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Post by cascade on Apr 27, 2019 4:32:13 GMT
Godstone Esmeralda, born in 1980, is a primary source of the polled gene in many of today's polled Dexters. She is the grandmother of Saltaire Platinum. Godstone Esmeralda has a very pure pedigree, going back to the very old herdbooks. She qualifies as both "Traditional" and "Legacy". Her pedigree is more complete than 99% of "Traditionally Horned" Dexters. Very latest research in 2019, shows that every one of Esmeralda's parents, grandparents, great-grandparents and great-great-grandparents are direct descendants of the 1894 foundation "Harley Poll" line of Dexters. None of the animals on her five-generation pedigree have records of horns nor photos of true horns.  |
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Post by cascade on Apr 27, 2019 4:53:07 GMT
Every Dexter on Godstone Esmeralda's five generation pedigree descends from 1894 foundation Dexter, Harley Poll.  |
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Post by jamshundred on Apr 29, 2019 7:46:47 GMT
Ahhhh,
What a wicked web one weaves when first thou sets out to deceive.
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Post by lonecowhand on Apr 29, 2019 15:58:03 GMT
Polled the Traditional Way you use when you want polled, bred to a Polled animal.
By the way, they knew English back then, he was not called "Polled Harley".
I bet there was a reason.
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Post by cascade on Apr 30, 2019 0:00:34 GMT
The founders of the Dexter breed were very well-educated upper-class people, and they knew English very well... much better than most everyone here. Harley was the herd prefix so it comes first. "Poll" is a noun to be used in names. "polled" is an adjective to be used in descriptions. The "Red Poll" cattle breed was named as such in the 1880's when the "Red Poll Cattle Society" was established. In a sentence, one could say "The Red Poll Cattle Breed is red and polled". "Red Poll" is the name of the breed, "red and polled" are adjectives describing the breed. In another sentence one would say "The 1894 foundation Dexter cow named Harley Poll, was black and polled" www.redpoll.org |
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Post by jamshundred on Apr 30, 2019 13:32:05 GMT
Kirk, rather than go through each day of your life obsessing with a means to legitimize outcrossed polled Dexters that you were saddled with and descended from a GRADE bull . ., your preservation heart aching to legitimize these outcrosses in a breed you thought were as advertised, "minor rare breed, small in number with unique foundation traits". . . . . why don't you just go get some traditional. . . or even Legacy bloodlines and make your heart happy? I will GIVE you some cows to begin the preservation journey. .. . .one of paramount importance to preserving the unique traits of the breed. You will be amazed at how a little chondro cow will win your heart and soul.
Judy
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Post by cascade on May 3, 2019 14:03:30 GMT
Judy, That's an incredibly amazing and kind offer to share your wonderful Dexters with me. I'm honestly touched by it. I do have a soft spot for the shorter Dexters. I've got some that are very short and very sweet that I would likewise love to share with you. Wish you were closer.
The original "Dexters" were a mix of true-short Dexters and chondro-Dexters. With testing, we can tell which is which. You can have an entire herd of true-short (non-chondro) and very sweet Dexters, since they can breed true. The originators of Dexters made it clear that they wanted true-short Dexters and they made it clear that chondrodysplasia was a problem to be solved. There are true-short (non-chondro) Dexters with ALL the features you love.
Concerning preservation, all Dexters come from other breeds. Dexters started as a mishmash of other breeds. Most every gene in Dexters has come from non-dexters. Even black genes and horn genes and chondrodysplasia genes in Dexters came from non-dexters.
Poll genes and horn genes, and red genes and black genes trace back to the 1890's foundation of Dexters. Foundation "Dexters" could be any breed, as long as they met the 1890 Dexter breed standard which said they should be red or black, and 100% of them should have short legs and thick beefy bodies. The 1890 standard said nothing about horns (so both horns and hornless were allowed) and didn't allow for the multiple body types involved with chondrodysplasia.
The only way to preserve the original Dexters is to make a list of the traits that the originators intended for the breed, and to select toward those traits generation after generation.
