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Post by cascade on Dec 10, 2014 3:45:12 GMT
1. Grading-up, starting with a breed that's closely related to dexters, and using a pure Dexter bull over and over and over and over and over, and selecting for traits that are the most "Dexter-like" does indeed create dexters that are just as "pure" as any typical dexter, maybe even MORE pure, in the hands of a skilled breeder. Huh?? Set the paper pedigrees aside for a minute. Purity can also mean that an animal is pure in breed traits. Come up with a list of traits that make a Dexter the MOST pure "Dexter" possible... For you, perhaps it's a VERY friendly, fun personality, short, black, horned, with no white markings except a little on a very nice udder. Now let's say you live in a place where you can't import dexters, but you CAN import dexter semen. Let's say you have 40 Kerry-mix cows (but no dexters). Let's say you find the most perfect dexter bull semen that matches your description of what a perfect pure dexter would look and act like. You use that semen on your Kerry mix cows and get a bunch of 50% dexter heifers some of which are already very dexter looking You use that same semen again on your BEST 50% dexter cows that look a lot like a dexters and get some 75% dexter cows that are near perfect. You use that same semen again on your BEST 75% dexter cows and get a couple of perfect 87.5% Dexters that look and act 100% pure Again you use superstar dexter semen again on your 87.5% dexter and get a statistically pure 93.75% Dexter that is really as 100% pure as most dexters Each generation, you are using the BEST dexter bull semen possible and you are selecting heifers that meet your vision of the perfect pure dexter. You have created some dexters that on paper are only 93.75% pure, but because you have been selecting the best pure dexter traits each generation and eliminating any non-dexter traits, you've created the perfect dexter specimens. That paper 93.75% purity is just on paper. The animal would be 93.75% pure if you had just randomly selected offspring, but because you only selected the MOST dexter-looking/acting heifers each generation you increased the purity in reality. Because your most recent 93.75% dexter cows have been selected for 100% pure dexter traits, they are amazing specimens. When compared to the typical "pure" Dexters from backyard breeders, your cow is more pure in "Dexterness" than many of those typical "pure" cows that may look 100% pure on paper. |
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Post by wvdexters on Dec 10, 2014 16:54:19 GMT
Set the paper pedigrees aside for a minute. Purity can also mean that an animal is pure in breed traits. Come up with a list of traits that make a Dexter the MOST pure "Dexter" possible... For you, perhaps it's a VERY friendly, fun personality, short, black, horned, with no white markings except a little on a very nice udder. Now let's say you live in a place where you can't import dexters, but you CAN import dexter semen. Let's say you have 40 Kerry-mix cows (but no dexters). Let's say you find the most perfect dexter bull semen that matches your description of what a perfect pure dexter would look and act like. You use that semen on your Kerry mix cows and get a bunch of 50% dexter heifers some of which are already very dexter looking You use that same semen again on your BEST 50% dexter cows that look a lot like a dexters and get some 75% dexter cows that are near perfect. You use that same semen again on your BEST 75% dexter cows and get a couple of perfect 87.5% Dexters that look and act 100% pure Again you use superstar dexter semen again on your 87.5% dexter and get a statistically pure 93.75% Dexter that is really as 100% pure as most dexters Each generation, you are using the BEST dexter bull semen possible and you are selecting heifers that meet your vision of the perfect pure dexter. You have created some dexters that on paper are only 93.75% pure, but because you have been selecting the best pure dexter traits each generation and eliminating any non-dexter traits, you've created the perfect dexter specimens. That paper 93.75% purity is just on paper. The animal would be 93.75% pure if you had just randomly selected offspring, but because you only selected the MOST dexter-looking/acting heifers each generation you increased the purity in reality. Because your most recent 93.75% dexter cows have been selected for 100% pure dexter traits, they are amazing specimens. When compared to the typical "pure" Dexters from backyard breeders, your cow is more pure in "Dexterness" than many of those typical "pure" cows that may look 100% pure on paper. When I first read this "statement" I honestly thought to myself; "Well, we have finally discovered the problem here, Kirk doesn't understand what "Registered Cattle" are. Honestly, I don't want to be less than kind here, but there is no such thing as "setting the pedigrees aside" when we are discussing Registered Cattle. You just can't have the one without the other.... It's amazing to me that you could ever think such a thing let alone print it for all to see. I'm at a loss, completely. But then I thought again, remembering your many postings of the past. All those hours you must have spent ... copying and pasting, post after post, proving to all of us that your animals (polled, Platinum) were just as "pure" as those from traditional breeding (Platinum free) because the "polled gene" was NOT a product of outcrossing but was instead a "spontaneous genetic condition/defect" naturally occurring within our own breed. (IN A VERY SCIENTIFIC WAY, of course.) And then I realized ... This is not what you thought, this is not the situation you expected to find yourself in, the truth you fought so hard against and denied for so long is coming out now ... for all to see. ---- So, NO Kirk. The animals created in the narrative you've described for us are simply "grade animals" at best, to be more correct "cross breeds". I am sorry, but I do believe that you also realize that this is indeed the truth. .... I do urge you, to stop with all this, and save what little credibility you have left. |
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Post by genebo on Dec 10, 2014 17:27:23 GMT
Purity can also mean Pure Ignorance.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Dec 10, 2014 19:19:58 GMT
I think this attitude is more pervasive than many believe. One of the reasons I put more trust on the preservationist side of the Dexter breed.
