Moving forward from here, to protect the breed...

[kwin]

Again, I am not trying to ruffle feathers. These cows are so very dear to me, but they are also a business, and there are breed standards I'm trying to breed for, so I try to keep the emotion out of the "business" part of it...I'm not looking to fight...I've seen plenty of it on all the forums and Facebook pages for years and am kinda tired of it. So, I'll say again, I am NOT looking to fight, just trying to find suggestions for common ground moving forward.

I think we all, even cascade , can agree that genetic diversity is paramount in any breed. We also all started with this breed because of all the qualities we tout on here and our websites:
-small, docile, dual/tri purpose, excellent forage converters, hardy, the "every mans cow"

Issue 1:
Whatever the reason each of us believes it is happening, many of us can see that there is an issue with the overall size of the breed, correct?

Issue 2:
Again, keeping the why it's happening out of it, many of us can see some changes in phenotype that make some animals harder to identify as Dexters.

Issue 3:
The fact that a bull who is so controversial is found in varying levels in the pedigrees of 85% of the American Dexter Herd, making only 15% not from that bloodline.

So, my question is how do you all think we should handle those 3 issues?

Again, I'd like to try to keep it on topic and only discuss those 3 issues for now.

Heck, maybe we could even try to not reply to posts we think are inflammatory, and instead just respond with how we'd address those three issues. Again, I KNOW there is a lot of history & bad blood between y'all, I've read a lot about it, but I also know how knowledgeable y'all are and many of us who haven't been around the breed as long would love to learn from all of you.

And I'd love to hear from ALL of you, even if you're still offended by the fact I'm still posting anonymously . I'm truly not "trolling", or trying to cause strife...seriously, y'all take care of that well enough without me.

This is our breed, and it's a little silly to keep lamenting over the fact that the barn doors should've been shut, when the horses have been running the countryside for the past 20 years...can we try to figure out how to move forward?

[Deleted]

We curently have Tranitional Dexters and will try to move
to Legacy at some point. How ever I believe there are two
Issues to resolve first.
Issue 1: Follow the money and require the show curcuits to
actually follow the guidelines. Measure and wieght.
Issue 2 : Quite being ANONYMOUS dont believe a computer
will shoot you.

[kwin]

Thanks blessings , I think that measuring and weighing at shows would definitely be a great idea. I guess first they'd actually need to implement standards, rather than guidelines though. I'm pretty sure either, or maybe both, Lowlines and Mini Hereford already do so it doesn't seem to be too far fetched.

<sigh> As to your issue 2, I don't know ANY of you personally and have only ever communicated with some of you through this board. I have seen that once some figure out who you are, they run over to your ADCA page to scrutinize the pedigrees of your animals and then they come up with an idea of what kind of breeder you are and then presuppose your motives as to the comments you are making. Then things can tend to get ugly. I don't want my name, or my farm name, connected to any ugly slander on any kind of open, public forum...as I said in the original post, this is a business. I've told y'all a little about my animals here and there, I hope I've shown that I do actually have Dexters by my words. And I honestly don't know why knowing my name changes anything...especially since I don't know any of you. I believe that you are all Dexter breeders who lean towards "traditional" Dexters and I've seen the pictures you've posted of your animals. I've not seen any of your websites, with the exception of the Legacy site, don't even know who else has ones...and if we met at an AGM, I'd never know which one of you was which unless you pointed it out to me...doesn't that make y'all anonymous to me, too? I'm not holding that against ya

Here, will this help?? As I've said before, I am a breeder of a fairly diverse little herd. I love all colors, even have a bit of that traditional red but y'all would think it was tainted by the smaller percentage of SP , & I like having a polled calf every now and then. I love Dexter horns, but just don't want any of my animals that I work with up close and personal every day to have them, so I am happy when calves are born polled so I don't have to have them dehorned, that's my prerogative & I love that some of y'all keep their horns intact. I have three that y'all would consider traditional, would love to breed them traditional even since I believe in the work y'all do to maintain those lines. The remainder have minuscule to small amounts of Platinum on their pedigrees. I breed for small, docile, dual purpose animals and hope to improve the already decent udders & in my herd. I don't have any Chondro carriers, but have no problem with those who breed for them, they are adorable. I also don't believe in throwing the baby out with the PHA bath water...am still working towards testing some of my animals with Wheatear in their pedigree, but have tested all calves & have never had one PHA positive, and would never sell a PHA positive calf unless it was a steer. I have sat by and watched the members of forums and facebook pages tear each other apart over every.single.trait...and I'm afraid the animosity and divisiveness will lead to the destruction of the breed. I try to always be considerate to y'all, although i do have to keep my snarky sarcasm at bay here and there...forgive me if one slips by every now and then

I guess if y'all need more than that, then I'll be happy to continue these discussions with lakeport, lonecowhand, dexterfarm, wvdexters, & cascade, but if love it if the rest of y'all joined in as well . If that's against the rules, then it'd be a shame, but I guess that's ok, too and I'll log off and deactivate my account and y'all can just talk amongst yourselves.

[kwin]

Eesh, now I went off topic :/ sorry

[lonecowhand]

Hi Kwin, what then are you looking for? Each of your concerns revolve around the legendary introgressions, and can't be undone.

The remaining 15% need everyones help, to protect the Breed.

What they can be is segregated; Keep Traditional Horned Dexters in controlled breeding populations of other like Traditional Dexters. If you have and want polled but you have a traditional animal in the mix, notify folks on this forum and get them (sell them) to someone who breeds them. If you know of someone who has a Traditional Dexter, lobby them to find homes with a chance to breed to like animals. Keep herds separate if you like both kinds.(Like Lakeport does)  Breed for what you like, but help protect the remaining few who come from the old lines.

It will be great if breeders can just brag about their new arrivals on this board, withoutgettingbashed, and be congratulated and praised unless they request a critique.
Every member should feel comfortable asking questions, and sharing experiences and advice. There's a lot of experience to draw from on this forum, Just start a thread.

