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Post by wvdexters on Oct 8, 2014 6:28:23 GMT
Hey guys, back from vacation now and it was so beautiful. Much needed rest and relaxation.
Hello kwin. I see that you are really upset and angry about this subject but I hope this can help explain things a bit. First off, no one here is calling for polled animals to have their registrations pulled. With over 85% of the Dexter herd in this country now carrying polled genes that could never happen. And it is not hatred that you are hearing, but frustration.
Just as you have obviously fallen in love with your animals, so have we. We fell in love with them, and also with the Dexter Breed itself. But now the Dexter Breed is changing. It is being changed from within. Many breeders are becoming deeply concerned about this and the numbers are growing. Many of us here also share these concerns.
Each year we watch as the Traditional Dexter disappears. The numbers don't lie. We lose ground each season. As polled becomes more prominent fewer traditional calves are being born. Of these, many are being taken into modern herds and are being bred to polled bulls; losing their lines forever. So many of the old bloodlines have already been lost ..... but we are trying to save those that remain. To Preserve the Traditional Dexter Breed.
To Preserve the remnants of the breed first you have to get the word out. Let people know what is happening, spread the information, get the facts out. Only then can we have a chance. To get the word out on HOW to do it is easy. If you own Traditionally bred cows, breed them to Traditionally Bred Bulls. Simple. But to get the word out on WHY, that is the hard part.
Many breeders don't want to know the truth about polled genetics. They want the facts to just go away. They don't want to hear about SP and his many outcrossings, and how the gene for polled was brought into our breed from another. Reacting with anger and fear, they feel that their animals are being attacked. Of course, polled dexters are wonderful animals. They are very popular and I have seen many very fine animals. The problem is they just don't fit into the description of the Dexter Breed. I invite you and everyone else to take the time and research the Dexter Breed. Check out our foundation animals on the Historical page on Facebook. Really look and see what Dexters really look like. They are so unique and special, so different from what we see being bred now. We are losing what has made our breed so special. Many of the modern dexters we see now are far more similar to small beef breeds than they are to their ancestors of just a few years ago.
WHY is this important? Because once they are gone they will be gone forever. We will never be able to get them back again. And with the numbers falling at this rate it won't be too far down the road. The unique, small horned breed will be lost.
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Post by Dear Abby on Oct 8, 2014 15:27:07 GMT
What?? Lucifer is considered a "traditional" Dexter by you now?? I guess as long as there are only two KNOWN, rather than four, introgressions, the animal in question can still be considered traditional? Oh that's right, Lucifer had horns and Saltaire Platinum is polled. From the Legacy website: "Lucifer of Knotting Semen of Lucifer of Knotting was imported to Canada and the US in the late 1980's. Lucifer is an upgraded bull from an "experimental" breeding program recorded in the herd books of England. Known introgressions in this pedigree are both Angus and Jersey - though there is written documentation from one of the leaders of this project that other breeds were part of the experiment. ( As documented by the English breeder - Beryl Rutherford). " |
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Post by genebo on Oct 8, 2014 15:31:01 GMT
Who are Kwin and Publius? Does anyone know?
I'd like to know so I can judge how much credence to give to their posts. As unknowns, it's hard to give any credence. Posting anonymously makes it easy to bend the truth to suit.
I am Gene Bowen. I have been raising Dexters since 2003, and studied at the feet of some fine Dexter breeders before I made my first purchases. Since then, I have tried to learn as much as possible about the little Dexter cattle that so impressed me before I bought, and have so endeared themselves to me since that time. I love Dexters.
I raise traditional, black, horned Dexters. I keep a short legged bull to breed all long legged cows.
I keep two lines of Dexters here.
One is the traditional Windridge line, that includes Bullfinch in it's ancestry. They are all pure black, with nor red or dun, A2/A2, PHA free. Beautifully conformed dual purpose animals, all within the size guidelines. One won the 2012 ADCA Adult Senior Heifer Class in a large field.
The other line is a Legacy line based upon the project to reproduce Wee Gaelic Ms Fermoy's red color. A cow that carries her red, 3 heifers, two that carry her red and a bull calf that carries her red.
I have very litle interest in the politics of the associations. I feel that an association's functions are mainly for the benefit of the members and I am mostly interested in matters of benefit to the Dexter cattle.
If you don't mind, would you introduce yourselves before posting?
Thank you.
