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Post by cascade on Mar 14, 2018 2:31:35 GMT
My life revolves around preserving and promoting useful heritage breeds of plants and livestock. I've been studying it and doing it for 5 decades.
There is only one effective way to preserve heritage breeds:
Step 1: Make a very complete and detailed list of the traits that are important for the breed/variety you wish to preserve.
Step 2: Provide an environment that is conducive to propagating those traits
Step 3: Each generation, select toward the detail set of traits.
If you aren't following these 3 steps, then you aren't really preserving anything. Unless you are following these steps, genetic drift and mutations and poor selection will kill your preservation efforts.
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Post by cascade on Mar 14, 2018 16:14:21 GMT
Here are the things I'm preserving in Dexters.
1. Compact Size 2. Red or Black color 3. Short and thick frames 4. Friendly and safe 5. Simple and Easy to raise 6. Healthy without vet care 7. Hardy without special treatment 8. Efficient grazers/browsers 9. Tender gourmet beef 10. Good healthy milk and decent udders 11. Fun personalities 12. Long-lived
I'm even preserving some horn genes for future possible use.
What am I missing?
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Post by lonecowhand on Mar 14, 2018 16:17:17 GMT
These are effective guidelines. You forgot the most important step:
If you do not start with unsullied examples of a heritage breed, you will never actually have one to preserve.
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Post by cascade on Mar 14, 2018 21:15:49 GMT
1. All Dexters started as non-Dexters. 2. All Dexters have holes in their pedigrees... no Dexters can be traced entirely back to herd-book #1 in Ireland. Most all Dexters have pedigree holes in the 1930's - 1960's 3. All pedigrees, not parentage-verified back to 1890's , have some pedigree errors. That means ALL pedigrees have some errors, because parentage-verification has only occurred widely in the last decade or two. 4. It's impossible to start with absolutely pure Dexters, because none exist. But you can start with purebred registered Dexters that closely meet the 1900 Breed Standard and have been raised in a traditional manner. I've got some if you need some. This True Traditional Dexter (Cascade's Spur) meets the 1900 standard perfectly, and so do all of her offspring, when she is bred on a similar bull. Here's a picture of her at the end of a rough winter, next to a person
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Post by lonecowhand on Mar 14, 2018 21:50:52 GMT
I've heard that somewhere before?
You keep making these statements as though they were fact, when in fact they are conjecture. Since they were before your time , you don't know if there are errors or not. There was no genetic testing prior to the last few decades, and there was not incentive to cheat until the Miracle of Polledness came along.
Here's my point, if you know you have a non-dexter in the recipe, you can't cook up a Dexter. You can get a reasonable facsimile, but then why "preserve" it and call it Heritage?
It particularly bugs me that you be-smurch a pedigree like Roly-Poly's for not having adequately filled out his forms in the 1920s and 30's. Those were called "the interwar years", and besides the small problem of bombs bursting overhead, those years represented the disintegration of the world economy. There was no-one to buy a cow, no reason to breed and register an error. Of course there was a hiatus from the registry!
The fact that these valued beasts weren't all eaten is amazing in itself. Just shows you how important this breed was to it's owners at the time, that they didn't all end up barbecued during those lean times.
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Post by cascade on Mar 15, 2018 4:22:52 GMT
Legacy folks sure do make up a lot of excuses for all the holes in their own so-called "traditional" pedigrees.. while bashing other folks for old holes in their pedigrees.
You can bet that the bombs being dropped on England ruined a lot of fences and spooked a lot of livestock and you can bet there were a lot of un-attended bulls (and cows) wandering around and breeding whatever. Lots of unintended livestock outcrossing was going on while owners hid in basements to save their own lives. You can bet that lots of Dexter females were being bred by non-Dexter bulls while people hid from bombs.
Also, in the US at that time, the Peerless herd helped save Dexters from near extinction. The owners of the Peerless farm primarily raised milking Shorthorn cattle and were famous for keeping many, many shorthorn bulls. They had a relatively small herd of Dexters compared to their huge primary breed of shorthorns.
You can bet that some of those many Peerless Milking Shorthorn bulls bred some of the Peerless Dexter cows.