There does not have to be inflammatory dialog, at all, but some topics invite it: "Mine are better" will start it every time.
I learned as a kid on a lake in the Midwest: Stay off the thin ice!

Bill

[genebo]

So many of the thoughts expressed above as being fact are really the teachings of the beef breeders. The thought that diversity is necessary and good is in direct conflict with the establishment and preservation of a breed. A breed needs it's members to be recognizably alike before it can be called a breed.

Some things that commercial growers grew up believing are simply not true when applied to a breed such as Dexters. Weight gain and rapid growth are in direct conflict with the traditional roles of Dexter cattle. They were selected to be just the opposite of what the commercial breeders wanted.

My dog has diverse genetics. She has 4 different breeds in her. She was one of a litter of 6 pups, no two alike. She is the opposite of a breed. She is a mongrel.

My Dexters have been selected and bred from historically correct Legacy or Traditional stock, with always an eye to preserving the breed. That is the factor that those who consider our cattle just a matter of business are ignoring. Our breed has a value that is not evident in their bodies, but instead exists in our hearts. Those who would sully our breed by outcrossing with a different, unloved breed are abhorrent to me.

Instead, they should follow the examples of the Livestock Conservancy and the Swiss Village Foundation. Their efforts go toward preserving the heritage of our beloved rare breeds.

[cascade]

Dec 2, 2014 13:00:20 GMT kwin said:

I think we all, even cascade , can agree that genetic diversity is paramount in any breed. We also all started with this breed because of all the qualities we tout on here and our websites:
-small, docile, dual/tri purpose, excellent forage converters, hardy, the "every mans cow"

Issue 1:
Whatever the reason each of us believes it is happening, many of us can see that there is an issue with the overall size of the breed, correct?

Issue 2:
Again, keeping the why it's happening out of it, many of us can see some changes in phenotype that make some animals harder to identify as Dexters.

Issue 3:
The fact that a bull who is so controversial is found in varying levels in the pedigrees of 85% of the American Dexter Herd, making only 15% not from that bloodline.

Maximum genetic diversity CAN be very bad for a breed because it makes the breed have too much variation to be considered a true breed.  Many of today's breeds started with only a handful of animals that conformed to very particular look and behavior.  A little of the right sort of genetic diversity can be good, but too much genetic diversity makes a breed too diverse and not a true breed.  Dexters have way more diversity than many breeds because dexters started from a larger number of founding animals from a diverse background of many other breeds.  A little LESS diversity would be good for dexters, if we gradually eliminate the larger genetics, eliminate any less-than-friendly animals, and eliminate any poorly conformed animals.

Issue 1 Size:
There has ALWAYS been an issue with the SIZE of Dexters because so many breeders have used the Chondro-gene to hide the true genetic height of the taller animals in the breed instead of correcting those taller genetics.  There are lots of chondro "shortie" dexters that have 50" dexters hiding in them.   Using the Chondro-gene to hide the true size of dexters, completely interferes with the process of selection for true size.    What line of animals has consistently compact dexters that breed true for their size?   The answer is the Woodmagic line because Beryl eliminated the chondro gene from her herd AND consistently used true-short bulls on true-short cows to create a line of consistent true-shorts.   It takes lots of WORK and time to create a truly compact herd of cattle.  We could fix the too large size issue in dexters within a decade if we all did what Woodmagic did.  That's the ONLY way to do it.

Issue 2 Phenotype.
In all breeds of any sort, there are phenotype changes over time because breeders' tastes in how animals look, change.  People breeding primarily for beef are going to choose beefier looking animals.  People breeding more for dairy aspects are selecting for more dairy looking animals.  The ONLY way to attempt to control pheno-type changes is by setting more strict phenotype standards and using educated show judges.   I've been shocked by some of the HUGE TRADITIONAL HORNED BULLS (and their offspring) that win shows... Often, the judges who are judging these shows are the same judges that are judging other big beef breeds.  When these HUGE Traditional Horned Bulls win, it encourages others to use semen from those huge beef bulls.   Having chondro-dwarfs and true-short and larger animals all in the same breed, makes phenotype judging a nightmare, especially when the judges are NOT dexter experts, but are often large beef breed judges.

Issue 3 (famous AI bulls)
This is a NON ISSUE in Dexters.  The most famous bulls in dexters were actually selected for compact size and HIGH RATED breed correctness (good dairy and beef attributes) and good behavior at the time of selection.  These bulls are primarily "Controversial" because a handful of folks have tried to find fault with these bulls because these famous bulls have been so VERY successful in helping Dexters maintain their compact dual-purpose nature, but they were a different color or different horn status.

As an example of why famous bulls are a non issue, here's a current AI bull that has the "Controversial"  Lucifer of Knotting  on his pedigree.   Some people would refer to this descendant as a "Lucifer-Line" animal.   Just because a famous bull appears on the pedigree, does NOT do much for the animal, because all the other animals wash them out.

www.dextercattle.org/pedigreedb/ponyweb.cgi?horse=13038&RegNumber=13038&Page=1&Sort=0

42" tall Saltaire Platinum was only used 63 times to create calves (too bad he wasn't used more, but his semen is essentially gone) that is NOT an overused bull, and each generation since he was used, his genetics are diluted.   If you went to the forum on Cattletoday.com and claimed a bull that was used 63 times as being "overused", they would laugh at you.

48" TALL Wieringa's Ned EJ has been used 77 times so far (with many more to follow).... as a comparison.








  

[kwin]

Hi genebo ,

You misunderstood my meaning for diversity, I think. By diversity I meant different bloodlines, not hybridization. I don't think any of us think it's a good idea for all the cows in the American herd to be closely related. I think certain breeders can most definitely line breed if they have the eye for it, but I don't think the majority of us have the experience to do so.

