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Post by WVCaity on Mar 19, 2018 21:59:03 GMT
I can corroborate...
At the arrival of my first traditional bull calf, I confided in Judy a desire to DISBUD, as I do with my goat kids for THEIR SAFETY (horned goats and woven wire is a recipe for disaster). Fortunately, she talked me out of it after insisting it was an unnecessary procedure. Her arguments AGAINST disbudding were unending! As someone who was intimidated by the horns in the beginning, I am now very thankful that I took Judy's advice. Not only is that intimidation long gone, but thanks to Judy's unending knowledge I am also aware that in an emergency situation, one flick to their very sensitive horn will send most Dexters cowering in the opposite direction.
It is one thing to argue tirelessly for your believes and opinions... it is something entirely different when you attack the integrity of a trustworthy person.
Caitlin
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 19, 2018 22:08:52 GMT
You KNOW that is not true. I have posted the comments from Professor Low from the early 1830's about the NEW BREED called DEXTERS a number of times, and just again commented on it yesterday. Prior to the last decade of the 1800's the Dexter cattle the house cows of the Irish small holders and peasants. After these small animals were gathered into a herd book, first in 1887 and continued with RDS in 1890, there were a few cattle traders who seem to have traveled across Ireland and gathered these cattle for sale. Before the end of the second decade of the 1900's there were few Dexters left in Ireland. and even the registry was ceased.
More nonsense - Professor Low details the development of the breed prior to the 1830's. The Dexter was a unique and functional animal with traits in one breed found here and there in others but not all in one. After they began to appear at agricultural fairs and sales and caught the eye of the gentry, they DID become quite popular. I used to think that was a negative. I've since changed my mind. While Dexters were in the hands of the wealthy in America, they were protected. It was not until the huge production sale of the Peerless herd they spread out into the hands of more common folk that their demise was actually sealed, for it was NOT the rich who wiped out the original Dexters. ( In America). It was common folk like YOU.
NO ONE knew in the 1900's the veterinary term chondrodysplasia. You are playing with words and the truth. We all know that short between the hock and hoof equals dwarf. Probably after the first 20 years both dwarf and non-dwarf were prominent in the breed. You sure hate it that Dexter cattle are a dwarf breed! What a pity that you feel the need to try to change the history of that which you cannot accept as is.
Same old bending the truth. No one mentioned chondrodsyplasia because it wasn't even a medical term in Dexters until around 2002! Same as PHA discovered later but surely identified as dwarfism/bulldog calves before and after. I could be hypothetical and say there the problem was more one of PHA then dwarfism. Prove me wrong. As a matter of fact it was the bloodlines of several POLLED breeders in the USA that were rife with PHA. Instead of using a term that was not even invented at the time of the early description and standards for Dexters, the description of the DWARF Dexter served quite well to get across the message.
Are you sure you are not hallucinating? That is the most imaginative statement yet. Even the dairy farmers were NOT widely dehorning their cattle in the 1950's. Nor in the 1960's. Routine dehorning of dairy cattle didn't become common until the last part of the century and then it began mostly with the factory farm. SHOW ME a photo of a dehorned Dexter prior to 1985. It will absolutely be the exception. As a matter of fact, there WAS a well known breeder, quite prominent in the breed, who WAS terrified of horns, and that herd was not dehorned. I do know that one of the importers responsible for polled is said to have been terrified of horns, so I will assume his animals were probably dehorned, but I never found that person truly had any affection or respect for the Dexter breed. The other one, well, that one can speak for themselves, but I know there were dehorned animals. So, instead of dealing with their fear instead of conquering it, they forced those fears on a wonderful horned breed and set out to change that RARE, HERITAGE, breed to accomodate their fear.
I would much more enjoy a debate with you if you had in place your own STANDARDS. . . . for veracity.
I am not aware of any preservationist who routinely dehorns.
There is the BIG lie. You ARE hallucinating.
Judy
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Post by cascade on Mar 19, 2018 22:10:56 GMT
Judy,
You seem to be saying that you support dehorning as long as it is done at an early age when there is less pain.
I know of one Legacy breeder, who posts here, that dehorns the majority of their calves.
I know that Legacy will allow people to label Dexters as "Traditionally Horned" even if they have had their horns removed.
I was told by a New York state long-time "traditionally horned" Dexter breeder that Marcia (Old Orchard) was terrified by horns and that's why she dehorned them all. I can look around for the direct quote. Regardless, they were hornless like most Dexters since 1960.
You should alter the Legacy database to track Horned vs. Hornless
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 19, 2018 22:22:10 GMT
I detest it when anyone dehorns a Dexter. It is quite unnecessary. Legacy breeders are the only sect of this breed who actively try to convince owners not to fear horns. But I do understand. I was terrified of horns when I got my first Dexter. However, I don't tell anyone how to conduct their business. . . . . I will just spend as much time as they will listen trying to change a position. In the end, each person is responsible to make their own choices. I am not actively involved with or aware of any breeder involved in the Legacy preservation effort who regularly dehorns. So enlighten me.
YOU afraid of horns Kirk? Is that why you ended up with the "newest" specimans of designer Dexters? You claim to be such an ardent heritage breeder, why didn't you get heritage Dexters?
Judy
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Post by cascade on Mar 19, 2018 22:50:55 GMT
A breed can only exist as a breed if it is isolated from other nearby breeds. There is no record of Dexters being raised as an isolated breed, by a group of Dexter breeders, until the very late 1800's. In 1837 a book was published which contains the FIRST written description of the word "Dexter" attached to short and thick livestock... sheep. Professor Low's story of the Dexter Cattle myth came AFTER this sheep story was already published. This sheep description explains the details... While the cattle myth has no details.
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Post by WVCaity on Mar 19, 2018 23:26:46 GMT
I was told by a New York state long-time "traditionally horned" Dexter breeder that Marcia (Old Orchard) was terrified by horns and that's why she dehorned them all. I can look around for the direct quote. Regardless, they were hornless like most Dexters since 1960. You should alter the Legacy database to track Horned vs. Hornless [ So in other words, you are sharing gossip; opposed to fact and experience. Please give it a rest and allow those with actual knowledge to come out of the shadows.
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Post by cascade on Mar 20, 2018 1:03:27 GMT
100% indisputable fact: The owner of the Old Orchard herd dehorned all of her Dexters. She obviously didn't want horned Dexters. Same thing with the Woodmagic Herd and many other old "traditional" herds that dehorned Dexters. They converted Dexters into a mostly hornless breed a half century ago.
Many/most of the animals on your "Traditional" pedigrees were hornless, but the pedigrees falsely label them as "horned".
I'm happy some people keep horns. On my farm, every calf/lamb born with horns, keeps their horns. I don't own any dehorning supplies.
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