Raining carriers ????

[Donlin Stud]

Hi Everyone but particularly Lakeports.

We are excited, our first keeper carrier boy is coming 'online' as a sire this breeding season.
Just a few weeks to go when boys will be with their chosen girls.

And without purposely trying to do it - we will be joining carriers with non-carriers for every expected 2015 calf.

We have had three disappointed homes who were actively seeking a carrier or two, and ended up with none.

A person on a FB Dexter group messaged me just recently amazed we not only kept a carrier bull intact but intended breeding him........................

Im still lost or still too new to understand what the big deal is in keeping carrier boys especially when I read there are lots of people overseas who do.

[lakeportfarms]

That's great news Donlin! I'm not sure people realize that the only real way to boost the number of carriers is to use a carrier bull. If you are relying only on carrier cows, there is a good chance you're only going to draw even or maybe increase by one cow over her lifetime.

Our customers LOVE their carrier bulls, and we make arrangements with them that if they have shorty heifers and want to expand their herd, we'll exchange a yearling steer or their choice of a long-legged heifer for their shorty. We'll always have our shorty bulls, but expect the number of carrier cows to increase over the coming years. This works very well for people who are interested in a small herd but don't want to mess with AI. People who want beef get a head start on their freezer date, and we get a nice shorty heifer in return. I should add that this is with people who maintain a relatively closed herd. If they're buying a bunch of other animals from various farms it doesn't work for us.

[genebo]

There are a large number of people here who are quite vocal in their opposition to carriers. They have an impact on new Dexter owners and have dramatically reduced the number of people who raise Dexter carriers.

Many new owners have been attracted to Dexters by the short legged little moos. They come aboard without going through the on-line bombardment of the anti carrier people. They want shorties, just like the pictures they saw in the history books and read about in the newspaper articles. They are directed to the prominent few who raise shorties, to buy their stock.

Hardly a week goes by that I don't get a request for a shortie heifer. The buyers are predominantly looking for a pet that can also function as a farm cow. I never have enough shorties to meet the demand. I try to keep track of which other owners have shorties available and send them a customer every once in a while.

I don't get nearly as many requests for a carrier bull, for keeping a carrier bull precludes them from owning carrier cows. I feel that they prefer owning shortie cows.

When I have visitors come here to see the herd, and there is a shortie heifer here at that time, the visitors are drawn to the shortie heifer. Most leave with the intent to buy that heifer or to find one just like her somewhere else. When they call back to talk about the dexters, most of them can't remember the non-carrier cows and heifers. The shortie has captured their heart.

[wvdexters]

Congratulations Donlin!  We are right there with you.  Enjoy your bull and what great news that shorties are "in" in your area too.

[lakeportfarms]

Gene,

You're correct on the preference for carriers for those who have not been bombarded. From what we've found, if they're going to have a bull, they'll choose the chondro bull, long legged cow option rather than the other way around. They wish of course that they could have carriers on both sides, but since many milk they also feel the long legged cow to be a little more practical for hand milking. Some decide they're just going to have two separate herds.

I can't tell you how many visitors we've had who have shown up with a "no way do I want the carrier", and they leave wondering when we'll have one available to sell to them. I've got a little shortie bull born a few weeks ago, probably Mike's last boy, out of his granddaughter, and he is so stinkin' cute. I never get tired of looking at them, and rarely do I get that feeling with a long legged calf.

Thanks for the call yesterday to say hello and see how we're doing. Get well and we're looking forward to our visit to the area next June!

[lonecowhand]

Keep the Carriers Comin', you guys. I'm so glad they are in demand, you all will save the breed!

Lakeportfarms, please explain the advantages of shortie bull on long-leg girls, as opposed to long-leg bull on shortie cows, I'm not grasping the difference in shortie production ratios. Thanks!

