substantial long-time Dexter breeders who have only had purebred registered Dexter Cattle on our farm with NO other breeds allowed since day-one. I'm definitely against cross-breeding. Just because Dexters have a colorful past, doesn't mean that I support any new cross breeding.
While nobody can show documentation that they have any documented "full-blood" Dexters, they could make documented claims like.. "this Dexter has a complete pedigree back to 1930"... Or "this Dexter has a complete pedigree back to 1943" .... Most all Dexters have some big holes in their pedigrees in the 1940's
Some people want to claim that old holes in other people's pedigrees are a problem, but the old holes in their own pedigrees are ok.
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Post by WVCaity on Mar 12, 2018 13:16:25 GMT
I have been watching proboards for a very long time; educating myself and forming my own opinions. I often argue with posts, but up until now I've only done so in the safe, quiet quarters of my own mind. No more. Today, I must speak!
Cascade, you are most definitely mistaken. I won't argue about the origin of the Dexter breed or how it's "inventors" established the breed standard. Nor will I input my opinion on said breed standard, because we all breed to the best of our abilities and I think it's safe to say that most of us are also trying to breed Dexters that fit into a profitable niche, at least to some extent. BUT that doesn't make it okay to breed in a Jersey and call it a Dexter with excellent milklines (or upgrade with Angus and call it improved Dexter beef). The "holes" and misinformation in the 40's, 50's, and 60's MOST CERTAINLY MATTER! And it deserves the attention of every Dexter breeder. These holes can only exist for one of two reasons: 1- the registry was too doless (or possibly incompetent) to accurately document pedigrees, despite being paid by the breeders to do so. Or 2 - breeders were permitted to "upgrade" under the table. Neither of these scenarios is acceptable. Furthermore, turning a blind eye to fraudulent behavior only leads to more fraudulent behavior... if you need proof of that, just turn on the news.
It is far too late to fix the problem. But Dexter owners deserve both an explanation and an apology!
Thank you Legacy, for giving us a better registry!
Caitlin
*I am a proud LEGACY Dexter lover in West Virginia, breeding for both beef and A2 milk production. I manage my herd of Traditional Dexters and my parent's herd of Legacy and Traditional Dexters.
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Post by hillnvalley on Mar 12, 2018 13:34:28 GMT
If one considers the history of Ireland in general, consider Irish people are a genetic melting pot of Celtic gailic,brithonic ,Vikings ect. That does not mean they are not Irish. That means that's the genetic make up of an Irish person. Consider the extreme outcrossing that formed a Santa Gertrudis Bull, if the same out crossing was done to the Irish, would they still be considered Irish or would it forever change the culture and people.
"Breeding & Artificial Insemination
A Santa Gertrudis bull
In 1940, the Bureau of Animal Industry registered an entirely new kind of animal – the Santa Gertrudis breed of cattle. The event was significant because it lead to a rash of new breeds, despite the fact cattle breeding was still a process of trial and error. The discovery of DNA was still 13 years in the future, and so cattle breeders put different pure breeds with desirable traits together and hoped for the best. What they achieved was remarkable.
The Santa Gertrudis was a good example of the state of the art. As early as 1910, the massive King Ranch in Texas was interested in using Brahman cattle to improve the performance of range cattle that made up most of their herds. So, they began crossing Brahman bulls with red Shorthorn cows. Ten years later, by genetic chance, they got a bull they named Monkey. When he was bred to Shorthorns, his progeny carried his characteristics. They "bred true." Folks on the King Ranch didn't know it yet, but all of the succeeding generations carried Monkey's genes."
As you can see that AI was still relatively new in the 40s. A lot more can be changed through AI quickly. A lot of damage and rapid change could be made. Before 1968 there was no AI options for dexters. After that opens the flood gates. If ANY of these bull are not what dexters were previously they can dramatically change the Dexter bred and quickly snuff out thir characteristics. If your not for outcrossing, then you and I agree and should support Legacy. People can debate all day about the roots of the Irish Dexter, but I'm for supporting preserving what it has been.
"The first Dexter bull in the United States collected for artificial insemination (A.I.) was
Parndon Bullfinch and semen was made available to Dexter breeders in 1968.