The owner of the Peerless herd often claimed that his "Dexters look like miniature shorthorns"
The good news is that all of that old accidental outcrossing back then helped make Dexters what they are today.... And with ongoing selection and culling, you can cull out any off-breed characteristics.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Mar 15, 2018 11:09:32 GMT
1. All Dexters started as non-Dexters. 2. All Dexters have holes in their pedigrees... no Dexters can be traced entirely back to herd-book #1 in Ireland. Most all Dexters have pedigree holes in the 1930's - 1960's 3. All pedigrees, not parentage-verified back to 1890's , have some pedigree errors. That means ALL pedigrees have some errors, because parentage-verification has only occurred widely in the last decade or two. 4. It's impossible to start with absolutely pure Dexters, because none exist. But you can start with purebred registered Dexters that closely meet the 1900 Breed Standard and have been raised in a traditional manner. I've got some if you need some. This True Traditional Dexter (Cascade's Spur) meets the 1900 standard perfectly, and so do all of her offspring, when she is bred on a similar bull.
Following your lead and logic...here is a Dexter cow that fits your description in your neck of the woods on the Salem Craigslist. She's compact, has horns, and meets all of the criteria that you list. I'm not sure if she's registered or not, but who cares, she's only $600.00! Maybe she's one of yours? If so, you should buy her back and breed her and make more just like her. By the way, I only left the text in your original post and removed the photos, per Judy's frequent requests. salem.craigslist.org/grd/d/friendly-dexter-cow/6531226664.html
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Post by cddexter on Mar 15, 2018 16:06:06 GMT
I give up.
Same bush, same around and around. All of it nonsense, imo.
Pretty much every single American Dexter descends from lost early imports, like the Guggenheim and Atlantic herds. Peerless and Clove Brook were make up herds from lost animals and re-registered from scratch by appearance. Zero proof of anything. Were they 'real' Dexters? Who knows. Probably mostly. But to paint them as guaranteed PURE and make a fetish out of 'saving' them is PURE fantasy.
Now we have this cute maybe story about how Limbury Frieda arrived because Legacy really really really wants Bullfinch to be acceptable. So, in the case of an animal Legacy likes, we have a safe, innocent scenario with no one around to argue. Cut over to poor old Saturn of Knotting: same story, different spouse, people still around to defend the critical, but in this case there must be skullduggery. It's this selective acceptance of gossip that so damages Legacy credibility.
Preserving early genetics is a laudable thing. Go for it. Just don't lie to yourself about what you started with, or make claims you can't support.
Major Dexter owners have shared gossip about other breeders, often detrimental. I've spent time and spoken with many of the old greats, including Doesmead, Atlantic, Pentre Hobyn, Grinstead, Wantsley, and it's all the same: my animals are all as registered, can't speak for the accuracy of others. Like Ann Tanner's story of the neighbours who had Kerry and Dexter, and used to exchange calves over the fence, long legs to one side, short legs to the other.
We can only do our best with what we have on the ground now. All this senseless posturing when we can't prove any early animal is as papered is so bad for the breed.
Cheers, Carol D.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Mar 15, 2018 16:44:40 GMT
I guess my only point is why do we have a registry at all, when anything that resembles a Dexter should be called a Dexter, and there are so many parentage question marks next to existing registered Dexters. Why do we spend $100 plus testing and registering with the ADCA? Why not just use Legacy, or Legacy combined with PDCA and save a bunch of money? Kirk is actually making the argument for a low cost registry. He's making the argument against using genotyping and parentage verification, in a round about way. If it looks like a Dexter, then it's a Dexter! Lots of Dexter looking cows out there, not registered, with beautiful conformation and udders, that will pass from backyard breeder to backyard breeder, over the lack of a piece of paper. Such a shame...
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 15, 2018 17:38:54 GMT
Carol,
I believe you left the Bedford herd off that analysis. That herd had not been maintained with records either. Do you doubt their authenticity?
Are you saying that Professor Plumb, ( his affirmation the animals he entered in his herd book were accurate), Mr. Logsdon, ( Peerless), Atlantic, ( A mystery to me as to your comments since the herd was slaughtered after the experimental dalliance), Clove Brook, were liars and deceivers?
