|
|
Post by cascade on Dec 13, 2014 6:12:13 GMT
Polled Dexters carry the Celtic Variant polled gene, but this does not mean that it's not a fresh mutation within the Dexter breed. The polled gene is really just a broken (mutated) horn regulator gene, that gets wrongly copied, in the DNA replication process. Different genes have different rates of errors, some are rather frequent (perhaps 1 in 5000 or 1 in 10,000 copies). Each mutational copy error is not necessarily unique, due to a concept called Genomic Recurrent Evolution. "Certain mutations occur with measurable and consistent frequencies. The existence of mutational hotspots within the genome gives rise to recurrent evolution. Hotspots can arise at certain nucleotide sequences because of interactions between the DNA and DNA repair, replication, and modifaction enzymes. These sequences can act like fingerprints to locate mutational hotspots." The Celtic Breeds including Dexters, Angus, Herefords and others MAY share one of these mutational hotspots on a shared Celtic horn regulator gene, so when these fresh mutations occur, the mutations may all look alike. This could trick folks into believing that the gene must have arisen only once in the distant past and is simply being spread around the various Celtic breeds. Due to Genomic Recurrent Evolution, Godstone Esmeralda (Grandmother of Saltaire Platinum), may indeed have had a new fresh copy of the Celtic Variant polled gene, likely due to a dna copy error at a common Celtic Breed mutational hotspot in her sire's sperm cells (or possibly her dam's egg cell). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recurrent_evolution |
|
|
|
Post by jamshundred on Dec 13, 2014 13:54:44 GMT
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Kirk, you are exhibiting clearly definable characteristics of desperation.
I bet a $1.00 to a hole in a donut you will NOT find a single fellow breeder in the American herd, who being told there is a polled calf born to two horned parents would not start asking questions. . . .. . . and the first question would not be, " I wonder if it is a fresh mutation". hahahahahahahaha. Kirk, DNA testing of cattle was developed at UCD in the 1950's. Do you know how many advances had occured over three decades? By 1984 it was established science for various breeds. In 1984 a DNA record of the triangle of parents and progeny could have been made. When asked to provide a sample the owner ( not the original breeder) REFUSED as related to me by the person who made the inquiry. There is no record of the breeder or owner going to any lengths to establish ANY science on this issue. They could have. Please note. . ... there was NO attempt to establish "novel mutation" until this cow had transferred ownership and polled progeny born. . .. . . . . and by this time there were OTHER polled animals in the UK and owners wanted polled cattle in the registry. There was actually another bull assigned "novel mutation" at the time as well. Do you know the odds for two novel mutations at the same time? Astounding odds. And guess what. . . .not a one reported since. Fancy that. It seems to me to have been a "novel approach" to just silencing the debate and adding polled to the registry. In the US. . . .do you know there were a couple of failed attempts to try the same thing . . . . . . . . and with the involvement of the same person connected to this novelty. The true is. . . from my research. . .there was one case that might have had a chance of actually been a mutation, as the owner insisted there were no other cattle within 15 miles of him but mysteriously the head of the ADCA P&G committee, ( and breeder of polled lines from England ) never gave the owner any results for the samples that were submitted to ADCA for parentage verification even though the owner/breeder requested status reports repeatedly. He finally gave up and butchered the polled animal. I do have archived non-tested tail hairs he sent me on the cow.
We can work on solving this debate. UCD has offered a breed analysis test for some time now. It is limited in scope. .. . so if the outcrossing in the Platinum pedigree was one of the breeds we know was used in England that is not in the parameters of the analysis the results may lack pertinent information. Welsh Black and Murray Grey are breeds used on farms with interconnecting herds in the Platinum pedigree and a high percentage of farms had upgraded cattle with various breeds as well. We have learned since Legacy established DNA testing in the Dexter breed that not only are there occasions when the sire is recorded in error, there are instances where the DAM is recorded in error as well.