Since that
time, more than 50 Dexter bulls have been collected in the United States and made
available to Dexter breeders. In 1994, Fred Chesterley (Llanfair Herd) imported semen from
England from a registered polled Dexter bull, Saltaire Platinum. Mr. Chesterley used Saltaire
Platinum in his own breeding program and also made this semen available to other Dexter
breeders that wanted to breed polled Dexters in the United States."
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 12, 2018 15:30:27 GMT
It is a dark mark on the leadership of the Dexter breed and on the mainstream breeders who not only deny the purity in their breed, but work against the preservation of these animals. This is the ONLY breed where I am aware that the earliest bloodlines/rarity are not protected and preserved. ADCA has consistently worked against Legacy, and to this very day, the word PRESERVATION has never appeared on the pages of anything ADCA ever published. That is and will always be the standard bearer of any belief they have a concern for this breed or it's owners. ADCA has single-handedly encouraged, supported, and promoted the upgraded polled cattle to the detriment of every horned Dexter and horned breeder in America. And it was done with deceit. Even if you with to give the leadership a bit of room called ignornance, or mal-feasance, they were told in 2005 there was recorded outcrossing in Saltaire Platinum and they denied it and villified the messenger(s) until 2014 when they were forced to admit it, albeit, a watered down version. The English have acknowledge the pedigree of Saltaire Platinum is published online in error. This was discussed in an annual meeting and it was agreed the corrections were due and were to be made. However, the focus since then has been on political and financial issues within their Society. Eventually, this will be done, for it is the right and correct thing.
Legacy has always, without any deviation strived to be honest and forthright. That is unquestionable. Any information that is available to one is available to all. This is obvious by reading the various chat groups across the years.
The Legacy animals have complete pedigrees to foundation in America, and according to professor Plumb to their ancestors in Ireland. There has been considerable time and expense involved in the dominant lines designated Legacy to prove lineage.
The fact that there is a second category in the preservation effort is based on both the openness and honesty of the effort. That there is a pedigree that is missing parentage has never been denied, and has always been discussed. There is only one animal that seperates traditional from Legacy. . . . Parndon Bullfinch. The interesting thing for me is that the English were always focused on the recorded grandsire's purity, whereas the true issue in the pedigree, which dates to the 40's is not considered an issue for the English. In fact, the first collected bull in the original population project in England shares the same ancestor that drops Parndon Bullfinch from the Legacy category to the Traditional category.
It IS abundantly important to preserve the early bloodlines and to preserve the DWARF Dexter. The dwarf traits MUST be retained in the breed for it is these traits that define the Dexter.
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Post by cascade on Mar 12, 2018 17:50:55 GMT
The "holes" and misinformation in the 40's, 50's, and 60's MOST CERTAINLY MATTER! And it deserves the attention of every Dexter breeder. I am a proud LEGACY Dexter lover in West Virginia, breeding for both beef and A2 milk production. I manage my herd of Traditional Dexters and my parent's herd of Legacy and Traditional Dexters. My very purebred Dexter herd has some old holes in their pedigrees back in the 30's, 40's, 50's and 60's. Your Dexter herd (and everyone else's too) also have some old holes in that same time period. (I'll be happy to point them out if you don't know where they are). Almost all the folks who created those old holes are long dead. I don't know of anyone today who is suggesting that any crossing be allowed. In fact, the ADCA requires full parentage DNA testing to prevent crosses. If the old holes in your herd's pedigrees matter, what are you doing to address that ancient history? What is Legacy doing? PS. Do your animals meet every word of the Traditional Breed Standard, or do you ignore much of that standard like most of the Legacy people do? |
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Post by cascade on Mar 12, 2018 18:14:15 GMT
Legacy labels this giant, brown, hornless Dexter as "traditional"... Because the Legacy definition of "Traditional" is heavily flawed  Meanwhile, Legacy labels this Dexter as NOT Traditional. Legacy ignores the old traditional breed standard.  |
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Post by hillnvalley on Mar 12, 2018 19:41:05 GMT
Cascade said
"I don't know of anyone today who is suggesting that any crossing be allowed. In fact, the ADCA requires full parentage DNA testing to prevent crosses."