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Post by jamshundred on Oct 8, 2014 17:51:56 GMT
Dear Abby,
No. Lucifer is not a traditional bull. . .. though Legacy does encourage breeders to preserve his female descendents. In most cases they are very traditional in phenotype and they are HORNED. All of the horned bloodlines are being "deleted". Most breeders using Lucifer did so for red, ( and still are for the most part) and those herds tend to breed within. The best situation is for them to continue those breeding practices and not to remove or cross the dwindling numbers of traditional bloodlines with the upgraded lines.
I was mentioning that through AI, Lucifer came to be in a large percentage of pedigrees, as did Bullfinch and Jamie O'Callen. The same problem is going on with popular polled bulls on AI service. . . . however. . . . . that problem is exacerbated by the fact it brings in multiple lines of SP as well.
Judy
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Post by jamshundred on Oct 8, 2014 17:56:45 GMT
Karrie,
Welcome home from vacation. Your contributions are always very thoughtful and temperate. ( Now where did that come from? I am positive that word is not in my dictionary! ! )
Judy
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Post by jamshundred on Oct 8, 2014 18:11:38 GMT
Kwin and Publius offer exciting possibility for speculation!
Don't forget that "I" have a reputation for being difficult in discussions and maybe there is a reluctance or discomfort level with being "exposed". Or. . . . horror of horrors. . . they might come to agree with us and that certainly would be an exposure that could cost them buddies. LOL!
I only lose my demeanor with people who attack me personally. They can challenge my opinions as much as they like and I will debate them. . . but there are only three people in the Dexter world I sincerely disrespect. I think there are times my writing style appears far more stern and critical than the intent. Or I forget to put a smiley or something. I am, in real life, intense about Dexters and the things I love most. . . . . . and kind to all. I sometimes labor to make up excuses for people who are inexcusable! Smiley face.
Judy
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Post by Legend Rock Ranch on Oct 8, 2014 18:21:03 GMT
Most breeders using Lucifer did so for red, ( and still are for the most part) and those herds tend to breed within.
Judy, I don't feel this statement of yours is correct. Most people used Lucifer because of what he produced as far as their milking abilities.
"His mother and all four grandparents qualified for the English Register of Merit. (To
qualify, a cow must produce or a bull must sire 4 cows who produced not less than 3, 960
lbs. of milk in the 1st lactation, 5,500 lbs. of milk in the 2nd lactation, and 6,490 lbs. of
milk in the 3rd lactation"
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Post by jamshundred on Oct 9, 2014 0:26:07 GMT
Barb,
I had this discussion ages ago. At that time, I went through the herd records in England, and a black Knotting bull could have just as easily been imported if dairy was the requisite.
I went through the Canadian data as well. I will just briefly say. . . . . .The Canadian herd was invigorated if not re-established when the 5 Woodmagic animals were imported in 1978 (dun) which established the Cranworth herd. My interest is not in the Canadian herd so I am not going thorugh all their records but did quite a few back when I first did the research. At the time I do not believe there were red animals in Canada. . . because the original red in America had also disappeared. It was apparently still being carried recessive down from the Peerless line and there were imports in 1965 which carried red.
Sandy Thomas purchased Mar Nell's Black Magic at the beginning of the 80's. In due course she line bred him. . . . and a red calf was born. Sandy promoted her red animals as being the only red in America. Very rare. Do you suppose they were very pricey for the time as well. What happens when Dexter breeders see rare and pricey? Stampede! She had the US and the Canada market and the only red for a few years. Do you really think Sandy Thomas chose a red bull from Canada to bring into her herd where she had the only red in N America for the dairy characteristics that were for sale at premium prices? There were cattle in America that had excellent dairy traits though much of the "improvements" over a couple decades for beef were diminishing dairy.
If the motivating factor was dairy lines. . . . . well . . . . . . in Canada they already had dairy lines. . . .Woodmagic was a milking line. There were good cattle in America that had beautiful udders and bulls bred from them. So, the first bull they import is one that has an experimental UPGRADE and just happens to be red. Barb. . . that is naive and you are drinking the cool aid. Knotting was not the only herd that had register of merit animals in England. Why would owners in Canada ( who registered in the US) and owners in America import an upgraded bull when upgrading was not permitted in the US? Why didn't they choose a black bull from Jupiter instead of the red run if it was about milk? Because the red bull was different and represented a financial opportunity is what the circumstantial data reflects.
Do what I did way back when. Make a list of every Lucifer offspring and their offspring and the direction the breeders of the herds took. Ignore the early black animals because there was no red until Lucifer made black animals carrying red. Then watch how the ball rolled. It did not roll by chance.
