Other pictures of Saltaire Platinum

[kwin]

Not trying to stir up a hornets nest, but the other thread got me thinking...

Are there any other picture of SP out there? If so, can they be posted here?

I'm only looking at small images on my phone so may be missing something, but the picture of SP and WM Hedgehog III don't look all that different.

Seriously not wanting a fight, just researching

Also, maybe y'all could point out the differences you see in the phenotype between SP descendants and all other Dexters?

[cascade]

Here's those pictures again, so folks don't have to go looking for them in another thread

Woodmagic Hedgehog III  (non-chondro, true-short)


Saltaire Platinum (non-chondro, true short)  He's got a lot of Woodmagic in him

[lakeportfarms]

In our search for some Dexters that are out of traditional lines that may carry red, Sheril made contact with a long time breeder that had advertised some horned Dexters for sale on Craigslist. She wrote to inquire about the pedigrees, and they came back with some Platinum in them. She declined for that reason, and the seller wondered why. When Sheril mentioned this, he seemed disturbed by the news, and mentioned he had received assurances from another prominent breeder who has registered many polled animals that SP was 100% pure Dexter. Sheril provided a little background information and to his credit, he did his own significant research on his own. This is the recent e mail he sent to us about SP:

"I just received a reply from the English Dexter Society from Andrew Sheppy. He says yes there was some outcrossing done back in the pedigree of Saltaire Platinum. That Saltaire Platinum is 91.78 percent Dexter the other 8.22 percent is Red Poll , Aberdeen angus and Jersey. He also stated that this information will soon be published in there Dexter society".

So there you have it, and it's apparently going to soon be published in the Dexter Society Bulletin.  What will polled breeders say about that if it gets out in wider circulation?

This is an example of a breeder who was at a minimum misinformed, and possibly deceived, by a large prominent breeder, but he has the integrity to extensively look into the matter himself AND report his research to us.  He was under no obligation to do that!  I would trust this breeder to be honest about the parentage of his Dexters, even if they were not parent verified.  However, you have to wonder about other breeders, including those who were NOT forthcoming about the information when they knew better, those that intentionally claimed that it was the result of a fresh mutation, and those that continue to deny the information, or those who are just unethical and looking for a quick buck, even though there is ample evidence to the contrary that the polled came from upgrades in the breeding.  Though it may not be taking place with the same frequency, I still believe that there was more mixing in of breeds, especially Angus, with some breeders in the United States, given the insane prices red polled were (and to some extent still are) fetching.  What is the quickest way to bring down the size of the polled Dexter?  Breed a red polled Dexter bull to a lowline Angus cow, and take it from there.  You hit the jackpot if you get a bull, and you hit the jackpot further if that bull subsequently throws a homozygous polled red bull in a couple of years out of a red polled Dexter.   I believe this is probably most responsible for the changes to the Dexter phenotype that you see in some animals in the United States.  In my opinion from what I've seen in photographs there are more changes in the US herd, almost on par with some of the photos I've seen from some of the herds in Australia, than there are in the herds in England.  I'd attribute this to the long history of some breeders in England and probably a stronger desire to preserve the breed.  That is also why you probably see more traditional Dexters on the East Coast, which tends to have a higher regard for preservation efforts than points further West (which explains Kirk).

Kwin, I hesitate to take photos of examples of the changes and show what I feel are the differences, since many of these are still active breeders and I don't intend to single anybody out (unless they ask for it like Kirk does).  All I can suggest is to go through the ADCA pedigrees by searching under the descendants of known heavily polled lines, and then do the same for lines that are more traditional, or look at some of the historical photos that Judy posts on her site or the Dexter Cattle Historical site and make your own comparisons.

[kwin]

Thanks for putting the pictures over here cascade

And thank you, too, lakeport for the response . That's definitely an interesting response about soon to be published findings. Can't wait to see the publication. I also appreciate you not wanting to throw other breeders under the bus

MY problem is that I have looked at those historical pictures and compared them to my own animals...and I'm just not seeing the major changes mentioned here. Granted, I've not spent hours examining every picture, but when I look at my herd, I see Dexters. When I'm with my animals, they act like Dexters, eat like Dexters, and calve like Dexters. A couple have no SP in their lineage, a couple have SP once many generations back, and a couple have SP on both sides of their pedigree. So I do have a mixed herd and can compare them side by side.