I never quite know how to write something on here. When I talk about how much I love my cows, I almost get a pat on the head and am told how lovely my cows must seem to me . While it is true that I love my cows, there is also an exchange of money & time that takes place because of them. I cannot afford for it to be a hobby, they are WAY too expensive. When I mentioned this being a business I was trying to show that I was vested in both my animals AND the breed, and I could talk about them and their issues without becoming emotional about it. I am taking the time out of my non-Dexter life to hopefully find the answers to these questions I have so I can be an ETHICAL breeder who makes wise choices for the breed and my herd. I can also keep from getting emotional and offended by, ahem , abhorrent personal attacks...at least until that is the only thing being written and discussed...and again the reason for my anonymity

So, back to my original post, am I way off base in thinking that those are issues that need resolved? Anyone have some suggestions on how to go about resolving them?

So, genebo, are you suggesting we should just toss out the 85% of the American herd who is "contaminated" by SP? Is that really the only way to move forward?

Ack...should I really even hope for an actual debate on what I feel are straightforward issues? You're kinda good at taking the wind out of a girl's sails there genebo. I suggested in another post that maybe folks wanting change within the breed associations should step up and volunteer...I see there are problems, and am looking for suggestions on solutions because I thought I might take my own advice. No ulterior motives in anything I write either, just a want for information & suggestions.

[Deleted]

As far as genetic diversity I run 2 separate closed herds. One of which has been a closed herd for over 50 years and will stay that way.

issue 1: need to not only be concerned with mature size but also with birth weight.

issue 2: the worst person you should listen to is a judge. They do not know anything about dexters they are judging to large commercial breed standards. Also some breeders pass on info/preferences to knew breeders but the info they are passing on is bassed on judges and commercial breeds not dexters.

issue 3: In my opinion and this will never happen. No one should use anything less than a traditional bull. regardless of the status of there cows.
 

[lakeportfarms]

Kwin, I think you have a pretty good grasp on many of the problems the Dexter breed is facing. I'd add education about the lack of history of the breed and why it was formed in the first place as probably the only area you haven't really mentioned. The problem we have now is that people are infatuated with the name "Dexter", and try to shoehorn whatever they have or produce into the name. We absolutely need breed standards rather than guidelines at this point in time. The breed is being redefined from a small horned breed, dual purpose, to a larger red polled breed, basically single purpose one. And that gets to the root of the problem...these Dexters are in large measure riding on the reputation of the Dexter of old (including chondrodysplasia Kirk).

I read somewhere in the bulletin there was a suggestion or motion made to add the classification "traditional Dexter" in the ADCA, and it was voted down. Until there is some recognition that the breed has been changing, and an appreciation of the Dexters and breeders that are interested in the traditional Dexter lines, you will see ever increasing numbers of pedigrees that are based on breeding for basically one or maybe two traits only. They are going where they perceive the money and growth are, to the detriment of the breed itself. There is some push back from a number of breeders now, either through a lot of public dissemination of information, like the most prominent being Judy with Legacy, but also Shaun Lord, Gene, myself and a number of others on forums like this or facebook.

My goal is to have a large herd of traditional lines dwarf Dexters. Where is my place in the ADCA? I get it from all sides, the chondro haters like Kirk, those who disparage the traditional Dexters (also like Kirk), and frankly the newbies who think that their polled Dexter that they purchased because they abhor the thought of dehorning is always going to produce polled calves. What a surprise when they find out it doesn't!

Regarding size...Kirk still doesn't seem to get it that the chondro cows will outproduce themselves 50% of the time, and that includes steers. When you raise "true shorts" (they are still long legged like it or not), that is basically the best you will ever get, including your steers. No matter what, my chondro carrier cows, including the really, really tiny ones like a couple of my 33-35" mature ones, will outperform themselves half of the time and are capable of producing a 42" tall steer that hangs in the mid 400's. There is no monopoly reserved to the non-carrier breeders to be the only ones capable of selecting for short heights, I can and do so myself with the dwarfs. Much of my herd is Woodmagic breeding, like Kirk seems to think is the gold standard for the "true short" Dexter. So...Kirk, what do you get when you combine chondrodysplasia with heavy "true short" Woodmagic breeding on BOTH sides of the pedigree, with an eye for selecting for small size? Really small chondro carriers and small "true short" non-carriers, right?

Oh, and thanks for the plug on Mike with his single instance of Lucifer 5 generations back, but otherwise a traditional Dexter, who is the sire of a SIX time national champion mature (chondrodysplasia carrier) Dexter cow Wieringa's Paula MD (the MD stands for Mike/Drewsilla, her dam). Paula, now retired from showing but still going strong, competed in what was, without question, the most competitive class in the ADCA AGM. I doubt there will ever be a Dexter cow with such a prolific record ever. Paula will probably produce 10-12 calves in her lifetime...I think we are at 80 or so with Mike with many more to come since he is a collected bull. Though we previously sold a lot of semen to people who had other breeds who wanted small calf sizes, we're reserving the remaining semen for Dexter breeders only now. R.I.P Mike, we miss you!

[cascade]

Dec 3, 2014 11:45:31 GMT lakeportfarms said:

Oh, and thanks for the plug on Mike with his single instance of Lucifer 5 generations back, but otherwise a traditional Dexter, who is the sire of a SIX time national champion mature (chondrodysplasia carrier) Dexter cow Wieringa's Paula MD (the MD stands for Mike/Drewsilla, her dam). Paula, now retired from showing but still going strong, competed in what was, without question, the most competitive class in the ADCA AGM. I doubt there will ever be a Dexter cow with such a prolific record ever. Paula will probably produce 10-12 calves in her lifetime...I think we are at 80 or so with Mike with many more to come since he is a collected bull. Though we previously sold a lot of semen to people who had other breeds who wanted small calf sizes, we're reserving the remaining semen for Dexter breeders only now. R.I.P Mike, we miss you!

What's an "otherwise traditional" dexter?  I thought the pedigree purists said that traditional pedigrees must have NO famous British Dexter bulls on their pedigrees ANYWHERE.  Are the purists going to rise up in arms and try to stop the spread of your "Non-Traditional" genetics?   I actually like your now-dead bull and would like to see a version of him WITHOUT any lethal genes.... PLEASE post a picture and measurements when you get one.  I like them true-short, thick, FRIENDLY, and with NO lethal genes... I prefer polled, but I'm happy to look at beautiful pics of horned bulls (I'm not a fan of de-horning).

