Chondro question

[karenp]

A question about Chondro carriers came up on the KFC site. I understand there are different types of Chondro, what happens if a cow with the bulldog type of Chondro to a bull with one of the other types of Chondro?

[Deleted]

I assume you are talking about crossbreeding to other breeds. I guess the answer is it is unpredictable because there are lost of different variations out there and you dont know which one it is. You could get a bulldog calf or you could also get one that was really small. I suspect you could also end up with a number of defects in between the to. 

[genebo]

Chondrodysplasia is a condition unique to Dexters, that has always been a part of the Dexter breed. It was scientifically identified and described for the first time by Julie Cavanaugh and co-researchers just before year 2000.

It behaves differently from all other forms of bovine dwarfism. A lot has been written about it.

I don't know the exact year, but a second form of Dexter chondrodysplasia was discovered in Australia. It affected a small number of Australian Dexter cattle descended from Meadowpark Charles. Every Dexter that was identified as carrying this second form of chondro was reportedly euthanized. None remained alive.

A test was developed for both types of Dexter chondro. UC Davis offers both types of the test, labeling the test results as BD1 and BD2. As far as I know, there has never been a Dexter in America test positive for BD2. Nor anywhere else outside of Australia.

A long time ago I had a cow that was 1/2 Dexter, 1/2 Shorthorn, with no outward sign of dwarfism. She bred to a chondro carrier Dexter bull and produced two calves, both apparently chondro carriers. The two calves were sold separately, but were re-united at another farm, where they bred together. The result was the world's smallest bull according to the Guinness book of world records standards. He was 22" tall at one year old. He grew to 27" tall when he was 3 years old. He didn't look perfectly like a chondro Dexter. Minor differences. I suspected that he inherited a form of Shorthorn dwarfism from his two parents, plus Dexter chondrodysplasia.

[cddexter]

Gene:

Ensminger identified three types of dominant dwarfism: 1: Dexter; 2: Guernsey, Holstein, Jersey, Telemark; 3: Jersey, Swedish Red and White.  There is also a recessive dwarfism found in Shorthorns,  He also identified retardation of growth in Angus, and in Herefords compressed growth.

The chondro 2 gene was actually from New Zealand, not Australia, and was the result of crossing a chondro Dexter with a Red Poll which carried an unknown form of dwarfism, which (since the cow looked normal) is probably a little known recessive in the breed.  I mention this only so you won't mislead  others by providing incorrect info.  The gene ended up in AU because breeders there imported semen from Meadowpark Charles.

At the time the New Zealand chondro 2 was identified, there was no discernible phenotypic difference between the two types of chondro.  Since you don't specify which chondro's you are referring to, does that answer the question?

Davis did a 10-year study on Dexter dwarfism vs. Hereford and Angus, re-creating dwarf animals under lab conditions.  You might want to check that out.  I no longer have my copy so you'll have to go looking.

c.

PS:  But, I also was thinking about AU eliminating the BD2 gene in the country.  They did the same with PHA.  I guess this would be a good time and place to comment on integrity, both personal and national.  AU bit the bullet and did the right thing for the breed, genetically.  Compare that to what happened in America:  hidden testing, silence, quick sales, evasion, and now we have PHA hidden all over the place and newer owners not knowing about it and finding out the hard way.  In AU, ethics won.  In the US, profit and status won.  In which country is the breed better off?

[cascade]

Chondro = Cartilage
Dysplasia = Deformity

Many genes are involved in producing normal healthy cartilage, when anything goes wrong with those genes, it can result one of many different forms of chondrodysplasia.

"Bulldog" Type chondrodysplasia found in Dexters, is based on a broken ACAN gene which causes a deficiency of Aggrecan protein, critical for formation of normal cartilage and bone.

Two good working ACAN genes (one from each parent) are necessary to produce maximum aggrecan protein for normal healthy bones and joints.

Aggrecan is a critical component for cartilage structure and the function of normal bone growth and the function of healthy joints. Aggrecan provides cartilage with the ability to resist compressive loads.

If one ACAN gene is broken, the animal is stunted with deformed cartilage and shortened bones, if both ACAN genes are broken, the baby will be a blob, that dies at birth, and sometimes kills the mother (it's hard to pass a nearly boneless blob).

With a shortage of aggrecan, bones and cartilage and joints are malformed. This can lead to an abnormal gait, and wear and tear on bone ends, making joints last substantially shorter lives, than normal joints leading to early arthritis.