And this is not a "sentimental" comparison to my own animals, I only mention them cause they are mine and I have direct knowledge of them...I'm not trying to get any "sympathy" over my so called mongrel mutts . This is purely to help me un-muddy the water.

So, maybe since the above image of SP is so widely known, could we maybe point out what his phenotypic differences are without comparing him to any other specific animal? And I'd still love to see any other images of him.

And let's maybe try to keep all other popular arguments about Chondro, etc. out of this discussion? I also think we can all agree that there probably has been and will always be unscrupulous breeders out there from all walks of Dexter type...that's why I think PV is so very important in registered animals. We can probably also agree that when the market is demanding a product causing it to be in short supply, there will be a premium asked for that product until the supply is greater, or the demand drops off. I totally expect to see traditional reds offered at a premium since there are so few of them

[cascade]

Nov 25, 2014 12:55:46 GMT lakeportfarms said:

He had received assurances from another prominent breeder who has registered many polled animals that SP was 100% pure Dexter.

NO dexters are truly "100% pure"  because EVERY dexter has tons of non-dexters in their distant pedigrees.   In the early going, any short animal of any "breed" was called a dexter, by visual inspection.  Dig into the history of any animals of any breed and a you'll find mutts in their backgrounds. 

The ADCA defines "purebred" as any dexter that met the standard for purity at the time it was registered.  By that definition, SP (and every other dexter accepted into the registry) is consider PUREBRED.

The ONLY way to keep animals "pure" is ongoing selection against a set of breed criteria (Small, friendly, dual-purpose cattle).   The registries do a pretty good job of attempting to maintain reasonable purity.  But EVERY pedigree has some errors on it somewhere back in history.   There are ZERO 5-generation full parentage-verified pedigrees in existence yet.


 

[lonecowhand]

Hey, Hans! You're hitting a little close to home out here on the Left Coast!

[kwin]

Hey cascade...let's keep the purity debate for another thread . Maybe you could post those ADCA registration standards & where to find them on it's own easy to find thread?

My purpose for this thread is to find out what phenotype differences some SP descendants exhibit.

So far, within my own herd, the only difference I see is polledness exhibited in some of my SP descendants.

My most heavily SP bred is a yearling heifer with 29.6875% SP. She is 2 weeks younger than my "traditional" yearling heifer and they are almost the same size, with the older girl being a tad smaller. And in all honesty, the SP girl is more docile than the little spitfire "traditional"

My second most heavily SP bred cow is the biggest girl in my herd, but still within breed standard. She calved a teensie calf (didn't weigh her, just my observation), out of a 6.25% SP bull, AND she was 3 days overdue.

I just don't have the numbers to accurately compare the SP descendants to non SP descendants, so was hoping to see what to look for down the road.

[cascade]

Let's look at photos of AI bulls

Traditional Horned, 47"  (no polled ancestors, no Saltaire Platinum)


Traditional Horned, 48" (no polled ancestors, no saltaire platinum)



Traditional Horned 48"  (no polled ancestors, no saltaire platinum)




Polled, 40"  (lots of Saltaire Platinum)



Polled, 43.5" (lots of Saltaire Platinum)

[kwin]

Hey lonecowhand,

Again, good questions, but maybe for another thread?

I really, really want to try to stay on topic so I, and other folks, can easily follow the thread

When I can get to my computer, rather than posting from my phone, maybe I should change the original topic to "SP Phenotype Differences"?

[lakeportfarms]

Nov 25, 2014 17:57:04 GMT cascade said:

Let's look at photos of AI bulls

Traditional Horned, 47"  (no polled ancestors, no Saltaire Platinum)


Traditional Horned, 48" (no polled ancestors, no saltaire platinum)



Traditional Horned 48"  (no polled ancestors, no saltaire platinum)




Polled, 40"  (lots of Saltaire Platinum)



Polled, 43.5" (lots of Saltaire Platinum)

First bull at 7 years of age.
Second bull no age listed but he was collected at an older age
Ned is a large bull, but we do have a cow out of him that is 42" at 6 years of age.  She produces small calves like this 1-1/2 year old bull on the right, next to another 1-1/2 year old bull on the left.  Does he look like a large bull to you?  Are any of yours this small at a similar age?