Compact
True-short
Beefy
Efficient
Hardy
Friendly
Safe
Productive
Problem Free
Red or Black (no white, no brown)
While all Dexters have some holes in their pedigrees, Godstone Esmeralda (polled Dexter born in 1980), has one of the most complete pedigrees of any Dexter and she met the 1890 original Dexter breed standard. She is a pure Legacy Dexter. Her grandson, Saltaire Platinum, has some holes in his pedigree just like Parndon Bullfinch does. So Saltaire Platinum is a Traditional Dexter, just like Parndon Bullfinch.
Horned Dexters are great and should be preserved if they meet the original traits, but polled Dexters are also traditional and should be preserved if they meet the original traits.
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Post by jamshundred on May 8, 2019 16:44:08 GMT
I kind of describe the situation rather simplistically. A heirloom seed versus a hybrid seed. Don't see much effort taking place to preserve the hybrids!
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Post by lakeportfarms on May 10, 2019 12:42:39 GMT
Kirk, I have 70 plus just like this cow in black, red, and dun. This is her 2019 dun short leg heifer calf. Can you post 70 cows just like her from your herd?
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Post by cddexter on May 10, 2019 15:23:23 GMT
Jeez, Hans.
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Post by lakeportfarms on May 10, 2019 16:22:28 GMT
What Carol? She's a beautiful cow with an outstanding udder. She's 35" tall, within the breed guidelines, and obviously a super temperament. She has the ability to raise a nice size long leg steer, or even a bull or heifer that is well within breed guidelines, not the "monsters" that Kirk likes to say that the chondro carriers produce.
She doesn't cost nearly as much to feed, and if I can keep 10 just like her instead of 6 long legs, I'm way ahead of the game financially. That little dun heifer calf sold right away, for as much or more than most of the non-carriers that I've seen for sale as of late.
I'm not in the business of raising cattle to lose money, and losing money also makes for poor decision making in other things like selling Dexters that should be culled instead of beefing them in order to at least try to recover the cost. Having a nice margin on a high quality Dexter makes it much easier to cull the Dexter heifer that has a poor temperament, conformation, etc... and as you are surely aware, culling those heifers (and bulls) leads to further improvement in your herd.
In my opinion, the Dexter could have had it all, but the chondro haters and polled breeders have basically relegated it to a minor breed forever. If you aren't aware, others have recognized the popularity of the chondro gene and have now used it in crossbreeding programs, much as we have with our Highlands, and are doing far better with sales and financially than Dexter breeders in a crossbred, non-registered, miniature/dwarf market for cattle. The registered Dexter could have captured much of that market. The chondro genie is out of the bottle, and sadly it is being used in crossbred cattle at a far greater frequency than in the registered Dexter breed. Here's one of our 94% Highland chondro positive bull calves born this spring. I think you had an inkling of how popular they are, but without getting into more details, let's just say I had a bidding war for him, and his sale price will cover about 40% of my hay costs for 140 cattle over the next winter.
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Post by lakeportfarms on May 10, 2019 16:32:20 GMT
And, she's a TRUE 35". Not some made up number so as to give the impression that she fits in the breed guidelines. If you think she's small from the photo, then I'd suggest you question the heights that others are stating for the cows, bulls, and especially some AI bulls out there. My opinion...a lot of Dexter breeders are fudging their numbers down because they know that their cows and bulls are larger than they should be.
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Post by cddexter on May 10, 2019 19:58:16 GMT
Hi Hans,
All very well, but as a newer owner, you may not be aware of some history. Beryl Rutherford (Woodmagic) always claimed there were 'true shorts' in the original mix; Ben Robinson (Statenboro) went to her death believing all she had to do was persevere and she'd have true breeding shorts; Valerie Roberts (Vycanny) ditto. An early cyclopedia specifically mentioned that Dexter owners just had to tough it out until all the longlegs were bred out, without having any 'monsters' born, and the breed was stable--and consistent.
I took (and take) this to mean the original intention of the early Society and its members was to have a true-breeding shortleg bovine, no longlegs or monsters left in the gene pool. They were more concerned with breeding the best, as most already had money, so it wasn't an issue.