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Post by cascade on Dec 10, 2014 21:56:56 GMT
1. I said "Set the pedigree aside FOR A MINUTE"
2. Then Judge the animal on its purity of dexter traits
3. Then pick up the papers again to see if the animal is accepted by the registry as being purebred.
If Dexters aren't registered, they aren't even worth considering in my opinion. We have ZERO un-registrable animals on our farm except for the farm cats.
The largest Dexter registries don't make any distinction in levels of PUREBRED dexters. Once an animal reaches the status of purebred, there aren't degrees of purebred-ness. They are either purebred, or not.
All dexters have non-dexters in their distant backgrounds. The registries have rules to be used to accept animals into their registries as purebred. The registries state "Animals met the standard being 'purebred' at the time of registration". Once an animal is accepted into a registry as a purebred, its a done deal. Registries aren't perfect, but they do a pretty good job.
My point is that a REGISTERED purebred dexter (regardless of exact paper purity) that meets quality dexter traits, is better than another registered purebred dexter that does NOT meet those quality dexter traits.
The ONLY way to keep purebred dexters pure in traits, is selecting for those traits, generation after generation. You could start with Legacy dexters and can end up with 50" tall, half-white, mean "Legacy" dexters down the road if you aren't making good selection decisions, generation after generation.
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Post by Donlin Stud on Dec 10, 2014 22:38:45 GMT
I have to agree with Cascade on this one only because it is the exact situation we as an Australian stud are faced with.
While the Australian grade up program centred on the maternal bloodline only – one has to remember that a 5th generation bull is deemed a ‘pure’ Dexter and qualifies for registration.
Now when this same bull is then used over 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation graded up females…………………we don’t even come close to the 93.75% potential.
Scary isn’t it what us aussies have done to such an ancient breed even though I do completely understand why it was / is done.
So in a sense we do have to put aside the pedigree papers for just a second and look at the physical attributes of each single Dexter and then select based on our limited knowledge, those Dexters who do more closely resemble that of the ancient Dexter breed. Then bring the pedigrees back for further assessment.
But I also have to say, that at least we know the history of our Dexters thanks not only to well-kept records but the requirement from way back that calves had to be DNA PV for registration.
We cant and don’t hide behind false information, twisted for a purpose – even though I am sure many aussie breeders are under the same illusion that Polled entered the Dexter breed by a “well-timed mutation” and this was the point of the conversation – know what it is you as a Dexter breeder truly have in your herd, then deal and work with that.
Don’t make false statements to disguise or bury the truth because at the end of the day, it will the Dexter breed who will suffer for it.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Dec 11, 2014 0:26:44 GMT
The fact is, if there is malpractice being used by Dexter breeders today it is generally going to be with those who breed for polled, and red, with A2/A2 close behind. All you have to do is look on Craigslist, the ADCA site including the pedigree pages, Facebook, or the various breeder websites to see that there are few, if any, polled red bulls being steered today unless the seller has exhausted all their efforts to find a purchaser. Polled cows aren't culled unless they have some type of injury, die of illness, or from calving. It is aggravated by the numbers of newbies who have started raising Dexters in the past few years, who have paid high prices for their initial breeding stock because it was polled, and think that they need to recoup their investment, and have no pace.
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Post by genebo on Dec 11, 2014 0:52:57 GMT
A woman called me one night to offere to sell me her two Dexter cows. She was desperate. She told me she was going through a rough divorce and needed the money back that she had spent on the Dexters. She began crying, and told me she would sell them to me for what she had paid for them when they were just calves. She also told me they were the best Dexters in the world, polled and red.
Right away I knew I wouldn't buy them, but I had to ask how much she had paid for them.
She said she had bought them from the best breeder in the country, who let her have them for $4500 each.
It was heartbreaking to have to tell her that I wouldn't buy them.
It was more heartbreaking to discover just how badly she had been taken in.
Now you know what the stakes are that the bashers of Traditional Dexters are playing for. In order to maintain their greedy gouging of newbies, it behooves them to put down the real Dexters.
That's one of the reasons I have no pace with those who ply this tactic.
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Post by Donlin Stud on Dec 11, 2014 1:21:35 GMT
Hi Lakeports - totally agree with you. ( I am going to have to direct my responses to names)
Genebo - oh that poor woman. That's a lot of money.
And I just had a squizz at some Aussie cattle sale yards and it's true - ........... Good grief no wonder the nonsense, Chinese whisper re Polled appearing in the breed etc.