The two out of Platinum lines that you show I don't believe to be accurate heights, unless they just don't have very full bodies on them.  Look at their legs in relation to the body, there is considerable daylight under them.  Contrast them to our bull Mike, who is 39" tall at 9 years of age in this photo:



Or our current traditional bull Shadwell, who is a Hedgehog III grandson from his dam's side and 36" at 6 years of age:

[genebo]

A short time ago, he stole one of my pictures from the ADCA and used it for one of his diatribes. I reported him to the ADCA Ethics Committee. They responded that they had contacted him and he had promised not to do it again, so they would take no further action. He stopped posting for a couple of months, then resumed.

Now here he is again posting pictures of Dexters he obviously doesn't own and using them for his own purposes. Unless he has obtained permission of the owners of the animals he is using, they should not be posted.

How would you like to log in one day and find that he was using one of your animals as an example of a lethal gene carrier. Believe me, you won't like it.

He has no ethics. Go read some of his past posts. Some are so ridiculus it's hard to believe. So are these. Yet they slide by unchallenged, to remain in the public view.

An example is his list of all the types of Dexters that breed true. He list a homozygous black Dexter as one that will breed true. You could excuse his ignorance if you took into account that he only raises red Dexters. It's an example of how a little bit of knowledge is dangerous. The coat color of a Dexter is governed by more than one set of genes. A black Dexter that is Ed/Ed (homozygous black) can and often is B/b at the dun locus. When this homozygous black Dexter is bred to another just like it, there is every possibility that the offspring will be dun.

Furthermore, he speaks of the polled gene as if it was introduced into Dexters by plucking it from a polled Angus and placing it into a Dexter. Not even remotely true! The offspring of the mating between an Angus and a Dexter results in an offspring that has exactly 1/2 of all of it's genes be Angus. Not just the polled gene, but one of every pair of genes that the Angus had. That includes the many different forms of dwarfism found in Angus, the larger size typical of Angus, The poorer temperament typical of Angus, the larger calf size typical of Angus and the list goes on and on. There are many, many gene pairs in a bovine and the offspring inherits one from each pair that the Angus had. Calling the offspring by the Dexter name is an insult to Dexters.

In further matings, the result is not so clearcut. If the rules for upgrading were followed (which they weren't) then the next mating would be between a female offspring of this mating (which is 1/2 Angus) and a fullblooded Dexter bull. The offspring from this mating will definitely inherit 1/2 of each gene pair from the Dexter bull, but what it inherits from the crossbred cow is a matter of chance. It will inherit one of every gene pairthat the cow has, but which 1/2 can vary. The extremes are that it will inherit nothing but Angus genes from the cow or that it will inherit none but the Dexter genes from the cow. The likelyhood is that it will inherit a mix of the two. Even the polled gene that the cow inherited from the Angus is subject to the same possibilities. Some of the offspring she has with a fullblooded Dexter bull will not inherit the polled gene, and will be horned.

Once the upgrading has been completed and the rules allow breeding the crossbreeds together, the results of each mating becomes harder and harder to predict. It is possible to breed back to a virtually pure Angus or to breed back to a virtually pure Dexter. Proponents of the polled animals like to point to the latter and claim it as the only possibility.

In fact, by culling for polled offspring, the breeders are tilting the odds in favor of reverting to Angus. Throwing the horned offspring out of the picture will eventually increase the likelihood that the Angus genes in an individual animal will outnumber the Dexter genes. Continued matings between the Angus descendants will begin to bring out the recessive Angus traits, such as dwarfism other than chondrodysplasia. Recent years have yielded numerous "unidentified" deformed calves that are not chondro calves. These deformed calves are treated as if they are new types of deformity, but in fact, they resemble calves that are known to crop up in the outcrossing breeds.

I suggest you do a search for "deformed Angus calves" to discover the wide range of deformities that are possible. I won't post pictures here because it would be in poor taste to show and I don't have rights to the pictures.

I have an aquaintance who keeps only short legged chondro carrying Dexters. He lets them breed freely. He selects from the best shorties to keep and sells every long legged calf. He says that about 10% of the births are bulldog calves. I have a friend who keeps pure Angus cows and uses the best "flesh gaining" bulls as sires. She loses about 20% of her calves every year, and thinks that is acceptable. She is an expert at handling difficult births.

[Donlin Stud]

Nov 25, 2014 19:55:34 GMT genebo said:

I have an aquaintance who keeps only short legged chondro carrying Dexters. He lets them breed freely. He selects from the best shorties to keep and sells every long legged calf. He says that about 10% of the births are bulldog calves.