Here's knowledge most don't have. Modern DNA. I personally genotyped every old Dexter I could find, and lots of modern ones. One can compare genotypes from older animals of various herds, from Colorado, a closed herd, Woodmagic, a closed herd, and even early Peerless animals, and develop a good idea of the range of markers in the original Dexter breed. ( I suppose most owners are not aware there IS a range of markers in each locus. I think there are markers that are likely specific to certain breeds as well.
As to Saturn of Knotting. I merely repeated a story told to me by someone who believed it. There were two cows. HOW was the Dexter chosen Carol? By inspection? Or do you insinuate the person who gave me that information did so with intention to deceive? Recently I tested Saturn of Knotting, and his markers are posted on his pedigree if anyone wants to compare them to their own herd lines and see if they fall within the range of their markers.
Like Hans said. Why bother developing a breed if you get to make new ones whenever it is convenient? Why is there then such pushback against the white Dexters? Their grading up program provides more purity than Platinum provides and which is considered more egregious . . . . horns off a minor breed. . .. or color additions? Or is the pushback the financial bonanza experienced by one sector being drained off to the other? It most certainly is NOT any concern for the Dexter breed.
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Post by lonecowhand on Mar 15, 2018 18:54:32 GMT
Hi Carol! Glad You are here!
I wish I could give up, but I cant stand to let the lies and innuendo, Or the endless lists of "How to Make a Silk Purse out of a Sows Ear" just lay there , uncontested.
We get slapped, and so we pick up the glove.
There are still some Dexters out there who do not have known instances of "Upgraded" blood in them. A few. Those tri-purpose horned shorties are the ones that need to be maintained or preserved. Not preserving "Purity",(as you say) but maintaining whatever level of it there is, without knowingly, or purposely diluting it for monetary gain.
I'd rather be discussing Hows your Cow, how the American Red project is coming along, or whether or not anyone is using sexed semen in AI, and the results of those efforts. That would be time well spent!
Bill
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Post by cddexter on Mar 15, 2018 19:14:15 GMT
Well, here we go again.
No not deceivers and liars. Must you try to put negative words in my mouth? This is all just grandstanding.
They were just doing their best with no records and an interest in keeping the breed going.
Palmer Langdon (had the spelling wrong) had imports from England (two herds). He and Benbyre maintained a herd. Just checked and his herd was New Jersey, sorry my mistake. All my stuff is still packed and I couldn't remember. I thought he used the Atlantic prefix here in the US. It's THAT Atlantic to which I am referring, not Ann Tanner's Atlantic's.
Ah, absolutely right. Bedford were not registered for 20 years. However, Mr. Kellogg told me that when he became an ambassador, he got rid of ALL males on the property, so no new calves in his absence. When he got back, he got Tory O'Callen and started over. He had a herdsman, who I'm told kept track of calvings even though they weren't registering. Mr. Kellogg provided the info to bring the back registrations up to speed, but had me pay for them. The vet at Bullet Hole Road said there wasn't another bovine for 20 miles (Westchester horse country, thank you). No info to the contrary, so I trust Mr. Kellogg and his herdsman, and the vet, and have to believe the paperwork was pretty accurate. I think it must have been a worthwhile rescue: take a look at the quality of Paula Maras's animals--consistent, and very good conformation, all small non-dwarfs.
Cheers, Carol.
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Post by cascade on Mar 15, 2018 22:37:18 GMT
It's really quite simple:
1. All distant old pedigrees are filled with holes and errors. They are historically interesting, but don't have much practical use.
2. A 3-4 generation pedigree can be a very useful tool in breeding, beyond 3-4 generations they greatly lose any practical value (but they are historically valuable and interesting).
3. Registration is a good thing as it helps promote better record-keeping.
4. Go with a registry that will likely be around for at least the next 60+ years (hint, ADCA has been around for the past 61 years, the others will likely fail because they are too dependent on too-few rapidly-aging folks)
5. Put more energy into breeding animals that consistently meet the valuable useful traits of the breed.
See, it's simple.
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 17, 2018 16:53:10 GMT
It is NOT that simple. By your desperate attempts, repeatedly, to legitimize your illegtimate. . . . . EVERY single breed is not a breed and every single existing pedigree should be destroyed as farcical. Poppy cock.