The broken ACAN gene has no effect on temperament… but an animal with a disability, can move slower, making them appear calm, but it's not true genetic calmness.

This aggrecan-deficiency type of Chondrodysplasia is NOT unique to Dexters, it's not even unique to cattle. It can be found in ALL animals (since all animals have ACAN genes that can break).

When these ACAN genes break due to mutations, each version looks slightly different. Geneticists have labeled these broken ACAN gene versions in cattle as "BD1, BD2, etc.."

In most animals, these broken ACAN genes would simply be culled out. But in Dexters and other miniatures like Zebu, they are tolerated by some folks.

They recently found that miniature Zebu have a version of "Bulldog" Chondrodysplasia labeled "BDZ" and it is now testable by UC Davis along with BD1 and BD2.

It's possible that BDZ is also in Dexters since Miniature Zebu were kept in Ireland and England at the time Dexters were being founded in the late 1800's.

[jamshundred]

Dexter cattle were gathered into a breed of DWARF cattle. Because the dwarf gene is NOT a lethal gene, a dwarf Dexter cow can birth either a dwarf calf or a non dwarf calf. There is a percentage of danger when breeding two dwarf Dexters together of having an aborted fetus or calf.

At the time the Dexter breed was gathered in to herd book records, so was the Kerry breed, ( longer legged versions of Dexters in the beginning).

Fast forward 120 years. The Dexter breed thrived and multiplied. The Kerry breed diminished in numbers.

One could posit the theory that the long legs were the lethal gene....for they were not valued across time.

For those of us who breed dwarf Dexters, we know the “right stuff”. AND......to keep the valued, unique traits of the breed ...you MUST keep the dwarf genes.

[cascade]

The term "Lethal Gene" or "Lethal Allele" is a very specific term in genetics. Some genes, like the ACAN gene, are essential for life. If those essential genes are broken, then the broken version is called a "lethal gene/lethal alleles.

Three different lethal genes have been found in a tiny minority of Dexters... BD1, BD2, and PHA.

UC Davis genetics lab appropriately labels them as "lethal".

This is from UC Davis



The original 1890 Irish Dexter Breed Description said nothing about the three phenotypes associated with chondrodysplasia (long, short, dead monster).  Instead, the described a true-breeding short breed, all having short legs.

They considered chondrodysplasia to be an unwelcome intruder... A problem needing to be solved.

[jamshundred]

EVERY calf of a dwarf to dwarf breeding does NOT die. Only a very small percentage are at risk. Therefore it is NOT a lethal gene unless it is lethal, which it is NOT at least 75% of the time, but it seems 90% or more is more accurate as to healthy calves even when dwarf to dwarf.

[cascade]

"Though recessive lethals may code for dominant or recessive traits, they are only fatal in the homozygous condition. Heterozygotes will sometimes display a form of diseased phenotype, as in the case of achondroplasia. One mutant lethal allele can be tolerated, but having two results in death. In the case of homozygous achondroplasia, death almost invariably occurs before birth or in the perinatal period"

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethal_allele


Lots of different normal healthy genes can cause Dexters to be exceptionally short. Not all short Dexters have chondrodysplasia.

If you breed a known chondro-bull on a bunch of short Dexter cows you may only get 5% or 10% deaths because many of those short Dexter cows will be true-short, non-chondrodysplasia.

The BIG mistake that many folks made in the past is that they assumed that short = chondrodysplasia. But that is wrong. Many short Dexters are naturally true-short (non-chondro).

You can breed a true-short bull on true-short cows an get 0% deaths.

[jamshundred]

Lots of different normal healthy genes can cause Dexters to be exceptionally short. Not all short Dexters have chondrodysplasia.

Yes. . . . . . BUT .. .. . . . not a single one of those "normal, healthy" genes can cause a Dexter to carry the valuable traits connected to the dwarfism.   NOT A ONE.  Miniaturize your herd as much as you wish. . .. . but you are NOT making Dexters of the quality and value of the dwarf Dexter.   DWARFISM is a VALUABLE trait which sustained this breed.


You are not being realistic. 

 Holstein cattle, and to a lesser degree, Jersey and Guernsey cattle have survived because they have been valuable to the dairy trade.   ALL other dairy breeds struggle for a market.
Angus cattle, and to a lesser degree, White-face cattle bred off the Herefords and Hereford cattle have been valuable to the beef trade. ALL other beef breeds struggle for a market.  The Devon breed spent quite a sum a few years ago trying to break into the beef market with a strong advertising campaign.  Rarely see a ad anymore.