 YAY a traditional Dexter breeder !!!!!!!   

[cascade]

The pictures I LINKED TO above are all fine AI examples of both traditional and polled non-chondro, non-dwarfs that don't have lethal genes. They CAN be compared with each other in size and shape, as the original poster requested.

Some of the pictures posted by others above, are fine examples of Chondro dwarfs but their heights and photos are irrelevant to this discussion because they aren't comparable to normal cattle due to their malformed cartilage and malformed bone from the defective Chondro gene. Perhaps the poster of those pictures can tell us which ones above are Chondro-dwarfs and with ones are normal without the lethal gene.

Looking at the AI listings (and ignoring chondro-dwarfs for this comparison),  you can see that there are both larger and smaller examples in both traditional horned dexters and polled dexters.  Some of the largest examples are traditional horned bulls.

[cascade]

Saltaire Platinum (non-chondro, true short) was 42" at 3 years of age as listed in the AI catalog.

He's about 50% Woodmagic breeding and it shows in his naturally shorter legs (non chondro, non-dwarf, no lethal genes)

Here's a photo of Saltaire Platinum in his youth, from his AI listing 

[jamshundred]

So there you have it, and it's apparently going to soon be published in the Dexter Society Bulletin. What will polled breeders say about that if it gets out in wider circulation?

Hans,

The article does not mention Saltaire Platinum, but several other Dexters, one very important to the American herd.  The problem is. . . .  .I don't think the science is there yet to support undocumented information.  The information on Saltaire Platinum IS documented in the herd books.  

I have been fighting to get the truth out about Saltaire Platinum for more than a decade.  Finally it dribbles out in little whispers when it should be screamed . . . because almost an entire breed has been wiped out with uncontrolled outcrossing that is NOT a rumor but recorded in the records!    I am especially disgusted with US breeders who keep using the excuse of the Dexter Cattle Society ( which promoted and encouraged outcrossing) as an excuse for certain members in America to take unfair advantage and competition with traditional breeders in a country and herd where NO outcrossing has ever been allowed.    DCS had so many beef breeds upgraded into their national herd. . . what did THEY care if there were horns or not. . . thus they approved polled.   The US herd didn't even permit outcrossing in a herd very small in numbers and then to bring in a dominant gene from such massive outcrossing!    

  More on this later.

And more on this thread as well !

[cascade]

This traditional red horned cow has Saltaire Platinum on her pedigree 17 times
She's a normal true-short, 37" at 2 years, with NO lethal genes, No Chondro genes, no dwarfism
She has two heterozygous polled parents.
She's also a "Traditional Red".. she has "Wee Gaelic Ms. Fermoy" on her pedigree 7 times.




PS.  All dexters have tons of non-dexters in their distant pedigrees... the only thing that keeps dexters looking/behaving like dexters is continued breeding for small, hardy, long-lived, productive, friendly, dual-purpose animals.  Continued selection is critical, distant pedigrees are not important. 

[jamshundred]

Slight misconception or mis-speak in the previous post.  There are NO. . . . .  .NADA. . . . . . . . "traditional" Dexters in America with Saltaire Platinum in the pedigree ! !

PS. All dexters have tons of non-dexters in their distant pedigrees... the only thing that keeps dexters looking/behaving like dexters is continued breeding for small, hardy, long-lived, productive, friendly, dual-purpose animals. Continued selection is critical, distant pedigrees are not important.

You always neglect to mention that ALL cattle breeds have other breeds in their "distant" pedigrees.    ALL cattle breeds ! ! !
Once these cattle breeds were established. . . . .  . . and herd books authored. . .  .it was the absolute responsibility of breeders to maintain the integrity of those bloodlines. In a breed so unique and special and in such limited numbers as the Dexter breed. . . . . it should have been a given that the bloodlines of this breed be respected and protected. 

One of the reasons Guernsey cattle by large percentage still retain their A2/A2 status, ( the original status of all cattle), is that they have never been one of the breeds "adopted" for mass "improvement".   I note in the area where I live, more and more Guernsey ( and Jersey) cattle are being used in small dairy settings which sell their milk direct or to organic dairies.     SIDENOTE:  Two  weeks ago  I was in the grocery store to get a gallon of Horizon milk.  The shelves were all but bare.  Some small percent milk was still on the shelves.   Hanging above the glass doors was a sign which informed consumers that due to shortages in the ability to produce organic milk that consumers would continue to see shortages of the product in the stores.