I'm sure you get a ton of money for your cute, cuddly little pets. Good for you. Some of us, me included, prefer to breed genetically viable, genetically stable livestock. Different market. Too bad you weren't around when the Odd and Unusual market was at its height--you'd have been even richer by now.
cheers, c.
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Post by cascade on May 11, 2019 14:41:08 GMT
True-Short = True Breeding = Heirloom Chondro-dwarf = heterozygous hybrid = can't breed true, just like hybrid garden plants can't breed true. The old 1890 Irish Dexter breed standards described Dexters as a true-short breed that could breed true for their shortness. They said Dexters should be red or black. They didn't say anything about horns and they allowed polled and horned Dexters. Here is a True-Short non-chondro 3 year old Dexter bull that exactly meets the 1890 Irish Dexter Standard. He is heavily linebred back to the 1894 Harley Poll line of Dexters. He can be bred on other True Shorts to produce 100% True Short calves exactly as described in the 1890 Irish Standards. Super thick and beefy, just as described in 1890. Serious productive compact friendly cattle.  |
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Post by jamshundred on May 12, 2019 16:08:07 GMT
Yes. . . . . . but .. . . . . . he is a hybrid not a heirloom.
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Post by jamshundred on May 12, 2019 16:18:03 GMT
Carol,
YES. . . . . .but.
The Dexter cattle breed was founded on DWARF cattle. It is the DWARF cattle that maximize forage conversion, have the early maturity for beef and babies, exhibit the strongest motherly instincts, ( including the bulls who help raise their male offspring and teach them how to be bulls), and it might likely be said, the renowned immune system.
Even a small non-dwarf loses much of these characteristcs, and a few generations away. . . . . they lose the foundation of the Dexter breed.
Breeding down does not eliminate what old-timers called "throwback". In miniature horses, there was a time there was over 50 per cent mortality rate in foals because they were being bred down to small sizes. Dwarf Dexters seem to have an innate ability to calf almost any breed they are crossed with, thus the accolades across the decades lauding their value in crossbreeding.
I would be certainly concerned about Kirk selling one of his "bred-down" small cows to someone who then outcrossed it to a beef breed.
AND. . . . . . .Kirk is breeding a field of MINIATURE cattle and calling them Dexters, which is not accurate since their paternal line is a GRADE bull. Add to that he is miniaturizing them, versus using the original, "smallest European breed dwarf genetics to gain the body type and size of original Dexter cattle.... and it is not intellectually honest to call them Dexters. Kirk would like to rely on the phenotype to brand his herd. . . . . . but it is the GENOTYPE that makes the breed.
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Post by cddexter on May 12, 2019 19:55:32 GMT
Hi Judy, maybe a quick lesson in genetics might help.
All animals follow the same statistical timed release curves. They start out small, with 'baby fat', then all the bits line up in an adolescent stage. Then the bone growth curve activates. As it slows down, the muscle curve activates. As it slows down, the fat curve activates. Because with dwarfs, the bone growth curve is curtailed, of course they move into the muscle and fat stages earlier. And since a muscle that's genetically designed to fit on a seven or eight inch bone is jammed onto a four or five inch bone, of course it looks bulkier. Wes Patton did a study and found that even though the dwarf looked beefier it actually dressed out with a smaller smy percentage. Check old issues of the ADCA bulletin; it was written up there. Piet Wilke (SA) and Veronica Schofield (GB) found exactly the same result.
I guess if you think a lethal genetic defect justifies faster 'maturity', from a production marketing perspective, go for it. I choose not to. To me it's the same as meat chickens with their incredibly fast growth so the chicken ends up not being able to walk because it's too heavy for the bones. I always used layer starter and grower, and only switched to broiler finisher at the last. Took a bit longer, but I had no deformities and no deaths. Ultimately it was more cost effective.
Only dwarfs have strong motherly instincts? Horsepucky. Only dwarfs have a good immune system. Bosh. Only dwarf bulls teach baby bulls how to be bulls? Piffle. No wonder there's a credibility issue with your prosthelytizing. Good try, tho.