If one would of read the whole post, that I put in with a hyperlink, they could see that it is being discussed in the minds of Dexter owners. Just like the Us constitution has amendments in it ( because the people change), the registries are influenced by it's members opinions. I want to stand behind a registry that promotes the purity of dexters and sets that down in writing as a standard. Otherwise when people realize they have outcrossed animals in their registries they won't have much of a reason not to amend or tweak or find loop holes to meet there end goals(beefier , milkier ect. After all they are just muts anyways, Right.
As far as Icelandic sheep go, those pedigrees are only as valuable as the honesty of the people who filled out the forms especially now that there here in America. So you still have to put faith in the idea that the animals are pure bred. That's why I like the idea of a registry that cares and stands for the purity of their animals rather than creating a registry based off of people who would focus on holes in pedigrees and who guess about dexters original roots. They then decide they are muts anyway. So what's there to preserve?
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Post by WVCaity on Mar 12, 2018 20:44:03 GMT
To answer your question: I have more of a naturalist's perspective when it comes to my animals. I don't choose them - they choose me. With that being said, I don't usually find myself standing in a field full of polled Dexter's either. My 'forever baby bull' (you guessed it - he's chondro) found me a couple of weeks after my first milk cow was gifted to me. And most recently, a descendent of Woodmagic found her way to my farm when she was in need of a milkmaid. Obviously, my traditional herd has "holes" as you call them. I'll even be the first to tell you that the personalities and physical characteristics of my animals are far more important to me than lineal descent! But overall, we do our best to breed within the standards of the 1900's (that you posted above) - but then, I suppose you and I have different opinions of what is meant by "short legs". That's the problem with these standards and the primary reason why I don't waste my time arguing about them - you're opinion isn't any more wrong than mine is and there is no "opinion referee".
I think you might be missing the point, however. This thread was created to address the desires of some to allow upgrading. Why is it that man always thinks he can do better than God? Always fixing something that isn't broken...
Oh, I almost forgot about that ancient history: What I'm NOT doing is wasting my time with the ADCA. As a general rule, I do not associate with anyone or any organization that cannot take responsibilities for the mistakes of the past. And I most certainly don't give my money to them. Regardless of how dead the problem is, they need to acknowledge that a problem existed.
I think I have answered all of your questions, possibly you could answer just one for me:
What's the real reason for your animosity toward Legacy? I know you can give me 100 reasons why Legacy is illegitimate, but it's obvious that you are far more invested on a personal level. I've been under the assumption that Legacy wouldn't give your modern horned Dexters the "traditional" designation you believe they deserve. Am I missing something else? If not, come toward the light, Kirk! I had a modern horned cow visit my farm last summer and she wreaked havoc! I'd gladly help you find a traditional horned! Or maybe we should just agree to disagree. I was encouraged to preserve Legacy, but the fact remains that I fell in love with my Traditional's. I chose that downgrade, but am still able to recognize that not all Dexters are created equal. Nor should they be.
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Post by lonecowhand on Mar 12, 2018 21:27:13 GMT
Howdy, Hillnvalley! I'm glad you are here, and able to articulate your opinion so well. I personally appreciate the advocacy for keeping the Dexter as unchanged as is possible in these times.
As I'm sure you have read , most here share your views. Some, like Judy , work overtime to spread the word. Some spread other stuff!
The advocacy seems to be working in spite of the naysaying, in the last few years many folks who bred polled have recognized the uniqueness and virtues of the traditional horned Dexter, and are now making traditionals the focus of their breeding.
So Thanks!
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 12, 2018 21:41:41 GMT
Kirk, the above statement regarding a black horned cow in the above photo.
As you read through early writings regarding Dexters you will discover there is often comments regarding the value of using Dexter cattle for outcrossing with other breeds. ( Because they improved other breeds - and these discussions, because the Dexters were primarily dwarf cattle - most likely relate to the qualities the dwarf cattle brought to the cross). The first time I loaned a bull to an owner to cross with another breed, it was a Jersey cow and the bull was Noelly, the little dwarf that sired the well known bull, Brenn of Paradise). What a beautiful little heifer calf he sired. Tiny little Dexter-Jersey cross. She was sold to a gentleman who purchased Dexters from me, and he always called her "no-legs". She also had the first calf I ever helped to pull, when she was bred to a modern horned bull. "No-legs" was, in phenotype. . . . . the epitome of a Dexter cow. She definitely could have "passed". There was not an iota of Jersey detectable in that cow. Dexters are known to throw themselves in crosses. Well, heck, Saltaire Platinum, a grade bull is a perfect example of that assertion, now isn't he? So, because she looked like a Dexter, walked like a Dexter,
and mooed like a Dexter, does that mean she should have been registered as a Dexter or defined as a traditional Dexter? I have seen many cows that are products of outcrossing with Dexters, and those first generation calves, ( unless there is a Hereford in the mix) are very Dexterish.
