A2 Milk Genetics

[lonecowhand]

Are any among you actively breeding for A2 milk producing cows? Or, who presently has A2A2 animals at this time? Thanks

[genebo]

My Windridge Line is exclusively A2/A2. Ms Fermoy's line is not, although it is a goal. Adam One of Paradise is the blend of the two lines and he is A2/A2, the result of his breeding.

[lakeportfarms]

We have a couple dozen or so that are A2/A2. Most of our chondro positive breeding bulls are, the two non-carrier bulls that we are currently using are A1/A2. 5 or 6 of our traditional girls are A2/A2, but all but one of the carries red ones are A1/A1. Dolly is our only A2/A2 carries red girl. Dolly has a very nice build and udder, and she also has the most attractive face to us, so we're hoping for a little carries red bull calf out of her next spring.

[lonecowhand]

Thanks, did you both breed for that , or did the shorties already have that in their make-up? Gene's are sort of cut and dried, but Hans, are you breeding with that in mind (actively selecting) or is it just testing out that way? Do you know of others, perhaps not forum participants, who are breeding with A2A2 in mind?

[lakeportfarms]

Lonecowhand, with traditional lines Dexters carrying red, you sorta take what you can get right now! Shadwell the bull is A2/A2, so his calves will be a bit of an improvement in the A2 department. We were lucky with him. He is such a nice bull that even A1/A1 I'd still use him. In many ways he was a blessing, just as we are preparing to send Mike off he's helped ease the loss(I made the appointment for Monday). He is sooo... short! Shorter and smaller than Mike, who wasn't that big himself.

That said, I am very happy with Matilda, Sunshine, Dolly, and Dora,our carries red girls, and of course our all red girl Lady II in all other aspects. Dolly is the A2/A2 girl, and she is out of Dinsmore Farm Comet All the others are out of Lady I or Sunshine and Matilda. Lady I has proven a challenge to get bred. She was awfully fat when we got her, and though she's lost the weight now, I think her excess weight played some role in the ability for her to breed now.

I think some people have started to realize that some very nice Dexters are being pushed to the side just because they are not A2/A2, and that is a good thing because these Dexters have a lot to offer in other areas. However, there are still some people who are breeding with way to much emphasis on A2. I've seen more than a few bulls that have no business staying intact, but they're A2/A2, and often times polled, so they'll end up breeding somewhere, most likely.

[lonecowhand]

Oh,No, I am not advocating anything regarding A2A2, and certainly not that ANY traditional dexters get left out of their ability to add to the remaining gene pool. I'm more interested in whether or not the A2A2 gene pairing was a haphazard occurrence, or if started out that way and has been bred out over many generations, since no one knew it existed.
Like, all of Genes Windridge line are A2A2, but were they always, prior to his efforts? Did circumstance or effort produce the A2A2 in Dexters?
Whether or not the genetics are selected or natural, it seems to me to be a good thing to have in your own herds genetic pool, but not so good to overlook flaws in order to produce.
I get your point that Traditional Red is the important thing to worry about now, for those of you who are so fortunate.

[genebo]

When I first began testing Dexters for A2, the results were not uniform. My assumption that Dexters would be 100% A2/A2 was pretty far off. First results only showed about 40% to be A2/A2. It was a shock to discover that some were actually A1/A1.

It was only by the grace of luck that the Windridge Dexters all were A2/A2. There was no way for Mrs. Lombardi to have known what the A2 status of her herd was. She had chosen a bull, Reality Dugan, who happened to be A2/A2. She had then used him over her selection of cows, which also happened to be either A2/A2 or A2/A1. The offspring turned out to be A2/A2.

This was fortunate, because Ms. Lombardi was concentrating on other traits. Once her herd was all A2/A2, all the offspring would be, barring an introgression.

Over the years, I bought Dexter cows with outstanding conformation, without knowing their A2 status. I brought them here, bred them to Brenn, and got a percentage of offspring that were A2/A2. I kept some of these and sold their mothers to people who were not seeking A2/A2 cows.

Beauty of Paradise is a good example of this. Her mother, RP Short's Millie Dew, was a daughter of Doireann o'Briar Hill. I greatly admired Doireann, and was lucky to get Millie Dew. However, Millie Dew was A2/A1, so I ended up keeping her daughter, Beauty, and seling Millie Dew. My herd still contained Doireann's features in an A2/A2 cow.