Bill

[lakeportfarms]

Lonecowhand, if you have carrier cows, assuming for simplicity 12 calves out of that cow's lifespan, you will only have three shortie heifers, one to replace, one to expand, and one to sell (or two to expand if you don't sell the carriers). You may end up with more, but you may end up with fewer too. Since shorties are relatively hard to come by, it's going to take a long time to build a herd of any size that way, and even then your replacement shorties are going to be getting up there in age by the time you do. With long legged Dexters so readily available, a short bull can produce dozens of carriers in a relatively short time frame, and then if you desire your short carrier cow herd you simply sell off (or put in the freezer) your long legged cows and viola!, you have your short herd in a far shorter time frame. Since the herd you're producing is one you're going to keep, you can select an exceptional short bull, who should improve on some of your long legged girls. I'd never sell you my best shortie heifers...but I have an abundance of very nice long legged Dexters that I don't really want to keep. AND I also have an abundance of very nice shortie bulls too, because I'm producing so many, and the demand for the shortie bull is fairly low. So you see how you can start out with a higher quality foundation herd than you otherwise could?

Now, some of us (looking in mirror) have a hard time selling off or butchering the non-carrier cows that are producing, so we end up running both types of herds for an extended period of time. I have some really long legged girls that I can't bear to part with just yet, but those girls will be producing some nice carriers for us in years to come. But you can see how we've expanded our shortie herd with relative ease over the past several years, knowing that Mike's time was limited and we would be making the transition to a majority shortie cow herd. I think if you want to increase the odds of having shorties, that it is easier to do so with a carrier that expresses the gene in a more obvious manner, with Mike our final percentage of carriers was 82% of his calves, and this includes the crossbreeding we did with him on Highland and Angus breeds (116 total calves).

By the way, Mike hung at 490 lbs. I'd guess that he was probably 150 lbs. live weight lower than his maximum (at 8 years old). It was all hamburger, but we did get the beef fillet, a bit under 6 lbs. I'll probably break down and have some of that.

[Donlin Stud]

Hi Bill

I'm still yet to clarify with Lakeports, but my thoughts are of two advantages:
1. (Some) Shortie bulls tend to share their BD1 gene more so than the shortie girls, or
2. It's a numbers game. Shortie bulls can produce more calves in a single breeding season than available shortie girls, hence raising the percentages.

Lakeports which advantage helps the cause?

Edited to add: Lakeports bet me to the post *L*

[cascade]

Are you talking about PHA carriers?
Or Chondrodysplasia carriers?

Both are lethal genes

calfology.com/library/wiki/dwarfism-condrodysplasia

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethal_allele

[Deleted]

Cascade I am sure Lakeport is talking about condo. I really wish people would
STOP calling condo and PHA lethal genes without explaining why for the sake of
people interested in new animals. Its time for all of us to assemble a newby
husbandry manual that completely explains all aspects. If you truly what a
perfect Dexter good luck.
I truly believe that LAKEPPOT and anyone else on here are not in the business
of producing or selling any inferior livestock. With out condo in the overall
genetics Dexters will be a large breed at some point and they will disappear is
this your intention.
By all the discreptions I have read and heard I may have a condo dun bull calf
on the ground right now and I almost butchered his mother due to pha before I
understood all the aspects. I am only after the milk and meat and will never
sell a pha Dexter but they are exceeding our purpose at the moment.
All genetically pure livestock breeds have a issue that can be lethal and
some even to humans. It is the responability of the owners to maintain those
issues not the breed.

[lakeportfarms]

Blessing Farms, if you haven't had much experience with Kirk, I'll save you some time...he trolls the internet looking for glowing comments on the benefits of chondrodysplasia and then jumps in with inflammatory language or in this case photos. He knew exactly what we were talking about. It's too bad a breeder like he was attracted to the Dexter breed in the first place, but there isn't much that can be done about it other than respond to him. The ADCA doesn't appear to be willing to sanction members who speak poorly of chondrodysplasia, which is the basis on which the breed was founded. All I can say is that he must not understand the simplicity of breeding around chondrodysplasia very well to avoid the 25% chance of a bulldog calf IF you did happen to breed 2 chondro carriers together, which can easily be avoided.

I'm not going to post the example, but Kirk is all talk and little action. I recently saw a photo of one of his breedings, and all I can say is that they are not the short compact cattle that he claims to produce. Furthermore, the udder on this cow was terrible; I'd be embarrassed to have a cow have an udder like that. He claims he culls heavily for things like this, yet if you look at his list of Dexters he's bred over the years, you'll find that not one of them is reported as deceased.

He's simply one of the early adopters of red polled, which attracts a lot of beginners thinking they don't have to dehorn their calves. I'd like to see their faces when their polled bull and cow produce a horned calf! And of course if you don't want to de-horn, you probably also don't want to tag ears, and then more importantly castrate less than desirable bulls which are then sold on to unsuspecting beginners or even existing breeders desperate to jump on the red polled bandwagon which perpetuate the poor genetics.