So . .. . how are Dexter cattle going to survive in a market where they can NOT compete with either category?   They have to maintain their niche market.   The DWARF Dexter is perfect for this market.   Healthy cattle from a uniquely strong immune system,  easy calving, excellent beef in a small manageable package which matures earlier than beef breeds even on grass, early sexual maturity in cows, small size easily managed by adults and kids, ( includes the horns they should have on their polls), eat far less than other breeds and can maximize minimal forage like no other breed! !   The DWARF Dexter is the IDEAL homestead cow. . . . . . and in the future as in the past. .. . .  .they are the only factor that will save this breed.

[cascade]

Dexters are the ONLY breed of cattle that is compact, and hardy, and feed efficient, and friendly, and disease resistant, and parasite resistant, and weather resistant, and produces exceptional gourmet quality beef and milk. No other breed does all that.


All those great traits come from lots and lots of other genes, not from a single broken ACAN gene (chondrodysplasia).


None of those great traits come from a broken ACAN gene (chondrodysplasia). All the broken ACAN gene does is block production of aggrecan protein, causing cartilage defects, poor joints, early arthritis, and deformed calves.

[jamshundred]

Original horned DWARF Dexters are unique to all other cattle breeds, and those dwarf traits Are NOT found in non-dwarf cattle.  The personalities of non-dwarf and dwarf differ, and NO non dwarf Dexter will process minimal forage and maximize the nutrition the same as a dwarf.  Your miniaturized cattle might eat less forage, but they will not maintain condition on minimal forage as a dwarf can.  

Dexter cattle breeders and owners, since the founding of the breed have rejected all attempts to describe the breed as “miniature” cattle.  However,  those who breed to decrease size of non dwarf cattle ARE doing just that........and taking another step forward in genetically altering the breed.

[cascade]

Only a small percentage of so-called "Traditional" Dexters have the BD1 (chondrodysplasia) gene. Most do not have it. In fact, one of your followers for years only kept one chondro Dexter (bull) in his herd of non-chondro Dexter cows and he quickly sold-off chondro-calves at very young ages.

 Judy, you seen to be saying that all those very many "Traditional" non-chondro Dexters don't have all the wonderful things we love about Dexters?

Meanwhile, my entire herd of non-chondro Dexters definitely do have all those wonderful Dexter traits.

[jamshundred]

Kirk. .. they DO NOT . .. .because one of the most majestic of all the qualities of a Dexter are their HORNS.   Dexters are VISUALLY defined by their dwarf conformations and their HORNS. 

 You have a herd of red miniaturized cattle.  I don't think I can honestly call them Dexters Kirk, because you have concentrated the genetics of unknown cattle in your lines.   No one knows the source of the polled in Godstone Esmeralda, whether iit was a random beef bull, or whether there was some shorthorn involvement, and  no one knows the bloodlines of Homer Rixey Piella A138, other than it was a "beef" crossing.  No one knows the other breed in the background of Doesmead Belinda, and even the supposed  "Jersey cross" is not known for sure, we do know Blackcap had Black Welsh.  If you had your way you would throw in Charley Pudding. . . . and Ms. Fermoy. . .. . .  and that would absolutely give you a NEW BREED because there would be nothing left of the old.   

The obvious question. . . .. . would you wish that genetic soup on your Icelandic Sheep or your Guinea hogs?   

[cascade]

Esmeralda has a very pure pedigree and she was polled with scurs, just like her great, great, great.... great grandsire, Spalpeen in 1912

Horns are fun to look at and most original Dexters likely had horns, but some were polled, and the original breed standards allowed for both horned and polled Dexters.

Here is Esmeralda's ancestor.  No majestic horns.

[yellowhouse]

It is impossible to draw definitive scientific conclusions from a photo that is over 100 years old. You can’t state as fact this bull is polled with scurs anymore than I can state as fact this bull was born without ears just because I can’t make out his ears in the photo. I have seen horned cattle grow scurs after dehorning.

[cascade]

Yellowhouse,

Most everything we know about history lacks "Definitive Scientific Proof" .

 99% of Dexters in history have no records of horns and no photos of horns.  0% of historical Dexters have "Definitive Scientific Proof" of being horned.   