Judy

[cascade]

I thought that "traditional" dexters were defined as small, horned, friendly, healthy, hardy, shaggy-in-winter, dual-purpose, long-lived animals with a certain look to them. I believe the horned Saltaire Platinum descendant girl above is all of that and she's also A2/A2. Perhaps your definition of "Traditional" is purely a paper-definition and not a real definition with real physical features. Perhaps you should title yours as "All-American(on paper)-since-1920-Horned-Dexters" The traditional horned girl I posted is NOT an "All-American(on paper)Since-1920-Horned Dexter" and I can live with that, since Dexters are a British breed.

The original poster at the top of this thread asked for photos of Saltaire Platinum and his descendents and asked for folks to point out any of their physical features that make them look strongly "non-dexter".... He presumably asked for this because folks keep saying how Saltaire Platinum is changing the face of dexters. It turns out that there are no differences except for the polled gene, and many Saltaire Platinum descendants don't even have a polled gene as the above pictured cow proves.

PS. You traditionalists should be HAPPY that the polled gene is DOMINANT, because that allows the horned gene to hide for safe keeping. If the polled gene was recessive, then polled herds would need to completely wipe out the horned gene to get polled animals. Because I'm working on improving many things at the same time, and I'm not simply breeding for polled, I'll occasionally use a hetero-polled bull (because of his other nice features) and I'll get an occasional horned calf. I don't de-horn them and instead, I find a home that prefers horns. I've had a couple of people offer to buy the above horned girl, but I want to hang onto her for a while. I wouldn't want an entire herd of horns, but one or two is sorta special.

[kwin]

Nov 30, 2014 2:44:05 GMT cascade said:

The original poster at the top of this thread asked for photos of Saltaire Platinum and his descendents and asked for folks to point out any of their physical features that make them look strongly "non-dexter".... He presumably asked for this because folks keep saying how Saltaire Platinum is changing the face of dexters.

For the most part, yes .

In addition to the other qualities I look for when choosing which animals will be breeders and which will be beef, I'd like to know what phenotype differences to look for in SP descendants that make them not look like Dexters. I've already gathered from other posts that larger size could be an issue. What ELSE is different that I could watch for?? Ear size, head shape, hair type, eye shape, feet, back, angle of the hip...etc. I want specific phenotype differences that some SP descendants may carry...and be specific

I've looked at the images online of the historical Dexters, and I've compared all the images above...my eye is not trained well enough to make out any differences, especially when comparing pictures of animals in different poses, from different angles, from different distances, carriers vs non carriers, & in different states of grooming. So, please tell me what I am looking at/for...and not necessarily using the animals above as references since I don't want to step on anyone's toes.

[cascade]

Nov 30, 2014 19:59:18 GMT kwin said:

Saltaire Platinum was a true-small 42" (non-chondro) 50% Woodmagic bull and he has thrown many small descendents. Size is NOT an issue with Saltaire Platinum.  BUT, consider that the folks who utilized Saltaire Platinum semen decades ago, bred him on various sized cows  (most of them were very good quality cows) from various traditional American lines. Size IS an issue in many traditional dexter lines, primarily because some folks have used the chondro-gene to mask the true-height genetics of some very large animals instead of breeding for true-small dexters.  Those who used Saltaire Platinum on some larger cows from larger lines simply introduced the polled gene into those larger lines. But those who used Saltaire Platinum on average or smaller sized cows introduced the polled gene into smaller lines.  Look at all the other animals on your pedigree if you want to know where the features of your animal came from.

Any features being attributed to Saltaire Platinum are more likely to have come from the various lines he was originally introduced to.   When someone says they have a "Saltaire Platinum" animal, but the animal is only 6% Saltaire Platinum, then the animal is NOT a "Saltaire Platinum line", but is 94% from all those other animals.  There are very few animals (if any) that have more than 50% Saltaire Platinum genetics and most have far less than 25%.   Years ago I started with one of the most concentrated Platinum animals available (he was only a little more than 25% SP) but most of the girls I started with had no Saltaire Platinum at all, so that immediately reduced my herd to about 15% Saltaire Platinum and that means they are 85% NON-Saltaire Platinum.    