The bull in the photo above is larger than I want to see Dexters, but . . . the truth is. . . . .you can get a good sized cow or bull and still keep the weight standard of 950 pounds. Lucifer males are known to get to be good sized bulls and the last one I took to the sale barn was a hefty dude! Both tall and heavy bodied. I was astonished as they weighed him to see he was under 850 pounds. The bull in the photo. . . . . . . he has been fed out for the show ring. He wouldn't look like that if he was wandering around in my pasture. I'd like to know his actual mature weight at the time of that photo.
You are showing the wrong photo anyway. You must have never seen a photo of Billy Bob. Now there's a BULL ! !
The pedigree has to be honored. If you track away from the pedigree and make rules for exceptions here and exceptions there. . . . . . you turn everything into a muddle. Exceptions are born. . . . . and those exceptions should be CULLED as it is the responsibility of the breeder to protect the breed. If they do not. . . . then we live with them. YOU complain about the Wieringa bull above and use him as a negative example to make your point, yet you have no problem breeding a herd from a GRADE bull, which represents the most egregious exception EVER!
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Post by cascade on Mar 12, 2018 21:43:22 GMT
In the link up top, it is focused on Australia. In Australia, they didn't have many options to import live Dexters. So they imported excellent purebred Dexter semen. They didn't have easy access to purebred Dexter females, so they used the Dexter semen on some related british breeds. They kept the most Dexter-like 50% Dexter heifers and used pure Dexter semen on those heifers, creating 75% Dexters, then they repeated the process until they had 99.9% pure Dexters. But if you understand how genetics work, they are as pure as any other Dexters, and in some cases, they are even MORE pure Dexter, because they were selected to meet the Dexter standards.
US ADCA only allows purebred Dexters out of purebred parents to be registered. So no upgrading is allowed.
The US ADCA will only allow animals to be imported that are purebred Dexter in the judgement of folks at the time of import. Parndon Bullfinch has pedigree problems, but the folks in the 1960's made a good-enough judgement call about his purity. Same thing happened with some 1950's imports that had some pedigree holes, but were judged to be pure enough.
All breeds including Icelandic Sheep and Dexters and Nubian goats that claim to have some animals that are more pure than others, have been subject to breeding mistakes and errors in the past. NOBODY can claim 100% guaranteed absolute purity except with full parentage testing back to herdbook #1. All pedigrees likely have some errors. No historical pedigrees can be 100% trusted.
The Legacy crowd bashes the old pedigree issues of other folks' animals, while sweeping their own old pedigree issues under the rug.
The only definition of "Traditional Dexter" that works, is a Dexter that meets the old traditional breed standard,and when bred on other similar Dexters, all offspring also meet the standard.
I find it interesting that the Legacy folks say we should follow the original old 1900 standard, but then they ignore that standard.
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Post by WVCaity on Mar 12, 2018 22:13:04 GMT
The only definition of "Traditional Dexter" that works, is a Dexter that meets the old traditional breed standard,and when bred on other similar Dexters, all offspring also meet the standard. I find it interesting that the Legacy folks say we should follow the original old 1900 standard, but then they ignore that standard. What do you propose as the solution? Does a photo need to be submitted with each registrant, alongside their DNA? Seems to me there is still room for controversy. Possibly Legacy should inspect each animal? Or more feasibly, insist all animals enter a show ring? Who decides what leg height is acceptable? How many Dexter's do you honestly believe will "make the cut"? And will there be enough left to repopulate? Your expectations are absurd. Legacy is certainly bringing awareness to the "breed standard" which is more than ADCA is doing. Would you not agree? Shoot... Legacy is the only reason DNA testing is even available. I'm fairly new into the Dexter world and even I can see that the ADCA has been trailing behind for quite some time. |
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Post by kaldakur on Mar 12, 2018 22:13:36 GMT
"Very few attempts have been made to "improve" the Icelandic sheep through the centuries with outside crossings. The few attempts that were made, resulted in disasters brought on by diseases brought in by the "new blood"."