Concerning that show-winning cow, she must NOT be a chondro-carrier because her online record doesn't show her as a carrier.... and why would she have only 10-12 calves in her lifetime?  Is there something wrong with her?  Dexters are supposed to be VERY LONG LIVED and prolific (that's a key feature).  A breeder of non-chondro dexters near me has had 21 calves (maybe more) out of some dexter cows and 18 is very common.   My current oldest cow is ready to have her 10th trouble-free calf born on our farm and I expect another 8-10 from her (18 -20 total).   She looks and acts like a 5 year old and she's the undisputed matriarch, and wouldn't surprise me if she lived to near age 25.  

If we're trying to "save dexters" it seems like we should only use sound genetics that are LONG-LIVED with healthy ,trouble-free lives and no early arthritis.

PS. Concerning HOMOZYGOUS polled bulls, they ALWAYS breed 100% true and 100% of their calves are polled every time, unlike chondro carriers that can NEVER breed true because they are forced to be heterozygous hybrids due to their lethal gene. 

[Deleted]

Dec 3, 2014 11:45:31 GMT lakeportfarms said:

Oh, and thanks for the plug on Mike with his single instance of Lucifer 5 generations back, but otherwise a traditional Dexter, who is the sire of a SIX time national champion mature (chondrodysplasia carrier) Dexter cow Wieringa's Paula MD (the MD stands for Mike/Drewsilla, her dam). Paula, now retired from showing but still going strong, competed in what was, without question, the most competitive class in the ADCA AGM. I doubt there will ever be a Dexter cow with such a prolific record ever. Paula will probably produce 10-12 calves in her lifetime...I think we are at 80 or so with Mike with many more to come since he is a collected bull. Though we previously sold a lot of semen to people who had other breeds who wanted small calf sizes, we're reserving the remaining semen for Dexter breeders only now. R.I.P Mike, we miss you!

         And here is a perfect example of a descendent of one of the dreaded 'import bulls', Lucifer, that one person has (until very recently) spent years vilifying because he has animals in his pedigree from the English Experimental registry. Just as now with Platinum, people were sleuthing pedigrees to avoid animals with Lucifer anywhere in the pedigree. Never mind that Lucifer (and Platinum) brought in fresh blood and many good qualities. Mike, "with his single instance of Lucifer 5 generations back", would have been on the reject list.

[genebo]

Come to the 2015 ADCA AGM and you'll have a chance to see a Lucifer descendant in person, on a plate. This one was steered. I heartily approve of that. Even so, he's still a butthead. Not at all like every other gentle natured Dexter I've ever owned. He's narrower through the hips than any other. The best thing he has goping for him as a beef steer is his chondrodysplasia. It keeps him calm and slows his movements, letting him put on fat. He should be very tasty. Chondro is good for making a good steer better.

Come see me and I'll take you to see the barn that a Lucifer descendant trashed. No humans were injured, although it was touch and go. I got a T-bone steak from him. It wasn't bad. It tasted better for knowing that the world was a safer place without him in it.

After seeing the damage he inflicted to the barn, fences and trailer when he went berzerk, I vowed never to own a bull with Lucifer in its pedigree.

The danger lies in a bull whose sire and dam both have Lucifer in their pedigree. That could be a lethal combination.

There is a place for everything and Lucifer doesn't belong on my place.

[lakeportfarms]

Dec 3, 2014 20:04:17 GMT cascade said:

Dec 3, 2014 11:45:31 GMT lakeportfarms said:

Oh, and thanks for the plug on Mike with his single instance of Lucifer 5 generations back, but otherwise a traditional Dexter, who is the sire of a SIX time national champion mature (chondrodysplasia carrier) Dexter cow Wieringa's Paula MD (the MD stands for Mike/Drewsilla, her dam). Paula, now retired from showing but still going strong, competed in what was, without question, the most competitive class in the ADCA AGM. I doubt there will ever be a Dexter cow with such a prolific record ever. Paula will probably produce 10-12 calves in her lifetime...I think we are at 80 or so with Mike with many more to come since he is a collected bull. Though we previously sold a lot of semen to people who had other breeds who wanted small calf sizes, we're reserving the remaining semen for Dexter breeders only now. R.I.P Mike, we miss you!

Concerning that show-winning cow, she must NOT be a chondro-carrier because her online record doesn't show her as a carrier.... and why would she have only 10-12 calves in her lifetime?  Is there something wrong with her?  Dexters are supposed to be VERY LONG LIVED and prolific (that's a key feature).  A breeder of non-chondro dexters near me has had 21 calves (maybe more) out of some dexter cows and 18 is very common.   My current oldest cow is ready to have her 10th trouble-free calf born on our farm and I expect another 8-10 from her (18 -20 total).   She looks and acts like a 5 year old and she's the undisputed matriarch, and wouldn't surprise me if she lived to near age 25.  

Well, I can't really predict her lifespan.  As far as I know she's doing fine.  However, I do know they have a homozygous red polled bull that they're using extensively.  If she was bred to him she may have a problem with calving, given that they've had a couple of 65 lb. calves out of this bull already from very small cows.  I've heard of more than a few high birthweights and problem calvings from those out of heavily polled herds, and had one myself with a cow we purchased bred, that was out of a polled bull and bred back to him.  The calf died and we very nearly lost the cow except for our intervention.  Of course if your cows are large, then the higher birth weight doesn't pose as much of a problem.  I much prefer the calves we have had out of Mike.  Some as low as 23 lbs, but averaging around 28-30 lbs.