[genebo]

Lets not let the chondro bashers turn this forum into a battleground like they did dextercattle2 and Irish Dexter Cattle. Let them stay home where they have already ruined it for Dexter lovers. Responding to their hate mongering only gives them an opportunity to spew some more.

If he continues to spout his diatribe against us or our Dexters, the ADCA Ethics Committee should be called in again.

[cascade]

Nov 22, 2014 9:53:37 GMT Blessings Farms said:

Cascade I am sure Lakeport is talking about condo. I really wish people would
STOP calling condo and PHA lethal genes without explaining why for the sake of
people interested in new animals.

The links I provided above clearly explain why PHA and Chondrodysplasia are lethal genes. 

Animals have many genes that code for ESSENTIAL functions (heart function, lung function, bone growth, etc..) If these genes are broken, then the animal forms improperly and dies at a young age, usually at birth or before birth.   The broken genes are called lethal genes because they interrupt a function that is essential for life.

Concerning Chondrodysplasia, the body cells that build cartilage and bone are called Chondroblasts (Chondros is the greek word for Cartilage).  A primary gene that instructs the Chondroblasts to develop normally is called the Agrecan (ACAN) gene.   If the ACAN gene is broken via a mutation, then the resulting abnormal Chondroblasts can't form normal cartilage and bone.

Animals generally receive two good working genes from their parents for each function (one from the mother and one from the father).  In the case of the Agrecan (ACAN) gene, if one of the two genes is broken, then the animal will be a partially deformed dwarf (abnormal cartilage, abnormal bone growth, etc.). If both ACAN genes are broken (one from each parent) then the animal will be fully deformed and will die at an early age (at or before birth). 



Chondro-Dysplasia  =   Cartilage Deformity

The good news is that breeders (who choose to do so) can breed for friendly, healthy, compact dexters with  NORMAL short legs, that don't have the lethal gene.

Here is a nice-looking normal short dexter cow with normal short legs and she does NOT have the Chondrodysplasia Lethal Gene  (she has two good normal working ACAN genes).  A normal short non-chondro cow like this can be bred on a normal short non-chondro bull and throw 100% normal short legged calves with no Chondrodysplasia lethal genes and no deformities.



Hope these facts are useful

[Donlin Stud]

Donlin Dexters proudly breed with Chondrodysplasia producing Dexters with a single chondro gene that draw the attention and desire to own from small acre hobby farmers and tree changers so much so that we are currently sourcing non-carrying heifers and bull calves from a stud 8 hours away with the promise to these new owners they can use one of our two Dexter boys who carry that one Chondro gene so they can produce their own single gene carriers of Chondro from their non-Chondro carrying Dexters.

The total sale is 6 new Dexter owners: 14 Dexters in the next 6 months.

Market demands the lethal gene carrying animals and we are sure going to answer that demand.

Long live Chondrodysplasia !!!!

[cascade]

Many Chondro-Breeders usually offer their customers only two choices:

1. Tall, too-long-legged, larger, more intimidating-looking cattle (intimidating to those who want smaller cattle)
2. Friendly, small cattle with short legs (Chondro-dwarfs carrying a lethal gene) - these don't breed true.

It's easy to create option 2... Just take a big cow and breed her on a bull with a chondro lethal gene and you get instant dwarf cattle (but they have a lethal gene and they don't breed true)

But there is a 3rd choice..

3. Friendly, small, shorter-legged cattle WITHOUT the lethal gene - These breed true (they're true-shorts).

Someone wanting small cattle might choose option-2 over option-1... but they'll be surprised when only 50% of their calves are born small and the other 50% are tall and too-long-legged. Often, folks who want smaller cattle aren't told about option-3. EVERYONE who is considering option-2 (short and friendly WITH the lethal chondro defect gene), should be told about option-3 (short and friendly WITHOUT the lethal defect gene). The true-shorts breed true, so all of their calves will be short.

[cascade]

Nov 22, 2014 13:48:11 GMT lakeportfarms said:

 I'd like to see their faces when their polled bull and cow produce a horned calf!

Homozygous polled bulls have 100% polled calves no matter who they are bred on.