Above quote is from OK State University page on Icelandic Sheep. I originally read about this somewhere else, but can't remember where. Icelandic Sheep in North America are not required to be DNA'd to be registered, and I know plenty of breeders that have other breeds also. Anyone with sheep knows how hard they are to contain, I'd be shocked to find the pedigrees of all the North American Icelandic sheep 100% accurate. It's unfortunate, but a realistic issue. Even if Iceland was absolutely 100% pure, it's not safe to assume any Icelandic sheep's pedigree in the US is 100% accurate. Mistakes happen. All we can do is make the best breeding decisions we can make and strive to emulate the breed standard (which in my book for Dexters is the original Dexter standard, but I don't want to start that debate either). If we know of an outcross, it's only right to avoid that line if you are trying to preserve a breed - any breed. Just my 2 cents worth.
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 12, 2018 22:29:45 GMT
I am calling you out as being knowingly disingenuous. *I* was discussing purity and various animals in this breed before you ever bought your first Dexter Kirk. *i* have been as forthright regarding preservation lines as those of imports. *I* went into the herdbooks and detailed publically information found there. How can you possibly suggest otherwise? "I" don't sweep anything under the rug. I DISPLAY it all in the online pedigrees on Legacy! And you know it
I even considered and discussed with others including the modern horned cows who are VERY typy in the preservation effort. . . . . but the problem with the bull dispositions in that line precluded it. You simply cannot encourage the breeding or preservation of a line that produces dangerous bulls. I thought and argued it was sex-linked but that seems not the case either so I am glad saner minds prevailed.
The ONLY definition of traditional Dexter that works is the one based on pedigree. You absolutely CANNOT call Dexters which descend from a GRADE animal born a mere two decades ago "traditional". ( I know you are doing it - but it is self-serving and misleading Kirk). I am pleased, ( and proud) that to date in the preservation effort, the focus has absolutely been on the breed and not on self-interest. There isn't a single person in this effort who can be accused of self-interest or personal gain. It's quite the opposite actually, but I DO hope that those who come behind us benefit from their commitment and effort. The Dexter breed in the US has singularly been wiped out by greed fueled by fad, and if the same occurs to the benefit of preservationists, I will be happy to see it. The original standard was: WEIGHT LIMIT 950 pounds. COLOR BLACK or RED. I don't know of anyone outside that limit other than those who own dun, and there is sufficient evidence to show that the duns of old were registered as RED. As a matter of fact, that WAS the case until 1970 or thereabouts.
First paragraph has me laughing. I. . . AM. . . . waiting for the day the white Dexter breeders decide they want their Dexters in the Dexter registries. THIS is EXACTLY the breeding program they follow, and it mirrors the breeding program in England known as the APPENDIX registry. ADCA has now registered several upgraded animals. The day will come when the genes hit the fan. Legal precedent is pretty obvious and ADCA won't have a legal leg to stand on. You will eat those words, " they are as pure as any other Dexters, and in some cases, they are even MORE pure. ( even though it isn't accurate).
Second paragraph is also in error. Whether it was error, mal-feasance, ignorance, or guile, Saltaire Platinum is NOT a purebred bull. HE is GRADE. DCS has acknowledged the pedigree error and we await correction. Another animal, Breoch Sultan did not meet the ADCA requirements for import and that he was accepted in the US herdbook in error was blamed on Chuck Daggett.
Third paragraph. What in the dickens does " in the judgement of folks at the time of import" mean? What folks? Who's God, so I'll know for future reference.