:0
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Post by cascade on Dec 11, 2014 1:27:56 GMT
I have to agree with Cascade on this one only because it is the exact situation we as an Australian stud are faced with. While the Australian grade up program centred on the maternal bloodline only – one has to remember that a 5th generation bull is deemed a ‘pure’ Dexter and qualifies for registration. Now when this same bull is then used over 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation graded up females…………………we don’t even come close to the 93.75% potential. Scary isn’t it what us aussies have done to such an ancient breed even though I do completely understand why it was / is done. So in a sense we do have to put aside the pedigree papers for just a second and look at the physical attributes of each single Dexter and then select based on our limited knowledge, those Dexters who do more closely resemble that of the ancient Dexter breed. Then bring the pedigrees back for further assessment. But I also have to say, that at least we know the history of our Dexters thanks not only to well-kept records but the requirement from way back that calves had to be DNA PV for registration. We cant and don’t hide behind false information, twisted for a purpose – even though I am sure many aussie breeders are under the same illusion that Polled entered the Dexter breed by a “well-timed mutation” and this was the point of the conversation – know what it is you as a Dexter breeder truly have in your herd, then deal and work with that. Don’t make false statements to disguise or bury the truth because at the end of the day, it will the Dexter breed who will suffer for it. I do like the first part of your post and appreciate your understanding of breeding principles. But I also hope that you understand the science of genetics and understand that the "polled" gene is actually just a broken horn regulator gene. Copy errors (mutations) break these horn regulator genes fairly regularly (geneticists believe it happens 1 time in every 10,000 calves). There are all sorts of proven cases of fresh polled mutations in cattle. While there is TONS of proof that fresh mutations occur sporadically in cattle, I don't think anyone has PROVEN 100% for certain that Saltaire Platinum's ancestor could NOT POSSIBLY have been a fresh mutation. If you want to dispel what you believe is a myth, then do it by providing PROOF that the myth is wrong. I haven't seen that 100% certain proof yet (have you?)... I'd be happy to review that PROOF if someone will post it. Regardless, if the polled gene weren't already in American Dexters, I personally would have helped find an ethical and legal way to get it here to save thousands of calves from the TORTURE of physical de-horning which is being banned in some places. The ADCA allows imports of foreign bulls that meet certain purebred requirements and I believe that there are plenty of foreign POLLED Dexters that meet those requirements. PS. Even folks who believe they have "100% pure" dexters on paper cannot expect their dexters to have perfect traditional traits generation after generation, due to genetic drift. They must go through the same selection process that folks with "85% pure" dexters do. Selection against a set of criteria is critical if you want to "save" dexters. - |
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Post by genebo on Dec 11, 2014 19:45:39 GMT
Uc Davis administers the polled DNA test. To date, they have identified TWO different mutations in cattle that produce the polled condition. The Angus mutation (Pc) and the Friesian mutation (Pf).
American Dexters that are polled carry the Angus mutation, thanks to Platinum and his Angus family tree.
Genetic mutations follow a random pattern. The likelyhood that the same mutation could occur more than once in a species is so remote as to be inconceivable.
Here is an abstract from a paper presented by researchers at the University of Berkeley:
evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/IIIC1aRandom.shtml
If a new mutation should occur to the horned gene that affected cattle, it would not likely be exactly the same as any previous mutation. Practically impossible. A new mutation might actually make a bovine produce vastly different forms of horns, rather than none at all. Twisted horns, huge horns, fat horns, green horns, three horns, maybe even a single horn growing out of the middle of the forehead, unicorn style.
Judy has posted the genetic paper trail of the Angus ancestry of Platinum enough that it's amazing that there are still people around who have not read it. Time for a visit to Jamshundred.com
The genes in cattle do not work alone. They are controlled by other co-dependent genes, as that which produces dun color in Dexters, or sex-linked traits. Some are passed only through the maternal link. Some traits have no valid description of the process by which they are passed. The future will reveal these processes.
An animal has the complete genetic code in every cell of its body. During the animal's lifetime, it may undergo many mutations to some of its cells. The only way that can transfer to a new animal, so that every cell of its body contains the new mutation, is through the cells of reproduction. Each egg cell and each sperm cell contain exactly 1/2 of a complete genetic string of code. A mutation within those genetic strings will be replicated in the embryo that is formed.
A female's egg cells are present in her body for a long time. Some theories say that her lifetime supply of eggs is present at her birth. Yet only a fraction of her eggs will ever be ripened and become fertile. A mutation to a single one of her eggs, which is then successfully fertilized, is the only way she could contribute to that mutation being passed to one of her offspring. The trait that is governed by that mutation may be recessive, co-dominant or dominant. It may be dependent upon a separate gene to turn it on or off (like scurs). The odds are long against ANY mutation being passed on.