PS: Dexters are credited with the same gene Jerseys seem to have: the frequent ability to control the size of the calf to fit the uterus. Now that would be a worthy *****!!!@@&&^++@!!**** topic for you. You could claim that the Dexter trait is really an introduced Jersey one, and diss all those hardy Dexters who throw small calves from bigger beef breeds. Oh, hold on, you only diss traits you don't like. Sorry, almost forgot that important distinction.
cheers, c.
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Post by lakeportfarms on May 13, 2019 19:10:50 GMT
Kirk, that is not a 3 year old bull in that photo. It was taken well before his third birthday and you've admitted that in other posts on Facebook. He is a baby bull, one only has to look at his development to see that. Where are all your other "true short" cattle? You only ever post a few photos. He's 3 years old now. How about a photo of him with you holding up a newspaper, kind of like a hostage photo. If they were so readily available, you'd show more photos, and so would a lot of other breeders, and there wouldn't be the need to budge the breed guidelines to as much as 50". Red polled Dexters look like generic cattle now, and black look even more like Angus. I'm sure that's why red polled was so popular to start with, so they wouldn't be confused with Angus cattle.
Carol, it's funny that of our beef customers who have had both chondro and non-chondro steers, they all come back and request another chondro steer, although they felt they both were good. Unfortunately I can't provide most of them with the chondro steer, because many of our chondro bulls are snapped up as bulls to use in cross breeding programs. We seem to have developed a good reputation in that market. Furthermore, the chondro carrier provides a lot more insight into the contributions that each parent make toward conformation. Faults are far more easily identified, because of the exaggerated shortness of the legs, and the greater importance of a nice udder with good attachment and suspension.
They are never going away, in fact they are more popular than ever.
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Post by cascade on May 13, 2019 19:14:25 GMT
Heirloom tomatoes are called "Heirloom" because they are true-breeding. All of their seed produces tomato plants and tomatoes that just like the parents. It's this true-breeding aspect that qualifies them as an "heirloom" variety. Hybrid tomato plants don't breed true, some of their offspring are tall, some are short, some produce nasty shriveled tomatoes. Smart people prefer heirloom varieties because they breed true. Most breeds start out as hybrids that don't breed true, and then breeders create the true breed by selecting toward a standard, over several generations, eventually purifying the breed. The 1890 Irish Dexter Breed standard stated that Dexters should breed true for their shortness. The Royal Dublin Society recognized that the problematic chondrodysplasia-affected Dexters were hybrids that threw a mish-mash of results including dead misshaped calves. The Royal Dublin Society stated that Dexters consisted of some true-breeding short Dexters, and some fake Dexters with the dwarfism disease. They stated that smart breeders could figure it out and get rid of the diseased heterozygous hybrid dwarfs, and to only breed true-short Dexters. True shorts are PURE heirloom Dexters, and polled Dexters can be traced back to 1894 when the original Irish standards allowed for both poll Dexters and horned Dexters. This statement is from the 1908 scientific paper published by the Royal Dublin Society.  |
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Post by lakeportfarms on May 13, 2019 19:15:45 GMT
Oh, and I'm not really willing to "go to my death waiting to develop a herd of true breeding shorts". You know what usually happens when breeders die? Their herd gets dispersed into dozens of different herds, with different breeding objectives. Very few will take the herd as a whole and continue with the effort, especially today, because they don't have the means or land to do so, even if they have the desire. Especially with a minor breed.
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Post by cddexter on May 15, 2019 17:41:00 GMT
So count me lucky, Hans. I got to send 17 head to NZ as a start to purebreds there. Those genes can be readily seen with the naked eye as you look at herds there.
AND, I was even luckier that there was a breeder in the US who believes in quality and consistency, and has a herd of beautiful Dexters, almost all the same height, all with long bodies and great udders and terrific muscling and super temperament, and the offspring pass this on.
It's called consistency.
Her herd is based a lot on my genetics, plus some careful inclusion of other lines, mostly imported. I got to have my special line continue. Great, huh? That's 107 years of careful selective breeding in one line, and it shows.