If you never want horns, then you simply use a homozygous polled bull.  Our first bull was red, homozygous polled, and A2/A2...   We bred him on horned girls and got 100% polled calves.  Our current primary bull is also Homozygous Red, Homozygous Polled, and Homozygous A2/A2 and so are many of his calves.   Being homozygous means that they can breed true (unlike lethal gene carriers that can never breed true and can never be homozygous without being born dead).
 
PS.  There is no need to register an animal if you don't think they are good quality.  Just cull them without registering them.  I like to wait till they are older to register them, so I don't waste a perfectly good registration name on a possible cull.   

PPS. It's a good idea to tag all calves before they are 24 hours old, to keep records straight.  My friends with huge ear piercings tell me the pain is minimal, and the newborn calves barely even notice the tagging.

PPPS.  Breeding for true-shorts takes time and effort and breeding skill.  You won't get there overnight.  Over time, our herd's height is gradually dropping with a lot of true shorts occurring and we haven't had a too-tall one born for a good number of years.

[genebo]

See what I mean? For every response you make to him, he responds with more of his garbage. The same old tired stuff that ruined other forums and turned them into battlegrounds. It's what he lives for.

[lakeportfarms]

Edited to add: Gene, you're correct, Kirk seems to have a problem, but the more he posts the more he lays bare his bias and ridiculous arguments.  It becomes apparent to many who read his posts.  Eventually he goes away but in the meantime you can't let him air his little rants without some type of response.   If you'll notice he's been registering fewer of his Dexters over the years, people are tired of his posts and fewer want to be associated with him, maybe one day he'll figure it out.

Yes, this is a very nice Dun, non-carrier, horned (de-horned) Dexter.  A type of Dexter that you do not raise. A Dexter from a long line of English breeding over dozens of years.   I can pick a few out of our herd that are very close to her in their color, phenotype, and yes size, that are non-carriers.  I have quite a few Dexters from Woodmagic breedings here, one of the advantages I suppose of my proximity to Ontario, Canada, where the first Woodmagic imports were brought to North America.

Why do you choose to omit the facts about polled genetics when you are so detailed about how chondrodysplasia works?  Even if you use a homozygous polled bull (which has many issues long discussed here and elsewhere), if used over a heterozygous polled cow you run the chance of getting a heterozygous polled calf, who then run the chance of a horned calf if not bred again to a homozygous polled bull.  I've seen many homozygous polled animals and they do NOT resemble the typical Dexter phenotype, and the concentration of the polled genetics will also bring with it other traits that are not "Dexter like".  Living in cold Michigan, I see polled lines that develop only the slightest of a winter coat, they do not resemble in ANY way the traditional lines horned Dexters that we also own.  They are not as winter hardy, they eat more feed, and they do not have the same gentle easy going temperaments that either the long or especially short leg Dexters out of more traditional lines.  I have a non-carrier polled Dexter.  Well, actually she is de-horned, but her parents, her grandparents, and her great grandparents were ALL polled Dexters.  Explain that please Kirk? Polled that didn't breed true, correct?  We call her the "naked cow" this time of year.  I had others that I sold, and Shelby will be going to a new home next spring. And since I have many of all types of Dexters (all colors, short and long legged, polled and traditional horned) I can compare these all side by side (something you can't do) and as most of us would agree, a WIDE range of experience will often teach you a lot more than reading something off of the internet.

When I first started raising cattle, they looked so big to us.  Granted, we started with Angus and Herefords, but we did have a lowline Angus cow who was very Dexter sized, though didn't really realize it at the time.  We couldn't imagine having a bull on our property.  One chondro carrier bull named Mike changed all of that.  If it wasn't for the Dexter chondro gene, we probably would have been struggling with AI for a while,  and eventually gave up and let the orchard go back to a more natural state, raise goats or sheep, or lease it out during part of the year for hunting.  Now, even the Angus don't look so big to us.  When we went to purchase the red polled Dexter cows a few years back in our experiment, they didn't look too large to us at the farm we purchased them from.  They looked pretty normal, at least until we brought them back to our farm and compared them side by side to our existing Dexters (including the non-chondro ones).  It was then that we noticed the differences between the two types.  Guess what?  Visitors to our farm noticed the differences as well.  Die hard "I want a polled Dexter" buyers came to the farm and did a complete reversal after comparing the various types side by side.  Most switched to wanting the shorties, even after learning about how you have to breed around chondrodysplasia.  And it only took one winter of feeding hay for us to determine which direction we were going to go with our herd from then forward.  We thought about keeping them because they were so effective at educating our buyers, but determined that it just wasn't worth it.