There is a current DNA marker panel on file at UCD of Saltaire Platinum submitted by Legacy and derived from semen in the past year or close to it. It is the only 16 marker panel of which I am aware. If there is sufficient information/sample, I will give permission for a breed analysis.
The cost of this test is $100.00 Any interested parties who would like to PLEDGE a donation - ( do not send money) may do so. Here or privately and I will keep everyone posted on the progress of the DCW breed analysis project relating to SP if there is any interest.
Here is the information on the UCD breed analysis:
|
|
|
|
Post by lakeportfarms on Dec 13, 2014 14:39:50 GMT
We can work on solving this debate. UCD has offered a breed analysis test for some time now. It is limited in scope. .. . so if the outcrossing in the Platinum pedigree was one of the breeds we know was used in England that is not in the parameters of the analysis the results may lack pertinent information. Welsh Black and Murray Grey are breeds used on farms with interconnecting herds in the Platinum pedigree and a high percentage of farms had upgraded cattle with various breeds as well. We have learned since Legacy established DNA testing in the Dexter breed that not only are there occasions when the sire is recorded in error, there are instances where the DAM is recorded in error as well. There is a current DNA marker panel on file at UCD of Saltaire Platinum submitted by Legacy and derived from semen in the past year or close to it. It is the only 16 marker panel of which I am aware. If there is sufficient information/sample, I will give permission for a breed analysis. The cost of this test is $100.00 Any interested parties who would like to PLEDGE a donation - ( do not send money) may do so. Here or privately and I will keep everyone posted on the progress of the DCW breed analysis project relating to SP if there is any interest. Here is the information on the UCD breed analysis: Run the test! Check is in the mail. If $100 is the cost of ending once and for all Kirk's "fresh mutation" ad nauseum.....it's well worth it! P.S. How much would it cost to curtail Kirk's use of the phrase "lethal gene" from every post ? |
|
|
|
Post by wvdexters on Dec 13, 2014 16:05:58 GMT
I AM IN!!!!!!
|
|
|
|
Post by cascade on Dec 13, 2014 16:11:28 GMT
I bet a $1.00 to a hole in a donut you will NOT find a single fellow breeder in the American herd, who being told there is a polled calf born to two horned parents would not start asking questions. . . .. . We have learned since Legacy established DNA testing in the Dexter breed that not only are there occasions when the sire is recorded in error, there are instances where the DAM is recorded in error as well. A very large number of small farmers don't understand genetics at all (just ask the registrars). Many don't understand how dominance works at all. Those few who sorta understand how dominance works often think horns are dominant and polled is recessive. Many folks getting a polled calf from two horned parents would simply think it was similar to how a red calf can appear from two black parents. If a small farmer who dehorns calves had one naturally hornless calf in a group of already dehorned calves, they might even think that they must have already dehorned that one, or they may not even notice it at all. Concerning Legacy records of sire and dam pedigree errors, you seem to be saying that pedigrees of Legacy Dexters can't be trusted because they may be riddled with errors. Are you going to do a breed analysis on all "Legacy" animals to determine how many of them have "non-Dexter genes"? You seem to be agreeing that we might have all sorts of occasional non-dexters slipping into Legacy and Traditional Dexters making their "pure" paper pedigrees untrustworthy. I guess they can't be labeled "Legacy" until they each have analysis performed on them. PS. Don't forget to tell the folks at UCD that dexters have a broad genetic background because in the beginning, any shorter animal of any breeding was labeled "Dexter". All dexters have scores of non-dexters in their backgrounds, so breed analysis might be tricky. Also tell them to compare Saltaire Platinum (lots of Woodmagic in him) to animals with a good degree of Woodmagic in them. Woodmagic developed as a closed herd for good number of generations, isolated from the general dexter gene pool. Any closed herd that is based on a tiny number of founding animals can have genetics quite different from the general breed after many generations. |
|
|
|
Post by jamshundred on Apr 22, 2015 20:31:23 GMT
O. M. Gosh ! ! The things I find on my computer when I am not even looking! ! !  |
|
|
|
Post by genebo on Apr 22, 2015 21:21:52 GMT
I like Clive. He has always been upfront about his Dexters, Angus, and crossbreeds. He seems to be trustworthy.