We have enough evidence to claim that historical Dexters were primarily horned with some scur-horned and some smooth polled inividuals.   But if you require "Definitive Scientific Proof"  then we have to say that there is no "Definitive Scientific Proof" that any Dexters in history were homozygous-horned.

It seems like you are ok with accepting unprobable myths with no evidence at all, but you demand "Definitive Scientific Proof" for very rational things like "a few historic Dexters had some poll genes, and a few were scur-horned".



 

[cddexter]

Back to a statement above by Judy about non-lethal chondro.

Judy, I think it's been documented enough times that you really must stop some of these half-truths.  Bulldog calves can be aborted at 2-3 months with nothing much to show for anything other than the cow returns open.  Other bulldogs tend to go to about 7 months and then abort, and it's those you see.  (sometimes).  Since you have most of the English herd books, you can take any dwarf breeder with numbers, and check the birthdates of each calf.  Over and over you will find 10 - 14 month gaps in calving for the cows, plus records of bulldogs.  Statenboro is a classic example.  Check it out.  Homozygous chondro does produce 25% loss if you have enough numbers to give a statistical value. 

If horns are a defining factor in registration, why did the English Society consistently allow appendix animals without horns to be registered and retained in the herd book?  You are simply proving once again it's your version of reality vs. facts.  By now yellowhouse must have figured out that any animal that does not descend ONLY from original foundation stock in England is defined by you as a grade animal.  If you want to make up your own definitions, go for it.  Just don't expect the entire Dexter world out there to by sympathetic.  Remember the old WWII cartoon with mum standing on the sidelines, saying, "Oh look, my Jonny is the only one in step."? 

cheers, c.

[jamshundred]

Judy, I think it's been documented enough times that you really must stop some of these half-truths.

Oh really!  By whom.  Where are the reports and stats please from chondrodysplasia breeders?
Do you know anyone who has compiled breeding records?   Do YOU have personal experience breeding chondro to chondro?   I . . . DO

Bulldog calves can be aborted at 2-3 months with nothing much to show for anything other than the cow returns open. Other bulldogs tend to go to about 7 months and then abort, and it's those you see. (sometimes). Since you have most of the English herd books, you can take any dwarf breeder with numbers, and check the birthdates of each calf.

No.  YOU are making the statement. .. . . why don't YOU do that.  If this is written in stone. . .. .  .why hasn't it been written in stone?   ( Hint - because there are variables in breeding dwarf to dwarf that will tilt the stats). .  .and because no one knew about PHA back in the day. .. . . .  .and the Woodmagic herd which had many losses also was the source of PHA, and it could have arrived from the Doesmead herd to the Woodmagic herd  since both herds reported "long leg monsters", dead at birth. . . .and. . . .. because, like Kirk who has NO experience breeding dwarf cattle, both of you are guilty of speculation . . .. . since there is no documentation from early breeders. 

Since you have most of the English herd books, you can take any dwarf breeder with numbers, and check the birthdates of each calf. Over and over you will find 10 - 14 month gaps in calving for the cows, plus records of bulldogs. Over and over you will find 10 - 14 month gaps in calving for the cows, plus records of bulldogs. Statenboro is a classic example. Check it out. Homozygous chondro does produce 25% loss if you have enough numbers to give a statistical value.

I am a dwarf breeder.   I have dwarf and non-dwarf cattle.   So did the English.  Neither are identified in the herd books, except on the occasion when there is a bulldog calf notation, so YOU have no way of knowing if a cow was a chondro carrier or not without extensive research and recording of information. .. . . .  or the reason she may not have been bred. .. . . . . . IF. . . . .. . in fact. . . . . . those circumstances exist. Why don't you give the people here reading that proclamation the statistical details.  T.     I know of no study which documents the supposed abortions you suggest, and frankly, I've not seen what you suggest exists.   I will wait for your PROOF.    The one breeder in the UK who did keep stats of dwarf to dwarf calvings recorded and reported a SIX percent loss.   That is about the same loss of calves in herds of ALL breeds that are not dwarf.  Except dairy herds which I think may be larger.

If horns are a defining factor in registration, why did the English Society consistently allow appendix animals without horns to be registered and retained in the herd book? You are simply proving once again it's your version of reality vs. facts. By now yellowhouse must have figured out that any animal that does not descend ONLY from original foundation stock in England is defined by you as a grade animal. If you want to make up your own definitions, go for it. Just don't expect the entire Dexter world out there to by sympathetic. Remember the old WWII cartoon with mum standing on the sidelines, saying, "Oh look, my Jonny is the only one in step."?