30+ years ago, I studied all the close descendants of the Grinstead herd remaining alive in England. Every one was beautiful, and the herd had been disbursed 20 years previously. You can't beat quality.
Sounds insulting, I know, but I kind of equate your program to the Shih Tzu cross craze: cute, yes. adorable, yes. faults that would make you weep, yes. But who cares, cute sells, and you get to take all that lucre to the bank, and boast about it.
Thirty five years ago, you could easily find 46' - 52' registered Dexters. Clove Brook, O'Briar Hill, Tak-Sca-Du-Hav, Yellowbird, TAM, they all had them. Discredited, bred with with dwarfs 'to bring the height down', they were out there, but considered the poor cousins you had to put up with. Breeding a small Dexter, consistently, without resorting to dwarf genes, is hard work, but worth it. My entire cow herd of over 60 head, averaged between 41 and 43 inches, not one taller. Could I have brought the height down further? Well, with more time, I might have, but I think around 42" is the perfect size: you can still get under it to milk, and the carcass provides a good yield, so that's where I stopped.
I know there's altruism vs profit here, but I made my choice.
cheers, c.
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Post by legendrockranch on May 16, 2019 2:53:12 GMT
This is what can happen when you crossbreed animals with genetic defects. Isn't this what you are crossing with your carriers Hans? Hydrops associated with chondrodysplasia of the fetus in a miniature Scottish Highland cow. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26885599 |
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Post by lakeportfarms on May 16, 2019 14:28:48 GMT
This is what can happen when you crossbreed animals with genetic defects. Isn't this what you are crossing with your carriers Hans? Hydrops associated with chondrodysplasia of the fetus in a miniature Scottish Highland cow. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26885599So what? I can't be responsible for what other breeders do. Chondro is out there, it will never go away, and a lot of irresponsible breeders will continue to put two carriers together thinking they'll get a small or smaller calf. I do everything I can humanly do to advise people about breeding with chondro, and I get banned from some Facebook groups as a result.
I've built a pretty good business with those who want to use carriers and appreciate the education and guidance that I give them in breeding decisions. And, for the record, at the same time we've been breeding with chondro, we had a concurrent program with breeding sizes down of standard Highlands, to the point now that I "consistently" produce fullblood Highlands in the 40-42" height range. Calving weights in the 20's and 30's and heights between 20-22" at birth for the fullbloods. Nobody else in the country is doing this, to my knowledge.
I think I probably know the source of this cow, and although he has been at it for some time, I don't think he fully understood chondro, and frankly, from what I've seen of some of his breedings, I don't really like the quality. I know of a chondro positive bull of his breeding that is for sale right now who measures 41.5" at 4 years old. Too large to be successfully used in a breeding program...however if I directly comment about it I'll get hate mail, or I'll get banned from that group too. The Highlands bring no genetic defects to the breeding, it is all from Dexters. Funny how the article doesn't even consider PHA as one of the problems. Every Dexter and subsequent crossbred High/Dex either was tested for, or descended from, fully tested for both PHA and Chondro. I parentage verify all of the breeding stock for both our Dexters and Highlands, so I know who sired whom.
I don't have a Dexter, cow or bull, that I use for breeding now, over 43" except for one bull. This includes the non-carriers. The largest Dexter I own was bred by Patti Adams, a 4 year old bull, Wakarusa Leif. He's now 45". He has good feet, and fortunately the sizes of my cows that he's been bred to are small and I can afford to give up a little height to get better feet. Isn't that what good breeders do? I have a similar bull, non-carrier, Traditional lines, carries red, who measured 39" at age three. I've also selected for smaller sizes, good conformation, excellent udders, and if there is a weakness in our herd, it is the feet and legs of maybe 25% of our carriers. You wouldn't see the weakness if the carriers were non-carriers, because the shorter dwarf legs and feet magnify the structural deficiencies. So I use the dwarf cows and bulls to make further improvements because I can identify it more easily.
Instead of criticizing me for breeding with chondro, you should be applauding me for being responsible not only in our breeding practices, but for bringing it to the attention of the crossbred miniature market that uses it so heavily.