BSwatcher, nice name you have there, is that the one you use on Olga's site?  In any case, like it or not, I think it's well known the Lucifer, Platinum, etc. ship has sailed, and we ourselves have a number of Dexters here with some Lucifer (and a couple with Platinum) in their pedigrees.  They're fine animals, some are actually fairly small, although I wouldn't get within 20 feet of the heavy lines Platinum cow (Shelby) we have for a week or two after she's calved.  If they are not heavy in these lines I don't think it usually poses much of a problem.  What I DO have a problem with are the single trait selection folks that go back over and over to either, but especially SP genetics.  They are the ones that are changing the phenotype of the Dexter.  And to add insult to injury, they're taking the HORNED bulls from polled Dexter breedings and selling them off, rather than putting them in the freezer.  Use them for beef, for crying out loud, or sell them as a grade bull to somebody who has grade animals.  And please do not breed polled bulls to traditional cows.  If you have a nice one, I'll trade one of ours with polled genetics to you in exchange if you want polled animals.  And if you think you're improving your polled genetics by mixing in traditional horned cows, then I guess that's a tacit admission that you can't do it, and retain the true Dexter phenotype, without them.

If you think about it, Dexters don't do polled very well at all.  They do horned beautifully, however.  The ONLY way to get homozygous is to have polled on both sides of the pedigree, and if you're breeding him to a heterozygous polled cow, the calf may be polled him or herself, but also could be heterozygous polled and could produce HORNED calves.  That's not breeding true, and compared to breeding true polled breeds like Lowline Angus or Galloways, is a major fault, since you can get small compact 100% polled all the time from those breeds.  I've seen more than a few Lowlines and Galloways that are as small if not smaller than some Dexters out there.  If I were looking for polled as one of the top criteria, I'd select one of those breeds for that reason.

[Deleted]

Dec 4, 2014 12:44:08 GMT lakeportfarms said:

Dec 3, 2014 20:04:17 GMT cascade said:

 "and we ourselves have a number of Dexters here with some Lucifer (and a couple with Platinum) in their pedigrees.  They're fine animals, some are actually fairly small, although I wouldn't get within 20 feet of the heavy lines Platinum cow (Shelby) we have for a week or two after she's calved.  If they are not heavy in these lines I don't think it usually poses much of a problem.  What I DO have a problem with are the single trait selection folks that go back over and over to either, but especially SP genetics.  They are the ones that are changing the phenotype of the Dexter." "If you think you're improving your polled genetics by mixing in traditional horned cows, then I guess that's a tacit admission that you can't do it, and retain the true Dexter phenotype, without them."

Lakeport, my point exactly. There are these sweeping generalizations demonizing 'import' bulls. As you say, "they are fine animals, some are actually fairly small". In my experience of animals with Platinum up close in the pedigree, these animals are on the small side, in fact have been smaller than my average sized 'traditional' calves. My largest cow ever was a so-called 'legacy' cow. Bred to a non carrier small 'traditional' bull, she birthed the largest calf that I have ever had here, a heifer. I believe her large size was due to the hidden genetics for size in her dwarf (all old US line) dam. A few well known American breeders have done wonderful things with Platinum lines and even "Lucifer both sides" Dexters. I don't see any way that Platinum can be blamed for large calves/problem births.  I just sold a Plat. background cow I would have rather kept, as she was so well-built with a perfect udder and teats and so very easy to handle and homo A2, because she was a really good fit for the new owners. Along with her polled Platinum grand-daughter heifer calf, dainty, pretty and very correct. You have had a wonderful relationship with your bull Mike, many fine offspring and more to come through AI. This animal and others like him and like the ones I just sold, may well have been rejected as breeding stock because of the ten year campaign to discredit 'import' bulls, due to the heavy influence one person can have using the internet. What a shame. My experience with Lucifer line cows (incidentally, through the same line as your Mike), added maybe an inch or two over my other lines, along with great temperament, better feet and heart girth, and extra milk and yet (some) people are sleuthing pedigrees to avoid animals with these bulls.

[cascade]

Note: In the above post, by bswatcher, the quote sorta appears as though it's by me(cascade), but it's actually by lakeportfarms...

[genebo]

It's amazing that some people can buy into the tired old fallacy that a Dexter can actually be something that it is not. The fallacy that a dwarf Dexter is actually larger than it measures is oft repeated. How idiotic!

A variation is the "hidden genetics" theme.

A Lucifer descendant that goes berzerk may occur in only a small percentage of all Lucifer descendants. That means that an awful lot of Lucifer descendants are not mean and will not go berzerk when they reach maturity. However, telling a story about one Lucifer descendant that wasw not mean and did not go berzerk does nothing to disprove the fact that a few will.

They legend of the Dexter that is actually larger than it measures was spread through numerous repetitions by Carol Davidson and her disciples. It was based upon a statement made about a small sampling of Australian Dexters, some of whom were admittedly part Angus. In general, it went like this: A dwarf Dexter that measures 38" has a "concealed" size that is 5" to 7" taller.

Who purports to know what this means? A guess is that a dwarf Dexter will always produce offspring that is 5 to 7 inches taller that the parent. That is what those who repeat this want us to believe. In fact, the sizes of these few Dexters had nothing to do with the offspring, but with the parents. The parents' (including the part-Angus parents) averaged 5 to 7 inches taller than the few dwarf Dexters they measured.

There was nothing scientific about this. They didn't measure and compare the non-dwarf offspring to the dwarfs. No one knows how big they were.

Throughout Dexter history there have been many photographs of Dexter herds. Although measurements were not reported, the photos showed herds that were fairly uniform in height. There is also quite a bit of modern testimony about the subject. Breeders of dwarf Dexters constantly report that this myth about height is false.

My own dwarf bull has 67 descendants registered with the ADCA, as well as a great number of descendants that are not registered. For a long time, every one of his offspring grew up to be shorter than the dam. Then finally, a bull was born that was taller than his dam and grew to be taller than the breed standard. One out of all those offspring. A while later, a female was born that grew to be an inch over the breed standard. She was rebred to Brenn and produced a small heifer.

In the meantime, the offspring from my dwarf bull continued to be smaller than average. Many are smaller than he is. That includes his non-dwarf offspring as well. One of his non-dwarf sons is available for AI that is 4 inches shorter than the breed standard.

Now think about how true the fiction that a dwarf Dexter has "concealed genetics" that proves it to be taller than it measures. I repeat, idiotic.