I had a conversation with him a few years ago about supplying a side of Dexter beef to my daughter, who lived in England back then. He was willing, but she wasn't. Said she was too far away and had no freezer large enough to hold it.
It's funny that this whole premise is based upon a Wikipedia entry. You do know that anyone can create or edit a Wikipedia entry, don't you? A history is kept of who creates or edits each entry. However, they accept whatever identity you give yourself when you make the edit.
This one has some hilarious editors: Mild Bill Hiccup, Battybot, Monkbot, Nick Number, and an assortment of editors identified only by their web address. Read the list closely and you can see some subplots, where one editor undid another editor's edits.
The only reason for relying on and believing a Wikipedia entry is that the information can't be found from legitimate sources.
I remember reading an account of how one man created a Wikipedia entry, only to have his nemesis find it and edit it, using epithets he favored. The editing went back and forth until th original poster gave up. The Wikipedia entry for that subject reflects the views of whoever persisted longest. Truth? It's not a factor.
|
|
|
|
Post by lonecowhand on Apr 22, 2015 21:26:35 GMT
Hmmm, "even though it's a registered Dexter, it's clearly an Angus" says Clive, and Clive knows his Angus! He won't be popular in some circles.  |
|
|
|
Post by jamshundred on Apr 22, 2015 22:03:39 GMT
Bill,
If you look at the date you will see that was back in 2011. Clive "used" to be very active in the breed. I have not seen him out and about for a while. He said he was going to stop registering and he may have. This will likely happen stateside as well. All fads find their bottom, but the tragedy is every single breed that has been part of a fad event. . . is all but destroyed and recovery is very slow if at all. The only thing that will help to keep the Dexters from crashing completely is the meat market. The high prices being asked, and being paid. . .cannot be sustained however in this breed. The target market cannot afford them, they are being fueled by hobbists with cash jingling in their pockets. I think the breed is in the midst of a pyramid scheme waiting for the top to tip. This is a breed that has a very high rate of attrition anyway, and I am waiting for the flood of opportunists to flee to the "real" beef breeds where the money is flowing faster than old Miss.
Judy
|
|
|
|
Post by lonecowhand on Apr 22, 2015 22:49:15 GMT
Jamshundred Judy, So Not on topic at all, how many generations of purebred dexter could be skipped from registration and still be able to be registered? If you get my drift... like if some of these breeders stop registering, can the progeny ever be brought back in?