I will breed Dexters in limited numbers over the coming years, however I'm so fed up with the politics, the personalities, and the loss of what was once a pretty unique breed of cattle into a generic breed, indistinguishable from Lowline, Aberdeen, or even just regular Angus cattle. You can call it a Dexter by pedigree (with a lot of evidence and common sense to the contrary) but you're just trading on the history and name at this point.
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Post by legendrockranch on May 16, 2019 21:07:53 GMT
When you sell you animals Hans do you have a written contract? If so it might be beneficial for you when selling a carrier to have them sign the contact stating that they fully understand the correct breeding practices. That would at least keep you safe from any potential problems that might or might not occur in the future. Without a contact it's just a "he said, she said or didn't say".
I have posted this paragraph taken from the Beef Cattle Handbook many times.
BCH-1900 Product of Extension Beef Cattle Resource Committee, Kansas State, University of North Carolina
Ethical and Legal Considerations
Serious ethical and legal problems are involved in selling
known carrier cattle or progeny of known carriers. A
seedstock producer in this position should be completely
honest with the buyer. It is doubtful that he should sell
possible carriers, under any circumstances, to a youngster
or to someone who is just getting started in business and
may not have the knowledge to understand the
consequences of using offspring from known carriers.
Selling carriers without informing the buyer will ultimately
reduce the confidence that buyers have in the
breeder and may eventually reflect negatively on the
entire breed.
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Post by cddexter on May 18, 2019 13:26:49 GMT
Barb, I think you missed the point...
You are (and I was) working on breeding livestock, where function and yield traits are the primary considerations, along with maintaining animals that meet breed standards.
Hans is providing genetics for hobbyists to play. Pretty simple. I understand his using chondro to bring out extra faults. I guess it works for him.
I think it's still the 130 year old problem. Height standards were added years after the fact, and used dwarfs as the model. No one wants to deal with the genetic reality that a 40" dwarf is really a 44-46" animal in a genetic straightjacket, so OF COURSE the nons are going to be 'taller'. If the height standard was set for one type or the other, and the complementary type was allowed within a 4-6" range of the standard (whichever side is chosen), all would be good. But the dwarf proponents keep trumpeting about Dexters 'getting' too tall, without realizing they've been much taller in the past, and in fact breeders HAVE brought the heights down by using selective breeding instead of using a defective gene to fix each animal as it comes along, as long as it's one of the defective ones.
It doesn't matter that original breeders 130 years ago genuinely believed they just had to persevere and they'd get a true breeding chunky animal with short legs. Never going to happen using chondro, so the owners of today have to pretend it's all intentional.
Just like religion, science and factual experience have no place here. it's all a matter of faith.
cheers, c. |
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Post by legendrockranch on May 19, 2019 3:30:29 GMT
This is what can happen when you crossbreed animals with genetic defects. Isn't this what you are crossing with your carriers Hans? Hydrops associated with chondrodysplasia of the fetus in a miniature Scottish Highland cow. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26885599The Highlands bring no genetic defects to the breeding, it is all from Dexters.
I really don't know how to respond to your comment Hans. You are purposely bring in a genetic defect into a breed that you say has none. For what purpose??? I have a strong feeling this will come back to haunt you. |
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Post by cddexter on May 19, 2019 4:09:39 GMT
Hans, if I understand you correctly, re the article, Highlands don't carry the Dexter BD1 gene, or a pha gene either. I'm thinking the miniature Highland cow was from two animals that came from Dexter x Highland on both sides, so both sire and dam carried the Dexter BD1 gene AND the Dexter pha gene?
If this is the case, are you really suggesting the owner was or should be ho hum about the stress and costs of dealing with these lethal genes? Is it considered just part of the cost of toy farm animals, and owners should take it in stride?
Do you know if the animal in the article was from your breeding?
c.
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Post by lakeportfarms on May 19, 2019 21:16:37 GMT
There is a breeder in California, Rick Sanders, who has been using chondro for a number of years in his "Miniature Highland" program. I think he probably saw some of what Granwohl was doing. My guess is that it is from his breeding. I don't think he tested until recently.