We all know that the average dwarf Dexter is shorter than it non-dwarf siblings. How much shorter? The answer is found right in the canon bone. The chondrodysplasia gene affects the growth of the long bones. Read "the leg bones". The legs of a dwarf Dexter are shorter, therefore it's belly is closer to the ground. Yet check the height of the chest in both siblings. They are the same. The length of the body. The same.

It is actually the short legs that make the body appear to be longer. That is why show judges, trained to judge beef cattle, favor dwarf Dexters over non-dwarf. If you want to win a ribbon at a show, take your best dwarf Dexter. Like one of my bull's dwarf heifers, that won the 2012 ADCA AGM Adult Senior Heifer class in one of the largest fields ever.



Gradwohl used a dwarf Dexter bull to bring down the size of a multitude of other breed cows. My neighbor used a dwarf Dexter bull over his Angus beef cows, to produce Dangus calves. They reliably grew to about 3/4 the size of an Angus. That dwarf Dexter influence was definitely responsible for bringing down the height of those calves. Yes, that includes the non-dwarf Dangus calves. He never measured his calves as they were ready for slaughter, but could easily see that they were all within a small range in height. Hanging weights were practically the same, also.

The only reason for choosing not to keep dwarf Dexters is the fear of bulldog calves. Breeding indisciminantly among dwarf dexters carries the possibility of producing a bulldog calf, so keeping dwarf Dexters requires a little extra care to avoid ever producing a bulldog calf. This can be as simple as keeping a non-dwarf bull as a herd bull, thus eliminating all possibility of a bulldog calf. The reverse, keeping a dwarf bull and all non-dwarf cows, also eliminates all possibility of a bulldog calf. Keeping a mixed herd requires the most care, controlling breeding so that dwarfs are never bred together. Fortunately, the DNA test is widely available, easy and cheap. With just the least bit of care, there need never be another bulldog calf.

Now you can see how little effort it takes to continue to raise Dexter cattle in the same form they existed throughout history, except without the possibility of bulldog calves. Many people are on board with this effort already. There is room for many more, though. The number of people who raise their Dexters to exclude this vital part of Dexter history is overwhelming. They are simply not willing to put out the little bit of effort to preserve such a valuable asset.

Come on, folks. Get a conscience. Don't be a part of the trend to turn the magnificent Dexter into just another breed.

[cascade]

So, it all boils down to this...  Simply burying your nose in distant paper pedigrees looking for issues does NOTHING for the breed.

If you want to protect the Dexter breed, then understand exactly what makes the dexter breed special and unique, and then select for those traits generation after generation:   

1. 100% compact-framed animals, not too tall.
2. VERY friendly, safe, and easy-to-manage bulls.
3. VERY friendly and easy-to-manage cows that will let you work with their calves.
4. Cows that give birth easily to robust calves in all sorts of weather, with NO assistance (even as heifers)
5. Cows with good udders that can give a reasonable amount of milk, but not so much that they MUST be milked.
6. Maintain their weight easily on good-enough grass (and minerals) alone.
7. Hardy and have a good degree of naturally resistant to disease and parasites.
8. LONG LIVES...  Dexter Cows should live 20 years, Bulls should live to their teens (unless you eat them first)
9. Generally nice cattle conformation (good feet, strong legs, strong backs, etc.)

We all have less than perfect animals on our farms so it's always a work in progress.   The famous bulls have provided most all of these above traits (that's why they're famous), but lots of other less-famous bulls have these traits too.

Certainly, there will always be people who love horns vs. polled and that's simply a personal choice.  If you want to promote horns, then do so.  They're very nice to look at.

 

[Deleted]

 In response to genebo; there are dwarf Dexters that are not very small. Take a dwarf that is 42 inches, that cow can have an non-dwarf offspring in the 46-47 inch range. To me, that is a BIG cow. I do not know what the average size of dwarf Dexters is now but there were dwarf cattle the same height as non-dwarfs, so naturally their non dwarf offspring can mature quite a bit taller. It is not a myth. The example I gave was of a cow of 'traditional' lines. No other breeds in the background. I have seen other Dexters of old lines that I considered huge. A direct question to you genebo - are you insisting that there are/were no large/very large Dexters of traditional breeding? My comment about the dwarf dam was not a slur on dwarfs, but just a statement of fact. Let's phrase it this way: The cow's large size came from the dam's genetics all Old American and the dam would have been smaller than her much larger daughter due to the dam having the chondro gene. Therefore, the genes for size WERE PRESENT IN THE DAM but NOT EXPRESSED (therefore in that sense "hidden") due to her chondro gene. There. Does that work for you?
edited to add:  I only mention my very large cow of Old American blood, not to disparage that blood but merely to point out that everything not to be desired in the Dexter including over sized animals/hard births/poor temperament, seems always to be blamed on import bulls. A friend bought cows from a very well known Old American herd in the 90's - who knows what the herd was like overall (perhaps a few problem animals were the ones sold off) - but those gals were fence runners and never did settle down. My friends had a large herd and years of experience.

[lonecowhand]

Gene, who's that cow in the photo, and who with her?

I REALLY like seeing the handlers' belt above her back!

[Donlin Stud]

Dec 2, 2014 21:49:55 GMT cascade said:

Issue 1 Size:
There has ALWAYS been an issue with the SIZE of Dexters because so many breeders have used the Chondro-gene to hide the true genetic height of the taller animals in the breed instead of correcting those taller genetics.  There are lots of chondro "shortie" dexters that have 50" dexters hiding in them.   Using the Chondro-gene to hide the true size of dexters, completely interferes with the process of selection for true size.    What line of animals has consistently compact dexters that breed true for their size?   The answer is the Woodmagic line because Beryl eliminated the chondro gene from her herd AND consistently used true-short bulls on true-short cows to create a line of consistent true-shorts.   It takes lots of WORK and time to create a truly compact herd of cattle.  We could fix the too large size issue in dexters within a decade if we all did what Woodmagic did.  That's the ONLY way to do it.

I'm not so convinced this is the only way to control height.