Well, the horns WERE a defining factor.   It was a requirement of the breed standard that Dexters were to be horned.    Since, I have a list that I have compiled of EVERY appendix animal from the beginning of Dexters until 1985, ( and working to complete it to 2000), I have entered every entry myself, and I am more than a little familiar with the appendix registry.  As a matter of fact. . .. . . I am the ONLY person who has ever made a spread sheet of appendix animals and published it and that was back in 2006 or 07 when I first started the spread sheet.  It is still on my website.     If there are notations of polledness in the registered appendix animals. .  ..  .it must be in code, and since a requirement for registration required females only with horns. . .. .   anything that was registered without horns would have been done so fraudulently. 

AND. . .I find your truth standard a bit lacking.  I NEVER said every appendix animal is a Grade animal.   I said Saltaire Platinum is a GRADE animal.  He is!  If there was a category lower than grade he would fit in it. 

Even though I do NOT agree with modern standards of "purebred", I begrudgingly honor that standard held by the industry. YOU knew of the issues surrounding Saltaire Platinum and his pedigree when you arranged the import and it is my opinion you manipulated an old man who I think feared horns,  (Fred Chesterley) since it gave you the polled ticket into the Canadian Dexters.   Never forget I had several conversations with Chesterley before he died.  

. . . .so  . . . . . . there you go again, , , ,  which tells me I am making good points against the Kirk nonsense when they haul you out to try to discredit me.    





  

[yellowhouse]

Cascade,

I was addressing the following statement you made...

Esmeralda has a very pure pedigree and she was polled with scurs, just like her great, great, great.... great grandsire, Spalpeen in 1912

Please publish the proof( I.e. cite references) that these two animals were polled(with scurs). Statements made without citing sources does not equal fact. I have no interest in picking a side in this controversy, however I do challenge statements presented as fact without proof.

[yellowhouse]

Trying to figure out how to post pics, clicked on an icon and inadvertently liked my own post LOL. How do you post pics?

[jamshundred]

I use the “add attachment”.     OR..

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[cddexter]

here we go again.

I specifically used Statenboro as an example because Ben ALWAYS bred short to short ONLY. ALL non-dwarfs were sold for meat, heifers included. It is possible to use her herd as proof of stats.    Easier to attack me than do some homework, isn't it?  Next...

Since you weren't even on the scene in Fred's better days, you have no idea what he thought or who he was.  As usual, you make up a story so it must be true.  Shame on you. 

You and he would have got on famously over the Lucifer issue, as he was even more vehemently against Lucifer than you are.

Please print a copy of the dna genetic background report for Fermoy so we can bury the Dexter, no, it's Tarentaise E+ for good.  Charles Pacheco's records were pure fiction.  He had three different breeds all in the same field.  Under your 'conditions', this would make his animals totally unacceptable, but because you want Fermoy to be special, it's blinkers time.  Sort of like Parndon Bullfinch who you are sure, someday, will be proven okay--because you want him to be.  Never mind all the first and second hand stories of mis-registrations, switched papers, and substituted animals.  Piffle. c.

[cascade]

Yellowhouse,

We have NO absolute proof of the genetic horn status of any Dexters born before 1990, except Trillium Cluny born in 1980 for which someone donated semen for a DNA Poll test, and I paid for the test. No others have DNA test results.

No Dexters born before 1980 have any records of horn status and they have no DNA tests. Only about 1% of them have photos that allow us to make educated guesses about their horn DNA statuses.

99% of historical Dexters have no record of horn status and no photo. You don't get to assume they are horned. You have to assume they all have an unknown horn status.

Evidence supporting the likelihood that Spalpeen is polled with scur horns includes the following:

1. Spalpeen has no record of being horned.
2. Neither of Spalpeen's parents have records of horns nor photos of horns.
3. Spalpeen's photo lacks true horns.
4. Spalpeen's photo appears to show scurs.
5. None of Spalpeen's offspring have records of horns nor photos of horns.
6. Registration rules allowed polled animals (with or without scurs) to be registered.
7. Lord Ashburton stated that it was common to see Dexter bulls with scur-type "misshapen horns" at English shows.
8. Lord Ashburton stated that de-horning was not allowed at English shows, but polled Dexters with misshaped scurs should be allowed to win ribbons if they were otherwise the best animal in the show.