The only other red of the time came about when animals in the Beerex herd were line bred and red appeared. That may not have been an accident. I don't know if the breeder had a background or knowledge of genetics or color. . . . but it may have been obvious that Yom Kippur very likely carried red because it was on both sides of his mother's pedigree.
Men have walked the last mile on death row convicted by less circumstantial evidence than surrounds the case for Lucifer being imported for RED.
Judy
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Post by Legend Rock Ranch on Oct 9, 2014 1:06:10 GMT
Barb. . . that is naive and you are drinking the cool aid.
Judy, sorry you feel that I am naïve. Comments like that only reflect back at the person that says them. And you comment was made why? Because we had a difference in the reason red was used?
Barb
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Post by jamshundred on Oct 9, 2014 1:18:50 GMT
I'm sorry Barb. Honest. I didn't mean it as the perjorative it sounds when I read it. It was more like a statement of dis-belief that you were not ignoring dots in what I see as a very obvious trail. However, you have not had your nose in a Dexter herd book nearly every day , and may not have talked to breeders from all points of the compass and gathered information, and stories, and experiences, and . .. . yes. . . .gossip. . . . . .so it is reasonable to realize you don't see the patterns. So I apologize again.
Judy |
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Post by Legend Rock Ranch on Oct 9, 2014 2:12:32 GMT
Accepted, and thank you.
Lucifer of Knotting has only 64 progeny listed with the ADCA, of those 64 only 9 are listed as red. Jeff Chambers (Silver Maple Dexters) has the most recent registered offspring 10 since 2001 only 1 of those is red, surely he is not using Lucifer for his color.
Again I just disagree with your comment that most breeders using Lucifer was for his red color.
So I guess we'll just have to leave it at that.
Barb
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Post by lakeportfarms on Oct 9, 2014 11:07:58 GMT
Sorry to say Barb, but what Judy says makes a lot of sense. She didn't say "All breeders" or "Only because he was red". But if you look at some of the old Dexter Bulletins when Lucifer was advertised as an AI bull, it didn't say "Comes from Great Milking Lines!". No; to paraphrase, it said, "here is your chance to add red to your herd".
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Post by lakeportfarms on Oct 9, 2014 12:12:53 GMT
The issues that keep being touted/blamed on SP are nothing more than poor SELECTION of breeding stock, or maybe even breeding pairs, as stated already...and y'all must admit that poor selection can tend to be a trend within the Dexter breed...bad feet, bad udders, bad temperament, too tall, too heavy, too narrow...etc...are some of the things the rest of the cattle world know about Dexters. I admit it, it's hard to cull them cause most of them are big...err...little ol teddy bears, so we make exceptions hoping that pairing them with a different mate will improve those bad traits in future generations...but is that always for the betterment of the herd? And breeding for any one or two traits will always lend to poorer overall animals. When we first started buying our breeding stock we found a two year old bull who already had a hip height of 45", he was beautiful & everything else we wanted in a herd sire, but, even being the complete novices we were, we felt it kind of safe to say he would finish out as a big boy, bigger than the breed standard, who would've most likely thrown calves who'd grow like him. So, we passed...I'm sure he ended up in someone else's pasture, though, as we weren't the only interested party. I feel that is the problem going forward...no one is being held to the breed standard. Anyway, like I said before, y'all breed what you think improves the overall herd, and the rest of us will do the same, and goodness gracious can we stop all the bickering...and maybe instead focus on how to solve the real problems facing our breed?? Ok Kwin, just how do you propose we solve what you seem to consider the biggest problem facing Dexters right now? And do you not think that there is a correlation between the overall sizes increasing of late, with the explosion of SP (i.e. polled) genetics in the Dexter breed? I can point right now to examples, probably in the hundreds if I took the time to look at all of the websites out there, of breeders advertising polled bulls for sale. It seems as though most of them have a hard time steering any of them. Perhaps their aversion to the dehorning process (if they don't care to have horns in their herd) also translates to an aversion to putting a thick rubber band at the neck of their bull's scrotum. Or maybe their aversion to horns makes it difficult to turn them into beef. Or maybe it's financial, lets sell our young bull calf for $2K or more because it's more lucrative than selling for beef. In most cases it sure isn't to "improve the breed" or "maintain the breed standards". These bulls are being marketed to new Dexter owners extensively "No horns!" And in the fine print "you may get horns 50% of the time". Those new owners are also trying to sell their bull calves to new owners. I also think it's ironic how the beef production aspects of the polled Dexters are extolled, yet few seem to avail themselves of the fine qualities they provide until they have no choice and the prospect for the sale of the intact bull diminishes. Add to the "must haves" of every breeder or veterinarian the Callicrate Bander, but many probably don't even bother getting that done