A male's sperm cells are produced, live a short life, then die. There are vast numbers of them available at a given time, but only one is responsible for passing along its half of the genetics to the embryo. My bull was sollected for AI. His one visit produced 327 straws,each containing 40 million sperm. That is over 13 billion sperm cells. If a mutation did exist in one of the genes, think about the odds of someone getting the straw that contained the single mutated gene and having it be the one sperm cell that fertilized the egg.
Just for fun, you mutation theory people, make a list of all the other mutations that you can identify in Dexters. Remember, it's a vital part of the mutation theory that mutations occur all the time.
Compare this method of creating a new form of polledness to the alternative method, outcrossing. When you breed an Angus cow to a Dexter bull, you can be assured that the cow's egg contains the polled gene, for which Angus are homozygous. The calf which results is guaranteed to be a heterozygous polled calf. 100%
No wonder that was the way that Platinum's polledness was developed. 100% versus .00000000000000000000000000000......1%
The exact same polled offspring are developed all the time. My friend and neighbor does it all the time. He uses a Dexter bull to breed upwards of 70 Angus cows to produce "Dangus" beef. The difference between him and those who foisted Platinum on us is that he wouldn't dare stoop to try to register any of his calves as Dexters. He has principles. He also has a love of the Dexters which serve him so well. He not only makes Dangus calves with a Dexter, he and his family drink only A2/A2 Dexter milk.
Darn, I gave away a clue to another mutation that can be seen in Dexters: A1 beta casein. So there is one to start your list.
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Post by legendrockranch on Dec 11, 2014 20:20:33 GMT
American Dexters that are polled carry the Angus mutation
To once again correct Genebo
The polled gene that Dexters carry is called "Celtic". On all reports that I have received through UD Davis it states either one or two copies of the Polled-Celtic molecular marker is present.
Taken off of the UC DAVIS website:
"Recently, candidate mutations associated with polled phenotype in European breeds of cattle were found. There are 2 independent origins of polled, one found in Holstein-Friesian and Jersey breeds (Pf), the other in many European breeds of Celtic origin (Pc) such as Angus, Blonde d’Aquitaine, Dexter, Limousin, Charolais, and Hereford, among others. Polledness is dominant; a polled animal can have one or two copies of the gene. All offspring of a bull with 2 copies of polled (homozygous) will be polled. Genetic testing is a cost-effective means to determine if a polled animal has 1 or 2 copies of the gene".
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Post by Donlin Stud on Dec 11, 2014 22:25:01 GMT
Hi Genebo I was wondering if the Polled DNA test could identify ‘where’ the mutation may have come from or if it was a “Dexter mutation” afterall. You are a wonderful source of info  Lengendrockranch you have answered the question I was to ask Genebo but now deleted it. And it isnt completely true what UCD have posted since both Jersey and Angus breeds were used in the Australian Grade-up program it would have to be that Australian Dexters would be returning both Pf and Pc. If American Dexters only return the Pc mutation – then it still supports what Genebo had said above. All you have pointed out is a play on words. The information relating to the Celtic-origin Pc Polled mutation does not rule out Platinum’s pedigree discrepancy nor does it rule out that he would have been solely responsible for introducing Polled (Pc) to a Heritage Horned breed especially in a country that has never supported a grade up program. What a can of worms would be opened if [some] American Dexters returned the Pf mutation………………………………..* ooooo how naughty of me. Putting away my can opener now * |
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Post by legendrockranch on Dec 11, 2014 23:07:18 GMT
Donna Genebo is making a statement that American Dexters that are polled carry the Angus mutation. No play on words he's just trying to be snarky.
There is no way to prove where the mutation came (as in breed of cattle) at this time. Just that there are two variances. The test which has only been around for a few years has been very helpful to the registry since sometime a new owner will register a dehorned animal as polled. Now they can know for sure.
Edited to ad an article you might enjoy reading: www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0093435
Please take note of this statement taken from the article. "Nevertheless there is evidence for the existence of hornless cattle until back to ancient times, as for example shown in several Old Egyptian tomb sceneries"
Who know whats lurking behind you animals.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Dec 12, 2014 1:50:27 GMT
Donna Genebo is making a statement that American Dexters that are polled carry the Angus mutation. No play on words he's just trying to be snarky.
There is no way to prove where the mutation came (as in breed of cattle) at this time. Just that there are two variances. The test which has only been around for a few years has been very helpful to the registry since sometime a new owner will register a dehorned animal as polled. Now they can know for sure.
Edited to ad an article you might enjoy reading: www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0093435
Please take note of this statement taken from the article. "Nevertheless there is evidence for the existence of hornless cattle until back to ancient times, as for example shown in several Old Egyptian tomb sceneries"
Who know whats lurking behind you animals.