People are suffering from "famous bull syndrome"... They look at an animal's pedigree and see a famous bull on it generations ago and they attribute whatever features that animal has to that distant "famous bull" even if that "famous bull" is only 6% or 12% of the pedigree.   It's VERY challenging to hang onto any features of a famous bull when he's only 6% or 12% of the pedigree, and if you do focus on one feature like "polledness" it detracts from bringing any other traits along with it.  





 .    

[lakeportfarms]

Kirk, you have it backwards. You're claiming that SP pulled DOWN sizes of Dexters?...lol    You always seem to dodge the proof that SP has recorded outcrossings in his pedigree, with Angus being one of the more prominent.  Last I checked Angus were supposed to be larger than Dexters, so it makes sense that some of that size would be passed on doesn't it?  Like it or not, polled is not the only trait that is going to be transmitted to the progeny.  For many years in the U.S., Dexters were selected for a host of traits, one of the most prominent being small size, the other being dual purpose characteristics.  With the introduction of SP, size and dual purpose was probably the least of the concerns of breeders, and polled and red or carries red became the two prominent (and probably only) characteristics that were selected for.  It is very unlikely there was a polled bull or cow intentionally culled for many years.

Since you insist on posting yearling photos of bulls and heifers as examples of SP small genetics, I guess I'll have to pick some of SP's direct fully grown descendants off of the ADCA site for a more representative example.  Rather than taken from a stepladder or camera held up high to change the perspective and apparent size, these are more representative shots, including one with people standing nearby. 

One of the first US bulls out of SP, with many descendants:

dextercattle.org/pedigreedb/photo1/6608.jpg

Another directly out of SP, with many descendants:

dextercattle.org/pedigreedb/photo1/13213.jpg

Here is another bull:

tse4.mm.bing/th?id=HN.608013287540917337&pid=1.7

OOPS, my bad, that was actually a red Angus bull.

A cow directly out of SP.  She's quite nice and full bodied, but definitely not small or "true short"!

dextercattle.org/pedigreedb/photo1/9531.jpg

Here is another, again a nice cow, but not small or "true short"!

dextercattle.org/pedigreedb/photo1/9962.jpg

Now for some examples of traditional Dexters (thanks to Judy for posting some of these and I'm sure she wouldn't mind my sharing them):

I doubt this is a chondro carrier:

fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/s480x480/10411196_1438711619729595_4895414481569879870_n.jpg?oh=82ccc6a3b533eba86f6e91552de737dd&oe=5519DD57&__gda__=1427369212_9ee1fba1039de9bc3e0a2d8ec23c001d

I doubt this girl is a carrier either:

fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/q83/s720x720/10435913_1501203296813760_8010112930901150273_n.jpg?oh=c2a3b14d56194050e748dee3935ee9d3&oe=5514B4E0&__gda__=1427616279_273daea021d388031e372ccea1fc6421

Probably my favorite cow of all, almost certainly a chondro carrier:

scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10464234_1435767883357302_7915401004326517201_n.jpg?oh=2b068f7904b76733a473d4e0170a12ce&oe=5520467D

I love this little bull, almost certainly a carrier:

scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/10445461_1435568433377247_4041459714997554178_n.jpg?oh=f107fe54062b20ef44dedc0fd4d41514&oe=550DDF26

[cascade]

100% Documented Facts: 

1. The Lethal Chondrodysplasia Defect Gene causes cartilage and bone malformation which dwarfs infected animals, masking their true taller size genetics, so for purposes of genetic height comparisons, carriers of the lethal chondro gene should be ignored.  

2. Saltaire Platinum was a true-short 42" normal registered purebred Dexter bull with 50% Woodmagic genetics and NO lethal genes.

3. There are four TALL bulls in the ADCA Online AI directory that are 48" tall or taller....  ALL of these four tallest dexter AI bulls are traditional horned bulls.  NONE of those four 48"+ tall AI bulls have Saltaire Platinum in their backgrounds.

4. There are ten shorter NORMAL bulls (with no lethal genes) in the ADCA online AI directory that are UNDER 44" tall .... Seven of these shortest bulls have Saltaire Platinum on their pedigrees, only three have no Saltaire Platinum.

Summary:
100% of the tallest Dexter AI bulls (48"+) are traditional horned dexters with NO Saltaire Platinum on their pedigrees.
70% of the shortest (non-lethal gene carrying) Dexter AI Bulls (UNDER 44") are polled dexters WITH Saltaire Platinum on their pedigrees.