The way to preserve a breed is:
1. Gather the foundation animals into a herd book 2. Breed those animals together and make new animals. 3. Promote the animals by milking them and eating them
Now's that IS what is simple to understand.
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Post by cascade on Mar 20, 2018 15:59:57 GMT
It is NOT that simple.  By your desperate attempts, repeatedly, to legitimize your illegtimate. . . . .  EVERY single breed is not a breed and every single existing pedigree should be destroyed as farcical.  Poppy cock. The way to preserve a breed is: 1.  Gather the foundation animals into a herd book 2.  Breed those animals together and make new animals. 3.  Promote the animals by milking them and eating them Now's that IS what is simple to understand. That method absolutely fails. The foundation animals weren't even Dexters. They were a mutty mix of Kerry and Devon and Shorthorn and Irish Moiled and others. The foundation animals are very unpure and have tons of hidden off-breed genes. Without constant selection toward the standard, a breed can drift off into all sorts of directions.
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Post by lonecowhand on Mar 21, 2018 16:21:12 GMT
Con-ject-ure! Speculation. Presumption. Supposition. Opinion.
Repeat something three times and the simple believe anything.
Politicians, con-men, and certain fringe churches use this strategy, ad nauseum.
Peddle it elsewhere.
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 21, 2018 19:32:37 GMT
Exactly! There has been one major genetic study of Dexter cattle. The Cardiff research showed Kerry and Devon ancestry, however in the Legacy samples sent from the US, the Ypsitty herd and Woodmagic, the research stated: "reinforcing the small herd effect without very much influence from outside". The Irish research project determined the breed was closely aligned with Kerry.
Kirk would have us believe the Logson family outcrossed their Dexters with shorthorns and then negligently or purposely registered those crosses as Dexters. That IS presumptive for there is no genetic evidence of something that would certainly have shown up in heads and color. YET. . . . . . . I have never seen him a single time mention that there were Murray Gray cattle on the farm where Saltaire Platinum was born.
I still want to know how an ardent heritage preservationist of other breeders ended up with animals bred from a grade bull? Why would he choose animals with major pedigree issues? ( Hint: because he was victimized just as others were because it was kept SECRET).
Judy
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Post by cddexter on Mar 21, 2018 20:15:31 GMT
Grandstanding and misrepresentation, Judy.
Not Murray Grey cattle. One Murray Grey cow, with a calving record that accounts for every year. You KNOW you are doing the old spin doctor again. Please don't. It's hard enough to keep real facts straight without having to correct you repeatedly.
Murray Grey dilute is a dominant gene, so it would be easy to distinguish a ringer. ALL HER CALVES WOULD BE OFF COLOR. Sorry.
Carol.
PS: it's grey like the color, not gray like the surname.
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 21, 2018 23:04:10 GMT
I've never been across the water. I don't know if there was one or 100, what I DO know is that there were discussions I read where a possibility of a Murray GREY animal was in the cross. That pigued my interest so much I looked up Murray Grey cattle and darn if there wasn't one on the internet that had almost the identical phenotype as SP. I made a mirror image of the two. I am willing to bet it is right here on this board somewhere. I looked up color in MG cattle. Interesting that they also come in the color black and the article said the black throw black. The point was and is: Kirk was insinuating about gossip on the Peerless lines and never mentions the gossip connected to his bloodline.
As you wish to be part of the conversation, tell me how someone who claims the knowledge and experience you do, and the personal relationships here and abroad, and the pedigree information. ... . . . . WHY didn't YOU check the pedigree of Saltaire Platinum? I don't think for a minute you ever believed in a miracle mutation, and you don't seem to me like someone who would make such a drastic move without being fully informed with your own investigation, so WHY. . . did we end up with imported semen from a GRADE bull?
Judy
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 21, 2018 23:41:18 GMT
Here's that photo I mentioned. Goodness. Murray Grey on top. .. . Platinum on bottom
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Post by cddexter on Mar 22, 2018 5:13:45 GMT
This is why I try not to engage you. Murray Grey is named after grey cattle found near the Murray River in south AU. They were Angus, therefore black. The gene was a mutation, and is DOMINANT. It only takes ONE gene to create a grey animal, just like polled only takes one gene to create a polled animal, and black only takes one gene to create a black animal (with the other gene red). If early MG's were black, it's because the animal was the offspring of two hetero dilute gene animals. They would be grey, but the homo NOT dilute would be black. Exactly the same as two blacks creating a red, or two polled creating a horned. With all your research, surely I'm not telling you anything new, so why sound amazed.