And if you read past the first paragraph you'll find this: "The small size of the mapped haplotypes suggests that the polled mutation occurred a long time ago as stated by Allais-Bonnet et al. [3]." "As the indel variant is present in polled Scottish beef breeds like Angus and Galloway, it is very likely that the polled allele in beef and related dual-purpose breeds originates in these Scottish breeds and was introduced through crossbreeding to other breeds a long time ago." Unless you're a Dexter named Godstone Esmeralda. |
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Post by legendrockranch on Dec 12, 2014 2:15:20 GMT
Likely does not make it so. That is why I included the quote I did, which I will once again put up.
Please take note of this statement taken from the article.
"Nevertheless there is evidence for the existence of hornless cattle until back to ancient times, as for example shown in several Old Egyptian tomb sceneries"
Surely you're not saying in ancient times they were "Angus and Galloway"?
I do have other pictures of ancient polled cattle that are cave drawings taken off of a another site. If I can I will post them.
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Post by legendrockranch on Dec 12, 2014 2:21:18 GMT
"Some of the desert Neolithic rock art and later Egyptian tomb scenes reveal interesting clues to the development of cattle breeds after their initial introduction. The most ancient rock art depicts cattle with long horns, including a lyri-form and a type with horns pointed forward. However, short horned and polled cattle appear more frequently in later tomb scenes, with the polled being more common than the short-horned cattle. It would seem that the long-horned cattle (ngiw), on the basis of artistic representations, were the oldest domestic cattle bred in Egypt. They were used both in religious sacrifices and for their meat, and long horned castrated (oxen) appear to have been working animals of choice".
The picture of the rock art of polled cattle is not showing up, I'll keep trying though. As I said earlier "who knows what lucks in the back round of your cattle" Look at the history or man. |
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Post by cascade on Dec 12, 2014 2:52:15 GMT
We will never know for certain how the polled mutation arrived in Dexters.
It would be interesting to know, but it would make NO DIFFERENCE
From the recent article posted above:
"Since there is no need for self-defense in modern intensive cattle production, and new housing systems as free stalls with headlock barriers have been established, horns have become an undesired trait in beef and dairy cattle. To avoid the risk of injury to humans and animals, most of the cattle are dehorned at a young age. Due to animal welfare and economic reasons, efforts are taken to breed hornless (polled) cattle."
The polled gene is firmly established in the Dexter breed in every country that has Dexters. If we didn't already have the polled gene, we would have found an ethical and legal way to get it, for the benefit of the animals (and owners).
Smart folks know that ALL dexters have loads of non-dexters in their backgrounds.
Smart folks know that what makes dexters special is ongoing selection for their special traits.
Since "Friendly and Safer" are at the top of the list of key dexter traits, "polled" ADDS to that attraction and does NOT detract.
PS. Horns are lovely to look at in pictures, and it's nice that some breeders continue to select for them.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2014 15:44:07 GMT
it is interesting that their may have been polled cattle in ancient times. We really cant say for sure that they were not dehorning these cattle that are in the pictures. It does not change the fact that there are only 2 known mutations of the polled gene and the one that the dexters have is the same one that Angus have and we know it did not originate in the dexter. I dont know enough about the other breeds mentioned to know which was the one breed that introduced it to all the others. I know it was introduced to the Herefords.
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Post by genebo on Dec 12, 2014 16:39:01 GMT
I grew up in Arkansas in the 40's. The cattle breed that was dominant in that area was the Hereford. My uncle's herd were Herefords. He made a fair living off of his Herefords, but was anxious to increase his income. He decided to buy an Angus bull to breed his Hereford bulls. The talk back then was that the Angus crossbreeding would give a calf that had smaller bones. Therefore a better beef/bone ratio.
All of his calves were what is now called a "black baldy". They got their black color from the Angus and the white faces and Hereford color pattern from the Angus. As he kept some calves and they bred together, he began to find a red calf once in a while. When that happened, he quit keeping calves so all of his calves would be black.
Down the road was a man who did almost exactly the same thing, except that when he began getting red calves with white faces, he continued to breed them until he finally had an entire herd of red cattle with white faces.
Surely you have guessed by now that the calves also got another trait from the Angus. Yup, they were polled. Through selection, the man down the road developed his entire herd into polled red cattle with white faces. He wasn't the only cattle rancher to accomplish this. Others before him had already created a new registry for "Polled Herefords". He registered his herd with them and put up a huge sign over the entrance to his ranch. It proudly proclaimed that he was a breeder of "Polled Hereford" registered breeding stock.
My uncle was outraged by this. He knew as well as anybody that these cattle were not deserving to be called Herefords. Lots of other thinking breeders of Herefords raised an outcry. But it was no use. Money talks and ethics walks.
Today you will have to look hard to find any original type Herefords, with the horns still on. Some are raised to rent out to the movies. Some are raised by Hereford preservationists. But by-and-large, the outcrossing of Angus over Hereford destroyed the breed. Today, the polled descendants are simply called Hereford. The traditional type Hereford is a thing of the past.
We're supposed to learn from history, lest it repeat itself.