in a timely manner. And without genotyping all calves, not just the bulls, the "who's your daddy" game gets a lot more complicated. Cripe, I see horned bull calves out of polled parents that are being sold as breeding bulls...and frankly most of them have nothing to offer the breed, except probably the larger size that you seem to agree is a problem. You mention the bull you considered probably ended up in somebody's pasture...who in turn is breeding and producing progeny that is going to add to the trend of increasing sizes, to be passed on to other owners down the road. Now that a polled test is available, I'd lay odds that if a bull calf tests as homozygous polled, it is left intact regardless of his correctness, temperament, etc... And I'd almost bet my entire herd, including my prized chondro carriers, that if he also is A2/A2 they are always advertised as a bull as the first choice of the breeder. THAT is the definition of single trait selection. I actually agree with Kirk to a small extent. Using chondro to artificially bring down the sizes of these large Dexters is a bad idea. However what Kirk fails to mention is that experienced chondro breeders can also perform this size selection on their carriers. I can tell the difference between a carrier that has larger genetics vs. one with smaller genetics. And I'll say this, mixing these larger (especially homozygous) polled Dexter bulls with small chondrodysplasia carrying heifers and even cows certainly increases the chances of complications during calving for both the calf and the mother. Most all of us that do not, or have few polled in our herds (and for the record I have a couple of polled Dexters in our herd) are doing our best to keep them within the breed standards for height and other traits. We don't have a choice...we don't have Dexters that are purchased primarily so the new owner MAY not have to dehorn the calves they have. I recently saw a website for a Dexter breeder, fairly recent to the breed, that had a half dozen or more polled bull calves for sale. Their herd doesn't consist of more than 12 or so adults. Give me a break...THAT is the problem our breed faces going forward. You can chalk it up to them being fairly new and not hardened yet to the process of culling less desirable stock, but I can almost assure you they were sucked in by a breeder on the fact that Dexters were hot, and polled Dexters were even more hot and you can sell them for a lot of money. And they probably paid a lot of money to get started too. So, we're all looking forward for your solution to the problem of breeding outside breed standards. Are you going to tell your fellow polled breeders to cull their "outside the standards" bulls or cows, or their progeny because they stand a pretty good chance of also being outside the standards when they are fully grown and take a financial hit in the process? I saw an article somewhere, probably linked here, that in order to "save the breed you have to eat them". It isn't happening enough, in my opinion. And that is during a period of time when beef prices are at record highs. What's going to happen when the beef prices drop? 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kwin
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Post by kwin on Oct 9, 2014 13:46:37 GMT
Gene, sorry, but I do actually mind. I've seen what some of you can do to a person on these boards and how it affects them in the real world and I don't care to be part of it...I'd rather be called a coward, thank you very much. And in all honesty the way some behave on the boards make me not want to deal with them in person...ever.
I did my research before I purchased animals, and thankfully I had the time to put into it to wade through all the hoopla and not be scared away so I could make informed decisions on my foundation stock. I own a few traditional cows, whom I would love to breed to a traditional bull by the way, and I also own a few small, docile polled animals. My bull is also hetero polled, cause while horns do not have a place on my farm, they are beautiful and some may want to keep them intact, and I can dehorn any who will be staying here. I do not yet have any Chondro carriers, but would love to add them to my herd. My anonymity does not make my statements less worthy or valid.
My goal here was to suggest that we all quit bashing certain genes, bulls, etc, and instead work on fixing the problems that are killing animals and damaging to the reputation of the Dexter breed. All the discourse and drama confuses new owners and many throw in the towel before ever getting a chance to own one! When you start talking about lethal genes, upgraded/impure bloodlines, & DNA testing most of the newly former city folks' eyes glaze over and they just don't feel like it's worth wading thru and dealing with.
Isn't the best way to preserve something to get it into as many hands as possible? And I'm telling you, you can promote the traditional lines WITHOUT bashing the polled lines...it truly is possible!! As lakeport said, all it took was meeting & seeing traditional animals for a customer to change their mind on what they thought the direction of their herd should be. And it's hogwash for y'all to say you have to bash polled because you've been hurt by Chondro bashers...my momma taught me that two wrongs never make a right, so maybe it's just me.
I am in awe of both the knowledge of & dedication to the breed in general as well as the dedication and passion you all have for preserving the genetics from foundation lines that help to keep the breed diverse. I think we all should be able to agree that diversity & conforming to breed standards are the keys to survival in any breed.