I don't think the MG in the photo looks anything like Platinum. And, yes I did a lot of research on Platinum. Since Fred was determined to bring in a polled animal, there were four choices. Of the four lines, Platinum's pedigree was the cleanest, especially since Esmeralda did not come from the farm with the MG, but was bought in from a closely controlled rare breeds park with only horned cattle. Her polling can't come from the MG source, and nor does Platinum's. Once again, sorry.
Please put your misguided and inaccurate speculation to bed once and for all. Continuing to bring up information that you know to be false damages your credibility.
Carol.
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Post by cascade on Mar 22, 2018 6:07:03 GMT
Because the originators of Dexters gathered up any small cattle of any breed and allowed them into the new registry, Dexters started out with a mishmash of genetics from nearly every British breed.
Further, pedigrees were peppered with errors.
The chance that any 20 generation pedigree is accurate, is very near zero.
Dexters started with a little Shorthorn blood in Ireland, so if a little more snuck in via the Peerless herd, it's pretty meaningless. It's like having someone drop a bit a carrot in your vegetable soup that already has carrots in it.
You can't count on the old pedigrees to be perfectly accurate... They are full of holes and errors anyway. If you make an attempt to say one animal was more pure than another, based on those old error-filled unreliable pedigrees, you could be dead wrong. The animal that appears pure on paper, may be far less pure than others.
Worrying about old pedigrees is a waste of time genetically... Even though the old pedigrees are historically interesting.
The best you can do today, is to try to keep accurate records today, and to select toward animals that meet the list of traits you are trying to preserve.
PS. On paper, I can trace my own ancestry back to Noah and Adam and Eve via Alfred the Great King of England (my great, great, great, great...... grandfather) it's interesting, but I can't imagine that it's accurate.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Mar 22, 2018 10:33:28 GMT
This is why I try not to engage you. Murray Grey is named after grey cattle found near the Murray River in south AU. They were Angus, therefore black. The gene was a mutation, and is DOMINANT. It only takes ONE gene to create a grey animal, just like polled only takes one gene to create a polled animal, and black only takes one gene to create a black animal (with the other gene red). If early MG's were black, it's because the animal was the offspring of two hetero dilute gene animals. They would be grey, but the homo NOT dilute would be black. Exactly the same as two blacks creating a red, or two polled creating a horned. With all your research, surely I'm not telling you anything new, so why sound amazed. I don't think the MG in the photo looks anything like Platinum. And, yes I did a lot of research on Platinum. Since Fred was determined to bring in a polled animal, there were four choices. Of the four lines, Platinum's pedigree was the cleanest, especially since Esmeralda did not come from the farm with the MG, but was bought in from a closely controlled rare breeds park with only horned cattle. Her polling can't come from the MG source, and nor does Platinum's. Once again, sorry. Please put your misguided and inaccurate speculation to bed once and for all. Continuing to bring up information that you know to be false damages your credibility. Carol. So Carol, disregarding Platinum for the moment, what do you think the odds are that once Platinum semen made it into the U.S., and polled started to appear, there may have been either intentional or unintentional breedings of other polled breeds into the Dexter herd, that increased (or assured) the production of polled Dexters? After all, they were commanding a premium price and selling quickly. Genotyping wasn't required with ADCA (and still isn't) of all Dexter parents, and parent verification still isn't in place and won't be fully in place for years to come. PDCA still doesn't require either a genotype or parent verification. A look at the websites of some Dexter breeders show some that have Lowline Angus, and social media has stories all the time of "What do I do? My neighbors Angus bull jumped the crappy fence" questions. Obviously the Dexter phenotype has changed considerably in many cases. I recently saw a post about a Red Angus bull that jumped a fence and produced a large calf out of a Dexter cow. The photo of the wandering bull had a profile very similar to several polled bulls on the ADCA AI page, with a bulge, rather than the dish, on the muzzle. If you have noticed there are a lot of polled and homozygous polled bulls that have this prominent bulge between the eyes and down the muzzle, like they're in bad need of a nose job. And beady eyes. What's with the beady eyes? None of my traditional lines bulls have this bulge, and I haven't seen any historical photos of Dexter bulls with such prominent bulges. They have nice "kind" faces with large eyes that have a graceful "dish" from the forehead to the nose, and between the eyes. Honest answer please...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2018 13:53:02 GMT
Carol, why blame this on Fred. If he was so determined let him do it on his own. He would not have succeeded and you know that. You didnt have to help and when you did not get your way and the American Dexter breeders refusal to accept him you did not have to get a lawyer. If this was the "cleanest" you could find you could have at least been truthful about it instead of making up a novel mutation theory. why is it that you publicly stated your desire to see to it that no full blood Dexters existed in america.