Conclusion:
At 42" tall, Saltaire Platinum has tended to bring DOWN the true size of Dexters.  But on many of today's pedigrees, the true-short Saltaire Platinum has been watered down and he is only 6% or 12% of the pedigree with many other TALLER traditional horned animals on the pedigree.  Any taller descendants of Saltaire Platinum are the result of those 90% other taller genetics on the pedigree, NOT from the 42" tall Saltaire Platinum.

Ongoing selection away from taller animals (and away from the chondro-gene that hides the taller genetics), is the ONLY way to keep the Dexter Breed as a truly compact breed.



 

[lakeportfarms]

You continue to cherry pick your "100% Documented facts"...look at the ages that many of the bulls were measured at. I don't consider a couple of the polled AI bulls at 22 MONTHS of age or so to be full grown as the 7 or 9 year old traditional bull is. Let's face it, when you have nearly identical pedigrees on the polled bulls offered, how exactly do you set your bull apart from the others, especially when there is a height and size issue with the polled lines? You measure at a young age and advertise the smaller height to attract customers. Furthermore, the height measurements are only as good as the person taking them. Our bulls are already small, so I have no reason to measure them at a young age, or underestimate our heights. I have a 36" tall traditional bull at 6 years, for example, and a 34" tall bull who has his third birthday tomorrow. Why would I say either one is shorter than they are, because at some point in time you've gotten too short haven't you?

I'll put more faith in the numbers if the AI bulls are officially measured by an independent third party, and at the same age. For mine, I put them on a concrete floor with a self leveling laser on a tripod, crank the laser up (or in the case of our bulls, down) to the top of the hip, and then I can at my leisure put a tape measure on the laser line and take the measurement. I don't have to worry about holding it level, having a bull moving around while I'm trying to measure them, etc...VERY accurate when done this way.

That will never happen, so it's buyer beware I guess!

[cascade]

There is no cherry picking of facts. EVERY AI bull was included in the count (except for those with lethal defect dwarfing Chondro genes that malform the bone and cartilage and mask the larger genetics that the animal carries).

Count them yourself and verify the facts for yourself:

www.dextercattle.org/adca/adca_ai_bulls.html

There are four TALL bulls in the ADCA Online AI directory that are 48" tall or taller.... ALL of these four tallest dexter AI bulls are traditional horned bulls. NONE of those four 48"+ tall AI bulls have Saltaire Platinum in their backgrounds.

There are ten shorter NORMAL bulls (with no lethal dwarfing chondro genes) in the ADCA online AI directory that are UNDER 44" tall .... Seven of these shortest bulls have Saltaire Platinum on their pedigrees, only three have no Saltaire Platinum.

Summary:
100% of the tallest Dexter AI bulls (48"+) are traditional horned dexters with NO Saltaire Platinum on their pedigrees.
70% of the shortest (non-lethal gene carrying) Dexter AI Bulls (UNDER 44") are polled dexters WITH Saltaire Platinum on their pedigrees.

Conclusion:
At 42" tall and with tons of Woodmagic genetics, Saltaire Platinum has tended to bring DOWN the true size of Dexters. But on many of today's pedigrees, the true-short Saltaire Platinum has been watered down and he is only 6% or 12% of the pedigree with many other TALLER traditional horned animals on the pedigree. Any taller descendants of Saltaire Platinum are the result of those 90% other taller genetics on the pedigree, NOT from the 42" tall Saltaire Platinum that is 50% Woodmagic.

The Woodmagic herd was famous for selecting for true-breeding, true shorts with truly short genetics, while many other breeders created fake-shorts using the lethal chondro dwarfing defect gene (masking the true tall genetics of many animals).

Ongoing selection away from taller animals (and away from the chondro-gene that hides the taller genetics), is the ONLY way to keep the Dexter Breed as a truly compact breed.

PS. If you're accusing owners of AI bulls of cheating on heights, then are you saying that those 4 tallest bulls that are all traditional horned bulls might be even 50 inches? or 52 inches? I personally trust the owners for giving us accurate measures.

[Deleted]

kirk,
you said
"PS. You traditionalists should be HAPPY that the polled gene is DOMINANT, because that allows the horned gene to hide for safe keeping. If the polled gene was recessive, then polled herds would need to completely wipe out the horned gene to get polled animals."
Reality as a Legacy breeder I could care less if animals that have platinum in their pedigree end up with horns or not. The are still not equal.