But, Gene, I think you are wrong in one instance...you should be concerned with the activities of the associations. It should be the duty of the registries to keep an accurate herd book, ensure the breed standards are being conformed to, educate with unbiased information the prospective and current members/owners, and promote the breed...not their own herds. If that's not what the associations are doing now, then isn't it time for someone to step up and do something about it within the association?? I hear the list for volunteers is usually somewhat of a short one.
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kwin
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Post by kwin on Oct 9, 2014 14:12:14 GMT
Judy, you are correct, PHA was manifested in the American herd by those two bulls...but considering they were descendants of AP, doesn't he exist in the resulting pedigrees just the same...which was the point I was trying to make.
Since having any one bull be the dominant force in a breed can do major damage in the diversity department, maybe the problem we should all be looking at is how to prevent that from happening in the future...maybe limiting the amount of semen distributed from any one AI bull over a certain period of time may be one place to start, I don't know.
And, Judy, I ALREADY don't disagree with your stance on the need to preserve the traditional bloodlines, and that is definitely not the reason for my anonymity...I do however disagree with how you bash animals that are accepted by their breed registry, and who have been accepted for 20 years.
Quick question, why is it possible for Lucifer descendants to retain phenotype, but it seems out of the question for descendants of SP, especially those who retain their horns and are correct?? And it's an honest question, not being snarky at all.
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kwin
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Post by kwin on Oct 9, 2014 14:17:37 GMT
Lakeport, I do agree that the overall size of the Dexter is getting out of hand...but I truly think that the way to fix it is to select and register only those animals who fit the breed standard. I have some tiny non-Chondro animals from polled lines, and they produce tiny babies. One of which was so small I swore had to be a Chondro carrier (her dam looks like a non-carrier but is from carrier lines and is untested). I have since tested her and she is not a carrier, but is still super small as a yearling. I also have a couple that are on the larger end of the breed standard, & I know I need to watch who I breed them to to ensure their offspring will remain within the standard.
It was terribly irresponsible for the Region 3 Director to insert her own inflammatory opinion into the Bulletin. The discussion of Chondro in that forum needs to be unbiased & one of education and information, not opinion. However, inflammatory statements made regarding polled animals are almost as irresponsible.
Also, rather than assume that the touting of a Chondro free herd is done just to hurt those who have Chondro carriers, couldn't it instead be compared to advertising a herd as traditional? Or advertising them as PHA free, horned, polled, parentage verified, red, dun, a2a2, etc.? We each advertise what we think are the qualities of our herd...sure some people may do it to poke at others, but oh well. All prospective buyers need to have most of that information so they can make sound choices. And I'm not completely naive, I know there's a lot of bad blood that lends to the assumption they're advertising like that to put Chondro carriers down, and I'm sure that really is the intent of some, but it's all just got to stop.
I don't know the best way to fix the size problem going forward since animals are registered as calves. Maybe when a mature animal is sold it should then be compared to the breed standard in all aspects & measured before being allowed to transfer to the new owner? I realize that people would just sell them and not transfer, or keep them to continue on in their own herds, but it's maybe a start. Maybe it should be a goal of the association to promote breeders to not pair up animals that don't fit the breed standard. In other rare breed animal associations I have seen them encourage the pairing of certain lines that had seen a drop in registrations and try to have the membership work to limit other lines who had experienced a boom and were dominating the registry. Maybe if an AI bull offered on the ADCA website is outside of the breed standard, maybe he shouldn't be allowed to be there?? Maybe we need to work to figure out what the common goal of the association is in regards to the future of the breed, cause really, why would people continue to pay the prices they are paying for animals that are too large to be considered Dexters anymore? I've had really sweet and docile, easy calving Herefords before, but I can't sustain their size on my small acreage, and I couldn't sustain oversized Dexters either.
I totally get your frustration. Every bull calf born was not meant to be a herdsire, and I'm sure profitability/farm sustainability is the reason you see it happening, cause really, we've all got to have a little something back to help continue on and it's way easier for some to sell calves than it is to sell beef animals. Heck, maybe there should be a limit to the number of bull calves registered to a herd per birth year based on the owners overall herd numbers, that way it forces people to practice sound steering?
Single trait overselection is never a good idea, unless the breeder is willing to cull and cull hard. It drives me nuts when people ask about certain traits in my animals when they really don't know what it means for them to have or not have them, regardless of whether my animal possesses the trait or not.