|
|
|
|
Post by lakeportfarms on Apr 23, 2015 1:16:22 GMT
Bill, basically an infinite number, if you genotype the ancestors and pay the late registration fees that are imposed. The late registration is currently an additional $15.00 per occurrence. Some of us may already be doing this  ...not every Dexter deserves to be registered with the ADCA, etc... Some don't make it for many years, or have a streak of bull calves that are steered, and if the cow isn't anything spectacular to begin with, why not obtain the highest and best use, which is beef in many instances. The full compliment of testing is pretty expensive, and adding ADCA registration on top of it can often mean upwards of $125 in additional cost. At some point you're pricing people out of the market. Granted, we have a high enough number of Dexters that we can afford to be rather picky about what we keep, and not really feel too bad when they don't turn out as well as we'd like (temperament included). I'm not interested in chasing them to put a halter on, or having them run from me if I try to run some pour on down their back out in the pasture, etc... Granted, those with small herds usually have pretty friendly Dexters, but they also spend a lot of one on one time with them. On the other hand, we don't spend so much individual time with them any longer, and we'll truly have a good idea of the temperament of individual animals based on how they interact with us with that limited investment of time. The bad ones are not going to be registered or retained or sold (other than in white paper packages) |
|
|
|
Post by cascade on Apr 23, 2015 5:55:50 GMT
I saw a Legacy Dexter cow with a 60 pound birthweight calf out of a Legacy Bull posted on the other Dexter board.... Those Legacy Dexters sure do have BIG calves.... Maybe Beef Breeders should get some Legacy Dexters - those Legacies must be part Angus dextercattle.proboards.com/thread/4528/legacy-dexter-cow-calf-pairPS. You get what you select for. Selection is everything. Give me 20 legacy dexters (in isolation) and I could come back in 30 years with some VERY beefy angus looking cattle, or I could come back with some very jersey looking cattle, or some very shorthorn looking cattle, OR I could pay attention to the Dexter breed description and come back with some very DEXTER looking cattle..... Yep, Selection is EVERYTHING. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2015 15:25:06 GMT
I bought that cow. The calf was steered. Big calves are not the norm with Legacy cows. This year so far the smallest one for me was 37# heifer and the largest was 51#. The 51# was taken at a day and a half old so a full belly of milk may have boosted that some. The rest were in the mid 40s. The biggest calf I have had here was 57# out of a polled cow. I think that same cow had a bigger one when she was a heifer and was breed to a polled bull but I did not weigh back then so cant say for sure. Since she has been breed to our legacy bull most of hers have been in the low 50s.
Yes selection is important but it is not everything you have to start out with dexters. I believe you could change them a lot in 30 years however they would still not be the Angus,jersey or shorthorn you claim you can make. In fact if you are trying to change a breed that dramatically in that short of a period you would likely have very poor animals with many issues.
|
|
|
|
Post by wvdexters on Apr 23, 2015 16:26:31 GMT
Mike, Congratulations! Glad to hear that you got her. I was hoping she'd go to a traditional/legacy breeder and not get taken into a polled herd. Kirk, Yes, you got to make a point that sometimes even Legacy Dexters can have large calves. While it does happen occasionally; it is not the norm, and certainly shouldn't be something that should ever be bred for. But we all know this. The rest of your post well..... (IMHO) just a bit of a "dig"  to try to get something going. I do have to agree with you when you say that selection is important. Yes, it is SO VERY important. But instead of just shooting for some characteristics that we personally prefer; as Breeders of REGISTERED Dexter Cattle it is always our responsibility to breed for those Dexter Characteristics that were written down at the foundation of the breed. Not to pick and choose, and not to rewrite or perhaps "update" whenever the opportunity arises. |
|
|
|
Post by cascade on Apr 23, 2015 19:55:06 GMT
Kirk, Yes, you got to make a point that sometimes even Legacy Dexters can have large calves. While it does happen occasionally; it is not the norm, and certainly shouldn't be something that should ever be bred for. I do have to agree with you when you say that selection is important. Yes, it is SO VERY important. But instead of just shooting for some characteristics that we personally prefer; as Breeders of REGISTERED Dexter Cattle it is always our responsibility to breed for those Dexter Characteristics that were written down at the foundation of the breed. Not to pick and choose, and not to rewrite or perhaps "update" whenever the opportunity arises. If you insist on following every word of the old original breed description, with NO updates, it says Dexters must ONLY be Black or Red...... so NO duns. I believe dun was added later along with de-horning / polled. The early breed description also doesn't allow for dexters with long legs which one could take to mean that it doesn't allow for breeders using the chrondro-dwarfing gene where breeders say that half of their dexters have "Long Legs". Whew! I guess I'm happy that I don't have any dun "dexters" nor dehorned "dexters" and I definitely don't like "dexters" with LONG legs (that's a fault to be corrected).  |
|
|
|
Post by wvdexters on Apr 24, 2015 0:44:23 GMT
Kirk, I have to say you certainly have an interesting take on things.......... Must show a pretty good sense of humor!!