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 22, 2018 15:44:32 GMT
Well. . . . . well. . . . . . well.
The first time I ever heard gossip was regarding Pardon Bullfinch. By Carol Davidson on the old DC2 board. In response to a question by Chris Ricard regarding the purity of Saltaire Platinum. I saw it as "deflection" of the SP question. Then there was the gossip about Ms. Fermoy. Also posted by Carol. Carol, you are like Kirk. Your standards are reflected in your own interests. *I* think those two photos are VERY comparable. Especially in the areas of muscling at the top of the legs. Close enough to generate discussion at any rate.
You don't like to "engage" me Carol because I am not intimidated by you and I don't lay down and roll over!
I consider this an attempt to make it look as if *i* am the source of gossip regarding the Murray GREY and to challenge my integrity. I rarely pass on anything that hasn't come to me in writing because I like to source information, therefore, I thought on it last night, and then I remembered. It was in a book published by DCS ! I have to laugh here. A book by the registering authority! Here is the passage from page 81, " The World of Dexter Cattle, Proceedings of The First World Congress on Dexter Cattle".
Wow! Perhaps it is YOU who should apologize to me for trying to give a false impression to participants here as to my comments.
How could *i* possibly know this to be false? Or you for that matter! Herd book entries showing crosses with Murray Grey? Why, a few of your old friends would tell you in a minute how these things happen in the dark of night, ( accidental crosses from fence jumpers who then jump back), and Kirk will tell you as well how untrustworthy breeders are in their record keeping.
I think MY integrity and credibility is trustworthy and everyone knows it.
Judy
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Post by cddexter on Mar 22, 2018 16:08:51 GMT
Sleep reminded me that Judy has the English herd books, so she can look up anyone's herd and see what was on the farm. To pretend to have innocent questions, being thorough, is just another old game. All of this material has been posted and reposted ad nauseam. Just a waste of time and effort to pander to Judy's sense of theatre.
Pam had a non-Dexter cow, she must be engaged in nefarious deeds and has deliberately registered a cross in the purebred registry, not even related to Platinum, by the way). Charles had three different breeds all in the same field together (Dexter, Hereford and Tarentaise), bulls included, but his animals are all pure as the driven snow and the pedigrees shouldn't be questioned. In the former case, the result is something Judy doesn't like (polled); in the latter, the result is something Judy does like (wild red). One small example of selective reasoning. You get the drift. We went through this in 2004 when an ADCA employee decided she had the right to dictate to an elected Board, and manage the association her own way regardless. She stole the association records and left in a huff, and there was Judy trumpeting all over the web how 'the Board was trying to take over the association' by standing up for itself. No matter how often Judy was reminded that the Board IS the association, and can't take over itself, she refused to stop trying to encourage the rift.
Hans, I think it very unlikely there was a wholesale move to crossbreed to get polled. There MAY have been one or two who thought they were being clever, but that's the way of humans. Given the 99% shared dna between humans and chimps, and the 60% shared dna between humans and banana trees (!), the percentage difference between cattle breeds is going to be miniscule, probably mostly those pesky cosmetic identifiers. I've seen Dexters in all shapes and sizes, colors, horn shapes, and coat densities, in countries all over the world, and the one thing I can guarantee is that the consistency simply isn't there. From my scientific reading, I'd be inclined to voice the opinion that because for the first 110 years of Dexter history, pretty much the only selection criteria was height, and the rest of the genes could go hang (well, except for a few who tried to breed for high volume udders), and it's only in the last 30 years that anyone has bothered to actually breed for conformation and consistency, you are going to find every variation under the sun.