Having one set of desired height figures for a diverse breed such as the Dexter is a reflection of 'conforming to the 'norm' of the standard and commercial bovine breeds' in our personal opinion.

We, our stud, work with two sets of height guidelines. The noted breed standard heights,for us, are for those Dexters not carrying a BD1 gene. Our second set of height guidelines is for our shorties and are 20% less.

Our assumption is based on eventually having our longies, born from our shorties who are within our 'shortie height guidelines' being not more than 20% taller hence still sitting within the today's single height guidelines as stated in the breed's standard.

[Donlin Stud]

Dec 4, 2014 18:01:50 GMT cascade said:

So, it all boils down to this...  Simply burying your nose in distant paper pedigrees looking for issues does NOTHING for the breed.

If you want to protect the Dexter breed, then understand exactly what makes the dexter breed special and unique, and then select for those traits generation after generation:   

1. 100% compact-framed animals, not too tall.
2. VERY friendly, safe, and easy-to-manage bulls.
3. VERY friendly and easy-to-manage cows that will let you work with their calves.
4. Cows that give birth easily to robust calves in all sorts of weather, with NO assistance (even as heifers)
5. Cows with good udders that can give a reasonable amount of milk, but not so much that they MUST be milked.
6. Maintain their weight easily on good-enough grass (and minerals) alone.
7. Hardy and have a good degree of naturally resistant to disease and parasites.
8. LONG LIVES...  Dexter Cows should live 20 years, Bulls should live to their teens (unless you eat them first)
9. Generally nice cattle conformation (good feet, strong legs, strong backs, etc.)

We all have less than perfect animals on our farms so it's always a work in progress.   The famous bulls have provided most all of these above traits (that's why they're famous), but lots of other less-famous bulls have these traits too.

Certainly, there will always be people who love horns vs. polled and that's simply a personal choice.  If you want to promote horns, then do so.  They're very nice to look at.

Hi Cascade

I was reading this post and as a newbie to the breed was agreeing with you. 
Then I read number 8 point and wondered why bulls aren't expected to live as long as cows?

[cascade]

Males of many types of animals often live shorter lives than the females because:

1. Males are often much larger/heavier than the females (larger, heavier animals often live shorter lives).

2. Males spend time chasing females, while females spend time getting the best nutrition they can.

3. Males jeopardize themselves in fighting with other males.

4. Males jeopardize themselves in getting into awkward, risky breeding positions on their hind legs.

5. Nature can tend to select for shorter-lived males because very old males can't compete with younger males anyway (but older females can still raise a calf). In nature, bulls would reach peak breeding age at 3 - 4 years, and then would start to go downhill at around 6 years and would likely be pushed out of the way by age 7 (by younger bulls in their prime).

[cascade]

Dec 4, 2014 19:56:31 GMT Donlin Stud said:

We, our stud, work with two sets of height guidelines. The noted breed standard heights,for us, are for those Dexters not carrying a BD1 gene. Our second set of height guidelines is for our shorties and are 20% less.

Our assumption is based on eventually having our longies, born from our shorties who are within our 'shortie height guidelines' being not more than 20% taller hence still sitting within the today's single height guidelines as stated in the breed's standard.

This seems like a pretty SMART way to deal with it.

So you would treat a 41" tall chondro bull the same as a 49" non-chondro
And you would treat a 39" tall chondro bull the same as a 47" non-chondro

Perhaps it should be spelled out that way in the AI catalogs...
"Consider this 41" chondro carrier to be as genetically tall as a 49" non-chondro"

So Saltaire Platinum (non-Chondro) at 42" at 3 years, would be comparable to a 34" tall chondro bull.   

[genebo]

That is Bennan of Paradise in the photo above. She was planned to go to the ADCA AGM show before she was ever born.

Mr. Townson was a frequent participant in Dexter shows, and had won several ribbons. He refused to have any chondro carriers in his herd, and was a little upset that the judges seemed to favor the shorties, awarding them more than their share of the ribbons.

We talked about this a lot, until I finally convinced him that the way to increase his share of the show ribbons was to join them, not fight them.

I arranged for him to buy a dwarf Dexter heifer named Sugar, from the Windridge line. He took her home and groomed her for the show ring. He took her to a lot of close-by shows and was amazed at how many ribbons she won and what praise she garnered. Unfortunately, Sugar's birthday was not the best for the national show. She would age out of the heifer class before showtime.

Therefore, he asked to buy the next short legged heifer born at Paradise Farm. I agreed. Bennan was born just at the right time. He bought her as soon as her sex was verified and all of her DNA results were back. She was just two weeks old. Immediately, he wanted to know how soon he could get her, to begin training her. I told him she couldn't leave here until she was 6 months old, giving her time to develop her body and to learn how to be a cow in a herd. It would take that long for me and my cows to do my part of the training.

When the big day came for me to take her to meet him and transfer her to his trailer, he had also gone to see Sergey and bought three shortie heifers from him. One of them was a dwarf horned red heifer named Red Bug. He took the 4 heifers home and began working with them. He quickly singled out Bennan as the best demeanor, with Red Bug close behind. He guessed that her red color would count for something in the show ring. He must have been right, because at the AGM show, they took first and second in the largest field of Adult Senior Heifers. Bennan first.

Then they were both entered in the Youth Senior Heifer class, where they took first and second again. This time, Red Bug won with Bennan second.

It's hard to beat a good dwarf Dexter in the show ring.

[lakeportfarms]

Dec 4, 2014 22:24:32 GMT cascade said:

Dec 4, 2014 19:56:31 GMT Donlin Stud said:

We, our stud, work with two sets of height guidelines. The noted breed standard heights,for us, are for those Dexters not carrying a BD1 gene. Our second set of height guidelines is for our shorties and are 20% less.

Our assumption is based on eventually having our longies, born from our shorties who are within our 'shortie height guidelines' being not more than 20% taller hence still sitting within the today's single height guidelines as stated in the breed's standard.

This seems like a pretty SMART way to deal with it.