But I gotta give you credit though, you certainly are "sticking with it".
|
|
|
|
Post by jamshundred on Apr 29, 2015 0:49:30 GMT
Kirk,
Ease of calving has been a trait valued by Dexter owners since the foundation of the breed. Interestingly enough there was never a height standard until recent decades when owners became concerned about the increased size in the breed. There have always been tall Dexters. . . in the beginning they were called Kerry. I am sure there were at times hefty calves. Bones are heavy and the taller calves have more bone. So .. . the difference?
SOMETHING is being lost in the breed. I've had one problem birth in 23 years of breeding and never had a dead calf. That problem birth was a 21 year old cow. SOMETHING is wrong in this breed. Barely a day goes by that I don't read reports of vet visits farms, illnesses that were never reported as a problem in this breed, or calves being pulled, or dead calves on the ground.
YOU can see the size of problems. . . . . . but YOU cannot see what has been removed from this breed through the removal of the descriptive foundation genetics and through the introgression of other breeds which . . . without any doubt whatsoever leave behind their breed characteristics and displace ours.
Judy
|
|
|
|
Post by cascade on May 5, 2015 20:43:31 GMT
Kirk, Ease of calving has been a trait valued by Dexter owners since the foundation of the breed. Interestingly enough there was never a height standard until recent decades when owners became concerned about the increased size in the breed. There have always been tall Dexters. . . in the beginning they were called Kerry. I am sure there were at times hefty calves. Bones are heavy and the taller calves have more bone. So .. . the difference? SOMETHING is being lost in the breed. I've had one problem birth in 23 years of breeding and never had a dead calf. That problem birth was a 21 year old cow. SOMETHING is wrong in this breed. Barely a day goes by that I don't read reports of vet visits farms, illnesses that were never reported as a problem in this breed, or calves being pulled, or dead calves on the ground. YOU can see the size of problems. . . . . . but YOU cannot see what has been removed from this breed through the removal of the descriptive foundation genetics and through the introgression of other breeds which . . . without any doubt whatsoever leave behind their breed characteristics and displace ours. Judy My 39 pound calf out of cow with Saltaire Platinum on the pedigree 17 times, is 21 pounds lighter than the 60 pound "Legacy" calf recently sold. That "Legacy" animal must have a lot of "introgressions". dextercattle.proboards.com/thread/4528/legacy-dexter-cow-calf-pairSurely, if you are worried about introgression of other breeds, then you MUST be voting for Mandatory Genotyping of Heifers in the ADCA, so we can have PROOF of parentage. |
|
|
|
Post by lakeportfarms on May 6, 2015 12:46:33 GMT
The young red polled heifer in the photo below is available for sale. Look at that nice deep body! Even though I don't concentrate on polled Dexters, I do have a chondro positive A2/A2 red polled bull that would be perfect for her. I think she would produce some terrific Dexter calves bred to a nice bull like he is. Even though I wouldn't have to since she's already born, I could genotype and register this heifer in the ADCA, so all her subsequent calves would be parent verified. Proof of parentage as you say.  The only problem is that this is a photo of a registered red lowline angus heifer. Homozygous polled too of course. How does genotyping and parent verification solve the introgression problem? Before polled Dexters were admitted into the registry, doing something like this didn't make a lot of sense, and would raise a lot of red flags and if there hadn't been polled but there HAD been parent verification (and a physical inspection of the sire and dam), it would have been impossible. Today, I could do this for years and years, get guaranteed polled calves with really nice conformation and a lot of improvement over many of the Dexters out there. Rather than being a run of the mill Lowline Angus breeder, I could really develop a name for myself in the Dexter breed for producing such nice calves. Do you see the problem with that? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 6, 2015 14:00:14 GMT
red Angus? I would have called that one dun and people still swear that no one in the past would have confused the colors.
|
|
|
|
Post by jamshundred on May 6, 2015 17:28:30 GMT
Kirk,
The damage that has been done to the American herd has been done with UPGRADED cattle admitted to the registry. Cattle that American breeders have NEVER been able to breed, but DO have to compete against. How would mandatory genotyping have stopped that? Will it stop it now?