Why don't you run that little experiment yourself?  Get yourself a NICE chondro carrier cow for a year or two.  Spend some time with her, breed her to your homozygous red polled bull for all I care!  NO CHANCE AT ALL of a bulldog calf like the picture you like to post so much to shock and scare people away.  You have a 25% chance of getting some nice tiny shorty polled heifers that you will find a hard time selling, not because there won't be a demand, but because you'll fall in love with the personality and the considerably smaller size than your "true short" cows.  Be careful not to let her get too fat though if she has access to the same feed your others get.  If you happen to get a chondro bull, steer him and enjoy your tasty beef a few months earlier than you are otherwise used to out of you long legged steers.  If you get a long legged steer, think about that tiny cow raising a steer that will probably wean at 9 months, at her height and 80-90% of her weight, while easily keeping her condition just on hay or good pasture.

After you've done that, then I'll give you more credibility about your comparisons between chondro vs. non-chondro Dexters, because you don't have the real world experience others like myself and others here that raise both types have had.

[cascade]

Nov 23, 2014 13:19:14 GMT lakeportfarms said:

Even if you use a homozygous polled bull (which has many issues long discussed here and elsewhere), if used over a heterozygous polled cow you run the chance of getting a heterozygous polled calf

Living in cold Michigan, I see polled lines that develop only the slightest of a winter coat

The following features CAN breed 100% true.  If you so choose, you can have an entire herd of them with 100% of calves born with these features as long as you select for homozygosity (two of the same genes).

1. Entire herd of black cows/bulls
2. Entire herd of red cows/bulls
3. Entire herd of dun cows/bulls (they'll need homozygous black genes and homozygous dun genes)
4. Entire herd of homozygous polled cows/bulls (zero chance of ever having horns)
5. Entire herd of naturally short non-chondro dexters

That's because you can select homozygous blacks, homozygous reds, homozygous duns, homozygous polled animals, and 100% naturally short (non-chondro) dexters.
Homozygous = both genes for that feature are the same.
Homozygous animals breed true.

On the other hand, you CAN'T EVER have an entire herd of chondro-dwarfs, because the chondrodysplasia gene is lethal.
Homozygous Chondro-Dwarf = Dead VERY Deformed Calf (as pictured above)
Living Chondro-dwarfs are essentially heterozygous hybrids that don't breed true.
At most, you can only have 50% of live calves born with chondrodysplasia.

The polled gene is 100% independent from other features such as size or winter hairiness.

There really is no such thing as "Polled Lines" because you can introduce the polled gene to ANY line of Dexters (just like you can introduce red or black or dun to ANY line of dexters). If you introduce the polled gene to a winter-hairy line of cattle and you select for winter hairiness, then you'll have winter-hairy polled dexters. Almost all of ours are VERY shaggy in winter and they never have shelter other than trees.  We have terrible winters here because we get lots of freezing cold rain (I prefer snow and so do the cows).


Here's a typical winter-hairy polled dexter at our place.




PS. Did you know that Saltaire Platinum (polled) was a fairly short legged (non-chondro) nearly 50% Woodmagic Bull? 

Saltaire Platinum's Pedigree
 

[Donlin Stud]

Nov 23, 2014 18:16:43 GMT cascade said:

The following features CAN breed 100% true.  If you so choose, you can have an entire herd of them with 100% of calves born with these features as long as you select for homozygosity (two of the same genes).

Boring !!!!!!
If we wanted to be that bored, we would have filled the paddocks with Brangus cattle and sold them for a very easy and nice profit to the export market.

[jamshundred]

PS. Did you know that Saltaire Platinum (polled) was a fairly short legged (non-chondro) nearly 50% Woodmagic Bull?



Saltaire Platinum's Pedigree

NO! Kirk, that is NOT Saltaire Platnum's pedigree.  That is the pedigree that started with an error/fraud ( no one seems to be able to substantiate which).  I have seen that "nearly 50% Woodmagic" quote before, and from the most frustrating prevaricator I've ever dealt with.     