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Post by jamshundred on Dec 12, 2014 16:47:07 GMT
You can hypothesize that possiblity but there is no one in America who has used a PURE bull over and over and over and over to bring about your theory Kirk. They have used descendents of a GRADE bull. . . . over and over and over to change the phenotype of the Dexter breed and we do not know what traits we treasure have been lost in these breedings. Whatever the percentage. . . it is more than I wanted to see the breed lose
Judy
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Post by legendrockranch on Dec 12, 2014 17:04:09 GMT
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Post by cascade on Dec 12, 2014 17:57:41 GMT
You can hypothesize that possiblity but there is no one in America who has used a PURE bull over and over and over and over to bring about your theory Kirk. They have used descendents of a GRADE bull. . . . over and over and over to change the phenotype of the Dexter breed and we do not know what traits we treasure have been lost in these breedings. Whatever the percentage. . . it is more than I wanted to see the breed lose Judy Within REGISTERED purebred dexters, theoretic paper purity and trait purity are two different things. The most "pure legacy" of animals on paper, can have all sorts of non-breed traits, or just plain poor traits in reality. If you look around you can probably find some very tall "legacy" animals with too much white and poor behavior. There are also some very nice ones... But they all look the same on paper. A registered purebred "grade" animal that theoretically has 3% of some other breed in him on paper, can be VERY pure in dexter traits, and if he was selected well, he likely has NONE of that other breed's defining genes. I actually support your goal of saving dexters, but the BEST way to do it, is to use pictures and videos and such to educate breeders on the traditional traits they should be selecting for, generation after generation. Animals lose 50% of their genes in each breeding. Breeding Legacy x Legacy on paper, will NOT preserve legacy in reality. Because of genetic drift, you can be losing valuable dexter traits by simply breeding Paper Legacy x Paper Legacy. A better approach would be to use photographic and video evidence and other information (or personal visits) to rate an animal on their legacy phenotype. How about encouraging ALL breeders (including red-polled breeders, and grade breeder in other countries), to select for certain phenotype traits that you feel are important to Dexters. This is the ONLY way to preserve those traits in the long haul. Here's a nice little friendly true-short cow with Saltaire Platinum on her pedigree 17 times..... What traits seem to be "Non-Legacy" traits?  |
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Post by genebo on Dec 13, 2014 3:05:29 GMT
For a quick look at what calf weights the modern genetics produce, go to the dextercattle2 board and read post #8832, July 12, 2006.
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dextercattle2/conversations/messages/8832
A list of 8 calves is in the post, with weights ranging from 43 to 53 pounds.
Compare that to the Traditional calves of Hans, which are less than half these weights in some cases, or to my Traditional American Dexter calves, which almost always run from 27 to 35 pounds.
Based solely upon calf size, the Traditional Dexter wins again. Those outside genetics make for some BIG calves.
It's interesting to note that in the same post, the author said he used the DNA test to prove his bull was "homozygously" polled, 6 years before the test was available. That is the reason for declaring each of the calves to be polled.
It's fun to browse back through time, to see what today's experts were saying back then. One of todays outspoken ones used double talk to declare an animal as being "double polled", just because both parents were polled. I'll bet it was a shock to discover a horned calf in the herd, from two hornless parents. Hide that one behind the barn when visitors come.
Sometimes an education comes slowly, over a period of years. Sometimes it never comes.
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Post by wvdexters on Dec 13, 2014 3:34:02 GMT
Been gone for a few days; internet problems fixed, new modem installed; and Oh my we have been busy!
First and most importantly let me say - Donlin it was never my intention to include you or your animals in the comments I made to Kirk. I should have been more clear when I posted and it was clumsy of me not to. I have great respect for you and the work you are doing to "bring back the Dexters of old" in your country. Definitely a labor of love. Your situation is completely different than what we have here and Kirk is trying so hard to legitimize something that cannot be. We do not have, nor do we allow a grading up program in this country. Thank you so much for understanding the point I was trying to make.
Kirk "Purity of dexter traits" is an interesting term as is "dexterness" but I will try to work with them. I do think we are reaching a bit here though....
Purity of dexter traits - First off, I find fault with your statement: "Come up with a list of traits that make a Dexter the MOST pure "Dexter" possible...
For you, perhaps it's a VERY friendly, fun personality, short, black, horned, with no white markings except a little on a very nice udder. ...... FOR YOU?? .....There is no for you in this matter. The list of Dexter "traits" is not something for you or I or anyone else to simply "come up with". That job was done long ago, when the breed was created. Opinions, yours and mine are inconsequential.
Now, in discussing the narrative you wrote; it IS an interesting one. If you are saying that you can take a distinct breed of cattle and change it by bringing in outside genetics (your "perfect bull") and by line breeding him to cows of a distinct breed, each time selecting those heifers that most exhibit the new, sought after traits; and after many generations of this cross-breeding ending up with an animal that no longer resembles the original but has been "changed" into a new type of animal closely resembling and carrying many of the traits of that "perfect bull and his breed"; Sadly.........I would have to agree.