Barb, this isn't going to come back and bite me, unless I can't find any more places to stuff all the cash I'm raking in from these Highlands I'm breeding. I'm running out of depreciation and expense deductions so I'm running into a higher tax bracket, and I sure hate sending the government more money to waste. Sorry your red polled pyramid scheme Dexters have now crashed and are available in every state at sale barn prices. Meanwhile I've got bidding wars for mine and am shipping all over North America, including Canada. Some have even been air shipped. I've got a customer in Bedford Hills, NY, that wants an entire herd of them from me. Carol probably recognizes the area. They'll be living at an equestrian facility there. Probably nicer accommodations than a lot of Dexter owners' homes...lol
Just some stats for you, the most popular FB page for Dexters, Dexter Cattle Enthusiasts, has been in existence since 2007 and has 7328 members. The Miniature Highland FB page that Sheril and I administer was started in 2017, and has 5015 members. Most of them looking to buy one, not sell one. Instagram posts with 50,000 likes. If I had more time I'd figure out the whole monetization thing and I could probably retire on it.
All of your concerns are laughable, because I am probably more selective about who I sell to than most anybody else out there, certainly more than anybody with Dexters. I laugh when I see an ISO post for Dexters posted on Facebook by somebody new. It's like somebody in the Amazon river with a small cut, with piranhas in a feeding frenzy. The sellers are beating each other up to sell a 6 month old Dexter bull for $600..."I'll deliver him for gas money across country!". So sad to watch what happened to such a wonderful and unique breed of cattle. Although, Barb, being a polled and non-chondro breeder you've never really bred the real Dexter.
You both completely missed that in both our Dexters and fullblood Highlands I don't rely on chondro to reduce sizes. I've bred a non-carrier bull out of traditional lines, 39" at age three. I sold his half brother to another breeder, and he's 2-1/2 and probably going to be about the same size at age 3. How much smaller and more consistent should I breed them? You have no clue about our breeding program, other than my wife and I prefer the small size of the carriers, even though we have small non-carriers. Just like thousands of others.
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Post by jamshundred on May 19, 2019 22:53:30 GMT
All very well, but as a newer owner, you may not be aware of some history. Beryl Rutherford (Woodmagic) always claimed there were 'true shorts' in the original mix; Ben Robinson (Statenboro) went to her death believing all she had to do was persevere and she'd have true breeding shorts; Valerie Roberts (Vycanny) ditto. An early cyclopedia specifically mentioned that Dexter owners just had to tough it out until all the longlegs were bred out, without having any 'monsters' born, and the breed was stable--and consistent. I took (and take) this to mean the original intention of the early Society and its members was to have a true-breeding shortleg bovine, no longlegs or monsters left in the gene pool. They were more concerned with breeding the best, as most already had money, so it wasn't an issue. 1. That belief of Beryl Rutherford’s is no revelation. It is science. Of course there were short non-chondro cattle, but “true-short” is nothing more than a marketing term made-up in America. There is no science or reality to it, for even the short non-chrondro do NOT breed truer than any other breed. There is NO breed of cattle that breeds true to size. Not a single one. Mis-information campaign. 2. An assumption is just that. Not fact. The original intention of the society said NADA of what you “assume”, nor anywhere since can that be found in writing. Nor did they really believe in breeding the best. Misnomer. Maybe show breeders sought to breed cattle “they” thought best for awards, but mainstream breeders actually ate most of the animals born. |
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Post by jamshundred on May 19, 2019 23:12:08 GMT
That was a calamity! Legacy cattle transported to New Zealand and then bred to a GRADe bull. Show me so photos of those wonderful hybrids of which you brag.
It is not so IF the herd of which you speak is the one of which I think. Bulls from your sire have gotten huge. I personally know of four of them destroyed. I have spoken to two breeders who would not use them for breeding after first experience.
I think not.
Repeat after me. “The most consistent quality herd in Dexter history was a herd bred from, and as, dwarf Dexter cattle”. Lady Loder stayed true to the breed.
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