Below is a revised copy of what is the actual pedigree according to the RULES AND REGULATIONS in place in the UK at the time of the birth of Saltaire Platinum's ancestral matriarch who started it all.

YOU, NOR ANY OTHER POLLED BREEDER HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT GENETICS ARE IN ***FOUR**** ANIMALS ON THE PEDIGREE OF SALTAIRE PLATINUM IN THE MOST CURRENT 10 GENERATIONS.


Kirk, this is a travesty and a tragedy in the Dexter breed in America.   TRUE Dexters are being culled and eliminated from this breed and the breed changed for all time based on error or fraud.   How can you not only sanction the lies and deceit, but support and promote it?   A lie is a lie. . . no matter who tells it or where it is told. 

Let me explain one more time.

In England, breeders were required to submit information on the births in their herd in a timely fashion which included the eartag identifications.  If the herd was managed properly, these numbers would have been in  the order of the birth of the calves that were identified and recorded.     The owner of Esmeralda reported this calf as a HORNED calf.   She was a polled calf.  They did NOT register polled in England when Esmeralda was born.  Because the erroneous information was submitted to DCS the cow was registered and given a regular sequenced number in the DCS registry.   That was mistake number one in the chain of events that has wiped out the traditonal Dexter breed in the US.  Please, read that again.   It was an ERROR based on a submission to the registrar that was in error that gave Esmeralda a registry number she DID NOT qualify to have.   (1)  Polled cattle were not registered  (2) animals that were outcrossed with HORNS were placed in the upgrade registry.   This information, without questioin, regarding registry procedures in England is accurate.   Esmerald was registered IN ERROR.   ( Would you like to see the actual herd book page from the UK?).   

The son of Esmeralda, and sire to Saltaire Platinum, Migh Poldark, did NOT qualify to be registered based on the rules of the DCS for upgraded cattle.   Remember, Esmeralda was an upgraded cow, no scientific evidence or proof otherwise, and MALE offspring of upgraded cows were NEVER entered into the registry.   

Saltaire Platinum would have likely been beef or used in outcrossed breedings because his Sire would not have been registered had there not been either error/fraud involved in the registration of Esmeralda.

WAIT ! !     HOLD ON A SECOND! !    There is MORE!

Move to the other side of the pedigree and you find the next error/fraud.  ( This has been substantiated by a number of involved people as well as the original registry record archived in England of which I have a copy).

Homer Rixey Piella was originally registered in 1969 in the DCS appendix (upgrade) registry with the registry number A-169.  Her sire was merely listed as "outcrossed".  No other identification. She was registered in 1969 in a year when a herd book was not printed.
There came a time when this cow was purchased by another breeder.  This breeder resubmitted the registration with a different sire, ( in error) and a standard registry number was issued.

As an appendix cow, the male offspring are never registered, therefore, the next male in this lineage was also not eligible for registration.

Kirk,  over 85% of all registrations in America now have this one bull, from this really dreadful mess in their pedigrees.   You have him in ALL of yours!    You never discuss this.   You WILL likely be discussing it more.   We have NO idea what recessives are being linebred in these animals, but there are more and more reports of dead calves and dead cows.  Something is amiss out there and the chickens will come home to roost.
Karma never permits this kind of deceit to go unpunished.  What is taking place in the American herd. . .   . based on deceit. . . .  .is egregious.

We have a mongrel mutt taking over a wonderful breed of heritage cattle that survived the absolute worse conditions possible.  Not only thrived but survived. . .  .and they are being bred into extinction by a mongrel mutt bull registered in error/fraud/deceit.  Egregious travesty.   

I watch polled breeders on a daily basis posting photos of their animals ( most of which more resemble Angus and Jersey cattle than traditional Dexters)  and doing high-fives among yourselves, and my heart breaks because nearly to a person you choose to bury your head in the sand, you chose to believe the lies instead of searching for the truth, and you are NOT willing to shoulder ANY financial loss for the mistake you've made when it is easier to pretend.  Pretend a lie is truth even now when you know better.

Most of you revere nature, raise your own organic meat and vegetables. make your own jellies and jams,  complain of and fear climate change, grow gardens, can, try to leave a minimal carbon footprint. . .  .. . .and yet you bury your heads in the sand and pretend it is perfectly OK to literally wipe out a really wonderful little breed of cattle with a bull that is not only genetically engineering the breed from horned to hornless. . . . . but is doing so when there are FOUR outctrossings in his ten pedigree bloodline.   