Evidence that Godstone Esmeralda is polled with scurs includes the following:

1. Esmeralda is listed as polled in the registry
2. Esmeralda has several offspring listed as polled in the registry
3. None of Esmeralda's parents nor grandparents nor great grandparents have records nor photo's of horns.
4. The owner of Godstone Esmeralda reported that she had horn growths but not true horns.

No one questioned Esmeralda's horn status until after her smooth-polled son, Migh Poldark was born.

[jamshundred]

Carol D,

I specifically used Statenboro as an example because Ben ALWAYS bred short to short ONLY. ALL non-dwarfs were sold for meat, heifers included. It is possible to use her herd as proof of stats. Easier to attack me than do some homework, isn't it? Next...

I don't care who you used. . . .. . as there is NO status of short leg or long leg recorded in herd books so we only have your word for it, and I don't place much stock in that.  Furthermore, it is rather arrogant to come up with a research project to gain YOUR desired ends, and then tell me to do it for you.  LOL!  That'll be the day.   I'd choose Grinstead herd since I believe Lady Loder and her herdsman knew how to breed dwarf to dwarf to minimize the percentage of loss.  Just as I do.
A side note - to your supposition that "Ben" sold all the non-shorts.  Since there was NO test to confirm dwarf or not. . .. . . and over and over and over on the boards YOU and KIRK and the other nay-sayers have always insisted one cannot tell without that test.  . . . . then you are suggesting an accuracy you would normally suggest is not possible.    Attack you?  oh shudder!  That is an old ploy.  First attack and then cry foul when rebuffed. 

Since you weren't even on the scene in Fred's better days, you have no idea what he thought or who he was. As usual, you make up a story so it must be true. Shame on you.

I know he was mid seventies when "he" got the brilliant idea to import Saltaire Platinum, and I know he couldn't answer a single question about "his" choices ! !   I know he hated(feared) horns.  Proof of that is in writing.  I know that he was past the medicare retirement age when he got his first Dexter.  So .. .  WHEN was his "better days" as regards Dexters?

You and he would have got on famously over the Lucifer issue, as he was even more vehemently against Lucifer than you are.

I suspect he had the same valid reasons as me as his chilling description of the young bull that paced the paddock, pawing and tossing dirt and bellowing with protruding eyes and charging, that HE said the owner in Canada would not sell but finally gave in when told he would NOT be used for breeding, and then that bull came to America and was used to continue to establish RED bloodlines eventually ( after descendants entered the breeding pool) being slaughtered after charging the owner.   Was this "fine" man of better days lying to me Carol?  You can not have him both ways.  

Please print a copy of the dna genetic background report for Fermoy so we can bury the Dexter, no, it's Tarentaise E+ for good. Charles Pacheco's records were pure fiction. He had three different breeds all in the same field. Under your 'conditions', this would make his animals totally unacceptable, but because you want Fermoy to be special, it's blinkers time. Sort of like Parndon Bullfinch who you are sure, someday, will be proven okay--because you want him to be. Never mind all the first and second hand stories of mis-registrations, switched papers, and substituted animals. Piffle. c.

*I" don't want Fermoy to be special.  Her pedigree denotes a fullblood animal, red in color.  She was the ONLY living animal in America with that status.  The choice was. .. . . (1)  preserve the bloodline and let future science tell the tale (2) do nothing.  Better to err on the side of preservation than err on the side of doing nothing.   There is not a single person who has ever heard anything but ALL the information regarding Ms. Fermoy from me.  Not a single person.  That I am rabid about honesty and transparency is pretty obvious.

So, let's talk about YOU and Ms. Fermoy.   You tried to buy Ms. Fermoy and take her to Canada.  You purchased the rest of The Wee Gaelic herd and took them to Canada.  Oops.  Did you not know then what you profess to know now. . . . or did you just not care if those animals were questionable?  Chesterley ended up with Mrs. Fermoy. . . . . and the RED POLL disaster began because YOU. . .turned him on to Ms Fermoy when you could not get her across the border.   Oh dear, here I go again.   You do realize there are other early RED lines that carry E+, right?  Are you suggesting that EVERY animal that carries E+ is a crossbred?    One other questions. . . . . since you were simpatico with Mr. Chesterley, and you had such reservations about Ms. Fermoy. . . . . . why did you not warn him off using her to establish the polled lines in America?  