And thank you Donlin for bringing up the question of percentages when using (graded-up) bulls as sires in new up-grading programs. I have often thought about this situation too. It certainly does play a bit with the numbers being quoted and with the notion that genes are being diluted and bred out in each generation. A fact that is often overlooked when it is advantageous to do so.
As for "dexterness" - by the definitions you are giving here, most of the lowlines I'm seeing around have far more "dexterness" than many of the modern dexters I am seeing.
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Post by wvdexters on Dec 13, 2014 5:20:49 GMT
1. I said "Set the pedigree aside FOR A MINUTE" 2. Then Judge the animal on its purity of dexter traits 3. Then pick up the papers again to see if the animal is accepted by the registry as being purebred. If Dexters aren't registered, they aren't even worth considering in my opinion. We have ZERO un-registrable animals on our farm except for the farm cats. The largest Dexter registries don't make any distinction in levels of PUREBRED dexters. Once an animal reaches the status of purebred, there aren't degrees of purebred-ness. They are either purebred, or not. All dexters have non-dexters in their distant backgrounds. The registries have rules to be used to accept animals into their registries as purebred. The registries state "Animals met the standard being 'purebred' at the time of registration". Once an animal is accepted into a registry as a purebred, its a done deal. Registries aren't perfect, but they do a pretty good job. My point is that a REGISTERED purebred dexter (regardless of exact paper purity) that meets quality dexter traits, is better than another registered purebred dexter that does NOT meet those quality dexter traits. The ONLY way to keep purebred dexters pure in traits, is selecting for those traits, generation after generation. You could start with Legacy dexters and can end up with 50" tall, half-white, mean "Legacy" dexters down the road if you aren't making good selection decisions, generation after generation. I still am having a problem with setting a Registered Dexter's Pedigree aside since that is exactly what we are talking about here, but OK
I'm assuming that when you say "when an animal reaches the status of purebred, there aren't degrees of purebred-ness. They are either purebred or not" you are talking about those animals that are products of "up-grade programs" in foreign countries because this country does not have nor allow up-grade programs.
Are you really trying to legitimize out-crossed animals by stating that all Dexters have non-dexters in their distant background? If so, this is a very weak position to take. Of course, all breeds of cattle or any other animal for that matter have distant non-breed ancestors in their background, and our Dexters are no exception. The first foundation animals did not fall from the sky on the day they were placed into the herd book. They were alive and well and had parents, etc. But I think you realize this.
As for registries having rules that must be met. You are correct. But you fail to recognize that Platinum did NOT meet the requirements for registration. Not then and not now. He was and is a grade bull. His registration was done in error or something worse. Think for a moment. I ask you, what would be done today if it were discovered that one of our ADCA members falsely registered one of their animals (accidental or not). Should it be fixed, or left as is? What if the sire was not even Dexter but found to be Angus? Making the resulting bull calf actually a cross-breed? What if he was beautiful and rather dexterish? and collected for AI? Would you use him?
The only way to keep purebred Dexters pure in traits is to select those Registered Dexters, free of up-graded/out-crossed genetics that fit the breed description and breed them generation after generation, culling those with any undesirable traits (beef steers and heifers) and holding true to the Breed Standards that have made this breed the unique and wonderful breed that we love. This is the job of all those who choose to call themselves a skilled breeder of any Registered Breed. And Kirk, I have to say your personal views on "paper purity" concern me and sound far more like the "talk" I hear at the local auction house than that of a "premiere dexter breeder". And no, a dexter with out-crossed genetics registered or not is never better for the breed. Never!
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Post by wvdexters on Dec 13, 2014 6:01:20 GMT
I thought for sure that the "spontaneous genetic defect" theory was all through but ... still hanging in there. But you must remember the cow in question, Esmeralda was a cross-breed cow with polled ancestors, making her son Migh Poldark a cross-breed with polled ancestors. His son Platinum, Esmeralda's grandson was also a cross-breed bull with polled ancestors.
I guess you can continue to "hope" it was spontaneous but few would agree.
ex. My husband is a red-head. He comes from a long line of red-heads. Parents, grandparents, up through his family; lots of red hair. I guess he too could claim to have a spontaneous genetic defect. I mean without testing no-one could really be sure. Hmmm.
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Post by cascade on Dec 13, 2014 6:58:19 GMT
1. There is NO physical record of Esmeralda having polled ancestors according to Judy
2. All Dexters have tons of non-dexters in their backgrounds.
3. The American registry accepts dexters that have non-dexters in their distant backgrounds
4. The American registry accepts dexters that have grading-up in their backgrounds, with certain generational limitations subject to review.
5. The standard practice of most all registries is to either accept or reject animals at the time of the decision based on the information immediately available. Members have the right to immediately challenge those decisions in a timely manner. The boards' final decisions are final. You don't go back three decades and challenge. Saltaire Platinium was declared purebred and was accepted. That makes him 100% PUREBRED (and at 42" at 3 years of age, he fits the breed description better than the 4 largest horned traditional AI bulls at 48" plus).