Nary a one of you would permit this deceit in your registered pedigreed dog. 

Judy

Attachments:

[cascade]

All dexters have scores of non-dexters and a good number of errors in their distant pedigrees (that's true of any old breeds of animals).  Only good ongoing selection against a set of breed selection criteria keeps dexters as dexters.

Saltaire Platinum certainly looks like a good shorter-legged compact Dexter.   His descendants on our farm have been problem free, productive, and incredibly healthy and friendly.  

[jamshundred]

No Kirk. This bull does not look like traditional Dexter bulls. And the part of his face I can see looks like a beef head/face. Do you EVER wonder, as I do, why this is the only photo ever shown of this bull? Have you ever seen a photo of his sire? What is the big secret.? Are we sure the semen you are using is from the bull in this photo? If so, unlike Woodmagic Hedgehog who throws himself quire regularly, I do not see offspring from this bull throwing much of him other than a lack of horns. Why is that? You regularly extolled the virtues of a bull that really does not throw himself as animals heavy in Woodmagic usually do. Stop supporting the fairy tale!!! It is wiping out individual animals as well as an entire breed with characteristics valued for at least a couple centuries. YOU are helping to eliminate them. Your "NewDex" animals that you call true short are just that! NEWDEX. Give them the new identity they deserve! There IS science to show they are not traditional Dexters

YOU and EVERY polled breeder has a part in the demise of the TRUE Dexter breed. Sleep on that

Judy

[lakeportfarms]

I was thinking the same thing Judy. You'd think that Platinum was born in the age when photographers stood behind large boxes on tripods with a black curtain over their heads, big plates, and a powder flash. Why no other pictures, it was the 90's for crying out loud. You'd think that with all the effort to import him to North America, and how special he presumably was, that there would have been photos galore of him pasted all over the internet, or at least a few more professional photos taken.

I believe there was far more introgression into polled lines that what is believed by most breeders. Once a bit of polled semen like Platinum and from others became available, it would have been VERY easy to AI Lowline Angus and register the resulting calf as a polled Dexter. Why chance 50% polled when you can have 100% polled? Faster growing, beefier, but still based on genetics with shorter legs. Those who didn't have access to the Lowline probably used a regular Angus or Angus crossed with another Dexter, etc...

When we would breed Mike to our Angus cows when we originally got him for our Angus herd, the calves were not much different than those out of other Dexters, but you could tell differences when looking at them side by side. That was the point I was trying to make in an earlier post. When you run mixed herds of traditional and polled Dexters in close proximity, there is an obvious difference between the two. The changes to the phenotype of the polled Dexters are far too dramatic to be the result of only one bull, no matter how linebred the lines are. Don't get me wrong, the cattle that are being raised are some very nice looking animals, but in a different way.

I find it interesting that there is no longer the "fresh mutation" story running around so much, but there is now the "there were many errors in distant pedigrees" and now a push for parentage verification from the dams as well, especially from members who breed for polled lines. I suppose the polled genetics have sneaked in enough now that they can safely push for parent verification without it affecting their herds, thinking PV adds legitimacy to their own. Like the old saying, "slamming the barn door shut after all the animals have gotten out". Originally I didn't think it was a really big deal, but after looking at some of the animals out there called "Dexters", it just isn't right that they are labeled as such.

[lonecowhand]

Thank you Hans, for the helpful response to my actual question!
Boy, looks like I missed alot over the weekend!

Thank you Cascade, for a bunch of unsolicited data and diatribe no one asked for. I like it better when you stick to the topic of a thread, and draw from your experience to assist those with less.
Try to remember that Dexters were SELECTED from Kerries for their Dwarf genes, there must have been more incidence of bulldog calves (with no understanding) and were STILL were treasured and bred, in spite of the proportional loss.

Just for fun, I'll bite: Could a peanut allergy be considered a lethal gene, since you will die of anaphylactic shock if you eat a peanut?

I gotta hand it to ya, you can fire up the troops!

[cascade]

Nov 24, 2014 17:31:00 GMT lonecowhand said:

Try to remember that Dexters were SELECTED from Kerries for their Dwarf genes, there must have been more incidence of bulldog calves (with no understanding) and were STILL were treasured and bred, in spite of the proportional loss.