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Post by cascade on Mar 12, 2018 22:56:46 GMT
Many of my animals and their parentage have DNA parentage testing back to the 1990's, long before Legacy was around. We used Bovacan labs in Canada back then. Round Chimney Roly Poly is a 1950's Dexter bull who is on 99.9% of all Dexter pedigrees. He has 18 unknown animals on his five generation pedigree. He's almost certainly on your so-called "traditional" pedigrees.  |
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 12, 2018 23:42:46 GMT
So? You are being disingenous. This IS the issue with Parndon Bullfinch. It has been discussed, and discussed, and discussed. . . . . by ME! This is bull is in the pedigree of the original population bull, Elmwood Mackoy. I mentioned this earlier on this very thread I think. NO ONE has ever tried to hide this, and it IS this pedigree issue that divides Parndon Bullfinch from the Legacy category. Discussed and discussed over and over. So. . . . this is NO new revelation. The ISSUE is from the beginning of the 1940's or just before. The time of the bombing blitz of England when hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of bombs were rained from the sky. Limbury Fan the daughter of Freda was born in 1943. It is NOT a 1950's issue as you claim.
Here is info I've uncovered.
The owners of the Limbury herd were Mr. and Mrs. Clive. Captain H.A. Clive, which I have researched and found the H to stand for Henry. Limbury was an area around the "Hill House", a manor house where they lived in a very small town. I have spent hours and hours and hours researching this herd, and have a spread sheet of every animal born. I have searched newspapers for descendants to contact for information or for old paperwork or photos. I assume, because I have not found the proof as yet, that Captain Clive was injured in the war. I have only found mention so far of himself and his wife. The blitz of bombings by the Germans began in 1940 in London and other towns. Limbury area was about an hour from London. I have not found as yet Captain Clive as killed in the war, but I did find a mention in a newspaper where his wife was moving from "Hill House", no mention of himself, nor could I find anything about him after the war. Here is my assumption:
I believe that Freda is not the registered name of the cow. I think it was a "pet" name the wife likely called the cow. I make the assumption that everything went to the devil during those early years of the war, and record keeping of cows was spotty. I suspect of Mrs. Clive the same I suspect of Mrs. Thrower. . . neither were involved in the business of the Dexter herds, and if I am right and Captain Clive was either disabled or killed in the war, then Mrs. Clive, would have had to work to piece together the herd. Much like was done with Rainbow Hills at the sudden unexpected death of Jerry Starnes when he was the only person who knew his herd. I was told the English archives for that period are missing, so I couldn't locate original paperwork. I was also told there was no regular registrar doing that period. I am still working on this research as we speak. Just a couple of weeks ago I wrote to a minister in the vicinity to see if there were residents who may have remembered the Clive family or their cows and he wrote back to me, and remembered the name and was going to check to see if he could gather more info for me. I have written to historical societies , for the English are known to keep most records to see if I could gather information as well.
All things come to those who wait. I fully expect to find an answer some day. There seemed no concern of this line by major breeders of the time in England, contemporaneous to the time period so they knew something I have yet to discover. I will keep looking. The rules for registration at the time required parentage records so they exist. Just have yet to find those old records. They will turn up somewehre.
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Post by hillnvalley on Mar 13, 2018 0:36:40 GMT
Lonecowhand thanks for the welcome!
Kaldakur, you make my point precisely!
Cascade, I started this post to let everyone who is part of legacy know I appreciate their efforts. Now I'll thank you. All your objections on this proboards has helped me tremendously understand this situation in greater detail. Many of your objections caused me to dig deeper and decide where I stand on this matter. On the contrary I have come to an entirely different resolve than you have. I am looking for traditional Dexters now to start my traditional herd. I am taking my time though hoping to find just what I need, because I didn't take that time the first time around. So I too have only non traditional Dexters. So just as Caity said, come to the light😀.