Kwin,
I think the reason you are not getting the answers you were looking for is it is very hard to put into words the differences in looks. Size is the easiest to put into words. I have seen polled dexters that look nothing at all like a dexter. I have also seen polled dexters that look very dexterish. I have never seen a Legacy/traditional dexter that I would look at and say that cant be a dexter.

Even though I am a legacy breeder I do have 3 that are that have platinum. A grandmother,mother, and her newest daughter. All bull calfs from them are automatically steered. I keep the hiefers because I am still growing and need more animals.
 Here is the middle one with her daughter. At 2and a half she is the tallest girl we have. You can see her newborn calf is also likely going to be tall. Her mother has less platinum in her and is much more dexter looking. The one in the picture with the most platinum is also the most pushy one we have.
Her mother despite being smaller than her consistently has larger calves despite being breed to our Legacy bull who has small calves with all of our other cows.

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one of our Legacy cows for comparison.

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[kwin]

Thanks, dexterfarm

So, comparing just your two girls I am seeing a more refined head and cleaner neck on the "traditional" girl.

I can't say that every SP daughter I've seen has had the same look, but it's a start

[lakeportfarms]

Thanks Mike, you're correct, without photos it's hard to point things out. Photos can also hide or show certain things as well, so looking at them in person is the best way. And you're correct also that some can look Dexter like, and others in no way resemble the traditional or Legacy Dexter appearance. Sorry about all this Kwin, when I have a chance I will try to get our heavily SP cow next to a traditional Dexter or Dexter cows that have actual calves on the ground (not yearlings) of identical age (within a few months anyway), so you can compare side by side. Barring that, I'll take photos of each individually that are as identical as I can. I'll then point out some of the differences, although you seem to have a pretty good eye from seeing Mike's photos above. Both are fed and handled identically, and are completely grass fed. Of course even with cows out of nearly identical genetics it's possible to see a variation in their size and overall appearance. The photo in the post above that I posted of the two bulls are out of nearly identical genetics, other than the sires and dams are reversed. Our little bull is out of our bull Mike, and Mike is the grandsire of the other larger bull. And the sire of their larger bull, Ned, is the grandfather of our little bull on the dam's side. Ours are completely grass fed, and they feed grain, so there are some differences there as I mentioned above.

Kirk, as to you. Again you omit facts to suit your narrative. The measurements of most all of the "long legged" polled bulls are taken at a much younger age. How do you compare a 22 month old bull to a 7 or 9 year old bull? Even at 3 years, the bull has not fully grown. Either you don't understand that, or you are deliberately trying to mislead. Which is it?

[cascade]

Dec 2, 2014 11:50:21 GMT lakeportfarms said:

The measurements of most all of the "long legged" polled bulls are taken at a much younger age. How do you compare a 22 month old bull to a 7 or 9 year old bull? Even at 3 years, the bull has not fully grown. Either you don't understand that, or you are deliberately trying to mislead. Which is it?

We're comparing the NON-CHONDRO Saltaire Platinum to  NON-CHONDRO Traditional Horned animals....  We don't care about Chondro's in size comparisons because Chondro's suffer from a bone and cartilage birth defect from a lethal gene that doesn't allow them to grow to their true genetic size.

Saltaire Platinum (with LOTS of Woodmagic in him and NO Chondrodsyplasia) was 42" at 3 years of age

The four largest bulls in the AI catalog at 48"+ are all traditional horned dexters with NO Saltaire Platinum
Two of those 48"+ horned bulls were measured at 3 and 4 years  (6 inches taller than Saltaire Platinum at the same age)
The other two of those 48"+ traditional horned bulls do not say how old they were at the time of measure.

People are suffering from famous bull syndrome.
You have animals that are 6% or 12% of that famous bull and you look at his descendants and attribute their features to that famous bull, ignoring the hundreds of other animals on the pedigree, most of which had much taller genetics than Saltaire Platinum.
 
One of the most pure Saltaire Platinum descendants is AI Bull Hillview Redwing.... he's 50% Saltaire Platinum... Redwing was 44" at 5 years of age, but even at 50% Saltaire Platinum, he still has 50% of his genes from elsewhere.



As far as look goes, YES, of course polled animals have a different shape of head than horned animals.   That shouldn't surprise anyone.