Other than obvious errors in the record system that ( IMO) are there because the registrars did NOT catch the errors, and that IS a function of any registrar, ( and it is interesting that I've not seen anyone list mistakes of this type from the English registry) can you name for me. . . . . . . one Dexter with progeny in the records that you know to be outcrossed.
As to the mandatory testing. The financial burden for this mandatory program is most felt by the "little people". The homesteaders and small farms. The sad truth. . . most of them have traditionally been breeders of traditional horned cattle.
We lost too many in 2004, more in 2009. We are struggling and fighting to save these bloodlines. We CAN NOT lose any more.
ADCA cannot bear the competition from Legacy, especially since they want to be the registry with the DNA typed Dexters, and they do not now, nor in the past, show any real concern for the breed or it's breeder/owners. If they did. . . .. ADCA would have been first with all the innovations Legacy has brought to the breed. Instead, they treat their members as ATMs.
Judy
|
|
|
|
Post by cascade on May 6, 2015 18:49:09 GMT
How does genotyping and parent verification solve the introgression problem? 3 options: Option 1: Do nothing and let Judy and the legacy crowd whine about new fresh possible introgressions till the end of time. In 2050 they can whine about possible introgressions that took place way back in 2040. Option 2: Immediately require genotyping AND parentage verification on every registered ADCA dexter including old ones (unless they're dead and we don't have DNA). - This essentially immediately eliminates fresh new introgressions, but it's a BIG, COSTLY implementation with HUGE immediate impacts to dexter owners. Option 3: Continue to phase in full parentage verification by requiring genotyping of females born 2016 and later, and perform FREE parentage verifications on all calves born to genotyped parents - This gradually eliminates the risk of introgressions over a period of 10-15 years. The implementation is easy, and least costly, and VERY low impact to ADCA members. This option doesn't preclude encouraging folks to gradually work on genotyping their older animals. The legacy crowd keeps bouncing back and forth in arguing that the ADCA proposal (option 3) is too much, then they argue it's not enough.... but essentially, they want the ADCA to do NOTHING so legacy can just keep complaining about ADCA not doing enough. PS. If you're worried about old past introgressions, you've got a LOT to worry about since 100% of dexters have tons of non-dexters in their backgrounds PPS. For those worried about the impact to homesteaders, is Legacy going to allow homesteaders to register dexters with legacy WITHOUT genotyping? If so, I've got a homesteading friend with polled Legacy dexters they would like to register in the Legacy system with no genotyping, of course. |
|
|
|
Post by lonecowhand on May 6, 2015 20:56:17 GMT
Who ghost writes your schtick?
|
|
...not every Dexter deserves to be registered with the ADCA, etc... Some don't make it for many years, or have a streak of bull calves that are steered, and if the cow isn't anything spectacular to begin with, why not obtain the highest and best use, which is beef in many instances. The full compliment of testing is pretty expensive, and adding ADCA registration on top of it can often mean upwards of $125 in additional cost. At some point you're pricing people out of the market. Granted, we have a high enough number of Dexters that we can afford to be rather picky about what we keep, and not really feel too bad when they don't turn out as well as we'd like (temperament included). I'm not interested in chasing them to put a halter on, or having them run from me if I try to run some pour on down their back out in the pasture, etc... Granted, those with small herds usually have pretty friendly Dexters, but they also spend a lot of one on one time with them. On the other hand, we don't spend so much individual time with them any longer, and we'll truly have a good idea of the temperament of individual animals based on how they interact with us with that limited investment of time. The bad ones are not going to be registered or retained or sold (other than in white paper packages)
to try to get something going. 