My accident wrecked my herd. I was forced to sell Dexters that figured prominently in my future breeding plans. I'm virtually starting over, but with the core genetics that created those I was forced to sell. If luck is with me, one day I will re-create the herd I had, and the rest of the Dexter world will benefit from the ones that went to new homes.

Keep your eye on Vera J of Paradise and Adam One of Paradise. Beauty of Paradise and Alainn of Paradise. Rose of Paradise and Kayla of Paradise. These are outstanding Dexters in their own right and are also A2/A2. Their new homes should have fresh calves within a year.

Armstrong of Paradise is the son of Brenn and Windridge Bantrybeth, the cow I label "The best Dexter Cow that Ever Lived". He is available for AI. Austin of Paradise is an outstanding shortie bull, made in Brenn's image. Paradise Tullamore Dew is Beth's son by Windridge Nollaig, and is responsible for many beautiful Dexters.

When shopping for A2/A2 Dexters, follow the trail of these and you should find some that you would be proud to own.

[Deleted]

So is there a method to developing a A2/A2 herd
or is it the luck of the draw ? Does Sire control
or Dam ?

[cascade]

Our herd (the Cascade Herd) of about 40 Dexters is swimming in A2/A2 with no A1/A1
Our original herd sire was Red, Homozygous Polled, and A2/A2 (I think he was the very first red homo-polled A2/A2 bull)
A2 testing did not exist way back then, so I guess we got lucky.
The gene is a very simple gene with two co-dominant choices (alleles).... A2 or A1.
All males and females are one of three combinations.... A2/A2 or A1/A1 or A2/A1
Both the sire and dam have equal control over the calves

A2/A2 X A2/A2 = 100% A2/A2 calves
A1/A1 X A1/A1 = 100% A1/A1 calves
A2/A2 X A1/A1 = 100% A2/A1 calves
A2/A2 X A1/A2 = 50% A2/A2 calves and 50% A2/A1 calves
A1/A1 X A2/A1 = 50% A1/A1 calves and 50% A2/A1 calves

Best way to increase the likelihood of A2/A2 in your herd, is to only use A2/A2 bulls, but doing that may exclude some otherwise terrific bulls.


PS. There still are no big independent scientific double-blind studies proving the benefit of A2 milk, or any harm of A1 milk, although one tiny study showed enough results to prompt a larger study to be conducted.

[genebo]

The method for breeding A2/A2 offspring involves using a bull and cows that have at least one A2 gene apiece. Each will contribute a single gene to the offspring. You hope it will be the A2 gene.

An A2/A1 bull over an A2/A1 cow will produce an A2/A2 offspring about 25% of the time.

An A2/A2 bull over an A2/A1 cow will produce an A2/A2 offspring about 50% of the time. The same is true if the cow is A2/A2and the bull is A2/A1.

Using an A2/A2 bull over an A2/A2 cow will always produce A2/A2 offspring.

I used an A2/A2 bull over an A1/A1 cow. I got 3 heifers, each one was predictably A2/A1. Breeding the heifers back to the A2/A2 bull produced an A2/A2 offspring first try.

Sometimes luck is on your side.

[wvdexters]

We were very lucky with our first 2 dexters. Half sisters and untested when we purchased them both turned out to be A2/A2. A little while later we added Caitlyn carrying red and also A2/A2.

Judy's bull Legacy Jams Dunder (beautiful bull with Legacy bloodlines also A2/A2) sired our first yr's calves. Knobley Esther Lynn (Caitlyn's first calf (obligate A2/A2) inherited the red and is now part of Carole and Clem Nirosky's herd at Morning Star Farms in Ohio.

This year Caitlyn gave us our little Traditional Red bull calf. Knobley Macklynn (sired by Rainbow Hills Big Mac) is ee/bb (red carrying dun) and A2/A2. We plan to have him collected when he is of age so he will be available to traditional breeders for AI soon. He is the grandson of Rainbow Hills Sweetie (Caitlyn's dam).

With the addition of Gene's 2 lovely heifers to our herd our foundation is in place. Vera (A2/A2) and Triu (A2/A1)carrying red) are just true sweethearts, and are such fine, Beautiful Dexters. They are the "dream" heifers. I know how hard it was for Gene to part with them; with the circumstances it made it hard for all of us. And we so appreciate him letting them come here with us. I can't wait to see the future calves they will be producing with Macklynn; for us here and for the Traditional American Red preservation effort.