Parndon Bullfinch is the same.  Everyone is aware.  It's been detailed over and over.  Better to err on the side of preservation than to err on a 99.5% entire polled American herd.   YOU are the person who spread the gossip about his sire PCP without a single bit of verification of the gossip which in fact turned out to be wrong because science of color  proved it is wrong.

I will repeat my often made observation.  Science of DNA is advancing rapidly.  One day all the questions will be answered.  

[yellowhouse]

Cascade,

We have gone far afield from the subject of this thread which related to Chondro. You stated Godstone Esmeralda is registered as polled, then this is proof to support your claim in regards to her. The rest of your claims are rooted in supposition. The absence of proof is not in and of itself fact. I find it interesting in other threads and forums you claim there were breeders in the late 1890’s etc that we’re concentrating there efforts on solidifying the polled gene in their herds. Yet, the 1890 Royal Dublin herdbook has four photos in it, two of Kerry Cattle clearly horned and two of Dexter Cattle clearly horned. Where are the photos of the unique, unusual and popular polled Kerry or Dexter cattle? While it may be possible some of these horned cattle could be carriers of a polled gene, from what I am reading and seeing in photos from that time period it certainly wasn’t selected for. With my background in animal science, my experience in the purebred beef, dairy industries, reading about the history of this breed and seeing drawings/photos of these cattle from the 1800’s and on I currently tend to believe the following. IF there were any polled Dexters or Kerry’s showing up in the 1800’s, they were not selected
for and they very well could have been crossbreds not to be advertised. I believe the accepted breed type for both Kerry and Dexter cattle at the time was to have horns as supported by strong photographic evidence clearly showing well horned cattle(obviously there were cameras, where are the polled variety). The fact that the 1890 Royal Dublin Herdbook doesn’t stipulate horned cattle is not proof polled was acceptable or existed. I believe breeders at the time bred horned and the authors of the herdbook saw that as the norm and saw no need to stipulate otherwise. In my way of thinking since there was no stipulation as to horned or polled(and no photographic evidence of polled) this is strong evidence polled was not acceptable or did not exist. I believe if polled existed, they were selected against in favor of the horned. I don’t believe Godstone Esmeralda was 100% Dexter and a miracle cow with a polled gene mutation. I believe the only source of the polled gene in the American Herd is credited to Saltaire Platinum. I also suspect there were other American breeders involved in unscrupulous breeding practices that produced polled dexters through crossbreeding and registering those cattle as being sired by platinum since his offspring were approved for registration by ADCA and no DNA testing at the time to prove otherwise. Thus, there could very well be other unknown sources of the polled gene in the American herd. If there were any polled genes showing up in the early Kerry and Dexter Irish herd from early crossbreeding with imported polled cattle, I believe those genes disappeared because they were not selected for. There is no clear, proven path of polled from the 1800’s to today or hard evidence and facts to prove otherwise. Again, the absence of proof is not in and of itself fact. I am new to Dexters, but these are my current opinions about the horned/polled controversy.

[cascade]

Judy,

Let's precisely define "Dwarf" in words we believe Lady Loder (Grinstead) might have used.

Dwarf Cattle = Cattle that are exceptionally shorter than typical, with shorter legs.

Horns aside,  this 3 year old non-chondro Dexter bull fits that description perfectly.   He can be safely bred on other  similar  "Dwarfs"  and produces zero defects   He has Grinstead animals on his pedigree zillions of times.

[jamshundred]

NO! Kirk, let us NOT have another Kirk made-up definition.

let us just go with the CORRECT definition and description as published in the mid 80’s by the professor, and again published by the Royal Dublin society and again published in breed standards.  

That at is a chubby little bred-down bull, but he is an attempted replica.  Probably would fit in well with a number of other invented new breeds.

[yellowhouse]

Kirk, do your polled dexters carry the Chondro gene?

[cascade]

Yellowhouse, my herd is tested free of Chondrodysplasia. In making breeding decisions, I follow the 1890 Irish Dexter Breed standard published by the Royal Dublin Society, which says all Dexters must be red or black, and ALL must have short legs, deep bodies, and thick beefy quarters. Chondrodysplasia can give you those proportions, but only 50% of the time. True-short (non-chondro) genetics can give you those proportions 100% of the time, as the 1890 breed standard required.