Just for fun, I'll bite: Could a peanut allergy be considered a lethal gene, since you will die of anaphylactic shock if you eat a peanut?

Actually, Dexters were selected from Kerrys for their small size, without necessarily knowing whether the small size was natural true shortness, or lethal-gene dwarfism.  Some breeders got lucky and selected naturally shorter dexters without the lethal Chondrodysplasia gene.   Even today, people post pictures of short dexters on discussion boards and play guessing games as to whether they are naturally true-short (without the lethal chondro gene) or lethal gene dwarfs (with the lethal chondro gene).

"Lethal Gene" is a special scientific term that typically means that if the animal gets two copies of the gene, the animal is malformed and can NOT survive beyond birth.  If there is a peanut allergy gene, you could have two of those genes and live a long life and reproduce (just avoid peanuts).  In the case of Chondrodysplasia, two genes = death at or before birth.

I just like to educate people to understand that they can have nice friendly traditional-looking short Dexters WITHOUT the lethal gene.

Three Primary choices concerning height/size  

1.  Larger dexters  (They're still pretty darn small compared to larger breeds)
2.  Shorter dexters WITHOUT the lethal chondro gene (True Shorts)
3.  Shorter dexters WITH the lethal chondro gene  (Chondro Dwarfs)

Here's a horned shorter legged bull (true short) without the lethal chondro gene  (Woodmagic Hedgehog III)




Here's a polled shorter legged bull WITHOUT the lethal chondro gene (Saltaire Platinum,  50% Woodmagic)




You don't need the chondro gene to have short, friendly, polled or horned dexters.

[lonecowhand]

Cascade: My point was that Dexters have had the Chondro condition since the Sorting. Without information,for the first one hundred years all Dexter breeders just put up with the loss of an occasional bulldog calf as a cost of doing business, so great were the positive aspects of Dexters.
Now we know what circumstances contribute to the condition, so it's not a problem which needs to be overlooked anymore , it can be managed. That means one can have a purebred traditional Dexter and have all the advantages, and none of the genetic baggage/dilution that comes with an outcrossing donor.

[cascade]

Nov 25, 2014 0:12:08 GMT lonecowhand said:

Cascade: My point was that Dexters have had the Chondro condition since the Sorting. Without information,for the first one hundred years all Dexter breeders just put up with the loss of an occasional bulldog calf as a cost of doing business, so great were the positive aspects of Dexters.
Now we know what circumstances contribute to the condition, so it's not a problem which needs to be overlooked anymore , it can be managed. That means one can have a purebred traditional Dexter and have all the advantages, and none of the genetic baggage/dilution that comes with an outcrossing donor.

Only a minority of dexters have had the lethal chondro condition since "sorting"..  Many NEVER had it.  That's because lethal genes can't breed true.

Here's a VERY nice horned(de-horned), dun, short cow with NO LETHAL CHONDRO genes
What disadvantages does she have?  What baggage does she have?
She looks pretty good to me.



Every calf a cow like this has, can look just like her because she's a true-breeding, true-short.  If she was chondro, only 50% of her calves would look like this.  Back in history, Chondro breeders culled or hid half of their calves from public view, so they could pretend that they had a "true-short" cattle.  Meanwhile, herds like Woodmagic were developing entire herds of truly short Dexter cattle with no chondro.

My biggest point is that people who love friendly, horned or polled, dual-purpose cattle on the shorter side, should consider the option of having an entire short herd of cattle like the one pictured  (without the lethal chondrodysplasia dwarfing gene).



 

[lonecowhand]

Kirk, continuously saying the same thing over and over does not make it true, it just makes it redundant. You have used the term "Lethal gene" 28 times in this one thread alone. Is there a contest? You tend to cherry pick which info you want to embrace.
I completely disagree with your assumption that your Miraculous Polled Gene is "100%independent" of other features, this was not recombinant DNA lab work, it was outcrossing, when you do it you allow the other entire set of genes in. You potentially dilute the original by 50%.

Bill

[Donlin Stud]

Nov 25, 2014 16:53:10 GMT cascade said:

Only a minority of dexters have had the lethal chondro condition since "sorting"..  Many NEVER had it. 

The above can only be an assumption / personal opinion since there was no DNA testing.