[lonecowhand]

Cascade, I'm sure there have been no big studies, it would not be advantageous to big dairies and the industry in general to have the demand reduced in favor of something they can't or won't provide.

I don't know if the advantages are anecdotal or actual, but perceived value affects demand!

Can anyone weigh in on advantages, Or reference (or start) another thread? Thanks

[jamshundred]

Cowhand,

Before I forget. Ron Keener has an east coast route in the works. . . . ( TravelwithRonKeener). I see he is going to Vermont, then dropping down to Harrisburg PA and then back across country. I think west coast is also on the schedule. With gas prices low he might be a good option for you to get some eastern bloodlines. I know that Armstrong of Paradise is for sale and there are other great bloodlines in the east available.

Back to A1/A1 -   I've only had one cow pass my way that was A1/A1. She was a special cow so it was "worked around". I would be hard pressed to keep a Dexter that didn't have something very special to offer the breed that was A1/A1. I believe the original status of Dexters was overall A2/A2 just as that was the overall status of all milk producing creatures/humans in nature.

When it comes to A1/A2. . . . . don't throw out the baby with the bath water. If you have a good animal it can throw the A2 as easily as the A1. I've tracked it a little bit. . I thought for a while that one bull threw his A1 on males and the A2 on girls but then. . . the observation was turned on it's non-scientific arse.       

*I* am a believer in A2. Simply because it was nature's choice for milk producers and I know there was a good reason!  Just like horns were designed for good reason.   

Judy

[lakeportfarms]

Judy, all but one of our traditional Dexters that carry red are A1/A1, except for Dolly, who is A2/A2. Lady II, the red one, is A1/A1. You're saying I should keep them, right???

No, lonecowhand, you cannot take them off my hands...lol

[genebo]

Hans,

With a traditional bull that is A2/A2, every calf from one of your A1/A1 cows will be A2/A1. Breeding those calves to a traditional A2/A2 bull will get you 50/50 odds of getting A2/A2 offspring.

If you do it right, it's only 2 generations from an A1/A1 cow to an A2/A2 calf.

[jamshundred]

Hans, I believe that Dexters in the early formation of the breed, and perhaps for several decades in the US were A2/A2.  This is based on overwhelming percentages.  For instance. .  the Colorado herd is A2/A2.  Every single animal.  But that is to be expected as they were a closed herd for 40 years.   Every Peerless cow I ever tested was A2.  Every traditional cow in my herd. . . . .  . .. except. . . ...

When Gene began doing the A2 tests for me. .  the dun animals were coming in with A1 and in the beginning I thought that the A1 was solely from dun.  I really was not that far off.   I think the testing that has taken place, and the testing to come will show conslusively that the A1 DID carry on the color dun.  With the exception of two animals that I know of. . . . . I can find dun ( Woodmagic) behind A1 animals.  There were some dun animals prior to the Woodmagic importations to Canada in 1978, but those also came off English imports in the 1950's, and . .. the common thread there is Grinstead as in the Woodmagic lines.

Many know that PHA is traceable to the Woodmagic imports but most people do not know that the dun is also traceable primarily to Woodmagic with the exception of two animals in the records which came off the 1950 imports.




I know of two early animals that carried A1. . . but. . . both of them have had quetions raised regarding their pedigree.

Judy

[Donlin Stud]

Wow Judy. My educator.

I didnt realise dun was traceable primarily to Woodmagic (with the two exceptions). Info such as this needs to be documented.............well I suppose you just did document it the 21st Century way *S*

We have every shade of dun this year: dark near black chocolate to Miss blondie in the avatar picture, to golden yellow and various shades of 'dirty' browns. Same sire different dams so it was all very interesting indeed.

A2, we tested the herd and was pleasantly surprised. We did get two A1/A1 but they were destined for lawn mowing homes anyways.

And we have to stop doing this at sometime, surely so but for now we keep rehoming our A2/A2 bulls - some being dun carriers too  .
 
We are about to test this years moo-kids and whats the bet the two boys whose homes are eagerly waiting for them to let go of the apron-strings are also A2/A2 with a 99% chance the red boy will be a double-banger dun carrier too.

And the dun boy we will be keeping will be A2/A1......

Oh conformation gods be nicer to us please..................................


One day we hope to keep based solely on the A2, dun and red results.....................but until then I continue to wave goodbye as they leave home