I don't know, but we need to come together and do something about it. A house divided cannot stand.
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kwin
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Post by kwin on Oct 9, 2014 14:37:52 GMT
Hey guys, back from vacation now and it was so beautiful. Much needed rest and relaxation.
Hello kwin. I see that you are really upset and angry about this subject but I hope this can help explain things a bit. First off, no one here is calling for polled animals to have their registrations pulled. With over 85% of the Dexter herd in this country now carrying polled genes that could never happen. And it is not hatred that you are hearing, but frustration.
Just as you have obviously fallen in love with your animals, so have we. We fell in love with them, and also with the Dexter Breed itself. But now the Dexter Breed is changing. It is being changed from within. Many breeders are becoming deeply concerned about this and the numbers are growing. Many of us here also share these concerns.
Each year we watch as the Traditional Dexter disappears. The numbers don't lie. We lose ground each season. As polled becomes more prominent fewer traditional calves are being born. Of these, many are being taken into modern herds and are being bred to polled bulls; losing their lines forever. So many of the old bloodlines have already been lost ..... but we are trying to save those that remain. To Preserve the Traditional Dexter Breed.
To Preserve the remnants of the breed first you have to get the word out. Let people know what is happening, spread the information, get the facts out. Only then can we have a chance. To get the word out on HOW to do it is easy. If you own Traditionally bred cows, breed them to Traditionally Bred Bulls. Simple. But to get the word out on WHY, that is the hard part.
Many breeders don't want to know the truth about polled genetics. They want the facts to just go away. They don't want to hear about SP and his many outcrossings, and how the gene for polled was brought into our breed from another. Reacting with anger and fear, they feel that their animals are being attacked. Of course, polled dexters are wonderful animals. They are very popular and I have seen many very fine animals. The problem is they just don't fit into the description of the Dexter Breed. I invite you and everyone else to take the time and research the Dexter Breed. Check out our foundation animals on the Historical page on Facebook. Really look and see what Dexters really look like. They are so unique and special, so different from what we see being bred now. We are losing what has made our breed so special. Many of the modern dexters we see now are far more similar to small beef breeds than they are to their ancestors of just a few years ago.
WHY is this important? Because once they are gone they will be gone forever. We will never be able to get them back again. And with the numbers falling at this rate it won't be too far down the road. The unique, small horned breed will be lost.
Hi wvdexters  , I am not angry that polled animals are being bashed. However, it frustrates me to no end that the owners of this breed must continually drive wedges within itself from all sides of every issue. I also cannot stand hypocrisy, and I cannot stand when anyone puts down one thing so they can show theirs as superior...whether we are talking about polled, Chondro, PHA, red, traditional makes no difference to me. I see the value of y'all's animals, and that's in spite of how some insist on putting others down. However, my future dealings would definitely be swayed towards breeders who are more moderate in their statements regarding traits they don't approve of. I own animals from both polled lines and traditional lines, and yes I do love them all, but that's not really the point to my posting. I also love that some folks have dedicated their work within the breed to preserve those old lines, as they are most definitely important. However, regardless of the scandal surrounding SP, he and his descendants have been accepted as registered Dexters for years...doesn't that mean we should work together for the common good of the breed?? |
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kwin
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Post by kwin on Oct 9, 2014 14:43:31 GMT
And lakeport, just thought of something else...rather than try to bring size back down to the standard through the traditional heifers being covered by a polled bull...why not run a traditional bull over girls with SP in their lineage? You wouldn't experience the calving problems, and you'd still get polled animals here and there that are very much a sought after option.
Maybe the association could offer incentives of some sort to folks who took their herd in that direction?
I don't know, it's just really hard to come up with solutions for the future when everyone just wants to deal with the past.
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Post by legendrockranch on Oct 9, 2014 15:01:25 GMT
Hans,
The information I posted was from a ADCA Bulletin telling about his attributes, his color in that article was not mentioned. There was an ad for his and other bulls semen where color was mentioned, but it was the same as for any other bull. I too an not saying that no breeder ever promoted his color, what I am saying I that I do not believe that is the main reason people purchased his semen is what he brought into the breed as far as udder conformation and milk performance. Today you will still find many breeders whose websites still promote his progenies milking ability.
Barb |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2014 16:30:19 GMT
A few thoughts from reading various posts: Two bull pictures designed to mislead I think; One is Saltaire Platinum and the other is a bull of another breed, ambiguous wording would seem to deliberately leave the impression that both are SP. A poster asked for pic. identification/provenance which I have not seen provided yet. SP was quite a small bull and calves I have seen of this line are small and quite refined. Larger size where it appears must have come from the female side and been selected for. It would seem that if repeating something often enough it becomes 'truth', as evidenced by many of the posts here.