So you would treat a 41" tall chondro bull the same as a 49" non-chondro
And you would treat a 39" tall chondro bull the same as a 47" non-chondro

Perhaps it should be spelled out that way in the AI catalogs...
"Consider this 41" chondro carrier to be as genetically tall as a 49" non-chondro"

So Saltaire Platinum (non-Chondro) at 42" at 3 years, would be comparable to a 34" tall chondro bull.   

Lol...Kirk, we'd all take you more seriously if you'd be a little more realistic with your figures.  I know where a few photos of your breedings are online, and it's pretty amazing how large some of the cows are that you have bred.  And these breeding are with at least 9 instances of SP in a 5 line pedigree.  Sort of goes against your claim of small friendly cattle.  I sure wish I could post a few of them.

This is one of Mike's progeny, Wieringa's Paula MD.  I think we can all agree she's a beautiful cow.  Why don't you post a photo or two of one of the best examples of an adult cow, from your best bull, so we can compare?

Edited to add, she's 7 years old in this photo.

[cascade]

That is a BEAUTIFUL cow (above) and the owners have SUPER-good eye for cattle, but if you factor out her lethal Chondro gene, you'd have to add 7 inches to the legs for comparability and that would make her VERY tall. Plus if you add 7 inches to her legs, the illusion of length somewhat disappears and she would look rather awkward. Since chondro's don't breed true, I'd like to see ALL of her calves. A cow is only as good as ALL of her offspring. If a good cow can only throw 50% or less of calves like herself, that's a problem.

IF the above cow was NON-Chondro and could breed true and could throw 18+ calves just like herself and could live to 20 years without arthritis, I'd offer over $10,000 for her (if I didn't have a closed herd), but as a 10 year old chondro-cow, she probably won't be around much longer. Chondro's usually have to be culled due to early arthritis by 11 or 12 years old. The chondro gene malforms their cartilage and cripples them.

PS. I'm not here to get in a contest of who has the best cows, this is a logical discussion of how to keep Dexters truly compact. Using the chondro dwarfing gene to hide the true larger genetics of cows does NOT help bring the true size down, it's just an illusion.

PPS. A few years back a regular cattle judge judged a Dexter show without knowing that some of the entries were lethal-gene-carrying dwarfs. He awarded first place to a dwarf without knowing it. When he later found out that he had given first place to a lethal gene carrying dwarf, he was disgusted and felt betrayed that no one had told him before the show. Most all other breeds culled out the lethal dwarfing genes long ago. The point of judging breeding stock is to judge their genetics and to judge their potential to raise consistent offspring like themselves. Chondro's can't breed true, so what's the point of judging them?

[Donlin Stud]

Cascade, black Dexters can't breed 'true' and neither can duns.


So do we start eliminating them from the Dexter breed also?

[cascade]

Dec 5, 2014 5:09:28 GMT Donlin Stud said:

Cascade, black Dexters can't breed 'true' and neither can duns.


So do we start eliminating them from the Dexter breed also?

EVERY feature of Dexters CAN breed true, except Chondrodysplasia

Breeding true requires homozygosity (identical pairs of genes)

Blacks CAN breed true (if you have truly homoyzygous blacks)
Truly homozygous blacks are ED/ED  B/B   (two black genes at the extension locus, and two non-dun genes at the brown locus)
If every animal in your herd had this homozygous combo, you'd only have black calves (unless there was a rare mutation)

Duns CAN breed true (if you have truly homozygous duns)
Truly homozygous duns are ED/ED b/b  (Two black genes at the extension locus, and two dun genes at the brown locus)
If every animal in your herd had this combo, you'd only have dun calves (unless there was a rare mutation)

Chondros can NEVER breed true because the homozygous condition is lethal.   Chondros are hybrids (heterozygous) and just like hybrid tomatoes or hybrid corn or hybrid cattle like black baldies, they can't breed true.

Now because Black, Dun, and Red are all equal in dexters, it doesn't matter if you have heterozgous blacks or heterozygous duns.

But height DOES matter in dexters, so if you have a dwarf cow that throws BIG bulls and cows half the time that's a problem... but most chondro breeders just keep using the chondro gene to hide those big genetics, rather than working on correcting those too tall genetics.

I must say that I like your HONEST 20% approach that you are taking so you can work on managing height in your entire herd in BOTH your chondros and non-chondros, and you wouldn't promote a 41" chondro bull as being "short" when he's likely got 49" genetics.

[lakeportfarms]

So I'd rather not do this, but since Kirk seems to enjoy throwing around the term lethal chondro gene so much and trying to discredit what many of us here do so well, I've about had it with the constant attacks and provocations.  Time to lay bare the examples behind all the words. 

Here is an example of one of his recent breedings (within the last few years).  She's still a pretty young cow in this photo. The cow that Kirk has bred here in this photo doesn't look very small, compact or Dexter like (if you consider size) to me!  Many (at least 8) instances of SP in her 5 line pedigree. How does a 42" bull that you purport SP to be throw something like this?  After all, as a cow she should be at least several inches shorter than a similar genetics bull, based on your own statements.  And if you're going to say that it's not a SP bull that produced this, then it looks like you are going the wrong way with your cow and bull selection with regard to height, doesn't it?  It looks like you have a LONG way to go to get anything like the photos you've shown of Woodmagic cows, or "true shorts" that come anywhere near resembling the photos that myself and Gene have posted above.  I could go into our pasture today and take 20 or 30 photos of mature long legged cows in our herd that don't come anywhere near the height of this cow.  For anybody who happens to stumble across this discussion board, now you have some comparisons to help you better understand what the protagonist here thinks is what a Dexter should be.  Decide which of these you'd rather have in your herd based on ALL of the information here.  Now, go away Kirk, practice what you preach about breeding for small, compact Dexters, and stop repeatedly denigrating what many other Dexter breeders produce, or be prepared to get some public push back, or a report to the ADCA ethics committee about your behavior toward other breeders and their Dexters.  I'm done here.



Edited again to add more information because I'm tired of this BS from Kirk and maybe I'll embarrass him enough to go away for a while.