And Bill, Fred would have succeeded just fine without me. He had his eye on a different line, one with recorded Angus outcrossing, nice animals and was ready to collect. I found a bull whose qualities were even better, non-dwarf, and no known outcrossing to get the polled gene. He decided I had a point, and imported semen from that bull instead. All I did was get him to change his source. Regarding your final sentence, I think you've been listening to the wrong people. I'd hardly make a comment like that if I'd gone into hock and just spent thousands of dollars in identifying and preserving one of the old lines in the US at a time when no one else cared, now would I?
Enough. Carol.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2018 21:13:51 GMT
he may very well have breed his own animals but they would not have been accepted for registration. Even if you take platinum pedigree at face value he had upgraded. In fact Platinum was not accepted until you threatened with a lawyer. Freds animals would not have been accepted.
You are claiming you are not responsible because He was going to do it anyway you just helped him do it better. So if someone is going to kill them self with a shotgun you would give them a 357 because that would be better?
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Post by cddexter on Mar 23, 2018 0:24:54 GMT
Mike, I NEVER threatened anyone with a lawyer. That's a story that's been transposed from from Paul Taylor threatening the ADCA over Lucifer. I know you are passionate, but get your stories straight, will you. Sometimes I think the lot of you are a total waste of good oxygen.
Instead of beating up everyone who doesn't follow your religion, just be happy you get to practice your own version of purity. Get over it.
c.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Mar 23, 2018 14:13:17 GMT
Carol, if those one or two breeders happened to have lots of Dexters, then the influence is going to be pretty high, don't you think? So you selected a better prospect for Fred...what difference did it make in the long run, if some breeders ended up taking liberties with their breeding practices anyway? Frankly, the Dexter breed would have been better off if Fred had chosen a polled bull to be collected that had a questionable pedigree. At least the distinctions would have been more clear from the get-go.
It's really time to get past the whole Platinum discussion, and focus on what has taken place with polled Dexters since then. Now that the novelty has worn off, there are a lot of people who are finding that their polled red Dexters aren't functionally much different than Lowline Angus and are competing in the same market with Miniature Herefords, or other grade animals that happen to be small. Maybe there are more Dexters that are red, but a lot of commercial buyers prefer black. Ironic that there is a sale category on the ADCA website that includes "herd dispersal" and many of them are polled Dexters. Those that aren't polled are generally horned animals out of polled Dexters.
Thanks in large part to Judy, horned Dexters out of Platinum descendants aren't in very high demand among the informed buyers. Now, thanks to the polled breeders, heterozygous polled Dexters aren't in very high demand, especially bulls. What is left with Dexters that is unique to the breed? Dexters out of non-Platinum descendants, whether they are horned or de-horned, and chondro positive Dexters. The A2 milk thing has started to run out of steam, especially with those who don't milk. So I'll say it again I see the Dexter breed splitting into two distinct types, the homozygous polled, and the Traditional horned, even if it's de-horned, geared more toward the preservationist. I'd rather be on the more unique and heritage side of the division. For one, because I prefer them, and second, because there are fewer of them and the market is not over saturated. Obviously having some chondro positive Dexters to sell makes it possible to appeal to even more buyers, because I have all types (other than polled).
The entire problem with the Dexter breed is that there were some who tried to make it into something that it wasn't, and market to the people who had better options available to them. Tough times ahead for many who bought into (for a high price in many cases) the latest fads in the breed, and now have to find buyers for their Dexters. At least they're worth something as beef.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2018 14:33:16 GMT
Carol, here is the thing when we try and move on and do our own thing. That includes promoting Legacy and traditional lines. Kirk comes one here or else where and post Anti Legacy anti Dexter anti chondro reterick . Most of the time I just ignore him but some times his twisted facts and history need to be challenged. I am not sure why you come to his defense he has lost all credibility in the Dexter world. I can only think that you defend him because you are the sole person responsible for polled Dexters. Maybe that makes you proud but really not something to be proud of.
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