Comments about Lucifer and red: Breeders at the time were going for milking Dexters. Red was also desired. Red did NOT come only from Lucifer. A simple search will reveal a WM cow red carrier. And, guess what! there is nothing wrong with red or breeding for red, (unless, from what one reads here, it came from a UK import bull). It is one of the foundation colors of the breed.
Dun. Recent poster thinks dun was "introgressed" from "Foundation Stock". Foundation stock is Foundation stock. How can something be considered "introgressed' in foundation stock?
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Post by lonecowhand on Oct 9, 2014 17:16:15 GMT
Hey Kwin, being new to all this, I know how you feel about the divisiveness within the breed. It would be nice to find middle ground.
The problem is that calling something "Okay" that is not okay doesn't change it; in 20 or a hundred years. We're observing the results of 20 years of allegation of deceit,distrust,insult and innuendo all stemming from a relaxation (at the least) of breed standards by the very association charged with the protection of breed standards. Decades of Bad Blood, figuratively and factually. Like you, I don't know what action would fix all that.
Dexters are a good and unique breed, they are used to add "goodness",their valued traits, to alot of other breeds, whether temperament, thriftyness,immunity. Traditional Dexters need to be protected as the gene pool to which future breeders can turn.
When a breed of anything useful has been kept intact for a hundred years or so, there have been good reasons: it has passsed the test of time and should be preserved intact. Thats the basis on which to build consensus.
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Post by otf on Oct 9, 2014 19:58:11 GMT
Dexters are a good and unique breed, they are used to add "goodness" to alot of other breeds, whether temperament, thriftyness,immunity. Traditional Dexters need to be protected as the gene pool to which future breeders can turn. lonecowhand, I must take exception to your statement about using Dexters to add "goodness" to other breeds. If by adding "goodness" to other breeds, you mean crossing them with Angus, Jersey, or whatever, then this is a disservice to the Dexter breed. Nothing irritates me more than someone telling me "we don't want to show" or "we just want milk and don't care about registrations." It's insulting to a breeder who has put time, effort, and money into testing, vaccinations, and paperwork to see young Dexters go to new homes that are dead ends -- where calves are not registered and the bloodlines end. Part of my 2-hour tour when meeting prospective buyers and showing them the herd is including the importance of participating in the registry, whichever one they choose. If they're only in it because they want to increase the amount of beef or milk and don't value the Dexter for what it has been and still is, then I politely suggest they find another breed. And I know there are plenty of people who continue to breed their cows to a bull of a larger breed; a few years back they'd have been horsewhipped for doing this. Now they're praised for their efforts to generate a larger carcass. If they want more milk, they need to get a Jersey, a Holstein, a Guernsey, a Milking Shorthorn, or a Milking Devon (there are probably others I've omitted). If they want more beef, they should use a commercial beef animal and stop diluting the Dexter gene pool! I've always felt it a responsibility to do the paperwork, including the transfer of registrations to the new owner. I learned that lesson after purchasing a group of 7 Dexters (cows, calves, and bulls) whose paperwork had been neglected by a previous owner. It involved completing paperwork and mailing it to two previous owners for signatures for each animal (and paying for) the transfers for each animal and we were fortunate to have the records to do it. Of course, that was before all this testing was available. Hard to imagine being able to afford all of that these days. We started with Dexters in 1999, treating them as the heritage breed they supposedly were, horns and all. (I still believe, somehow, that the split into ADCA and PDCA caused a major overlap in numbers and that is why they're no longer considered endangered or rare by the ALBC.) The associations seem to have moved far away from the heritage aspect of Dexters and that is a sad, sad thing to me. My impression is that the ADCA is more intent on modernizing the Dexter image instead of building on its history. Perhaps I am wrong.
While our herd has deviated somewhat from the true traditional Dexters, I firmly believe that Legacy has outdone both the ADCA and PDCA by offering breeders a complete array of testing at a reasonable price, working with UC Davis, and parentage verification. Not long ago, the ADCA tried to force genotyping of cows down its members' throats without providing the educational background to convince people that this was a good idea; I was quite vocal about this at the time because breeders had fairly recently been required to genotype bulls and just weren't ready to fork over the money to do cows as well. I hesitate to mention the fact that this executive decision to genotype cows was announced in small print on the back of a post card reminding members to pay their dues. I've still not seen much effort by the ADCA to educate members about why this is a good thing, but Legacy is convincing people of the wisdom of parentage verification.