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Post by lakeportfarms on Dec 13, 2014 11:36:56 GMT
This is what it boils down to:
The Dexter breed was established with a registry based on certain characteristics, the predominate ones being horns and small, dwarf status (full size cows on short legs). At that point in time it is fixed and is expected that future registered Dexters will come from that breeding stock of animals.
Outside the U.S. certain additions will be allowed provided that they are clearly identified as "appendix" or experimental animals. The US herdbook still does not allow appendix animals.
In the best case, Humans make mistakes (well, maybe not one of us here), or in the worse case, humans practice deception to bring in certain traits (i.e. polled) into the US herd, out of upgrade (crossed with other breeds) in order to bring in an AI bull, a major physical change to the breed, and not just in horns, but an overall appearance to the Dexter breed, now resembling commercial cattle in many cases.
We know Kirk for example, does not have dwarf Dexters, but a fairly large uniform in size herd (which I suspect from seeing photos of some of his adult cows is not as small as he claims they are).
On the other hand, we also have a large herd, however ours consists of all colors, traditional horned, red polled, dun, "true-short", dwarf chondro carriers. We also have a few Dexters that are at the top end or perhaps slightly exceed the breed guidelines. We have a 6 year old chondro bull, and a 6 year old non-chondro bull, both out of nice breeding but acquired from other farms, We have a 3 year old chondro bull, and a 3 year old non-chondro bull also out of nice breeding from our farm. Pretty much something for everybody, even Kirk.
Here is what we see when we have visitors, completely new to cattle, that have the opportunity to walk in with the cows and bulls, spend time with them, pet them, feed them treats, and scratch them under the chin:
They are nervous around the 6 (44") and 3 year old (42") non-chondro de-horned bulls. Even after I walk up and pat him on the back or scratch his chin, most will keep their distance from them.
Our 6 year old chondro bull (36") with horns initially is intimidating to them, until I scratch him on the chin, or pat him on the back to show how docile he is. I CAN coax the visitors up to scratch him on the chin. Out come the cameras, and soon the visitors have taken dozens of photos of each other standing next to the bull or scratching him.
After that experience, they are not nervous at all around the 3 year old chondro bull (33"). They wonder if he is for sale or do we have something that will grow to be like him. When we explain that it them requires them to have the cows that are a bit taller to avoid the 25% chance they will not have a viable calf, they are disappointed, but they accept that as a trade off that they will make in order to have the small bull. In other words, when given the choice, they are immediately attracted to the dwarf, not the "true short", Dexters. They like the large bodies on the short legs, period. To them, that is the Dexter that they have researched and have read about. We have had other visitors come to the farm, perhaps not being as knowledgeable, who have been to other farms (including polled only herds) and straight out ask us "Are you sure these are Dexters, they look so different"! Such has been the one-sided promotion of just this one type of Dexter.
Yes, the breed has been losing it's identity to newbies who don't know any better, and breeders who are more concerned with taking the easy path to selling what they have, pushing what they raise including disparaging the dwarf Dexter, the foundation of the breed, rather than spending time with the new person in educating them about the breed and and allowing them to select the type of Dexter that best fits their particular circumstances.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Dec 13, 2014 12:33:50 GMT
1. There is NO physical record of Esmeralda having polled ancestors according to Judy 2. All Dexters have tons of non-dexters in their backgrounds. 3. The American registry accepts dexters that have non-dexters in their distant backgrounds 4. The American registry accepts dexters that have grading-up in their backgrounds, with certain generational limitations subject to review. 5. The standard practice of most all registries is to either accept or reject animals at the time of the decision based on the information immediately available. Members have the right to immediately challenge those decisions in a timely manner. The boards' final decisions are final. You don't go back three decades and challenge. Saltaire Platinium was declared purebred and was accepted. That makes him 100% PUREBRED (and at 42" at 3 years of age, he fits the breed description better than the 4 largest horned traditional AI bulls at 48" plus). You keep going with your height comparisons, when the bulls were not measured at the same age. Since AI bulls are supposed to be of exceptional breeding quality, and have the ability to dramatically affect future generations, perhaps rather than accepting any bull where the owner is willing to pay to have the semen collected and stored, the ADCA should have a requirement that the bull cannot be collected until say, 7-9 years of age, with an official height measurement performed after he has FULLY grown and has proven his longevity, and good breeding qualities. That would disqualify all of your polled examples including Saltaire Platinum. How old did SP live to be, anyway? I would have thought being such an exceptional bull by your measures, he would have lived a long life of say 12 years or more, which I believe was your standard in another thread of how long a good bull should live. The rest of your points sounds like one a lawyer would make, which I understand was the threat if the ADCA did not accept SP into the ADCA registry, after initially declining entry. |
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