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Post by cascade on Mar 13, 2018 1:27:23 GMT
I am looking for traditional Dexters now to start my traditional herd. I am taking my time though hoping to find just what I need, because I didn't take that time the first time around. Understand that your "Traditional" animals will all have holes in their pedigrees... I'll be happy to show you the holes. You started this thread with concerns that people are being wishy-washy with breed standards. I'm very supportive of people raising true traditional dexters that completely meet the 1900 standard (and all their offspring meet the standard too). 99% of breeders who use the Legacy definition of "Traditional" don't have traditional herds that entirely meet the 1900 Breed Standard. Most "Legacy" breeders nearly entirely ignore the 1900 Traditional Dexter Standard. If you are actually going to develop a herd of True Traditional Dexters (that all meet the Traditional Standard and are raised using traditional methods), I'll be a big fan, and I'll be cheering for you. I'll be happy to give you some feedback as to whether a Dexter is truly traditional or not... Please post photos, weights and measures and other information. |
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Post by lakeportfarms on Mar 13, 2018 2:01:19 GMT
I don't know of anyone today who is suggesting that any crossing be allowed. In fact, the ADCA requires full parentage DNA testing to prevent crosses. And here is why the push was on in 2015 (just 3 short years ago) to require DNA genotyping of heifers. First, the ADCA does NOT require parentage DNA testing to prevent crosses. It will be a dozen years and more before a major loophole is closed in the ADCA policy, because I could take any grade cow, breed her to a Dexter bull, and register the calf as a Dexter out of that bull and a pre-2016 cow that had a bull calf, or even one that was deceased. Until the year comes that there are no pre-2016 Dexters alive anymore, there will exist that loophole to bring in different breeds. Considering I have a 20 year old chondro carrier Dexter that has a young calf on her and is presently in with a bull to be bred for another calf early next year, somebody could go for a long time without having parent verified Dexters in their herd, or to sell to others. My opinion is that the polled Dexter breeders were aware of the ability to use other breeds such as Lowline Angus to increase the beef traits, fast growth, and assure homozygous polled calves, and pushed the female genotype requirement to stem the tide of decidedly non-Dexter looking additions to the registry. Too late! The damage has been done, and the Dexters of this type of breeding have infiltrated the pedigrees of hundreds, possibly even thousands, of herds around the country during the past 20 plus years, and probably even to this day. |
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Post by cascade on Mar 13, 2018 3:56:51 GMT
Tested Homozygous Polled Dexter Bulls with extensive parentage testing back to the 1990's have been around for a very long time. They are known to have superior udder genetics and beef genetics far exceeding Lowline Angus. It would be silly to put Angus in the mix. Here's one of my many well-tested purebred Homozygous Polled A2/A2 bulls. In this photo, he was just finishing breeding 38 girls in breeding season. His beef genetics and milk genetics test far superior to Lowline Angus. His grandmothers and great grandmothers have excellent udders. He is super friendly and he's tested free of chondrodysplasia (genetic cartilage disease).   Meanwhile here's a Legacy-labeled, massively beefy, giant "Traditional" Dexter (doesn't meet the traditional breed standard at all) |
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 14, 2018 12:25:48 GMT
Dexters were founded as a horned dwarf breed. It was the breed traits of the dwarf cattle, including their size and personality which endeared them and created the widespread relocation of nearly all of them from Ireland to England, with a few to the US and Canada.
I assume you have major issues with the SIZE part of the equation for over time you have repeatedly shown the photo of the Wieringa bull. I suppose the breeders must have really tweaked your animosity at some point so that you repeatedly drag that photo from discussion to discussion to scold them for the example they placed in the breed of which you certainly disagree. However, you never place a photo of a large polled animal on the chat groups with seeming the same intent to shame. Every single polled animal should be in your chat group offerings of photos. The greatest possible harm has been inflicted on the US herd by the import of this bull. Sure, a few folks have benefited greatly, yet the rarest herd of Dexters in the world has been decimated by a GRADE bull, and you never question the ramifications and impact of the lack of leadership which has denied a need for preservation of the rarest bloodlines, while promoting the offspring of a grade bull whose line is now represented in over 90% of the US herd. You have no consistency. You never comment or place a photo of Lucifer in your discussions. He was FIFTY inches tall when shot dead during a loco rage, numerous offspring have exhibited dangerous attacking behavior, his sire was documented as mean, and you always trot out the photo of the hefty bull Ned to make an example of breeder choice you find subpar. That bull has had little effect on the early bloodlines as he can most often be found in the polled descendants. Why are you not scolding those breeders for breeding him in the bloodlines you choose to preserve? Why do you waste so much time with nothingness?
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Post by lakeportfarms on Mar 14, 2018 13:43:27 GMT
I have a Ned daughter. She's 43" tall at 10 years of age, and I'm sure she was at least a couple of inches shorter 3 years of age. She's certainly grown since we purchased her at about 3 years old. Well within the Dexter size guidelines. Also, have you ever met Lee Wieringa in person? I bet if you put Lee in with one of your bulls, your bulls would look a lot larger than they do with that tall skinny bean pole guy that I've seen in the photos that you've posted.
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