Sorry, I didn't mean to be so long-winded about all of this. I guess I've got some pretty strong opinions about Dexters. I wonder how much flack this post will generate. Oh well. |
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Post by lonecowhand on Oct 9, 2014 20:45:06 GMT
I gotcha otf:
Yes I gotta say that was vague. Some breeders of other types will use a dexter to make a small calf on a first time heifer, and all you have to do is look on craigslist or similar to see a host of dexter crosses, like to make the jersey smaller. If it were my choice , they'd all be horned dwarfs with swinging udders. Mia culpa!
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Post by otf on Oct 9, 2014 22:07:22 GMT
lonecowhand, I neglected to say in my long post that I really have no problem with using a Dexter bull on other breeds as you mention, for example, calving ease for heifers; but I do dislike using other bulls on Dexters. Thanks for replying and I do want to reiterate that I was not reprimanding you personally. Hope you realize that!
Gale
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Post by lakeportfarms on Oct 10, 2014 0:36:20 GMT
Kwin, you raise some good points and some solutions including a proportional bull registration based on herd size, but I'm afraid it's never going to happen. For one, the ADCA makes money on all of those bull registrations, and if they later can't sell them as bulls, well, they still got their registration fees. I'm surprised they have retained the 2 year old cutoff before the registration doubles, and not reduced it to a year like heifers. Breeding polled cows or heifers to bulls out of traditional genetics is great, but from what I've seen the trend among polled breeders is to have a homozygous polled bull, and eliminate any chance of having horns. I have a herd of over 40 chondro carriers now (around 100 total Dexters), and though I wrote a letter to the ADCA about the Region 3 director's statement, I've never received a response. I am getting to the point where I don't feel the ADCA cares much about the unique appeal that the Dexter breed (I'm speaking of chondro, horns, and traditional dual purpose phenotype) has to some of it's members. And frankly, some of the articles and descriptions of the Dexter do not resemble what some are breeding today. I consider myself fortunate that our first introduction to the Dexter was a carrier bull and cow almost 10 years ago now. The breed is being redefined, and not only is it a tragedy, but I think it explains why many of us consider ourselves the red headed stepchildren of the Dexter breed now. No offense to redheads, I'm the father of two of them  |
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Post by genebo on Oct 10, 2014 1:13:20 GMT
This thread is filled with people who conceal their identity to express strong opinions. Cheap shotting. Hoping for no accounability. Your statements should be given no more weight than the backing you are willing to give it.
A person can be known by their words, but only if the words can be attributed to the person expressing them. Otherwise you are simply trash talking.
In comparison, read over the words of otf. Powerful words with an inherent honesty to them that can't be denied. Well known for her positions and willing to stand behind them.
I admire her. I respect her word.
Judy, once again I urge you to restrict the right of guests to post, since there is no value in the words of someone who won't stand behind them. Snipers.
I urge everyone else to ignore those who register with a goofy name and hide in anonimity.
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kwin
Junior Member
Posts: 19
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Post by kwin on Oct 10, 2014 14:36:33 GMT
Lakeport, not all of us with polled genetics are striving towards homozygous polled  . I recently purchased stock from a breeder who feels the same as I do and was also putting together an extremely diverse herd. Maybe I'm just a glass half full kind of girl, but I have hope that more owners, maybe particularly new ones, will come around. Gene, I don't personally know any of y'all, so you might as well have an anonymous account as well, and yet I can still listen to & respect what you say on here, or not. I guess that's the beauty of the internet :/. I could also come on here and tell you who I am and really make myself look good with all sorts of believable, false stories (which is not what I think any of y'all do, just an example)...would that really make you respect me more? Silly. I was hoping for an honest dialogue, without the bickering, regarding animals that are near and dear to us all. Sometimes just knowing who the opinion comes from turns our ears off, even if they have valid points we just can't hear them cause of our history with them. Otf, totally agree on how frustrating it is for Dexters to just get lost. Makes you wonder how many good genetics are just grazing around out there in anonymity since their owners didn't do their paperwork for whatever reason. I cringe whenever I see someone post about how they don't want to jump through the hoops and will just sell unregistered stock. And parentage verification is a must in my opinion as well Lonecowhand & wvdexters thanks for your replies |
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. I recently purchased stock from a breeder who feels the same as I do and was also putting together an extremely diverse herd. Maybe I'm just a glass half full kind of girl, but I have hope that more owners, maybe particularly new ones, will come around.